We’re to be IN the world but not OF the world. You can’t hold yourself apart from the world, but you can’t accede to their agenda.

As for working with Muslims or Jews in meeting the needs of the poor or working together on some social cause, I would not unless I had freedom to proclaim Christ (which would not likely earn me much support anyway, because it would not serve their interests……….anyone seeing a pattern here?? )

Maybe I’m being a bit simplistic, I don’t know. But here is the way I view things.

If I faithfully cling to Christ and His commands, I’m not going to have to worry about who votes for me or whose endorsement I gain or who wants to work with me on social programs. I’ll likely never have to decide whether or not I’m going to accept their money or endorsements or invitations. Why??

Because they’ll never ask me to run,they’ll never support me if I do, and they’ll never invite me onto the boards of their social change committees if I cling tenaciously to Christ.

Maybe years and years ago, when the culture was at least nominally Christian, I could cling to Christ uncompromisingly and still be sought after for such positions.

But today,with post modernity and secularism and political correctness having become the American zeitgeist, I would be marginalized out of consideration for any of the positions or opportunities we’re discussing.

Whether or not I would work with them becomes a moot point, because they would never consider working with me.

First, I’d like to thank both of you for your kind and thoughtful comments. This is what I had in mind when I began the discussion with you, Gary–sans the Oprah and Obama comments

Anyway, I hear what you’re saying now, Gary, and I’ve had some of the same thoughts as you, G2, even ciiting some of the same examples.

So, then would you say that a practicing Muslim or Jew (who worships in temple or synagogue), for instance, is an enemy of the cross? Can/should people of other faiths work together on issues, form an alliance of sorts to,for instance, combat child hunger? Do you think this a violation of scripture?

Should a Christian politician/candidate accept the support , endorsement, financial contributions of such people of different faiths? If they don’t, don’t you think that contradicts with their pledge to represent all of the citizens represented by the particular office that they’re running for?

Thanks again for the discussion, guys….

CiCi

Same goes with Cyrus…….he wasn’t actively fighting God or evangelizing for satan.

Nebuchadnezzar’s heart was turned by God as well. He wound up praising God,not cursing Him or fighting against Him.

Same with the Pharoah under Joseph. He was the one who insisted the Jews come to Goshen so they could be cared for under Joseph. Certainly no enemy of God there.

BUT,the Samaritans ARE a good example of the case I’m making. They had set up a competing temple, a competing priesthood, competing sacrifices, and actively evangelized FOR their false system against the God of Israel.

Their help was rejected because they were enemies of the Living God.

So is Oprah. She is an active, virulent, implacable enemy of God……. an evangelist for a false Christ,a false sacrifice, a false system of worship,and false “gods”.

She must be rejected for the very same reason that the Samaritans were rejected. Corrupting influence, and active war against Christ.

I’ve said repeatedly that I’m not averse to a Christian politician working with or seeking the endorsement of any entity that is not dedicated to war with Christ, or the active promotion of false “gods”, or the implementation of a social agenda that violates the Word of God.

If Obama wants to appear with and seek the endorsement of the UAW,that’s fine. Even though they do not represent Christ’s interests, they don’t actively blaspheme and teach false doctrine in an attempt to evangelize for false “gods”.

But Oprah does ALL of that. And therein lies the difference.

http://www.faithtacoma.org/content/2006-05-21-pm.aspx

Just saying thanks for bringing up the excellent questions you have thus far in the discussion, as I’ve also wondered the same thing and have discussed it elsewhere. You’re a blessing.

IMHO, if individuals are never to work with those who’re not Christians, I’d personally have a hard time renconcilling that with examples like Nehemiah, who took donations from the Persian king to build the wall of Jerusalem (Nehemiah 2:8), Isaiah, with Cyrus being God’s servant/ used by the Lord even though he was not a servant of Yahweh, to help in funding the Jew’s work of restoring Jerusalem. (Isaiah 44:28-45:6, Isaiah 44:28-45:9 ), as well as Nebuchadnezzar (Jeremiah 25:9),….or even with Joseph in Egypt/having the support of unbelieving pharoah

And then again, Zerubbabel refused the help of the Samarians in rebuilding the temple (Ezra 4:1-3). What seems to make the difference is the idea of whether the influence would be corrupting.

In Nehemiah’s case there were no strings attached, BUT Zerubbabel’s case did….& therefore the question to ask at all times is whether the donation/endorsement will hinder or aid our commitment to the Lord. The same thing, IMO, goes for government funding—as many think that the government being godless/humanistic indicates they’re enemies of the Cross and shouldn’t be cooperated with. I can see no where where there’s biblical reason for Christian organizations to not receive support from the state. I think there’s a positive biblical precedent for God’s people receiving funds from governmental sources (ex. Nehemiah rebuilding the walls of Jerusalem (Nehemiah 2:8). If and when the state’s willing to fund the Kingdom (provided there are no compromises or strings attached), PRAISE GOD.

(MN: Never take money from the state for Christian work. It doesn’t work. Besides, Christians really don’t do “Kingdom work” here on earth since our Kingdom is not of this world. Daycare centers, vocational training centers, drug treatment centers and wayward girls centers are not kingdom work. They’re nice work, but they don’t, in and of themselves, save people. Only the gospel saves people. And we neither need nor want the government’s help in presenting the gospel. )

__________________

You’re quite welcome and I hope to continue to enjoy our exchange of thoughts, ideas, and perspectives. I responded to your earlier comments above and would appreciate hearing your perspective when you get a moment.

Thanks again for your time and your kindness…

CiCi

Please know that my “ability to chew” is far greater than you might imagine and I simply choose not to display it here on this board. It is a choice that I make for what I believe is the greater good — the exchange of thoughts, ideas, and concerns of well meaning Christians in an atmosphere of at least civility, if not Christian love.

Again, at this point I am making no “argument” just posing some questions for thought and consideration (see my last comments to Gary V).

It was never my intention to argue as the scriptures teach me to be at peace with all men as much as lies within me. And to pursue a line of “argument” given the tone of the responses that I was receiving fron the moderator would not to a peaceable end.

So, if you’d like to join in the DISCUSSION that I wll hopefully be having (at least) with Gary V, by all means join us. If not, pleas don’t waste any more time mustering any empathy for my position — I’m sure that someone else’s position could use it more.

CiCi

Now,we should let her cogitate a bit and put it through the lens of Scripture for herself.

Thanks for the dialogue CiCi !!

By now, you have noticed that the Pimpeteers take Scripture pretty seriously, and quite plainly - as I muster empathy for your position - you are thinking that you have taken a bite of something that somewhat exceeds your ability to chew.

It would be helpful to yours truly, at least, if you might frame your argument with at least a couple of verses from the Bible.

Peter

Thanks for your thoughtful response. I think that you’re understanding where I’m coming from and the kinds of discussion that I’m interested in.

So, I guess in my next attempt to flesh out this issue, who or what would you say makes someone an enemy of the cross if it’s not all non-Christians? And how do we really define an alliance for a political figure? an endorsement? A contribution? Working on legislation together that we agree upon?

I hoppe that you hear my heart on this and know that I’m not trying to be argumentative–just thoughtful about how we navigate this world that we live in and manage to contribute to its betterment while we’re here and still maintain the integrity of our faith. I have some ideas, but I’d like to hear yours as well.

Is a practicing muslim an enemy of the cross? If so, can a candidate that’s a Christian accept his endorsement? Does that make it an alliance?

I think that this is a conversation that we can have about ‘politics’ without being poliltical and respecting Melvin’s wishes to avoid “politics” as such.

Thanks,
CiCi

How could I “back down” when I was not having an argument? The only thing that I said I didn’t want to discuss is two people (Oprah and Obama). I am more than willing to discuss the issues that have been raised out of that initial discussion.

And if that’s what you thought, then you did indeed misunderstand my comments.

(MN: So, as Melanie said, help us to understand. )

Thanks for having the guts for telling it as it is!!!!!!

GaryV has taken the time to respond to your question and to state his position clearly and to use scripture. No disrespect but I really wish you would take the time to respond and state your position CLEARLY. Maybe you have a point but I don’t know that because you backed down.

Please take the time to respond and state why you disagree so that we all may be edified. Thanks.

I believe youmay be missing my point though when you say this……..

“…….can a Christian who has no alliances with non-Christians be a viable candidate for office in these United States?”

I’m not talking about Christian alliances with nonChristians. I’m talking about alliances with enemies of the Cross. As a Christian I can seek the endorsement of the meat packers union even though they’re not necessarily Christian.

But I cannot as a Christian yoke myself with those who are actively fighting against, blaspheming, and demeaning my Savior.

I see those situations as entirely different.

Peace CiCi!!

Count me in. I saw her on one of the Greek channels the other day….dubbed in Greek. People here think she’s something special….I just pray that the excrement she’s teaching isn’t considered as “special” as the Word of God that’s mainly adhered to in this 99% Orthodox Country!

(MN: Orthodox = Greek Orthodox)

It seems for you that this discussion has disintegrated into one about Obama, when my intent was to prompt a discussion about the way that we address political issues and the process as Christians prompted by GaryV’s original comments regarding Oprah and Obama and his thoughts about him as a self identifying Christian accepting her support.

I really couldn’t care less who you choose to support, and I mean that with all due respect. I think if you read my comments carefully and with an open mind you will see that I have said nothing to urge anyone to vote for a particular candidate. What I have attempted to do is spark a broader discussion about politics, Christianity, issues, and how they all work or don’t work together.

But, perhaps, this is not the forum for that discussion. If not, please forgive my transgression.

All the best…. trial

CiCi

(MN: cici, it’s always fun to watch people back out of a discussion by trying to make the folks she was speaking with sound as if they misunderstood what that she was saying or that they are too dimwitted to actually follow the full orbed discussion they are trying to have. I don’t think that is the case in this discussion. I suspect that you came in with the assumption that we don’t try to live our Christianity in all aspects of our lives - politics, morals, relationships, work, entertainment, family, school, etc. You seem to think that most of the readers are Christian troglodytes who only want to hide in their caves and smash anyone who comes near them. You keep bringing in “people are free to vote for whom they wish” as though someone in the discussion said people are not. You have accused folks of being narrowly focused yet have not sought to find out what any of us think of welfare, affirmative action, confiscatory taxes, the environmental scam, drilling in ANWR or others.

No one is trying to get you to support Obama. And no one is trying to keep you from supporting Obama. We’re just trying to understand what you position is and get some idea of how you live out your Christianity.

I would much rather prefer to address the broader and I feel more profitable absract and theoretical question that I posed at the end of my previous comment.

(MN: Hey, if anyone is interested, knock yourself out. But so far you have proven too generic and unclear to really converse with. But again, knock yourself out. I suspect you are going to get an even more aggressive response from the readers than you have so far. As I said, we usually stay away from politics. You now want to move into theology. As Brer Rabbit said: Brer Fox, PLEASE don’t throw me in the brier patch. )

Of course, it’s every one’s right to vote for or against someone based upon one or a myriad of issues that they feel are important. My only hope would be that we would all consider the wide range and complexity of the issues that effect all of us at every stage of our lives (from conception to the grave) when making our decisions.

(MN: Sorry - but not all issues are of equal weight. Besides, there’s virtually nothing he is promoting that I agree with. Besides, the stuff he is considering (abortion to a receptive view of euthanasia) DOES affect us from the cradle to the grave, literally. )

My intention is not to “haggle” over an english word. I am simply to trying to fully understand your point of view before I agree or disagree with it.

I must say that I disagree, in this instance, with your characterization of the situation, yet I don’t wish to argue with you and respect your point of view and will continue to consider it thoughtfully.

(MN: I would ask that you also point out where he is mischaracterizing the relationship. )

I suppose that perhaps a good topic for thought and discussion might be what makes a “good” Christian politician/candidate and/or can a Christian who has no alliances with non-Christians be a viable candidate for office in these United States? And, if so, at what level of office and in what situation?

Instead of haggling over an English word I used as a descriptive, let’s look at what Scripture says in 2 Cor 6 which I cited above. This Scripture commands us not to be yoked to unbelievers. What does that mean??

Heterozygeo (Gr)

1) to come under an unequal or different yoke, to be unequally yoked

a) to have fellowship with one who is not an equal: 2Cor 6:14, where the apostle is forbidding Christians to have intercourse with idolaters

Is Obama having fellowship with one who is an idolater in fellowshipping with Oprah?? Emphatically,yes.

It’s no sin to Obama to have Oprah endorse him. The sin comes in Obama linking with Oprah (an idolater) to further his own desires. Why?? because endorsement runs BOTH ways.

If OJ Simpson endorsed Obama, do you think Obama would go on tour with OJ like he did with Oprah?? Why not?? because it’s a tacit approval of OJ. Same goes for Oprah.

Even leaving this all aside, how do you get around this??

2 Jn 1:9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ (Like Oprah) does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine (Like Oprah), do not receive him (or her) into your house nor greet him (And certainly don’t suck up to and align with her, and by extension her fight against Christ); 11 for he who greets (Supports in any way) him (her) shares in his (her) evil deeds.

I think Obama has done more than the forbidden greeting of Oprah the Pagan Evangelist, don’t you??

How would you feel if Obama went out with Reverend Ike, or Louis Farrakhan?? How would that be different than going out with Oprah to get votes??

Obama:”"I’ve been in contact with her (Oprah) consistently and she’s open to helping out in any way she can,” he added.

Is that not yoking with an unbeliever?? Is that not two allied for a common goal?? Oprah has opened her 50 million dollar estate to raise millions for Obama. He went. His wife went. They had pictures made. He spoke and thanked Oprah. He walked away with millions he needed. Is that not an alliance formed to see Obama put in the White House?? Is that not yoking with an idolater?? Is going to her home and schmoozing with her for votes and fawning over her before the world not going far beyond the command not to even GREET false teachers??

Is Obama a Christian or a politician first?? I think we all know the answer to that. Can A Christian yoke himself with an enemy of Christ to get what he wants?? If Obama starts making appearances with Farrakhan, would that be OK?? And if so, how is that different from Oprah??

Again,they have made an alliance, a yoking, choose the term you wish……..for the common goal of seeing Obama in the White House. And anyone who can betray Christ by cozying up to one of Christ’s most virulent enemies I want no part of, lest I then partake of THEIR evil.