I don’t usually follow up a posting on one of the pimps with another posting on the same pimp. But, as I am want to do, I sat and listened to Joel (aka Willow Boy) a couple of days ago (Sunday, 6 April 2008) and I was absolutely blown away by the contents of his pep talk, or PT (surely you didn’t expect me to call it a sermon). I decided the PT needed to be addressed.
The title of the PT was “How to Have a God Kind of Faith.” And yes, this is going exactly where you think it is. Basically, Joel pointed out that it’s not good enough that we should just have faith. We have to have the same kind of faith God has.
Have you heard this before? Yeah, it’s the same thing Copeland and the newly minted Word of Faith Apostle Fred Price feed their victims.
Joel started off assuring us that God has great things in store for us, insuring us that the reason we come up against difficulties is because God wants us to exercise faith, His kind of faith.
Willow Boy went on to say that we have to let God’s faith operate through us. That’s right – God has faith and He wants to operate it through us. He wants to operate his faith through us. That’s how we can get past the barriers in our lives.
I don’t know where to start with this. It’s such a target rich environment.
Okay, let’s start with the fact that God doesn’t have faith. He doesn’t need faith. He is the creator of the universe, the source of life, the source of power. He doesn’t use faith for anything.
The phrase Willow Boy uses implies that faith is a substance of some kind. It implies that God can use me as a conduit through which His faith flows. And that, of course, is exactly what the rest of the WoF pimps will tell you.
As do the rest of the Word of Faith wolves, Willow Boy demotes God to our level. Instead of us exercising faith in God’s faithfulness, in His wisdom, and in His perfection, we force Him to operate the same way we do, through faith. According to Joel, He has the same needs that we have. God uses the same substance we can use. He has to use something outside of Himself (faith, a substance) to cause to happen what He wants to happen.
A question: If faith is a substance, did God create it? If He uses faith to create, how did He create BEFORE faith came to be? If He didn’t create it, how did it come to be? Has it always been? Wouldn’t that mean that there is a substance that has been around longer than God? Doesn’t that mean there is something that is “more eternal” than God?
Apparently God needs faith to create just like I need a saw, a hammer and a screw driver to build a house. So where did God’s celestial toolbox come from? Did He run down to the Celestial Hardware Store and buy it? Does He have a celestial carpenter’s belt as well?
I really have to feel sorry for the 48,000 sheeple who give attention to him every week. They are completely unarmed. We know they don’t read their Bibles. And watching the show, listening to Joel, we know he doesn’t read his Bible either. It really is a matter of the blind leading the blind. It really seems as though people like Joel are busy setting folks up to be susceptible to deceivers like Oprah and her cohort in crime Echart Tolle I mean, what’s the real difference between what Oprah natters on about and what the smiling preacher throws out there? Joel makes his listeners ripe for the picking.
Can you imagine how susceptible the 48,000 people who sit under him are? He has not taken them to Scripture. I doubt that he understands the importance, no, the absolute necessity of right doctrine. The people who follow him are like a troupe of starving people, dying because their leader has no clue as to what real food looks like. How many of them believe there is no substantive difference between Christianity and Mormonism or between Christianity and Jehovah’s Witness doctrine?
What do you suppose he thinks of Oprah and her New Age witchery? She says she loves the Lord so she’s probably a Christian too. Right?
The more I think about Joel, the more upset I get, and the more I suspect that it’s going to be men and women like him who will end up leading the persecution of the true church when the time is right.
Will he be able to change? I don’t know. I think it would be kind of embarrassing for him to admit at this point that he really is clueless. So I suspect that as long as he is comfortable doing what he does (pretending to have some great and godly wisdom) and people are willing to follow and fawn over him, he is not likely to change.
But can you imagine being him and his wife when they face Jesus Christ at his judgment seat? Man! I wouldn’t want to be in their shoes…or sandals…or whatever we’ll be wearing when we face him. But it sure would be interesting being a fly on the Lord’s throne, watching what happens.
Scary Melvin. I have a sister in law that’s there. What do I say to her?Thank you.
Hi Red, I suggest when you have her alone (in person would be best, if not, over the phone) you ask her about him. However, before you do this, you have to study your Word. What makes his preaching anti-Christ? What scriptures is he in direct violation of? You also should look at other folks writings about him. Now just don’t take what anyone has to say, but search the scripture for yourself to make sure they are using it correctly. There is nothing wrong with building off of what God has placed on someone else’s heart. But oyu must study for yourself to make sure that YOU are believing and preaching the scripture alone. Then, bring out the Bible and you ask her what is more important- that preacher or the Bible. If she says the Bible, you point out his flaws through the scripture. If she says the preacher, then you point out HER flaws according to scripture. You witness the Word to her. But be cordial and loving. She is family. Try to leave her questioning what she believes. Then pray for her. But make sure that it is obvious that you are doing this out of love. Then pray some more. And let her know that she can always talk to you. Furthermore, if she comes across something that you don’t know, don’t freak out, just write the question down and tell her you will get back to her. AND DO IT!
I hope this helps:)
Okay man, this is your second shot at this cat, so what you ought to do, seeing as how you’re so mad passionate about this guy, who has the largest church in the U.S.-IS WRITE THIS MAN AN OPEN LETTER, AND PLACE IT IN AS MANY MEDIA OUTLETS YOU CAN GAIN ACCESS TO.
This is the future of christianity, especially within the black community, and seeing as how he has the largest church in this country, which has vaulted him to celebrity status in the media, it would be good to have another figure out there offering a counter-balance.
You may as well do so, seeing that it doesn’t appear as if he’s going anywhere, any time soon, which makes for a ripe season, when it comes to attacking his ministry.
Just a thought.
(MN: Actually, this IS the biggest outlet I can gain access to. That’s why I’m using it. )
none of this suprises me any more. From what i can see this is all part of the great falling away. Can you imagine the Apostles being around to see the mess that is going on?
Melvin,
If God has the “God kind of Faith”, I wonder what He has faith in?? It sounds to me like maybe Willow Boy borrows concepts and possibly sermons from1980’s 1990’s Copeland, Cahsflow, etc…
He has faith in himself, just like Big Bird has been telling me I ought to have all these years…
(Grrr… where is that pukey-face symbol, Melvin? You ought to have one of those installed so people can show how nauseated they are by this perversion of the Gospel. But then I guess people might think it was just ralphing in the Spirit…)
Yeah I saw that same sermon last Sunday and just couldn’t take it. Five minutes of it was all I could watch. It was so unbiblical. Where does he get the mess he preaches? And to think 48,000 people flood through that wide gate to hear his lies. Osteen’s church doctrine (or lack thereof) demonstrates how his followers have allowed him to interpret the bible for them instead of studying it for themselves. Boy we really need some Acts 17:11 Christians today.
But Nate didn’t make you feel good?
Kyle
Bro. Nate give Brooksdx a holler @ brooksdx@gmail.com. I think I know you.
Yeah, this sounds like the “faith of God” concept that is popular in the Word-Faith movement. It’s based on mistranslation of Mark 11:22, which they claim says, “if you have the faith of God you can throw a mountain into the sea with your words.” Of course, this is a logical fallacy: God doesn’t have faith, because faith is trust and belief in something or someone greater than oneself. Also, they’re probably not aware that the Greek word pistis can be translated as “faithfulness” as well as “faith.”
Where did you get your definition of faith? The bible says in Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen. As for your statement that “God doesn’t have faith”–read Romans 12:3 “…God has dealt to each man a measure of faith.” How can God deal to us something he doesn’t have? Also, on what basis do you make the assertion that the “Faith of God” translation of Mark 11:22 is a mistranslation? Here are a few of your “mistranslations”:
And Jesus answering saith to them, ‘Have faith of God; for verily I say to you, that whoever may say to this mount, Be taken up, and be cast into the sea, and may not doubt in his heart, but may believe that the things that he saith do come to pass, it shall be to him whatever he may say. Because of this I say to you, all whatever — praying — ye do ask, believe that ye receive, and it shall be to you. (Mark 11:22-24; Young’s Literal Translation)
And answering Jesus said to them, Have faith of God. For truly I say to you that whoever shall say to this mountain, Be moved and be cast into the sea, and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that what he said shall occur, he shall have whatever he said. Therefore I say to you, All things, whatever you ask, praying, believe that you shall receive them, and it will be to you. (Mark 11:22-24; Modern King James Version, © 1962-1998).
And answering, Jesus said to them, Have faith of God. For truly I say to you, Whoever says to this mountain, Be taken up and be thrown into the sea, and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says will happen, it will be to him, whatever he says. Therefore I say to you, All things, whatever you ask, praying, believe that you will receive, and it will be to you. (Mark 11:22-24; Literal Translation of the Bible)
And Jesus answering, saith to them: Have the faith of God. Amen I say to you that whosoever shall say to this mountain, Be thou removed and be cast into the sea, and shall not stagger in his heart, but be believe that whatsoever he saith shall be done; it shall be done unto him. Therefore I say unto you, all things, whatsoever you ask when ye pray, believe that you shall receive: and they shall come unto you. (Mark 11:22-24; The Douay Rheims Bible)
And Jesus, answering, saith unto them, “Have the faith of God.” Verily I say to you, whosoever says to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and cast into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says comes to pass; he shall have it. Therefore, I say to you, all things whatsoever ye pray and ask for, believe that ye received them, and ye shall have them. (Mark 11:22-23; The Worrell New Testament)
And Iesus answered, and said vnto them, Haue the faith of God. (Geneva Bible, 1587)
Further, the following passages seem to bolster these translations:
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. -Gal. 2:16
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. -Gal. 2:20
According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him. -Eph. 3:11-12
For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? …..Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; -Rom. 3:3, 22-23
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. -Col. 2:11-12.
Perhaps you should all read your Bibles before you make statements castigating whole groups of believers.
In Christ,
Aubrey Thomas
Aubrey,
None of the scriptures you posted in their direct context support the idea that God has a ‘kind’ of faith. No where in the Bible is this supported.
Some examples:
For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? …..Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; -Rom. 3:3, 22-23
This passages teaches that we receive the righteousness of God (justification) by faith ‘of’, in Jesus. We are not made right with God by using the faith that Jesus used (He didn’t need faith) we are made right by placing our faith IN the finished work of Jesus, or IN Jesus.
In every passage you cited the context clearly says that the ‘of’ means ‘in’.
Try again.
Ablackman, I never used the word “kind.” You did in an attempt to build and tear down a strawman. What I did do was post the translations of several Greek scholars who translated Mark 11:22 as “Faith of God.” Since, according to you, “of” means “in,” I’m sure you understand and speak ancient Greek. perhaps then you should disabuse them of their error. My question still remains. If God doesn’t have faith, how can He deal to every man the measure of faith? Romans 12:3. Also, in Jude vs 3, we are admonished to contend for the faith which was once delivered to the saints. How can God deliver something to the saints which He himself doesn’t possess?
In Christ,
Aubrey Thomas
(MN: Actually, we assumed that you were defending the use of “a God kind of Faith” as it was used by Willow Boy. If you don’t agree with Willow Boy, then there is really no reason for this back and forth.
So let’s cut to the chase. Do you believe that God creates and stuff by using faith and that we can do the same thing he does if we let His faith operate through us?
By the way, you are showing a tendency to not answer questions. I asked you about wrath and destruction. You never answered. Until you do, don’t expect people to respond to anything else you may want to bring up. The Jude reference would take us in a completely different direction. Let’s finish the first discussion before you move of on Jude.
I gotta say - so far you’re not impressing me very much. )
I am defending my actual statements and what I believe the Bible really says. There are some translations that says “God kind of faith,” and it is in the margin of some Bibles. I did not hear Joel’s sermon of which you say you disagree with his “interpretation” of Mark 11:22. I’ve heard your funny remarks about what he said. I have not heard any actual quotes of his. Therefore I can’t make a judgement about whether or not his interpretation is valid. I do know this. You all subscribe to the notion that God does not have faith; He doesn’t need faith. This position is amazing since You obviously don’t have a problem with the translations I posted. Your “interpretation’ however is derived from torture. here it is: “That is, saying “having the faith of God” is not the same as saying “Worf is the son of Mogh.” That is, the phrase “faith of” doesn’t indicate ownership on the part of God. )” I have always believed that this and other similar scriptures to mean ownership. The Bible is replete with similar scriptures. The hand of God; The glory of God; The arm of the Lord; The righteousness of God, etc ,etc. Brother, how do you pick and choose which one means possession and which doesn’t? As for your comment about destruction, I’m not sure what you’re trying to say, nor do I understand how God destroying something or someone has anything to do with the discussion about His faith. Finally, I obviously believe that God has faith. He couldn’t deal or deliver it to us if he didn’t. Romans 4:17 is a good example of God using faith. He “…calleth the things that are not as though they were.” I simply believe what the Bible says–if you have God’s faith, you can speak to the mountain, believe that what you say comes to pass, not doubt in your heart, and you can have what you say. Until you post Joel’s actual statements, we are going to get anywhere. We could argue your interpretation vs his ad infinitum and not get anywhere. one more thing, I’m not trying to impress anyone. (MN: Good. I’d hate for you to be disappointed. )
In Christ,
Aubrey Thomas
(MN: As a Benevolent Dictator, I’m fairly gracious - if I do say so myself. I posted the above comment. But I will also note that Aubrey is not being overly clear in what he is saying. Does God have faith? If so, what does He have faith in? Is faith a substance? Does the phrase “faith of God” indicate the physical existence and ownership of a substance called “faith”? He does seem to believe this last one. But he also seems to believe that God has arms and legs, hands and stuff. I wonder if God has dandruff.
And how do I pick and choose? Context. Otherwise I have to believe that Jesus is shapped like a door since he says he is the door. Or I would have to believe that God actually has hands or arms when it speaks of his right hand or strong arm. Surely this is not a difficult concept for you to grasp. Or do you really believe that God is about six foot three, weighs about 2oo pounds and lives on His own planet.
Oh, and the reason I brought up the destruction is because it said “the destruction of God”. If the others indicate existence and ownership, then so should this phrase. If you are going to be consistent in your understanding of the texts (ignoring context). )
I have to agree with you Melvin. Mr. Thomas forgets that Hagin and Copeland both teach that God “used ” faith to create! Sure God “has faith.” God has healing too does that mean God needs healing? Besides that Thomas is splitting hairs trying to distinguish between “of” and “in” at Mark 23:24. Faith “in” God,faith “of” God mean the same thing. Yes Mr. Thomas, why not answer the wrath and destruction questions that Melvin posed to you? You WOFers have a skewed idea of the sovereignty of God too I might add!
(MN: To be fair, I don’t know that he is a WoFer. The thought process seems to be going that way, but I would have to hear more from him before I could be certain. )
Aubrey, allow me, if you wil, to appeal to you only from scripture alone as everyone else has TRIED to do with you as well.
First of all, you must understand that CONTEXT, SYNTAX, and other forms of interpreting the text is crucial if you are going to become acute and precise when you handle passages such as Mk. 11:22. I gave you and others who hold to this erroneous and heretical doctrine the grammatical structure and flow of that passage previously in the original language and you still have yet to understand or accept it as accurate. This is why scripture teaches us that many of us shouldn’t be teachers b/c we would be judged more severely (Jas. 3:1).
Second, you need to be very careful not to place so much stock on “man” and their interpretation of the Bible as your support to defend doctrines which are clearly against the teachings of scripture and have been championed against for centuries. Translations are just what they are-TRANSLATIONS! God has used men to transmit His word and they should always be faithful to present His word as it was intended when the original authors wrote what they wrote.
Thirdly, I’ll take a stab at your comment from Rom. 12:3 and Jude 3 and tie it into your implication of God having to have faith, but if you at least do not have some understanding of basic Greek and construction of grammar, this will be of no benefit to you.
In Rom. 12:3, the phrase “as God has alloted to each a measure of faith” is in the active voice meaning that the subject (God) is the performer of the action. In other words Aubrey, God is the one who gives faith b/c He is the source of faith. For you to assume that b/c God gives something (i.e. faith) means that He has to posses it too; implying again that God has to use or exercise faith in order for Him to accomplish His purposes is a very dangerous conclusion that you may yourself want to recant & reconsider.
Lastly, regarding Jude 3 I agree w/Mel on that one, but I will again point you to the grammatical structure of the original language to clarify my point concerning this passage. The term, “the faith” is a definite article describing what kind of faith Jude is talking about.
Jude isn’t speaking about faith that the believer needs to place his/her trust in. He is speaking about THE FAITH (not “a” faith) that every Christian needs to fight for; which is the body of biblical truth revealed and delivered to the saints in the scriptures “once for all”.
God grants repentance (2 Tim. 2:25). Does that mean that since He grants it that He needs to exercise repentance on Himself since there is so much sin and corruption going on in the world since He knew what the world would end up being like when Adam sinned? Who does God need to repent to? Who is greater than Him (Isa. 40:18; 46:5)? If God has faith, (and He doesn’t) His faith would have to be placed in someone greater than He is to accomplish His purposes (Dt. 4:35; 32:39; Isa. 44:6).
In conclusion, does God posses faith? Yes, in the sense that all things are from, to, and for Him for His glory (Rom. 11:36), but not in your understanding that he exercises it which is completely foreign to scripture.
Got it? Good
P.S. Sorry Mel for the long blog, I’ll try to do better next time.
(MN: No problem. Just a reminder though about paragraphing. )
Does God have the gift of tongues? Does he have the gift of hospitality? Does he have the gift of apostleship? What about your son or daughter — did God “have” them before he gave them to you? Just do a quick search of the phrases “God gave” and “God gives” and you’ll see that God doesn’t have to possess something in the way you are implying in order to give it.
Just a small point to be pedantic, Aubrey — “understand and speak ancient Greek”… First, it’s not ancient Greek, but Koine Greek. Ancient Greek hadn’t been in use for over 300 years by the time the NT was written.
Second, almost no NT scholar “speaks” Koine Greek, but reads and translates it.
I’ve studied Greek and I can vouch for the fact that, as eucatastrophe says below, “pistis theou” can mean faith in God, faithfulness of God, etc. Pistis means faith, trust, belief. Theos means God. The genitive ending (ou) often calls for a translation like “of ____”, but certainly does NOT demand such a translation, since there are over 20 “types” of genitive constructions.
Many of the translations you cited are either very early versions or updates of those versions. Remember that NT Greek study has advanced continuously since the Reformers first began going back to the original texts and not translating from Latin! So, of course we understand better today how best to translate various passages and constructions — we have better, older manuscripts, archaeological finds that have clarified things that people didn’t understand in the early days of translation, etc.
The bottom line is this: FAITH as a concept is meaningless apart from the OBJECT of that faith. If I really, really, really have faith in the blue dry-erase marker on my desk, that doesn’t mean that it’s going to answer my prayers!! “FAITH” is not a substance! It’s a relationship with an object. I have faith that this chair is going to hold me up. I have faith that when I press these little buttons, they’re going to make letters appear on this screen. I am relating to these objects, trusting that they’ll do what their nature requires.
In the same way, I have a relationship of FAITH with God. He has caused me, by the work of his Spirit, to TRUST him (Eph 2:8-9). Apart from trusting in Christ, I cannot relate to God. But I do trust that he will act according to his nature and promises. THAT is faith.
Dear Aubry,
It’s difficult to see the direction in which you are going. Just a couple of observations. You mentioned ablackman building and tearing down a strawman. Hmmm…First of all, you know as well as I do that in order for a strawman argument to occur a few things need to happen:
1. You have to give a misrepresentation of the opponent’s position and then refute the misrepresentation, giving off the idea that the opponent’s position has been refuted.
(Note: ablackman did not misrepresent anything you said. HE MADE A STATEMENT TO YOU ABOUT WHAT JOEL OSTEEN SAID. In his statement, Joel’s position was definitely not misrepresented, as we’ve all seen the damaging effects of his teaching on “faith”.)
2. You have to quote an opponent’s words out of context, or pick out quotes that don’t represent that person’s whole view about something. (Note: Did ablackman do this to you? Perhaps you did, by building your own strawman on the words “of” and “in” without using the scriptures you quoted in any kind of context. More in this in a minute.)
3. You have to look at the one who defends a certain position poorly, refute their argument, and then make like that person’s position is representative of all who believe that position, thus making the position appear to be defeated. (Note: Provided we don’t really know what your position is, you can’t say we meet this criteria. However, we’d sure like to know, and we’d sure like to see you expound upon it—using scripture of course. Neither did ablackman say that what you believe, is what everybody believes and then claim your position to be defeated. Go ahead and rule this one out as proof of a strawman.)
4. Inventing a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs that are criticized, such that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical. (I REALLY don’t think ablackman did this. Nuff said.)
5. Finally, you’d have to oversimplify a person’s argument, then attack the simplified version. (Note: Believe me, the refuse that Joel pumps out every Sunday is simple enough in itself. It’s simple enough for me to understand I can do without it. Unfortunately, it’s not as simple for the many MNR’s that attend his services. I don’t think anyone ever assumed you or your argument was simple.)
So, I’d be interested in knowing just what you mean by your statements. I could respond to what you said above, but I don’t think that would be fair until we know exactly where you stand. Oh, by the way, one more thing. It’s funny how you are asking how God can give something He doesn’t posess. That’s very interesting. Hmmmm…I wonder if that’s true of the many other things God gives out, like…
“Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.” (1 Kings 22:23) (Note: God gave out a LYING SPIRIT. Is that what He is? A liar?)
“Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:” (Judges 9:23)
” But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.” (1 Samuel 16:14) (Note: God sent an EVIL SPIRIT. Is that what He is? Does he have an evil spirit? Is He evil?)
“For the LORD thy God [is] a consuming fire, [even] a jealous God.” (Deuteronomy 4:24) (Note: Right now I’m gonna pull an Oprah. “What!!! God is jealous of me? God is not jealous of me! That’s not how God is!” Here’s what Oprah missed: “For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present [you as] a chaste virgin to Christ.” (2 Corinthians 11:2) If I was to just stick with Deuteronomy 4:24, maybe I’d be attending one of Oprah and Eckhart’s seminars.)
Lastly, don’t you end your messages with “In Christ”? If Christ is “in” you, doesn’t he have to “posess” the same things that YOU posess? Don’t you sin? Is Christ a sinner? Don’t you get impatient? Is Christ impatient? If He is “in” you, don’t you both share the same substance and abilities? How come you haven’t done every miracle and shown all the power that Christ showed while He was on earth if He is “in” you? Do you share a part of the hypostatic union? How come you’re not a member of the Trinity if He is “in” you? Okay Aubrey, maybe this is a stretch and I’m sure you don’t believe any of this. But if you see how misleading this could be, why didn’t you sign your messages “of” Christ instead of “in” Christ? Wow, seems like “strawmen” come a dime a dozen…
Soli Deo Gloria,
R4C
Hello, R4C:
O.K., dickkopf here sititng at his computer getting - as we say in Hawai`i (notice the grave accent correctly given) - chicken skin as you refute Aubrey’s argument.
The only reason why I would not be “ascraird” of you in a dark alley, 4RC, is because I think we are on the same side.
Nevertheless, you should be placed under armed guard; you are dangerous. I’ll throw IC, GaryV, and even Righter into the mix, here as well. Other Pimpeteers will be considered as my addled brain allows.
As always . . . in Christian love,
Peter
Aubrey,
None of these passages you cite speak of God having “faith” in the way the Joel and other WoF people argue. They imply that faith is a magical power, a positive force in the universe that we can tap into in the same way that God has tapped into it. This is a pagan, new age view of God. As I said pistis can be translated “faith” or “faithfulness.” And “pistis Theou” can be translated “faith of God”, “faith in God”, “faithfulness of God”, etc. You must look to context and common sense to determine what sense of the phrase the original author intends.
Sigh!
#1.
JO: God has great things in store for us
Kyle: Yes, but not what your implying Joel. Our great thing is eternity with Jesus Christ. If you Joel were correct in your interpretation then Sudanese Christians wouldn’t be getting a sharp scimitar to the throat and Chinese Christians wouldn’t be getting locked up and having their organs harvested.
#2.
MJ: Can you imagine how susceptible the 48,000 people who sit under him are?
Kyle: Don’t know for sure. If the Holy Ghost indwelt in them I think they would get the heck out of dodge like most of us did from this crap. I think the 48,000 are the same kind of people who watch Oprah.
#3.
MJ: What do you suppose he thinks of Oprah and her New Age witchery?
Kyle: see response to question #2.
#4.
MJ: It implies that God can use me as a conduit through which His faith flows.
Kyle: Joel like the rest of the WoF think that they are God’s anointed precious perfect little vessels who by proxy become little gods in essence. It’s as if there is something special about us, and that we are not actually depraved evil creatures. So New Age.
#5.
MJ: As do the rest of the Word of Faith wolves, Willow Boy demotes God to our level. Instead of us exercising faith in God’s faithfulness, in His wisdom, and in His perfection, we force Him to operate the same way we do, through faith.
Kyle: See response # 5
Kyle
Hey! Click on this article and let me know how the WoF/Prosperity Gospel works over in China. Wait! I thought TBN recently got into the Chinese market. Can someone please tell me why these things are still going on in China when TBN is blasted all over that country?
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=61272
Oh Wait! that’s right. You actually have to preach and follow the “true” Gospel in order to get arrested. Ok never mind.
Kyle
Hey Melvin,Freddy Price is now an “apostle?” When did this come about? Just what we need,a pompous pastor turned “apostle!” And yes indeed,Joel doesn’t have a clue!
(MN: I think it happens the end of next week, out in California. )
Here is Price using the title ahead of time. http://fkcpriceapostleoffaith.com/index.html Apparently, it comes with a fancy Coat-of-Arms Crest. The heraldry images contain crossed shepherd’s crook and key behind a shield that is quartered. Above it is a ceremonial Catholic Mitre with ribbon-like tails (the kind Catholic abbots and bishops wear). The quadrants contain images of buildings, a city skyline and a standing lion.
I have always thought that any denomination or church, high enough on its own fumes, will begin to look and act Roman Catholic. In other words, such pomposity and arrogance is in us all, given enough time, money and power.
The use of “Apostle” is designed by its user to dominate their congregations even further than they already have. Yes, they could be eventually led to persecute true believers who will not submit to the Apostle’s rulership.
Thanks for the info stan. Freddy is no more “apostle” than you,I,or Melvin is. The article says (Price) “is never one to trumpet his own achievements?!” Oh,please! Price has been bragging for decades what he has accomplished! Sheeesh!!!
Can someone tell me what’s the criteria for becoming an apostle? Me being a citizen of a less developed country an all may not be au courant with some of the practices of the more developed societies.
“Feed the flock, not on the flock.”
(MN: We’ll start with having been with Jesus Christ and taught by Jesus Christ or the risen Christ. [Paul was a little on the special side. ])
But he did see the risen Christ. And because of his circumstances he calls himself “the least of the apostles.”
But yes, Acts 1 says that the requirements for an apostle were that they spent time with Jesus during his earthly ministry and that the risen Lord appeared to them. Therefore… no more apostles today.
Ohhhh ok now I understand, so Fred Price is really veeerrrrrryyy old then. Thanks, I knew there was a simple answer.
You guys do realise my question was supposed to be sarcastic right?
“Feed the flock, not on the flock.”
Mel
As a young preacher, this site is showing me how to get the blood off my hands and get it off (Ezekiel 33) (MN: I think he means “keep it off.” ). I must preach the Word of GOD (1 Cor 1:18) and not the wof.
Preach Preacher Preach
Thank for the correction.
“Okay, let’s start with the fact that God doesn’t have faith. He doesn’t need faith. He is the creator of the universe, the source of life, the source of power. He doesn’t use faith for anything. ”
It’s ironic that the WHOLE WofF theology is based on a mistranslation of ‘Have faith IN God’.
Somehow, if you skip the grammar (which linguistically ignorant people are wont to do) and go for a word for word translation you get it to mean ‘Have faith OF God.’
Or have God’s kinda faith.
If you were to correct them on this one block of error, the whole WofF belief system falls down.
There is no magic ‘faith powers’ to use to get your hearts content.
Of course, convincing them of this is very hard to do since most people who follow such only have ‘babbling’ as a 2nd language (a few are bilingual though).
In discussing this with a couple of people myself, they went for the fallacious defense of ‘well my pastor has xx years of experience preaching, I think he knows what he’s talkin’ ’bout. (falacy, arguement from position of assumed authority).
I just respond that ‘well, he has xx years of getting it wrong then.’
If they respond with ‘well, he showed me how it was translated with the concordance’.
I respond with an actual foreign language statement, then translate it literally (sounds like Yoda-speak often) then inform them that getting an accurate translation involves more than going word for word like the pastor is doing and correct grammar and sentence structures is needed.
And I’m not even a linguistics expert…just a little fascinated with it from time to time. But, even my laymans knowledge goes to show that their pastor is a poser, a fake and an ignorant charlatan who’s just parroting something they heard on TBN and pushing it off to them as the gosple.
Sad really.
Anyway, I’ll go back to lurking now.
Oddly enough the topic of Osteen changing (repenting) comes up several times amongst my friends and I. Can you imagine if next Sunday he stepped on stage and gave a true Biblical sermon??
Do you know how many people would hear it? He commands a physical church of 30,000+ people, and who knows HOW MANY PEOPLE watch him on TV?! How awesome it would be. Lord willing it happens…
Hey Mel, this is the exact same thing that I had a “convo” with a sister who is personally related to one of the WOF preachers here in Houston a while back and boy let me tell you this dude is WELL KNOWN here. All you have to do one early Sunday morning is look up in the sky! It’s a bird! It’s a plane! No! It’s “Hell”-o-copter Man! With at least (5) churches and he runs ALL of them! Also, uhhhhhmmm, I’m a bit confused Melvin. I may be wrong so please correct me if I am (and you’re just itching to do that, LOL), but I thought Mk. 11:22 said, “Have faith IN God”. Originally, the Gk. literally says, “Have trust or faith of God”. At first glance if you are a WOFER, (which most don’t use orginal languages anyway), you would use that as proof that God has faith, but if you know the grammatical structure in the Gk, you would notice that the word “θεοῦ” (God) is in the genitive case meaning that God is the “object” of faith. In the end, you would have to discard your unbiblical notion and submit to the scripture and other related passages which clearly teaches that God is the object and source of our faith.
We are currently in the middle of an expository study of the book of Joel.
Call me simple - and perhaps I digress too much - but if you were named “Joel” and a leader of a church, wouldn’t you have done a thorough study of said book at some point in your life?
If so, how can you miss the main purpose of Joel’s prophesy which I’ve learned can be summed up in one word:
REPENT
Guess you can’t tickle your congregation’s ears with that word. Too harsh. It would be more like boxing their ears with the TRUTH. And that would hurt their ‘feelings’…
I keep thinking of a saying which was written in my late mother’s well-used Bible:
“There cannot be two centers to a circle. So, in the realm of life interests, there is but one center. It is self or Christ.”
So many flocks being led astray by pulpit wolves…
Hello, Lois:
My mother once told me that parents gave their children Christian names, so that they might aspire to something good someday: like a Joel or a Lois or even a Peter.
Mr. Osteen has failed in a preacher’s mission to call for repentance. On the other hand, you, Lois, have a “sincere faith” that bears no equivocation and is shared freely with your family, I am sure (2 Timothy 1:5).
Peter
There seems to be a concensus among the people here that God doesn’t have faith. How then do you explain Romans 12:3 “…God hath dealt to each man a measure of faith.”–and Romans 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? Perhaps some of you sages can explain to me how God can deal to us something he doesn’t have. I’m sure the poor “sheeple” at Lakewood would love to know this information.
Here are a few translations that lend credence to the “Faith of God rendering of Mark 11:22:
And Jesus answering saith to them, ‘Have faith of God; for verily I say to you, that whoever may say to this mount, Be taken up, and be cast into the sea, and may not doubt in his heart, but may believe that the things that he saith do come to pass, it shall be to him whatever he may say. Because of this I say to you, all whatever — praying — ye do ask, believe that ye receive, and it shall be to you. (Mark 11:22-24; Young’s Literal Translation)
And answering Jesus said to them, Have faith of God. For truly I say to you that whoever shall say to this mountain, Be moved and be cast into the sea, and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that what he said shall occur, he shall have whatever he said. Therefore I say to you, All things, whatever you ask, praying, believe that you shall receive them, and it will be to you. (Mark 11:22-24; Modern King James Version, © 1962-1998).
And answering, Jesus said to them, Have faith of God. For truly I say to you, Whoever says to this mountain, Be taken up and be thrown into the sea, and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says will happen, it will be to him, whatever he says. Therefore I say to you, All things, whatever you ask, praying, believe that you will receive, and it will be to you. (Mark 11:22-24; Literal Translation of the Bible)
And Jesus answering, saith to them: Have the faith of God. Amen I say to you that whosoever shall say to this mountain, Be thou removed and be cast into the sea, and shall not stagger in his heart, but be believe that whatsoever he saith shall be done; it shall be done unto him. Therefore I say unto you, all things, whatsoever you ask when ye pray, believe that you shall receive: and they shall come unto you. (Mark 11:22-24; The Douay Rheims Bible)
And Jesus, answering, saith unto them, “Have the faith of God.” Verily I say to you, whosoever says to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and cast into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says comes to pass; he shall have it. Therefore, I say to you, all things whatsoever ye pray and ask for, believe that ye received them, and ye shall have them. (Mark 11:22-23; The Worrell New Testament)
And Iesus answered, and said vnto them, Haue the faith of God. (Geneva Bible, 1587)
It would behoove you all to read the Bible before leveling criticism against other believers.
(MN: No one is saying the phrase “faith of God” is a bad translation. At least I’m not. What we are saying is the phrase “Faith of God” doesn’t mean what the WoFers say it means. That is, we are questioning the INTERPRETATION. Now, if God does have faith, what is the object of His faith? We have faith in the promises of God. The saved each have a measure of faith [Rom 12:3 - Paul is referrig to the saved, not all men.] Does God own a big box of destruction? After all Deut 7:3 says He destroyed them WITH a mighty desctruction. Was this the extra powerful brand that he used? Or maybe God keeps a big bottle of wrath in His celectial spice rack. Afterall, it says that His wrath came against some folks. Or may, just maybe, wrath is an animal since Ezra 10:14 talks about “fierce wrath.”. And of course God Ps 78:31 shows God dispensing a helping of wrath. None of these are things that one person or another owns. That is, saying “having the faith of God” is not the same as saying “Worf is the son of Mogh.” That is, the phrase “faith of” doesn’t indicate ownership on the part of God. )
Hello, Aubrey Thomas:
While one should certainly not include this writer in the company of people at Pulpit Pimps you so deftly call “some of you sages,” allow me to posit something on the subject at hand.
“Standing on the shoulders of [a] giant[…],” this Pulpit Pimpeteer provides the following from that renowned giant of Greek grammar, A.T. Robertson:
“Here again we must appeal to the root idea of the genitive as the case of genus or kind. The resultant idea is due to the context and one must not suppose that the Greek genitive means all the different English prepositions used to translate the resultant idea. Thus Mark 11:22 εχετε πιστιν ϑεου we rightly translate ‘have faith in God,’ though the genitive does not mean ‘in,’ but only the God-kind of faith. Cf. Romans 3:22.” (Robertson, A. T., A Grammar of the Greek New Testament In the Light of Historical Research, pg. 500.)
Although Robertson agrees with the “faith in God” translation, he stresses that “in” doesn’t mean “in” as we, English speakers think of it. He tells us that the genitive teaches a “genus” or “kind” and avers that Jesus’s phrase involves the “God-kind of faith.”
In the context of 2008, if this writer were to ask you, “Aubrey Thomas, are you gay?” you would probably answer to a sexual preference, but to someone stepping out of a time machine from the 1890’s, she would likely answer to having a merry, or lively mood.
We will ever be challanged when translating a word from one language to another, and then inserting our “new” word into a proper biblical context. We must, as saiko suggests, “submit to the scripture and other related passages which clearly teaches that God is the object and source of our faith.”
Standing alone, Mark 11:22 is not so clear . . . and Saiko’s advice is sagacious.
Thank you for stopping by and chatting.
Peter
God is the ’source’ of faith. (and the source of pretty much all things)
He doesn’t need to ‘use’ faith himself. He GIVES it.
Logical error there you have. You have a false assumption that God uses for Himself that which He gives to others. Don’t worry, the vast majority of humans have VERY poor logic and reasoning skills.
Most other versions of the bible do say ‘Faith, IN God’ though.
You’ll often note this oddity in comparing and contrasting different bibles. You could debate which version is actually most accurate and which isn’t.
IMO, King James and versions like it are very poor and use an outmoded form of language that many consider difficult to understand.
Which is one reason why ‘interpreters’ like to use it…they can take artistic license with it and no one can really gainsay them unless they have some education into the matter. Then, it’s just a matter of who are you going to believe? The fast talking man of gawd or the educated guy? Doncha know the man of gawd gets himself some revelations to expand his spiritual knowledge concerning these matters…which will be used to state that an earthly education into the understanding of Old English (or is it Middle English?) is irrelevant. You’ll have a hard time against that.
I constantly state that a demagogue with decent rhetoric will win more converts than a bookish intellectual.
One local WofF pastor (and many others I’ve heard) had a tendency to constantly tell his listeners “Well, this part really means xxx.” As if some new revelation popped into his head. Then use a concordance to replace words with others until you have a totally different meaning that doesn’t fit into context.
It’s like the illusionist who conducts a magic act. He has you get involved in watching his left hand while his right hand is switching things around.
One translations I heard and harp on is the “Honor thy Father…” commandment.
The pastor looked up the word ‘father’ (Pater IIRC) in his concordance and found that it could be permutated into meaning spiritual father (ie. Himself).
So now, he replaces fathers with himself (even though this throws the passage out of context) and that he should be honored too.
Of course, honoring was translated as to receive financial gifts… Do you see where thi$ i$ going?
And I won’t even get into how this father / spiritual father juxtiposition made his berating of Catholics for calling their priests ‘Fathers’ look a little hypocritical.
Yep, I sat once and listened to a sermon where nearly every passage spoken about was interpreted into something different with the magical ‘this really means…’
And his trained sheeple just ate it up.
In the end, I don’t see how you can get the ‘Faith OF God’ to even mean ‘God’s kind of faith’ or ‘faith like God has’.
And as yet, not one single human has used ‘faith powers’ to move a mountain.
As to the pastors use of ‘faith powers’…you’ll often note that they bear more resemblence to the powers an Enron exec or accountant might have used…
I would add also,God has healing does God need healing? God doesn’t need faith to do anything! He is the object of faith. Something that Osteen,Copeland,and Price do not comprehend. Evidently Aubrey Thomas doesn’t get it either! If God used faith to create the universe He then is subservient to faith! God is not dependent on faith! That is what the “WOF” teaches!
I too also saw the ‘pep talk’ given by Pastor Joel. It is right out of the teachings of Hagin, Copeland, and Dollar.
I belive that someone has already made the argument that the Greek doesn’t support the rendering of ‘Have faith of God’ in Mark 11. I have offered evidence that the context also doesn’t support this rendering either. Reading the text this way also violates one of the basic rules of proper bible intrepretation (interpret scripture in context of all other scripture)
Does the concept that faith is a force that God even God uses Biblical? No, for all of the reasons already given and the main reason is that this would mean logically that there is a force/power that is greater than God. That idea is totally and utterly refuted in the Bible!
Hence this is a false doctrine, and should NOT be preached or taught!
God Bless!
It would be nice if you did a section on the teachings of Juanita Bynum. When her catastrophe happened last year it was highlighted her personal problems but nothing really specific about her teachings. I bring this up since she’s making a comeback after that debacle and I wanted to see how bad those who support her really are.
Only one of these guys has ever repented of their heretical teaching.. read “I was wrong” by Jim Bakker
as well as “Prosperity and the apocolyspe.”
Melvin,
What exactly does “willow boy” mean? I googled it and everything but I don’t get it. Enlighten me.
(MN: Try here. )
MN, if you read my original post, I was simply offering a rebuttal to the obsurd contention by you, eucatastrophe, and ablackman that God doesn’t have faith. I was not defending nor did I mention the “God kind of faith.” Neither was I defending the word of faith people. I used the works of several translators who translated Mark 11:22 as Faith of God. (MN: If you are saying God has faith, you ARE defending the WoFers since that is exactly what they say.) I understand the phrase to mean God possesses faith. Couple that with the uncontrovertable fact that God deals and delivers to us (Christians) faith and it should be evidence enough for any intellectually honest Bible student to believe that He has faith.
(MN: It’s not incontrovertibly obvious that your statement is so. It is, however, incontrovertibly obvious that you intend to continue to make unsupported statements as though your statement of them makes it true. You ignore everything folks say and mindlessly repeat your statement. You’re done on this thread.
The rest was deleted. But I will tell you that Aubrey stated that faith is substance. )
In Christ,
Aubrey Thomas
I taught a series of Bible studies yesterday afternoon on the Book of Jude to a group of fellow young people. When I got in my exposition to the phrase “clouds without rain”, the first name that flashed across my mind was Mr. Osteen. It never ceases to amaze me how people will listen to a “pretty boy poser” who has nothing of real Biblical substance to offer to people who are dead in sins, can’t respond to the Gospel and won’t since they don’t hear the Biblical Gospel at Club Lakewood anyway.
What those people is some Spirit-filled Bible exposition to get them into the Biblical Gospel and out of the “rainless cloud” preaching of Joel “Willow Boy” Osteen
While channel surfing I just overheard him say “you don’t have to join a church or religion” what do you think that mean?
I am not a Greek scholar, so I cannot pick apart the Greek scripture in Mark 11:22. All other translations depend upon the interpretation of those who did the translating. I must admit that many English translations can be vague, and as a result can lead to conflicting interpretations among their readers such as this. As a native speaker of American English with knowledge of German and Spanish, when a question arises in a biblical translation such as this one, I resort to my other Bibles and see what they have to say on the question at hand. Then I tend to go with the consensus of the three.
My Spanish Bible, translated in 1569 by Casiodoro de Reina, and revised by Cipriano de Valera in 1602 quotes Mark 11:22 as follows: “… respondiendo Jesus, les dice: Tened fe en Dios….” This means “… have faith IN God …”
My German Bible, translated by Martin Luther in 1534 quotes Mark 11:22 as follows: “… und Jesus antwortete und sprach zu ihnen: Habt Glauben an Gott!” This means “… have faith IN God.” I also use a more modern German translation, the “Good News in Today’s German,” which quotes Mark 11:24 this way: “…Jesus antwortete: Ihr mußt nur Gott vertrauen!…” which means: “… just trust God!”
Granted, the translations of these Bibles also depends upon the interpretations of those who translated them, just like my English versions do, but the general consesus of all three translations leads me to conclude that the message is pretty clear here … “have faith IN God” … The WOF interpretation is wrong! There is nothing here that tells me that I must have the “God kind of faith” … I fell for that garbage for years when I was in a WOF church!!!! Then I started reading my Bibles !!!!
An BooBoo’s Dad:
Lange nicht gesehen. Du fehlst mir, mein Freund.
Herzliche Willkommen!
Indeed, BooBoo’s Dad, let us just trust G-d. Wouldn’t it simplify our lives?
Love,
Peter
You bet’cha it would!
Übrigens, ich bin vor kurzem bei der Uni … lerne Krankenpflege, weil meine frühere Arbeit ins Ausland versetzt worden war. Darum habe ich momentan nur selten die Zeit, Kommentare hier zu machen! Ich versuche aber, wenn ich die Zeit hab, mich hier auf dem Laufenden zu bringen.
(MN: And the spirit of Google reveals to me that the translation of this occurrence of tongues is:
)
… but alas, I am a victim of NAFTA, and when I am finished with my nursing courses, things will hopefully get better for me, job-wise. Not only that, but on 4-09-08, my town was struck by a tornado (I live in Oklahoma), and as I type, I have a 2000 lb. tree that was uprooted and came through the roof of my house. I have been waiting several days for the insurance adjuster to come look at it, but this situation is also in demand of my time. My plate is full, but I trust my Lord that the things with which I must contend are not more than I can bear. He knows what He is doing.
Love You All!
(MN: A tree through your roof? Wow. I think I would understand if your comments were a little scarce for a while. And when you add in getting a degree in nursing…. )
BBD, my prayers are with you my friend. You have a lot to deal with, but I know the God you serve is well able to turn even this to His Glory.
Thank you GV. I’ll try to keep you all up to date on it. I don’t expect to be “Walking in the Realm of the Miraculous” (an old book I read in the late 70s by K. Copeland), as I know that sometimes miracles don’t happen, but I don’t need a miracle to overcome this. Without the night seasons, we can’t fully appreciate the day. Your prayers are always appreciated though!
Excellent translation! But at the end, I said “… if I have time, I try to bring myself up to date here.” (same thing). The rest of the translation was spot on! I am impressed!
And as far as the weather goes, well that goes with the territory (of living in Oklahoma) … I am trusting God in this … like dickkopf said “wouldn’t it simplify our lives?” Without that trust in times like these, how can one go on? If I were still in the WOF, I would probably be yelling at the devil, “commanding” him to take his hands off of my circumstances” or saying “I rebuke you!” until I was blue in the face … life is so much simpler when one trusts the Lord. If it happened, it was His will for me. He brought me to it, and He will bring me through it. And if He does not, then that is His choice too. But it’s really not so bad, considering how much worse it could have been.
(MN: Don’t be too impressed. Google is a wonderful thing. The only thing I recognized was ARBEIT. And that’s because I’m a World War II buff. )