You know, I didn’t realize that wide-girthed weasels could survive for very long in their natural habitats. But apparently they can.
All of you know how virulently anti-catholic John Hagee is. I’ve listened to his broadcast on occasion and have heard him call them some pretty…uh… creative names.
But a couple or three weeks ago, the press brought this fact to the attention of the general public, the unsaved general public. According to Fox News he said something to the effect of:
Hagee, leader of a San Antonio megachurch, has referred to the Roman Catholic Church as “the great whore” and called it a “false cult system” and “the apostate church” — “apostate” means someone who has forsaken his religion.
This kind of language didn’t go over very well with the Catholics, the Democrats, or the Republicans. A firestorm ignited around McCain and, by extension, Hagee. Hagee had spoken his mind and got unexpectedly hammered by the press. I’ll be the portly preacher was a bit surprised by the whole thing.
After a month plus of constant complaints from the press, comparisons to Reverend J Wright, and other such experiences, Hagee apparently had a major epiphany (are there minor epiphanies?). Here’s a portion of the letter the rotund reverend wrote to the Catholic League:
“Out of a desire to advance greater unity among Catholics and Evangelicals in promoting the common good, I want to express my deep regret for any comments that Catholics have found hurtful. After engaging in constructive dialogue with Catholic friends and leaders, I now have an improved understanding of the Catholic Church, its relation to the Jewish faith, and the history of anti-Catholicism.” [WSJ]
Again these people prove they are not the equal of the Reformers. Here’s what Martin Luther said about the Catholic Church/pope:
If the pope were the head of the Christian Church, then the Church were a monster with two heads, seeing that St. Paul says that Christ is her head. The pope may well be, and is, the head of the false Church. Where the linnet is, there is also the cuckoo, for he thinks his song a thousand times better than the linnet’s. Even thus, the pope places himself in the Church, and so that his song may be heard, overcrows the Church. The cuckoo is good for something, in that its appearance gives tidings that summer is at hand; so the pope serves to show us that the last day of judgment approaches. There are many that think I am too fierce against popedom; on the contrary, I complain that I am, alas! too mild; I wish I could breathe out lightning against pope and popedom, and that every word were a thunderbolt. [Luther]
And I daresay he never apologized.
So then is Hagee saying Catholocism is as valid as Christianity? Is he saying that the two are compatible and that we should work together to make the world a better place? It seems to me he’s going to have a hard time explaining the flip-flop to his congregation. I mean, one minute the Catholic Church is just one step below the Antichrist, or at least in bed with him. And the next the church is an entity with which we should have greater unity.
Huh?! Greater unity? What exactly would this unity be based on? Sure, I as an individual can work with Catholics to get stuff done. I can hire them to work in the soup kitchen with me. But do you really think First Baptist Church of Dirtpoor Idaho should join forces with the Church of the Sacred Dirt Scratchers across the street to run a homeless shelter?
While I wouldn’t call the Catholic Church the “great whore,” let’s face it – Catholicism is not consistent with the Bible and people who follow its doctrines will die in their sins. Are the members horrible monsters who want to corrupt the world and make way for the antichrist? Certainly not. My brother and his wife are Catholic and they are nice people. All his children are Catholic. Are they little mini-Harlots? No! Are they Christians? Not from what I can tell, and certainly not as a result of what they believe. But they aren’t horned demons waiting to lure people to their doom either.
If Hagee believed what he said, he should stick with it. And if it makes McCain’s life more difficult, I’m not seeing that as a problem. I never did much like McCain anyway.
It is interesting to me how on one side a liberal, liberation theology preacher stands his ground and on the other side a conservative, fundamentalist apologizes. The irony of it all. Compromise coming from unexpected sources.
(MN: I suspect it’s because Hagee is more of a Funds and Mentalist than a fundamentalist. )
Hi, Have you all seen this clip of Hagee on YouTube, advertising his own book? He denies Jesus is the Messiah!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4560ww1D-8
Hagee showed plainly that he is a people pleaser by rejecting his previous stand. The bible does teach that the Great Whore is a religious system and all of the descriptions fit the Roman Catholic Church. I’m not talking about the people because there are some beautiful and faithful people who are Roman Catholics. The System is totally false and guess what? She is also the “Mother of all Harlots” meaning all of the denominations came forth from the Roman Catholic System also.
I believe just as Luther, Wesley, Calvin and all the others that the Pope is AntiChrist.
For Hagee, it’s never been about theological or ethical consistency–he’s been known to contradict himself on the same page of his books, let alone contradict things he said 10 years ago. For Hagee, it’s about gaining and keeping power and influence, whether leveraging relationships in Israel by raising millions of dollars for a secular state that persecutes Christians … endorsing political candidates who share his views on Israel and the war but who may otherwise be reprobate … performing the multimillion dollar wedding of two obviously unregenerate hucksters … pimping himself on TBN’s fleece-a-thons … inviting Paula White and other charlatans to speak at his church …
(MN: So we’re agreed. He should grace the pages of Pulpit-Pimps.org. )
If you are gonna quote Martin Luther why not list some of his quotes about Jews? Then maybe we could see how narrow minded and anti-semitic he was. Most of the doctrine you regard as sarcosanct was the result of Catholic (The one and only “True Church”) efforts. Most of the false doctrines that you rail against on this site are able to flourish because of the heresies first developed by Luther but latter embellished by others.
(MN: Because the issue wasn’t about his statements on Jews. It was about his view of the Catholic Church. If I do an article on Farakan, I might give a quote on what Luther said about Jews. )
It’s amazing how these TBN preachers can back-up on some or their hard hitting sermons. Jack Van Wimpy started a lot of this how wonderful the Catholic Church is. Then Paul Crouch joined in about how that John Paul the Pope was right in line with what the Bible was teaching. TBN even hosted a Catholic event back when slick Willie was our president, I think he got to kiss his ring thus saving lying Bill from hades.
Hey Sayeed, correct me if I’m wrong, but while Luther’s words against the Jews were extremely harsh, they were just words. Can you find a single Jew who was killed by Luther?? I thought not.
How many Jews do you think were murdered by the “True” Catholic church??. Hundreds of thousands. In fact, St Peter’s (where the Pope dwells) was financed in part by the murder of Jews and the confiscation of their property.
And of course, we could venture into the Crusades. Not bad enough for the Catholic church to expel the Jews from France and Germany and England and Spain (to name just a few), and confiscate their property like common thieves, there was the Catholic Crusades and the Catholic Inquisition where torture and murder and rape and pillaging of innocent Jews was the order of the day.
Did I mention that until the 1800s, the Pope was still forcing the Jews in Italy to live in the ghettos??
Please sir………tell your tale walking. To natter on about the WORDS of an old sick man about his Jewish adversaries while the “True” (cough, cough) Catholic church went about the business of stealing from, expelling, raping, and slaughtering Jews (not to mention the saints) across Europe for hundreds of years is the height of hypocrisy.
No institution on the face of the earth has spilled more blood than the Catholic church and her Popes. Don’t come around here with this mess.
It is quite true that the human part of the “One True Church” has been guilty of excesses (most exagerated by protestants and atheist) here and there. They pale in comparison to the crime of misleading billions to Hell which is what Luther’s teaching continues to do. Again I must point out that all of the core beliefs of Protestants were first defined by the Catholic Church. Once you get past those we have what this site exposes: heresy and self dealing.
(MN: I have to disagree Sayeed. The organization called The Catholic Church moved away from the Bible and went to salvation by works, tradition plus the Bible and the glory of the pope rather than Christ. The Core Values were first defined by the apostles, not “The Church.” However, I have no intention of running any kind of diaglog on this. Go to Alpha Omega Ministries if you really want a discussion. The only thing “The Church” offers is as much of a scam as the pimps. It has just been here a lot longer, fools a lot more people, and has prettier clothing for the leaders. )
I visisted Alpha and Omega but was not impressed. So I have returned here to drive home my point.
The core values were not first defined by the apostles. They were defined at the Council of Nicea. The anti historical tendency among protestants and the belief that everybody is a priest leads to continual splits and heresies. Ideologies parading as theology such as Prosperity theology or even Pentacostalism can only occur among people who have no knowledge of Christian history. Get any two protestant ministers in the same denomination to read the Bible and you will get two wildy differing interpretations because there is no Protestant authority which settles issues of interpretation.
(MN: I’ve listened to your mini-rant but was not impressed. I suggest you drive your point home, let it out of the car, and lock it up in its cage. ‘Cause it’s not doing anything out here but proving it’s not housebroken.
So what about AOMIN failed to impress you? Their insistence on staying with the facts? )
So what about AOMIN failed to impress you? Their insistence on staying with the facts? )
The web site is set up to convince those already convinced and those who are ignorant or think a Christian needs more than the Bible to understand the Word of God. The Bible is silent on the nature of the Trinity, worshiping on Sunday or even which books written during Biblical times were inspired and which were not. In fact much of Protestantism devolves into “book worship”.
(MN: Actually, The site is there to aid in the equipping of the saints to defend the faith. It’s main purpose isn’t to convince the unbeliever or the Catholic. But as I said, if you want to have arguments like that go to http://www.aomin.org , call them during their podcasts (Tuesdays and Thursdays), leave comments on their channel, and comment on their videos. I’m STILL not trying to convince you of the fallacy of Catholicism or any number of other items.
But aside from that, you really have to make sure you define your terms before you throw them out there. What, exactly, do you mean by the “nature” of the Trinity”? )
How appropriate is this? SM, based on your own statements, that is exactly what you are espousing here, an ideology parading as theology.
One thing is clear, either you deny the facts of history (as well as the truth of Scripture) or you “have no knowledge of Christian history.(read believe the facts or Scripture) at all.
Which is it? History is clear, the Nicene Council occurred many decades after the Apostles established “core values” (read Christian doctrine) and the purpose of the council was not to establish doctrine. The Scriptures are certainly clear, Romans 16:17 and 1 Timothy 1:3. What doctrine? The one established and taught by the Apostles.
I guess the real question is what is the real point you are trying to drive home?
Sola Scriptura,
DOC
Theological principles such as the Trinity are not even described in the Bible. The triune nature of God is not described at all in the Old Testament and barely alluded to in the New Testament. Why ? Because the Apostles and the Patriarchs were not blessed by God to know of it. If you could get past your idolatrous book worship you would realized that core principles such as Trinity were first discussed and decided upon at Nicea by the Catholic Church. In fact the decision about which scriptures would be used was made by the Catholic Church at other Councils similar to Nicea.
(MN: Sayeed, we’ve discussed the Trinity a bunch earlier. If you want to see what was said, do a search on Trinity and all the postings and comments will come up. If you want to argue about it, go to http://www.aomin.org and fuss to your heart’s content. However, (I’m going to say this slowly so you will understand it this time) I ….am….not….interested….in….listening….to….you….say….the….same….silly….thing….over….and….over….again. Consider…this…your….last….posting…on….the….subject. )
Hello, Mr. Mulagata:
Is there anything with which you disagree as far as John MacArthur’s analysis of Roman Catholic theology in his article I suggested for your perusal?
http://www.gty.org/Resources/Transcripts/90-291#top
Regards,
Peter
(Sayeed wrote)I visisted Alpha and Omega but was not impressed. So I have returned here to drive home my point.
The core values were not first defined by the apostles. They were defined at the Council of Nicea.
(GV) Wrong……the core values were DEFENDED at Nicea fromm heresy, not INSTITUTED. Your grasp of history is as faulty as your grasp of Catholicism and Protestantism.
(Sayeed)The anti historical tendency among protestants and the belief that everybody is a priest leads to continual splits and heresies.
(GV) Hmmmmmmm……….
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him [be] glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
(Sayeed) Ideologies parading as theology such as Prosperity theology or even Pentacostalism can only occur among people who have no knowledge of Christian history.
(GV) We have knowledge of church history, including the historical evidence of when the Catholic church apostacized. You, however, don’t even know what happened at Nicea.
(Sayeed)Get any two protestant ministers in the same denomination to read the Bible and you will get two wildy differing interpretations because there is no Protestant authority which settles issues of interpretation.
(GV) If I may employ an unBiblical term……..crapola. Here Sayeed is setting forth the blatant lie that Catholicism is a monolith, with complete agreement on doctrinal issues. He is attempting either to deceive us into thinking that Catholics all believe the same thing, or he is in fact completely ignorant of his own faith.
There are Catholics that reject Vatican II, there are sects that reject Papal authority,there are sects that are liberal and don’t hold to Scriptural inerrancy, and when the Catholic church had as many as 3 and 4 “Popes’ vying for power at one time, each ordaining priests and Bishops, no one knows which priests and Bishops were ordained by the Popes that LOST,which means we don’t know who THOSE illegitimate Bishops ordained AFTER them which destroys the doctrine of succession,which means that the majority of the bishops, cardinals, priests, etc in the Catholic church are ILLEGITIMATE,and cannot act as priests, and therefore cannot legitimately do mass or confession or give absolution, etc. because they stem from illegitimate Popes and cardinals and bishops, etc.
Yeah,that’s some monolith you got there. Please take this junk where folks don’t know the facts better than you know them.
i think crappola has 2 p’s but who am i?
(MN: No, no, ms. mav. The original Latin was spelled with two p’s. But as the etymolgy of the word indicates, as the word worked it’s way from Italy to France and Germany, and finally into Great Britain, the cheap Scotsmen, in order to save on ink began spelling the word with one p. You can see early examples of “CRAPOLA” vice “CAPPOLA” along the Hadrian wall. And besides saving ink, the Scots could write it faster, thus reducing the chances of getting caught by the Roman soldiers patrolling the wall. Of course, you should also realize that the last couple or three sentences you just read have been nothing but crapola (British variation) as well. )
Hello, GaryV:
You said, If I may employ an unBiblical term……..crapola.
If a genuine smile cannot be bought for a million dollars, but can only be given away, how much more estimable is a hearty guffaw that cramps the intracostal muscle, thereby bending one severely leeward? And at the price of my time ruminating over another of paisano’s inestimable vindications of our precious faith?
@GaryV
Your breakthrough was coming, however, the left intracostal muscle is semi-strained, and that belly laugh caused me to aspirate a mouthful of protein shake.
So, you blew that one.
@Sayeed Mulagata
If you care to, sir, the following article will give you some good ammunition the next time you engage us with your Catholic apology. You will find it a very interesting read, and I welcome your comments on it!
It would be downright unChristian of me not to warn you, though:
the article is authored by John MacArthur.
I give it an “X-rating.”
http://www.gty.org/Resources/Transcripts/90-291#top
Yeah……….what Mel said!! Besides Mav,just a little Google’ll do ya:
Urban Dictionary: crapola
I knew Hagee was full of crap with his gospel of the GOP sermons. I’m surprised but not surprised guess it makes sense. As long as bad press doesn’t affect his lucrative ministry he doesn’t care but the minute his controversy goes national capitulation time.
Hagee’s “flip-flop” is realy troublesome in that is represents a broader move of Evangelicals to be more “tolerant” (read compromising) of other denominations and their doctrines. However, the only unity that we (read Christians) should seek is that which is described in Ephesians 4:13 (and verse 14 for clarity). We live in times that don’t afford the opportunity to be tolerant, but only bolder in proclaiming the truth of the Word of God (in love) in which I fail to find compromise.
Sola Scriptura,
DOC
John Hagee is doing what a Pimp does and that is maintaining his cash flow. He quickly quieted the storm with his sudden Catholic loving conversion speech. It’s really not all that complex.
Kyle
(MN: None of the pimps’ games are that complex. This merely emphasizes that he is indeed playing the same pimp game as the rest. There is nothing complex about a shill. He’s out for one thing - money [and the power that usually goes along with it]. )
Melvin,
I couldn’t agree more. I used to be a Hagee fan when I was duped by this nonsense. Luckily being truly saved it wasn’t too long before God opened my eyes to these Pimps.
My point about not being complex was to emphasize the obvious fact that these Pimps use a methodology that is time tested and has proven results. But hey! so don’t car salesmen and AMWAY reps. Once you see just how shallow and weak the Pimp game is, you begin to scratch your head in amazement and say, “Did I really once fall for that”
Some days I can’t waste precious brain cells or even muster the strength to type on a keyboard to refute the Pimp defenders.
Sigh!
Kyle
This is so sad, not to stand up for Christ. i used to watch Haggee and then he started saying that Muslims should be saved, but then he doesn’t even try to convert the Jews that are supporting him. Last time I read my Bible said, That you can’t have the Father without the Son. We must preach the gospel, in Romans to the Jew first. Souls are Souls.
Dear Melvin & PPC:
I wanted to give some good news and an update on the marriage stuff in California. Today, the Secretary of State announced that we had received enough valid signatures to put a measure to amend the State Constitution on November’s Ballot! Praise the Lord!
While I certainly do not under estimate evil, I am conbfident that by the grace of God, we will vote this madness down once and for all! Thanks for your prayers.
Blessings!
BT
Black Theologian,
Praise God! I will try to keep you all in Cali and the rest of the brethern in my prayers. Lets hope that it actually gets amended.
Yup, the California Gay Marriage nonsense is going down in flames. They had the signatures to block it before these idiotic liberal Constitution twisting judges ever ruled.
I find it incredulous that Hagee, after all of the years
of bilge that he has said against the Catholic Church
is really contrite for his remarks. To me, he is simply
posturing and not willing to lose his economic and
political base.
If he was a man of his beliefs, he would “take the hit”
and continue his diatribe against the Great Whore.
But he compromised and gave in to being PC and in spite of his flaming rhetoric, he ends up being a smoldering match stick.
Oh….how money and power makes fools of us all including John Hagee. For a man who professed that he
was preaching the Word of God about the Catholic
Church, does this turn around signal a real change in
his sermons and teachings or just a interlude before
he goes at it again? Obviously, if he recants what he
has said about the Catholic Church (including his use
of scripture) then you need to re-examine his prior
sermons to see if they hold water and are credible.
Do I believe Hagee has changed? Can a donut change
its hole?
He’s plugging to be the next BG…especially if the gop wins…afterall, BG is about 90…Haggee’s a shyster!
yeahwecool,
He has competition from TD Jakes as the one trying to claim the mantle of the next Billy Graham. Melvin has the link somewhere.
Kyle
What did JESUS SAY?????- YOU SHALL KNOW THEM BY THIER FRUITS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If Jesus Said-” WOE unto you who are RICH you have recieved your consolation” & “Blessed are the POOR for theirs is the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN” Then WHY ARE people listening to some of these PREACHERS?????????
I don’t care if it is THE POPE-or ANYONE PREACHING the HEALTH & WEALTH GOSPEL. LOOK AT THE FRUIT-
Catholic Church-
PEDIFILE PRIESTS- HELLO????WHAT DOES GOD SAY ON THE SUBJECT?????
INQUISITION- HELLO?????
PUTTING MANS LAWS ABOVE GOD’s LAW- HELLO???
THE light comming on YET???? Read HISTORY PEOPLE.
PROTESTANT CHURCHES-
Name it & Claim it- I CHALLENGE ANY of them to Stand in Agreement that EVERY EYE BE OPENED- EVERY EAR BE UNSTOPPED- & EVERY HEART MADE TO UNDERSTAND The TRUE GOSPEL & REPENT,Be saved, Healed.Delivered. Lets Bind & Gag the devil DESTROY sin in the hearts & minds of all men HERE- NOW- ONCE & FOR ALL & as a Body of Christ Get Jesus Down here IMMEDIATLY to RULE & REIGN. They will NOT do it -WHY??????
-If GOD said something is a SIN then it has been, is now & forever will be sin. God said Homosexuallity is an ABOMINATION yet how many PREACHERS ARE SAYING IT IS OK????? SAME WITH ADULTERY,How about LYING??? Read Revelation- ALL LIARS WILL FIND THEMSELVES IN THE LAKE OF FIRE.
If It LOOKS LIKE A SKUNK, & SMELLS LIKE A SKUNK-IT IS A SKUNK no matter who says it is a house cat.
(MN: Just one thing - there’s no need to shout. We can all see fairly well. )
I am live and let live kind of guy. You want to be Pentecostal then Ok it’s fine with me.
(MN: Sayeed, you’re making yourself sound like an idiot. Who of us promoted Pentecostalism? )
You will answer to God. However when I saw you guys take on Hagee, I thought you’d do the Christian thing and attack his anti Catholic bias. Instead I find you attack him for not retaining his anti Catholic bias.
(MN: Do you not understand yet that I and many others here ARE anti-Catholic? Being anti-Catholic IS hte Christian thing given that Catholicism disguises itself as Christianity. )
The nerve of a group of people who’s religion is a mix of African spirit possession (getting the “Holy Spirit”, Speaking in Tongues etc) biblical scholarship (if you can call it that) made up on the fly and religious theatrics.
(MN: Sayeed, do you really think your attempts to throw in a distraction [at least I hope it’s an attempt to do so and you’re not simpy so dense that you can’t follow an argument] would work? One of the primary targets of this site are the Pentecostal pimps who take advantage of folks.
Last warning: Unless you do significantly better on this thread, consider yourself banned. )
The Greek orthodox church is closer to the truth than Luther we split from Catholics way before you guys protested but we are still christians and if you read the early fathers we are more biblical than protestants most protestants think we worship gods but we have so many former protestant converts that it is a testament to the true church. Theone greek girl who can read the bible
theone- Instead of reading the early fathers of the GOC, what is in the hearts of GOC attenders now? How is God working in their lives? Are they studying the Word of God for themselves? Are they only praying to God, not to saints? Are they repenting to God on a daily bases for themselves (no priest needed)? Have they realized they are sinners? Have they repented for their sins and know that Christ is the only sacrifice to cover those sins? Do they understand they will never be good enough for God, except through the shed blood of Christ? Are their lives changed because they have truely accepted and understand the Grace of God? Are all these things being taught from the GOC pulpit?
May I challenge you to find out what the Bible says about these questions. There is a difference in the “reading” and “studying” of scripture. Let me challenge you to do a word study on “salvation”. Find every scripture you can that has “salvation” in it and document everything the verses teach you about it. I think you will find it interesting and exciting.
By the way, God is more concern about the YOU then the denomination (Greek Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, etc)
Hi Theon,
Wouldn’t one of the reasons so many convert is due to marriage? If you want to get married in the GOC you must be a member correct? If you want your child “christened” then both parents must be members is that also correct?
Looking forward to your response!
Kronia Pola!
Phil