(MN: The quote is actually from an author by the name of Ryan. It is published through Todd’s site and apparently has his full blessing. However, I mistakenly attributed this specific quote to Todd. )
This is the new face of Christianity, complete with chin stud and brow piercing.
This guy is like the WoFers on steroids. Here’s an except from one of his sermons:
In recent months, the Lord has taken me up several times, in the Spirit, to a particular place in the Heavenly realm. I call this place the land of promises. This place was lush and flourishing with the life of God. The very atmosphere of this place was radiating with the presence of the Lord. It had the feeling of Spring when all things are new and refreshing. All around I could see rainbows reminding me of the promises of God throughout His word and the personal promises and prophecies that have been delivered from His mouth to His people throughout history. I instinctively knew that this was the place where these promises were found, activated, and brought down to the earth realm. God is currently speaking something at this time to the Body of Christ about His promises and the fulfillment of them in these end-times. (Fresh Fire)
Like the rest of the Five Fold/Apostolic/Fresh Revelation crowd, this guy is more than willing to deliver a message that is purely experience based.
This first paragraph, from a “sermon” he delivered is pure experience and completely divorced from anything in the Bible. For instance:
1. The Lord has taken me up several times – And how, exactly, do we know that this experience you had is from God and not Chipotle’s?
2. “The place was lush and flourishing with the life of God” – This sounds nice, but what does it mean?
3. “Atmosphere radiating with the presence of God” – Not only does he make heavy use of the usual Five Fold and WoF language (atmosphere this and atmosphere that), but he even pulls in the “presence” deal. When Israel experienced the presence of God in the Temple, and they had to get out of there. Others got an overwhelming sense of their own unworthiness.
4. “All around me I could see rainbows”… - So how did he know he wasn’t at a Lamda (i.e. homosexual) convention or something?
5. He instinctively knew that the place he was in was the place where God’s promises were found, activated, and brought down to the earth realm – Okay, is this like one of the warehouses that the rest of the WoF flakes natter on about?
6. “God is currently speaking something at this time to the Body of Christ about his promises and the fulfillment of them in these end times” – So again, we have extra-biblical stuff being fed to those who are foolish enough to suck it up
I’m not even going to give much attention to the piercings. Yes, they make him look like some shaman or Durid mystic. They make him look just like the increasingly outrageous folks out there. I’ve gotten to the point that I can at least tolerate a stud in a guy’s ear. I can tolerate it. But it seems that giving way a little only causes the trend to go even further. What next, a belly ring and a couple of nipple rings as well? I wouldn’t even be surprised if he went bare-chested to show of those rings. I know. Maybe he’s imitating Christ who was pierced for our transgressions.
Todd is a prime example of why right doctrine is so very, very important. Listening to his “sermons” it becomes incredibly obvious that he is lying to his audience. No, wait. Let me rephrase that since he may actually believe what he is saying. Listening to his “sermons” it is incredibly obvious that he is feeding them a bunch of lies that, at best, have a passing connection to Scripture and at worst set his audiences up for tremendous losses. I have to wonder how many people have had their faith virtually destroyed by guys like this.
Another section in that same presentation says:
Many of us try and try to see the promises of God’s word fulfilled through some rational ascent and belief in the Word of God. But the Word of God is simply meant to lead us into an encounter with the Author of the book. John 5:39-40 says, “You search the scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.” It’s ludicrous to think that a husband and wife should expect to conceive and give birth to a baby without first experiencing intimacy together. In the same way, we as believers can’t just go to the Word and see the Lord’s promises (of a great healing revival, for example) and expect to see it happen just because we read it. Mighty demonstrations of God’s power and glory are only birthed and manifested on the earth “through” ones who have learned to encounter the Lord in intimacy.
Again, let’s examine his proclamation, recognizing that at best he twists what little scripture he uses, and works without any at all in most areas.
1. “We try to see the promises of God’s word fulfilled through some rational ascent and belief in the Word of God” – How foolish of me. The Bible is simply intended to guide me to an experience.
2. “Mighty demonstrations of God’s power and glory (experience) are only birthed and manifested on the earth “through” the ones who have learned to encounter the Lord in intimacy” – In other words, those who can have certain experiences (real, faked, or imagined) are the ones who have an intimate relationship with Christ. And since he has these experiences around him, then obviously he can tell us about God; and can tell us what God has to say to the church. Never mind the Bible. It means what they say it means.
I tell you again: Right Doctrine is important. In fact, it’s critical. Without it, you are tossed about by every wind of doctrine. Todd says you have to birth Christ and you believe it. Some other Bozo says you have to walk in Apostolic power and authority, and you believe that. But Jesus Christ says you have to be willing to die to yourself before you can bear much fruit. You have to be willing to lose your life in order to keep it to life eternal (John 12:24-26). And let’s face it: Todd’s “promises” are a whole lot more exciting than Jesus’. You can impress and intimidate a lot more folks with Todd’s approach than you can with Jesus’. But Todd’s approach leads only to disappointment and loss. You even run the risk of having Jesus tell you to depart from Him because He never knew you.
Then again, if I go with Todd’s approach, I get to wear a chin stud and all kinds of odd rings on my face. And who wouldn’t want to do that?
Well here we go again! First it’s Rodney Howard-Browne now this doofus. I can’t add anymore to your article Melvin. Makes me look forward to the next generation of WOF flakes! NOT!! By the way Melvin,I’ll bet your wife would just love for you to get some piercings! LOL!
I was thinking Melvin,maybe we could go in the cereal business. Call it WOF flakes,with generous amounts of fruits and nuts!
I really don’t think you people have anything 2 do judging a man of GOD… all i have 2 say is WOW .. “SHAME” ON YOU I know in the bible it does say stuff about judging people … I think this site is totally crazy and you will have 2 answer to God … ALL i have 2 say is do not judge a person on the outer appear .. IT SAY IN THE BIBLE COME AS U R WAT KIND OF CHRISTIAN R WE if we put up site like these to talk about men and women of God. At the end of the day its God that has to Judge them not us . W e need to put our focus on God and don’t worry with the world cause at the end of the day you can’t say God well this pastor preached this or that u have to know God’s Word for yourself .
(MN: You are correct. We should put our focus on God. Unfortunately, Todd doesn’t put his focus on God. He puts his focus on signs and wonders, flashiness, and the such. Most of the site’s readers don’t worry about the world, except to worry about what impact bozos like Todd are having on the world’s impression of Christianity.
By the way, the Bible says we are to judge the heretics and their heretical teachings. )
Looking at the guy I seriously expected his message to be much different than what you posted. A Jay Bakker type of deal about how God is a rebel or whatever. I guess you really can’t judge a book by its cover.
*sigh*
Sounds like ole passah went rummaging through a New Agers trash can and found manuscript in which he replaced the words ’spirit’ and ‘godhead’ with ‘the Lord’ and read it off verbatum to some trained sheeple who’d lap up mercury and call it ’still water’ if told to do so.
He looks like one of those who proclaim he’s “radical for the Lord” and then mutilates his body in a sado-maschochist manner to stand out like your typical immature teen does.
Like my 19 year old son. Constantly changing hair color, facial piercings, deformed earlobes, a tattoo…he originally said he’d get ’scripture’ tattooed on himself…I guess a pirate tattoo is pretty scriptural. We even argued over whether getting a tattoo was something the bible supported or a pagan practice. He informed me that according to his beliefs taught to him, it was getting the same kind of tats a pagan would get. So scripture would be okay.
All supported by his WofF pastor. Who, in a catch 22, had a policy that those who worked for the church could not get ANY NEW tattoos period.
And you did nail it on the head.
Their schtick is all about (faked) experiences.
And the one with the most ‘experiences’ is the better one spiritually. Like some bragging contest.
Just like what I heard from the New Agers a couple of decades ago.
“Last night, I had an out of body experience where I went to the ethreal plane of existance and communed with spirit and the souls of those who died in that earthquake in Iran as they waited to be reincarnated”
‘Me too!’ exclaimed the newbie.
“Well, you didn’t let me finish! I also was given a blessing by the goddess Isis and can no channel Gloria. She was a 10th century mystic!”
Something like that.
Gnosticism.
I really don’t know how you do it Melvin.
I only lurk from time to time and have my face occasionally rubbed into this anymore and I nearly go ballistic.
Melvin,
They always wonder why we focus on historic Christianity and the Five Solas and Theology and Doctrine. I want to take them to this church take them out to dinner afterward, stand up on the table with a microphone hooked up to the loudest system money can buy and scream very emphatically “TO KEEP YOU FROM HERETICS LIKE THIS”.
I know a lot of wolf sympathizers are going to come on here defending such experiences, Gary V, Melvin, Kyle, Douglas and others will rip them to shreds in hopes of putting them back together with the glue of the Gospel, the Historic Jesus and the confessions held since the foundation of the church and I pray that just one will heed the challenges you pose here brother.
Oh how desperate we are for sound theology, sound doctrine, and the Biblical Gospel (the only real Gospel) and not this hocus pocus, catch me if you can hogwash! I think I am getting more angry the more I type so I will stop here! God bless Melvin and others and continue to be Robert Nelvilles in a New York plagued with the epidemic of Heresy
Hello, Thorn:
That is a good question that you posed to his Benevolent Dictatorship.
This is how dickkopf does it; my card:
*********************************************
Have (M-60) Machine Gun - Will Travel
Wire: dickkopf
Colorado Springs
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What I can’t understand is how anyone, ANYONE would fall for this guy’s act. He’s too lazy even to drum up valid insincerity let alone a “spiritual experience.” As I said on another website, watching this guy is like watching a misguided SNL parody - ‘Larry the Cable Guy’ as Elmer Gantry (adapted by Hunter S. Thompson). Turn it off!
I can say in all seriousness that everything about that guy makes me nauseous. I’ve been reading about him elsewhere, but had not seen his web site. Todd Bentley is a product of this age. He should be laughed at to scorn, but I can’t laugh.
Oh Brother! Excuse me, I hear GOD wretching, I have to go and get him a bucket…..
Melvin, are you certain that Todd Bentley said a single word of what you’ve cited?
The link you’ve provided to the statements does go to a web site that is headed by Todd Bentley. HOWEVER for what you’ve cited, at the top of the page it says
Ryan Wyatt is the Founder and Apostolic Team Leader of Abiding Glory Ministries. Another pot of mess, but obviously he associates with Todd Bentley. They are not the same person though. The fact they associate says something, but they are not the same person.
I’ve got a new post up about Todd Bentley too. I guess the Lord pressed on us at the same time to warn the saints, as many have been doing even before us.
Todd Bentley Says: Jesus Has Brown Eyes Like Bambi
(MN: You are correct. The actual author was Mr. Ryan. I quite mistakenly attributed this swill to Todd. I missed the little note at the top of the page. I missed it. Forrunately, there is no difference between what Todd says and what Mr. Ryan says.
But I do regret getting the reference wrong.
Thanks for the vigilant eye. )
Just trying to help you avoid any potential legal hot water brother. You know the pimps like to sue.
Not to mention you want to be accurate
.
Don’t worry Mel…There’s enough of the garbage that IS attributed to him right here:
http://www.injesus.com/index.php?module=group&task=details&GroupID=VB006FHZ
Melvin,
This guy is something else….get ready for the drivebys and the “judge not” crowd….I’ve been dealing with them for the past three weeks…and I see no end in the immediate future…
I’ve been grappling with all this for quite some time now on my blog, as well as on the blogs of several of my brothers in Christ. My dad caught a plane from London to Florida to get “this anointing”, and since then he’s been kicked out of a courtroom for disturbing the courtroom, disciplined both at work and at his church and due to the fact he has outbreaks of laughter at night, Mum has relegated him to the sofa.
This anointing can’t be of God, because there is no Scripture and doctrine in this - just bags of hype
Man, we should go back in time to look at the ridiculous costumes the Jewish priests wore. They’ve got a bunch of precious stones on their chest piece - like they’re rappers or something. Yo, yo, I cut up a bunch of animals and burn them all day.
Oh, man, don’t even get me started on those Nazirites! If only we had a picture of Samson with his crazy long hair. Like he’s one of those young, teenage rebels. You could mock him and we’d all laugh along.
Ooo, Ooo, What about that crazy guy that ran around in camel-hair clothes and ate insects!?! I bet you could find a picture of him with some breakfast locust still on his cheek! Let’s mock him.
Oh man, and that crazy guy Paul talking about how he went up into heaven. Let’s stay logical, stop trying to talk about your experiences. In mocking those who went off the cliff in total reliance on experience, let’s go off the other side in depending soley on intellectual assent to a bunch of words in a book. We’ll say we are experiencing it (because it makes us feel good inside), but let’s be self-deceived and instead just look to those words instead of that homeless Jewish carpenter. ooh, homeless, i bet he was smelly too. let’s mock him.
…
I don’t mean to throw stones but please think before you lash out at inconsequential crap.
(MN: I thought it would take longer to have someone defend these guys. And I even suspected the defense would have something to do with Paul’s excursion. But I have to admit I was really impressed with the way you pulled the sacrifices, the priest’s dress, and other references in. Again: Impressive!!! Silly, but impressive.
I don’t believe, for instance, that anyone is saying we should not look at experience. However, I am very definitely saying that we should not interpret scripture by experience. Instead, we should evaluate the experience by Scripture. These clowns take the experience as the authority, not the Scripture. )
In Paul’s heavenly experience, he stated that he saw and heard things, that ought not be repeated for us on the telestial realm, unlike what many of these liars are doing, who claim they’ve visited heaven, with their subsequent descriptions of what heaven looks like, the angels look like, and more importantly-HOW GOD LOOKS.
I’m telling you, these folks are lying, or are demonically possessed. Doesn’t the Bible teach us that the only time we will see the resurrected Christ (Jesus), is when we get to heaven, and the like-and not in our present earthly forms, on this telestial plain?
Naw man, these guys haven’t seen heaven, nor GOD for that matter.
Furthermore, what’s up with all this talk about “new revelation?” Now mind you, much of what some will refer to as true biblical “new revelation,” isn’t really all that new, but are things that have been exegetically taken from scriptures, prior to this “new revelation”-it just wasn’t as popular, or the suppression of it was due to folks ignorance and prejudices.
HOWEVER, much of this “new revelation” that’s out here today, doesn’t even pretend to be rooted in scripture, because it is, well-NEW, as in EXTRABIBLICAL!
Saying that something’s from God and that it is new, and not confined to “traditional church beliefs,” you can then desentisize folks into not believing totally in the Bible, because they are convinced that God can, and does, speak new things that are doctrinal, that may not be contained in the Bible. As a result, they can pound into their listeners with itching ears, any type of non-biblical, and demonically inspired teachings, all in the name of “christianity”.
Well said Seekerman! I know Bentley is the subject here. Is Blake willing to believe that DuPlantis saw “little babies” flying around the throne of God asking to be “redeemed” persons? This my man is preexistence. Mormonism to be exact. Bentley’s tales are no better! All I can say Blake,you’d better examine these guys closer before you believe their junk! Always follow the money trail where these “preachers” are concerned!
The talk of “God is doing something new” “fresh fire” and “new revelation” just gets on my nerves.
It’s as if what the Lord has done through the death burial and ressurection of Christ isn’t enough.
The seeking of signs and wonders and miracles just goes to prove that the people that seek them probably aren’t saved. True saints know that the real miracle is the fact that the creator of the universe would save unworthy, unfaithful fools like myself.
I recently spoke to someone who wants to go down to Florida and “experience God” I told him to open his bible. He went on to say that some little girl who was born without a eye had one instantly place in her socket at one of the meetings there. No documentation of course was provided just that “God is doing something”.
This is so frustrating at times but the word clearly says this is what was going to happen. If the body of Christ was just content with the gift of salvation and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, man we really could be productive for the Lord.
(MN: If nothing else, all the running around allows us to see who are His [My sheep hear my voice] and who aren’t His. It’s just like the fact that teaching the truth convinces those who are not His to walk away. Remember, you’re there to feed the sheep, not to convince goats to become sheep. It’s our job as we live and move in the world to tell people how to become sheep. And it’s God’s responsibility to move on the hearts of the goats to want to be sheep. )
Blake,first of all Paul didn’t elaborate much about his trip to Heaven,he also was writing Scripture. Secondly,he didn’t tell anyone for FOURTEEN YEARS! Thirdly,clowns like Bentley go into the minutest details of their “experiences.” Fourthly, Jesse DuPlantis writes an entire book about going to Heaven! And last of all, what the heck does any of this have to do with you, me, or anyone else? We shouldn’t be looking for these kinds of experiences at all. We’ve got Sacred Scripture and that’s enough! I wish you would just read your Bible for what it is. These men are liars. This junk they peddle sells books and CD’s,regrettably!
Melvin, I’m not defending the charismatics, but after reading the essay on your site by Dr. Dave Miller, in which he states, “After all, spiritual gifts no longer are available to the church…,” it is clear to me that your judgments against them are not only biased but one-sided . I’m assuming that you agree with Dr. Miller’s statement? If so, then neo-glossolalia and other spiritual experiences are at worse demonic or at least unscriptural since they are “not available today.” ANYONE manifesting spiritual gifts is automatically a target.
(MN: No, I don’t completely agree with Miller. It would be silly for me to say that the gifts enumerated are no longer exercised. I can, however, say that many of the gifts that are described as sign gifts really have no purpose in today’s church. After all, the sign gifts are there primarily to help the church before the Bible was completed. They were also operating in order to validate the Gospel in the areas the Apostles preached. Christianity no longer needs validation. As such, what is the purpose of the sign gifts. Additionally, the folks who claim to exercise the gifts don’t operate them in keeping with instructions given in the Bible. )
As I see it, Toronto, Brownsville, and now Lakeland are all counterfeits of legitimate moves of God designed by satan to cast aspersions on the true, 2 Peter 2:2. (MN: I would agree. But that doesn’t make the other things that take place not at Lakeland any more valid. )
In the case of Todd Bentley, what I find most troubling is that most of his experiences are not at all Biblical. He is channeling from an entity named Emma:
“…Now let me talk about an angelic experience with Emma. Twice Bob Jones asked me about this angel that was in Kansas City in 1980: “Todd, have you ever seen the angel by the name of Emma?” He asked me as if he expected that this angel was appearing to me. Surprised, I said, “Bob, who is Emma?” He told me that Emma was the angel that helped birth and start the whole prophetic movement in Kansas City in the 1980s. She was a mothering-type angel that helped nurture the prophetic as it broke out. Within a few weeks of Bob asking me about Emma, I was in a service in Beulah, North Dakota.
“In the middle of the service I was in conversation with Ivan and another person when in walks Emma. As I stared at the angel with open eyes, the Lord said, “Here’s Emma.” I’m not kidding. She floated a couple of inches off the floor. It was almost like Kathryn Khulman in those old videos when she wore a white dress and looked like she was gliding across the platform. Emma appeared beautiful and young - about 22 years old - but she was old at the same time. She seemed to carry the wisdom, virtue and grace of Proverbs 31 on her life. She glided into the room, emitting brilliant light and colors. Emma carried these bags and began pulling gold out of them. Then, as she walked up and down the aisles of the church, she began putting gold dust on people… Within three weeks of that visitation, the church had given me the biggest offering I had ever received to that point in my ministry. Thousands of dollars! Thousands!… During this visitation the pastor’s wife (it was an AOG church) got totally whacked by the Holy Ghost - she began running around barking like a dog or squawking like a chicken as a powerful prophetic spirit came on her. Also, as this prophetic anointing came on her, she started getting phone numbers of complete strangers and calling them up on the telephone and prophesying over them… Then angels started showing up in the church.”
The Barking, roaring and other unbiblical manifestations are what yoga adherents recognize as kundalini rising http://users.aol.com/ckress/symptoms.html .
This is far more insidious than “pimps” fleecing the sheep. This is a new age invasion of the church. Nevertheless, the foundation of God stands sure having this seal, the Lord knows them that are His.
2 Timothy 2:19
A bit more subtle but just as dangerous is what some of the churches most respected Christian leaders are saying. Billy Graham and Robert Schuller claim that people in other religions are going to be saved whether they know the name of Jesus or not; Franklin Graham just made a statement that Christian athletes should not evangelize during the China olympics; Rick Warren, Robert Schuller and others are at the forefront of a movement to bring the church into the new world order; John Hagee says that Jesus is not the messiah. This is the spirit of antichrist! (1 John 2:22) In addition, Ted Haggard was busted a few years ago for homosexual affairs; A preacher at Prestonwood Baptist Church in Dallas, one of the largest mega churches in the country, was just busted a couple of days ago for soliciting an undercover officer on the internet who posed as a 13-year old girl. He then traveled 3 hours to meet with her and have sex. How pathetic. This is just the tip of the iceberg.
There is a systemic problem in the church that’s far more diabolical than the profligate lifestyles of word of faith practitioners.
The sledge hammer of God’s judgment is about fall upon an apostate, Babylonian church and then on the whole world. It would behoove us all to repent, walk in love and live our lives in holiness, godly fear, and righteousness.
In Christ,
Aubrey Thomas
(MN: Someone stated a little while ago that it is likely that the heresies and fakery are indeed judgment. )
Aubrey said:
“Melvin, I’m not defending the charismatics, but after reading the essay on your site by Dr. Dave Miller, in which he states, “After all, spiritual gifts no longer are available to the church…,”
My response:
That was a totally asinine statement by Miller. I wouldn’t even go that far. This cat has no balance, and goes to the other extreme.
Melvin, there seems to be a propensity here to lump anyone who has spiritual experiences, i.e. visions, revelations, gifts of the Spirit, etc, etc in the category of being a fake. Is there anyone who has these experiences who is not a fake? If one is to believe that the gifts are no longer available to the believer, then it’s easy to understand based on that heretical notion how anyone and everyone manifesting them today is considered a fraud and therefore not of God. If, on the other hand, some of the gifts are available and some are not, the believer is left with the subjective task of figuring out which ones are and which are not. Both positions are tantamount to eviscerating the Word of God. It is a dangerous thing to take away from the Word or add to it.
(MN: Aubrey, we’ve been around this bush once. I’m not going again. The rest of your comment is posted. However, unless someone has something different to respond with, I’m not going to bore the readers with your efforts to justify extrabiblical revelation. Take a look at the article on Pentecostal/Charismatic practices. And go back and read the posting and comments on Pentecostalism. Most of what you have written below is addressed in the paper and in the comments. Tell me what I missed and MAYBE we can continue to talk about it. If you simply repeat yourself, I will decline to post anything else you may have to say in this particular thread. Any questions? )
There are 9 gifts of the spirit enumerated in 1 Corinthians 12–word of wisdom, word of knowledge, discerning of spirits (revelation gifts), divers kinds of tongues, interpretation of tongues, prophecy (utterance gifts), faith, healing and working of miracles (power gifts). I’m not sure which ones you consider “sign gifts” and therefore “have no purpose in today’s church?”
It would be dishonest for a righteous God to tell me in His word to earnestly desire spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 12:31) and then subtract from the list of gifts He already enumerated in His word, all of which the early believers freely partook. Shall not the judge of all the earth do right? I’ve never known father God to give us something and then take it away. Think about it. Would you give your children gifts and then take away all or part of them? Besides, the Holy Spirit, along with His gifts, are the earnest/guarantee/pledge of our inheritance until the redemption of God’s own possession (Ephesians 1:13,14).
There is nothing in the scriptures that remotely implies that some of the gifts have no purpose in today’s church. Is there abuse and misuse of the gifts today? Absolutely. But that doesn’t negate the validity and the efficacy of gifts and spiritual experiences in the modern church. We shouldn’t throw the baby out with the bath water. In 1 Corinthians 14, Paul corrected such abuse in the early church and gave guidelines for operating gifts and revelations in a local assembly.
Are there counterfeit gifts, signs, and experiences? Yes, indeed. But we have the infallible Word of God to guide us in ferreting out the the fake from the genuine. Deuteronomy 13:1-3; Galatians 1:8; 1 John 4:1-3. Given these powerful tools, the believer should never be afraid of gifts or experiences. In the coming days there will be a marked increase of the real experiences (Joel 2:28-32). There will be DREAMS, VISIONS, SIGNS, WONDERS, and sons and daughters will be prophesying. There will also be a marked increase of the false, too, as we are now seeing in Lakeland. The false will be so pervasive that even the elect would be deceived if possible. (MN: By the way, what basis do you have for saying that Lakeland events are false? )
I would like to get your take on the following experience–real or hoax?
1. http://youtube.com/watch?v=NNaoDyV-PJ4&feature=related
2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eo9OeWkAU7U&NR=1
3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DKqL-B9kbY&feature=related
(MN: And the best I can say is undocumented. But I think you miss the point. Can God raise folks from the dead? If He wants to He can do anything He wishes. I don’t question miracles. Though I prefer the well documented variety. Does the pastor have some gift of healing or something? I doubt it. If he does, he needs to skeedaddle down to the hospital, empty it out, get over to all the mortuaries, empty them out, and make sure he preaches a God/Jesus glorifying message while he does it. [Acts 3:4-12; 4:8; 9:32-35, 36-42; 14:9-17, etc.] Did he do those things? )
In Christ,
Aubrey Thomas
Melvin, after reading Dr. Miller’s and your essay on women. I don’t think I want to read any more essays on your site. So, unfortunately, my query will have to go unanswered. (MN: Your query is answered. You, however, choose not to look at the answer. )
Perhaps you will answer this one last question. Can you specifically point out where I tried to “justify extrabiblical revelation?”
(MN: Prophecy, as in “Hello, this is God” is extrabiblical revelation. Word of Wisdom and word of knowledge as the pentecostals define it is extrabiblical revelation. Apostles offer extrabiblical revelation [that’s their job - they wrote the rest of the Bible]. Visions and dreams are extrabiblical revelation. You SEEM to support these in one way or another. )
To be honest, Melvin, when I first saw Todd Bentley, I was completely repulsed by his appearance. In my opinion, his appearance doesn’t comport with Biblical standards of holiness and godliness. If women are to dress modestly, certainly men, too, are to dress in a way that doesn’t misrepresent the Lord Jesus Christ. The tattoos and body piercings is a misrepresentation of Jesus.
Second, There is little if any Word being preached. The Word of God is the most important thing in a service. Signs should follow the Word, but if there is no Word, I have to suspect the signs. Btw, I think the people attending are actually being healed, but the signs are lying signs and wonders (2 Thessalonians 2:9,10).
Third, Many of the signs don’t pass the Bible test. No one in the Bible every barked, squawked, or roared like lions. Also, Todd and many others there display involuntary twitches similar to parkinson disease. And, I have seen some of the women gyrating in an ungodly way–quite disturbing.
forth, I’ve never read about Paul or any of the disciples praying and using the term, “Bam!” They prayed in the name of Jesus.
finally, I have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside me. the Holy Spirit inside me didn’t agree with the spirit inside him.
Brother, there is a death certificate signed by a doctor; there is the doctors statement as well. What other kind of documentation are you looking for?
(MN: Being dead for three or more days works for me just fine. Ha drigor mortis set in and passed? I don’t know. Had the flesh started cooling down? I don’t know. All of the examinations were surface at best - I didn’t hear any breathing, I didn’t hear a heart beat. Surely you have heard of returns from death that have nothing to do with the miraculous? Additionally, I pointed out in my last response that the man may indeed have been raised from the dead. But that is not the same as the pastor bloke having some gift of healings. That was why I mentioned emptying out the various places of the sick and dead. Try to stay focused and pay attention to the discussion. )
In Christ,
Aubrey Thomas
Blake said:
“but let’s be self-deceived and instead just look to those words instead of that homeless Jewish carpenter.”
My response:
Sometimes the words are all you have. None of us wouldn’t have known anything about that “homeless Jewish Carpenter,” if it weren’t for “those words.”
As I said before, I have no problem with the belief that spiritual gifts are still in effect today, HOWEVER, I do have problems with folks who believe that the words in the Bible are dead, archaic, and not relevant in these days and times, to where they place “new revelation,” and mystical experiences, and the interpretation and lessons from these supposed ethereal experiences, over the word of God.
In other words, the modern church of today believes that a “new revelation,” and a message given while under the rubric of a christian mystical experience, regardless of whether it contradicts the bible, is genuinely from God, seeing as how this is a “NEW DAY.”
Many of these folks who wail against “traditions” of the church, or doctrinal beliefs of the historic christian church, just so that they can insert and peddle their spiritual deceptions, desire for their congregants to become extrabiblical in their outlook, on doctrinal issues, so that they can be fed any old counterfeit teaching, and experience.
ummm, for some reason I can see him appearing on Oprah talking about his new book. I just find it amazing that you find so people speak about God so loosely and in such a presumpuous manner.
Hello all,
I have done much research on this person. If you go to this website: http://www.scribd.com/doc/2909690/AN-ANGEL-CALLED-EMMA
it will tell you about some of the tattoos that he has received since becoming a Christian. There are many, many, many demonic overtones on his tattoos.
To me if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, smells like a duck, it can’t suddenly become a platypus. Sorry that doesn’t work for me.
I know I do not want anyone laying their hands on me that since they became a Christian has received a tattoo of Medusa, the death mask of Christ, or emblems of the Blair Witch Project.
With the advent of the internet, we have no excuse not to be like the Bereans and to find out what things are and aren’t and how they truly line up with the Bible. The Bereans did it from old scrolls and the such and we have it very easy and we can do the research from our homes.
I firmly believe that we are entering the times that are talked about in Mark 13:22, “For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.”
Thanks.
Just more of the same foolishness that we see everywhere, if not this fool then another one would rise up to be the latest ‘ imposter ‘ We have to remember that these people exist and will continue to spew blasphemies because Jermiah 5;31 because his people love to have it so.2 Tim 4;23 for the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine . They need a little more spice in their life because scripture alone is not enough and they dont key to unlock or understand what God is saying (what kind of ground did the word fall on? ) Thank you melvin this sight is an encouragement to those of us truly looking to please him .
hi melville,
i was wondering if you were going to announce your upcoming debate with mr. preston a full-preterist. i see that michael posted it on different blogs and no one has responded to it.
i will be listening to it because i’m interested in hearing both parties explain the Scriptures in light of their eschatological understanding of God’s Word. there are some questions that i have about each view that i’m hoping will be clarified.
i appreciate you mel for your willingness to “go down this road.” :o)
(MN: It’s been postponed for a month. I realized I have not prepared for it sufficiently and would surely have my head handed to me. But it also turns out that my opponent, Don Preston, is not going to be available when we were scheduled.
I figure it’s good practice for me and it’s about time I got into the fray on a real-time basis. The difficulty is that I am a procrastinating lazy pig and I tend to wait until the last minute to get going. I’m starting tonight to prepare for the June [likely the third Thursday in the month] debate. If any of you out there have any advice, suggestions, or idea, let me know. You have my e-mail address.
Oh, and tell Michael I forgive him for spreading the information all over the blogosphere. )
This is very disturbing, how can one not be ready? Why are you concerned about your head? Is not the truth more important that your pride? Is Christ soon to come or not? And does scripture prove it or not. “You’re a teacher, should you not know these things.
I’m sorry. I guess I have no clue as to what you are talking about. Are you talking to me or mrs. mav? I’m not seeing the reference to anyone’s head, pride, or anything else.
Please clarify.
Melvin
Melvin, are you not a defender of the Gospel? How is it possible that you would have been handed “Your Head”? Are you saying truth would’ve been defeated; that a lie “Christ has already returned” would have prevailed, surely you jest, I think you should that admit, you’re not qualified to debate this issue and seek a teacher that’s qualified.
Luk 14:28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have [sufficient] to finish [it]?
Luk 14:29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish [it], all that behold [it] begin to mock him,
Luk 14:30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
You would do well to study and understand this parable
(MN:JIC - First, calm down. This is a debate, an activity where I present a position and defend it against a rebuttal, , then he presents a counter position and defends it against a rebuttal, in real time, while we are both there. Within the context of the debate it is quite possible that one or the other of us could come in so ill-prepared that we would not make a credible defense of our position.
Sure, it’s true that Jesus is the Christ. But if someone asks me why I say so, I need more than “’cause the Bible says so” to respond with. These guys believe that Jesus’ physical return took place in 70 AD. I need more to present than “No He didn’t.” What from Scripture indicates He didn’t. Can you effectively tell me right off the top of you head? What arguments do they present that it is so? Can you effectively neutralize them RIGHT OFF THE TOP OF YOUR HEAD? I didn’t think so. You’re not ready. )
Righter agrees that preparation and organization are key elements that are essential to any debate. Moreover, Righter asserts that effective time management strategies must be utilized to ensure that the presentation is both clear and concise, in addition to being persuasive.
Thus, this thing should be taken “Line by line, precept by precept” because this is not a race…
Not trying to be harsh, But I didn’t consent to a debate you did, unfortunately you didn’t count the cost when you accepted the challenge, because you lacked wisdom the end result is you could’ve defended the gospel, ” I’m lazy” is unworthy of a defender, and in battle would have cost you your life.
It would serve the body well that you ask a more qualified man to debate this issue.
It would serve you well to ask God for forgiveness, and to deliver you from your laziness.
JIC
(MN: I suggest you get a grip - and climb down off your high horse, the one that you aren’t willing to ride into battle at all. You’re speaking of things of which you know very little. And you don’t seem to pay attention to what people say. )
The horse I’m riding is not high but low, I’ve been in many a battle, I have defeated and been defeated. My defeats, the result of pride, the victory’s were my Lords. It’s why I said to you, ask God to deliver you from your flaw brother, that you may fight the good fight, and finish what you begin.
A low horse??
I just love when false humility asks others to repent. This place never ceases to amaze.
I do see the mention of me having my head handed to me. But what does that have to do with pride or being ready for the return of Jesus Christ? I’m really not following your comment. Can you help a bruvva out?
Frankly Mav, I think Melvin should drop the debate, because it’s a setup. I saw the questions Mr Preston submitted, and they’re a breadtrail to a pre-set trap.
A debate is a single proposition to be denied or defended. Mr Preston has submitted a series of questions covering a half dozen topics which each would require an individual debate in themselves.
He’s posited these questions in a certain order to lead to a certain conclusion. He’s directing the discussion (it’s NOT a debate in this format) and forcing it’s direction to where it benefits him.
A DEBATE has a single proposition. Mr Preston has thrown questions from the entire scope of Preterist dogma, requiring Melvin to refute the ENTIRE PRETERIST HERMENEUTIC rather than a single proposition such as )Is Preterism The Understanding Of The Historic Christian Church?” or “Does The Scripture Witness To A Bodily Or Spiritual Return Of Christ?”.
THOSE are debate topics.A requirement that Melvin address an entire eschatological hermeneutic with loaded question that he knows full well cannot be adequately dealt with in this format is NOT a debate. It’s also NOT about determining Truth.
It’s like an evolutionist demanding that you refute the evolutionary theory from the realms of physics, genetics, biology, the fossil record,and mutational theory all in an hour. Meanwhile, of course, framing the questions purposely in a manner that would require you to address all these disciplines and deal with them simultaneously with the full knowledge that this is an impossibility (which is precisely why this is NOT done in a debate format).
Then, naturally, having given your opponent an impossibly large range of subjects to cover in a refutation, (and requiring this in order to deal with the questions demanded) he can safely declare victory before they even do the first sound check and hit the airwaves.
“See?? Melvin couldn’t refute the entire Preterist eschatological hermeneutic in an hour, therefore Preterism is true.”
I’d never allow myself to be set up in this manner.
(MN: This is why I asked you, Saiko, and John to help a bruvva out. I got your call the other day. I should be in touch with you this afternoon if you have time. I have no intention of doing this thing on my own. )
First Gary V, the questions were agreed to by the party’s, you need to ask Melvin why he accepted the Questions, and why we didn’t seek council before accepting the terms
Secondly: the topic’s that were debated were:
Depending on the time available, there may be two propositions.
Don K. Preston will affirm the following.
Resolved: The Bible teaches that the Second (i.e. final) coming of Christ occurred at the time of the fall of Jerusalem in A. D. 70.
Don K. Preston: affirm
Melvin Jones: Deny.
If time permits, Mr. Jones will also have an affirmative, which will be:
Resolved: The Bible teaches that due to Jewish unbelief and rejection of Jesus in the first century, the Davidic Kingdom was postponed until the Second Coming of Christ which will occur at the end of the current Christian age. Don K. Preston: Deny
Melvin Jones: affirm
Thirdly: to imply Mr. Preston loaded the deck is to imply Mr. Preston was being dishonest; I’ll forward your comments to Mr. Preston.
(MN: Allow me to interfere a little. The questions aren’t going to be debated. The premise to be debated is Jesus returned at 70 AD during the destruction of the Temple and all Old Testament prophecies were fulfilled at that time. However, I don’t really agree to the second one in its totality. The primary issues here are: Has Jesus Christ returned/ If he has, then all the rest is irrelavent. If he has not, then all the rest is irrelavent. )
That’s a bit more clear. My apologies for misunderstanding the context.
BTW, how does it come to pass that Melvin is to defend a proposition he doesn’t actually believe??
Big Mel here’s my suggestion, why don’t you ask John “I can take a pretrist with one hand tied behind my back”. Maybe he can put his $40,000 education to use! LOL. Maybe not, because when I called him he hung up on me twice! And I like what you said Big Mel, you got to be able to bring more to the debate then to only say “well this is what I believe”. You’ve got to be able to prove it through the scriptures. Like your question, what in the scriptures says that Jesus hasn’t returned? I do hope your buddies help you out,LOL.
People of God…
Todd Bentley is a prime example of guillible Christians/victims losing all rudiments of discernment and knowledge of correct doctrine.
Todd is such a flaming flim-flam artist (he is also hooked
up with the Elijah List and the discredited Kansas City
Prophets and Paul Cain and Patricia King and Bob Jones)
that you would think anyone with two working brain
cells would see through his gibberish and write him off
as a circus clown. But, regrettably people are flocking to
his tent and paying their monies and leaving discernment at the door. You can see several of his
clips on U Tube and go visit his website or simply
run a “Google” on his name.
These are last days and the Todd Bentley’s are empowered to come out of the woodwork and do their
magic and spin their angel yarns and too many members of the Body of Christ simply take it all in and
get mad with you when you tell them that this guy is
a first class fakir. Yes, I mean the word, “fakir”.
If you examine his doctrine (much less his tattoos which
were done purportedly AFTER he ostensibly came to know the Lord) you will find that Todd is a heretic and
is simply merchandising the saints. His “stories” are
amazingly scripturally incorrect but for many saints..so
what…they listen anyway and support this tomfoolery.
Christians need to go to these meetings with placards
and denounce this charlatan. Satan has found a
good follower with Todd and his magic/nonsense.
Yes, he will eventually get on the TV circuit and wow
the Oprah crowd and TBN will have him on for a fund
raiser telethon…the usual stuff done when these
charlatans go mainstream.
It is tiring to keep on seeing these personalities lie and
scam their way into peoples pockets and hearts but
people who have an inner bent towards this nonsense
will be continually feeding and supporting the Todd
Bentley’s of the world. Like attracts like.
Seekerman & Ex-Wofer,
I screwed up in saying that it was Paul’s experience…sorry…it was actually the experience of someone he knew. Regarding what you said:
So that man in 2 Corinthians had an experience where there were things said that he isn’t permitted to repeat. Why would that have any effect on whether this punk (Ryan Wyatt?) is allowed to give an account of his experiences? So he gives us a detailed account of everything, even what God looks like, don’t we find the same things in the prophets’ writings and books like Revelations?
(MN: The issue is not whether someone within Scripture was taken up into heaven or not. The issue is: Do we accept as valid that which these men and women call “Revelation Knowledge”, knowledge that comes directly from God in at least a similar manner as did Scripture.
The instant you give their experience an equal weight with Scripture, you’re screwed. You no longer have a standard with which to measure any statement, experience, doctrine, or behavior. The experience can always be made to outweigh or trump Scripture. Then you go from people supposedly using a prayer language to people claiming a city of the Kingdom, to people barking like dogs, to people (K. Hagin for example) having out of body experiences, descending into hell, and the such, to meeting with the angel Emma for guidance.
And by the way, Wyatt seems to be doing the same thing most of the fakirs (I forget who first introduced that word to us, but I do like it) do - use some supposed privileged knowledge to promote his own special standing with God. He was taken up, he saw things, heard things, and now understands things you poor schlepps never saw or heard. You need to listen to him as he tells you what you should exprience. There is no taking us back to the God of the Bible. It all takes us away and leads us to an experience based theology. And God is not about expreience. He is about obedience to His word. And his word doesn’t mean what some fakir says it does based on his experience. It means what God meant when he first spoke through the writer. )
All Paul said was that fourteen years ago his friend had an experience. He does not say that his friend didn’t tell anyone for 14 years. But time-not-telling-people doesn’t affect an experience’s validity anyway…Mohammed didn’t tell the public of his “experience” for 3 years and we all know he was either a liar or deceived by a spirit.
(MN: If nothing else, the eagerness to tell everyone what they saw demonstrates a difference in the character or quality of the supposed expeirience. Does it glorify God or make the speaker more important in the eyes of the follower. In this case, it makes the speaker more important in the eyes of the followers. And it reinforces the need for an experience-based based authority. The more expriences you can brag about, the more spiritual you are. Unfortunately, God doesn’t use some flashy experience to measure your spirituality. )
I don’t believe God’s going to reveal any new doctrine in these experiences - to think so would open the floodgates to all kinds of heresy, but I also don’t think we should automatically write these guys off as nuts.
(MN: What is the purpose of the experiences? They are presenting new doctrine. For instance, Wyatt has presented the following doctrines:
1. The Holy Spirit spoke to me and said that when He is present He brings with Him the atmosphere of creation. Doctrine - The Holy Spirit can be “present” or not. And when He is present, He brings the atmosphere of creation.
2. In the same way that Mary was chosen to conceive Jesus within her womb and bring Him forth into the world, so too, we as believers are chosen through intimacy and impartation from heaven (conception), to bring forth the Son of God to the world through displays of heavenly glory and power. Doctrine - Believers are chosen through intimacy and impartation from heaven. Doctrine: We are to demonstrate the Son of God to the world through displays of heavenly glory and power. (Interestingly enough, Jesus said we are to demonstrate His power in our lives by our love for the brothers, not a bunch of fakable miracles. )
This discussion affects you and me because, while we don’t get doctrine from experiences, they may be just as essential. I believe God gives them to people to bless and encourage the Church - you and me. I’ve found that I love to listen to 2 types of sermons. There are the types that dig into God’s word and unearth nuggets of truth that make you want to lift your voice to God in praise. (RC Sproul, etc.) They reveal truth. Then there are the types that are a preacher pouring out his heart and thoughts and passions and love for God and they just stir up a passion in me for God. (Leonard Ravenhill, etc.) They reveal beauty. Too much of either makes me crave the other. Both types draw me closer to God. The former flow from scripture while the latter flow NOT mainly from scripture but from the experiences and love for God of a regenerate human being. Both have a place. Experiences may not be the source of truth in a Christian’s walk but they are almost as essential. They complement each other. Truth and Grace (John 1:14). Faith and Love. I am a human with a mind and a heart and God uses both (with Scripture and experiences) to Glorify Himself.
(MN: I suspect we are not saying the same thing. The experience of the saints in obedience to God, through persecution, faithfully following God’s commands, and sacrificial love for one another [all of these are experiences and can certainly encourage us] have nothing to do with some bloke who says he’s been to heaven and presents “new” knowledge. The experience you speak of validates Scripture. The experience these guys speak of attempt to add to scripture. )
Melvin correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t Paul speaking of himself? Was it not Paul who went to Heaven? Paul is merely speaking indirectly of himself. Other wise why would Paul be given his thorn in the flesh? Blake there was no “phantom” friend of Paul here. Paul was speaking in the third person if you will.
(MN: Kind of like Righter does. )
Of course Paul was talking about himself, that is so plainly discerned.
Naw man, Duplantis, nor this new kid on the block, ever went to heaven. Again, either they are outright lying, or have been under such a severe state of deception, to where what they are seeing is nothing more than demonically induced visions.
These ministers nowadays, read the scriptures, and the extreme experiences and miracles of the biblical characters, and now feel these biblical characters shouldn’t be the only ones having all of the fun. They look at these miracles and view them as sexy, chic, on the edge, and exhilirating, to where they are actually jealous because they themselves don’t have the same experiences, or even titles.
That’s why many of these guys refer to themselves as “prophets”, or “apostles,” because of their carnal egos, and the fact that they don’t want to be left out of the party. Not only that, their carnal flesh and ego, love the praises of men, and what such titles can give to their stature within the church world.
In other words, they have to present themselves as much more than what they really are in Christ, so they become bewitched to seek after a title, or claim an experience, so that folks looking up to them, will be drawn more to them, with the false belief that when these cats speak, the words are the direct oracles from God, because of their titles, and because of what they experienced.
Right on Seekerman….you nailed it! Certain
people seeking exotic spiritual experiences and
are met by an angel of light who is too happy
to indulge their fleshy fantasies so they can
dupe others into believing that [1] they had
such an experience and [2] as a result of it,
they are more spiritual or gifted than you and
[3] you, the gullible should pay for it with
your money. This is snake oil quackery but
the Body of Christ tolerates it when they shussh” everyone who dares to critique
these clowns and imposters and even worse,
give them media time or print space and extend
their nonsense to others.
Satan and his imps are having a field day with
the Patricia Kings, Benny Hinns, Kim Clements Todd Bentleys and the Creflo Dollars of the world (notice, I did not say…of the kingdom).
For all, I say….contend for the faith and be
good Bereans (Acts 17:11) and pull as many as
you can out of this fire of carnality and experienced based authority over that of
scripture.
lol
The demand for the Todd Bentleys of the world is being created by the masses who no longer endure sound doctrine. Even the man of Sin will be given to the world for the same reason: They don’t want the simple truth about a rejected Man who died for our sins, then was raised from among the dead three days later.
Todd Bentley is not a thermostat, he is a thermometer. IOW, he doesn’t cause the apostasy, he indicates it.
WELL……….I take a couple of days away and I miss all the fun.
Brother Fischer, I believe where you are missing the essential point is in the fact that Pauline Revelation has the validation of Christ and the other Apostles. When PAUL states he went to Heaven (and there is very little speculation it was anyone OTHER than Paul) we can accept it because the Apostles are the foundation of the church and were instruments of Divine, Inerrant, Inspired Revelation.
Peter calls Paul’s writings Scripture. Christ sent him to the Gentiles as a witness and empowered him to do so verbally as well as in writing. Paul was accepted in Acts by the other Apostles as an Apostle.
In other words, Paul has a pedigree.
Todd Bentley does not……..to say the least.
Add to this the fact that Bentley contradicts KNOWN Divine Revelation repeatedly and outrageously, and we have what is known as a false teacher.
If proposition “A” is the polar opposite of Proposition “B”, then both “A” and “B” cannot both be true at the same time and in the same manner.
Therefore, since we already know that proposition “A” (In this case recognized Apostolic Divine Revelation) is true, then proposition “B” (Bentley’s spew) is inarguably false. And he’s teaching it.
False……..Teacher.
Here’s a little something Todd cooked up about one of his conversations (chuckle, snort) with Jesus.
(Todd) “I told the Lord why can’t I just move in healing and forget talking about all that other stuff?”
“Because, Todd, you have to get the people to believe in the angel.” (Referring to EMMA, Todd’s “angel/spirit guide”)
“I said, God, why do I want people to believe in the angel? “
“Isn’t it about getting people to believe in Jesus?”
“He said, the people already believe in Jesus, but the church doesn’t believe in the supernatural.”
Now…..we don’t REALLY have to break down what exactly is unBiblical about this, and what characterizes this as a false teaching, do we?? It’s fairly blatant.
More Toddisms……..
“Scripture also speaks of another angel that releases finances. I understand that God will supply all my need according to His riches in glory (Phil. 4:19). Do you know what that means? There are riches in glory because the earth is the Lord’s and everything in it. He is the God who supplies our needs according to His riches in glory. The bible even tells us that the silver and gold are His. So when I need a financial breakthrough I don’t just pray and ask God for my financial breakthrough. I go into intercession and become a partner with the angels by petitioning the Father for the angels that are assigned to getting me money: “Father, give me the angels in heaven right now that are assigned to get me money and wealth. And let those angels be released on my behalf. Let them go into the four corners of the earth and gather me money. Let them gather my partners.”
(GV) Naturally, Todd fails to validate anything he claims about financial angels or female angels by the Bible. Nor does he demonstrate that we are to “partner” with angels in ANY endeavor.
In fact, the Bible says quite the opposite.
Col 2:18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions.
(Sound like anyone we know??)
19 He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.”
2 Cor 11:12 (Paul speaking) And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about.
(Kinda like Todd expecting his (ahem, cough) trip to Heaven to be accepted as valid based upon Paul’s.)
13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
(GV) Paul here is warning the church against those who attempt to elevate themselves to the Apostles’ status via their boastings (”Look folks……..I went to Heaven just like Paul!!”)
There is also explicit warning that many who seem to be angels or messengers of Christ are in fact demonic in origin. They are masqueraders……..hiding behind a mask to deceive. A more clear and obvious command not to engage with folks who prophe-lie like Todd could not be imagined.