Is this not the very spirit of the antichrist ever growing in our midst? JO has nothing on OW in terms of the number of sheeple being led astray. With so much importance placed on existentialism and gnosticism, it totally wreaks of old age heresy. She denies the Word of God and encourages her audience (read followers) to create idol gods. Christ made it quite clear in John 14:6 there is only one way. Obviously, neither Tolle or Winfrey have read their bibles lately. It makes the commandment to “mark these” ever so significant in these last days.
And you thought the quiet apprehension in the backside of your brain, and the palpable feeling of “Man, my ears are burning” were due to Satan and his minions . . . it was just us Pulpit Pimpeteers talking ’bout you while you were loafing.
Ahhhhhhhh………and a great time of loafing it was indeed. It took me about 1 night though before I was having to fight the urge to run down to the concierge desk and access the courtesy computer. I missed you guys!!
Welcome back, GaryV. Hope you had a time of real R&R. The wife and I are headed to do the same next week and boy am I looking forward to it (read really need the rest)!
I love you Mav!! I gave you an opening to say “You should know you old pulpit pimp” but you just keep being gracious. I wanna be like you when I grow up!!
Comment by Doesn't Know Enough to Type His Name In
2008-04-17 16:52:24
Anyone can put a few clips together and skip over things to make anything look anyway at all. Since I did not see the whole interview from beginning to end, I am not swayed one way or the other by a collection of clippings. God is different things to different people although there is only one son, Jesus Christ. No ONE person knows everything there is to know about God the father. Therefore, be careful whom you judge lest ye be judged. I don’t have time to be distracted from my walk and relationship by what some have to say about other people. If you believe someone is wayward then pray for them sincerely not judge and criticize; that is not your place. This blog does nothing for futhering of the gospel of Jesus Christ. It seems to be a den where people gather to “talk” rather than do. Everyone needs to realign themselves with God not man and seek His wisdom and knowledge. Only God Himself can reveal Himself to man, if He so chooses. As I said before, NO MAN knows every part, aspect, characteristic, etc of God so be careful in all things and walk in love, for God is truth and love.
(MN:That was the best example of a cluelessly expressed Christianese that I have heard in a long time. I think you managed to slip in most of the inanities the PimpDefs come here with - again. )
Honestly, why is she any different from anyone else that denies the truth. In true sincerity I ask what will be the nature of the prayer……….. what would the supplication be and is anyone deserving of the same amount of attention.
I know the scriputre reference for praying for those in authority (1Tim 2) but what REALLY makes Oprah more deserving than someone else of a day of prayer.
Maybe someone else has already stated this but, I’m just not seeing the consistency.
In my humble opinion
I agree , but i do think the devil is using her because of the influence she has and the power she has from television to confuse. Its funny because she always want to touch on those type of subjects , dealing with God. Shes not stupid , she has too many people to please to follow Christ the road is too narrow , she needs a wide gate. Im tired of hearing about all these rules you have to follow in Chrisianity, some real saved folf love and take pleasure in following Christ.
If I may,
Oprah, through her syndication, reaches millions of women and a handful of men daily. For one hour a day, they tune into her and everything she says. I barely give God an hour a day, and it is not purely prayer time as I am counting reading blogs like this as part of His hour.
That level of exposure is power. She can indoctrinate. She is evangelizing for the enemy. She reaches millions daily.
And they are buying into it, in droves.
That is why OW needs a battalion of prayer partners working for her salvation. Just turn the table. Imagine if she were saved. Would she spend as much energy on Christ as she has on ET? The potential for good is as enormous as her current reality of carnage.
Merlin I have question, lets say that she turns her life over to Christ. Do you think that she would be allowed to continue her syndication as she shares her testimony of being saved through Jesus and condemning sin? I doubt it.
Furthermore, along with Oprah we might as well pray for Osteen as well, since he (like Oprah) is deceived by the devil and has a large following, same with Jakes, Price.. and others of the same ilk. I wouldn’t want to seem that we are being a respecter of persons - praying for one deceived individual and not considering any of the others. Acts 10: 34-35
(MN: We’ve actually talked about this in a very recent posting. GIve the thread there a read.)
All this talk about Oprah’s salvation, yeah, it’s good to pray for her and all, HOWEVER, on the same token, I think Oprah knowingly knows that she’s sold out against the gospel, and really thinks little of any christian prayers or appeals.
In other words, from where she’s standing, she’s not doing what she’s doing, out of ignorance…
(MN: Agreed. But we are not trying to convince her to change. We are praying to God that He would open her heart even as He opened Lydia’s heart. Remember, the unsaved are blind and enemies of God. Sitting in a Baptist church doesn’t change that.)
Agreed. But we are not trying to convince her to change. We are praying to God that He would open her heart even as He opened Lydia’s heart. Remember, the unsaved are blind and enemies of God. Sitting in a Baptist church doesn’t change that.
My response:
Well, I hope people will feel the same if Obama or Hilary, win the white house…
(MN: Sure, if Obama or Hillary win the Whitehouse, I would pray for them. In fact, I pray for them now. I pray for McCain too. And Bush, etc.)
Seekerman, I agree with you; I also feel that Oprah knows she is wrong. Something tells me that she does not believe half that stuff she promotes and that she is still confused about her own life and why God created her. I see fustration in her eyes; yet since she led so many people down the path of destruction, she might feel that she can not doubt any of that stuff now because if she do she will lose millions.
Yes we really need to pray for Oprah.
Also, did you see the women who is dying of cancer in that Oprah episode. I felt so bad for the women because she was telling Oprah that “she is not afraid to die anymore for she knows she will have eternal life” and she thanked Oprah and Oprah’s false prophet for opening up her eyes to the meaning of the scriptures when Jesus said He is the truth and the light…..” their interpretation of that scripture is false by the way.
I really appreciate this piece, especially the blurb on how she actually denies Jesus as the only way. It was also disturbing how she purposefully interpreted God as a jealous God as being jealous OF her instead of jealous FOR her. It really reveals her level of conceit, self-aggrandizement and arrogance, even at a much earlier age.
However, is it just me, or are you tired of the facts being tied to a political agenda? I’m an independent, neither democrat or republican, but why not just focus on Oprah’s heresy and leave Obama out of it?
(MN: Given that I want to avoid politics as far as is possible, I won’t address the idea of my politics refecting my morals and ethics, not my party affiliation. )
Yeah L. Davis. I’m with you on her explanation on God being a jealous God. She was way off base on that interpretation. This could be dangerous. The numbers of her audience is staggering; close to 26 million folks tune it weekly. Oprah has more influence on this culture than any church or any well know pastor has today. It’s the unsaved and biblical illiterate that will buy into this mess. This could turn out to be the largest cult we’ve ever seen. She will lead her followers with this garbage and her followers lead other people down the wrong path and so on. There’s no need for a new way because the way has already been laid ( Corinthians 3:11). Man, I really feel sorry for her. She should get with a small bible study group with real believer before it’s too late.
AMEN! L. Davis and Bro NateWeldon; especially with reference to God being “jealous of her.” This is ignorance gone to seed… Indeed, she should get with a small Bible study group with true believers before it’s too late!
God is no respecter of person. I am not going to spend
any extra time praying for this New Age Witch.
Oprah has been exposed to the true Gospel of Jesus
Christ and she has exercised her freewill to opt for the
dark side.
I will pray for the foolish who are caught up in her new
age nonsense that they will be delivered by God from
her Satanic slickerism.
Ophrah is one of many anti-Christs (in place of Christ)
who are leading people astray along with Joel Osteen,
Fred Price, Creflo Dollar, K. Copeland and a hosts of
others. These people have been exposed to the true
Gospel and have made a conscious decision to renounce
the Lordship of Christ and follow their own “gospel”
as it were.
I am not shocked by these happenings. It is part and
parcel of latter day falling away. Satan has his imps and
tricksters and fakirs doing their thing to woo people
away to eternal perdition.
Oprah deserves no special “mass” or “hail marys” or
fasting more than a Joe Smith or a Mary Jones down the block who are not born again.
Ohrah has a spirit of pride and arrogance and money
that is telling her that she is right. Please notice that
over time, she is getting deeper and deeper into this
new ago voodoo. She is going from delusion to delusion
delusion. I believe Satan has elevated her to a “territorial
spirit” as to influence and power and we who have
discernment will and should take every opportunity to
combat her new age nonsense with the Word of God
and especially John 14:6.
Ophrah will not surround herself or go near anything that is genuine of Christ. Her spirit won’t allow it.
She is both a captive and is taking other captives.
Don’t be fearful or alarmed at these developments. We
are seeing before our very eyes the rise of strong
Satanic influences in the media…but our God is able
and we are on the winning side!
The reason I think we should fast and pray on O’s behalf is because of her influence on millions of people. Note that many people will vote for Obama just because O is endorsing him. O is not beyond the Lord’s reach. We shouldn’t give up on O or the rest of the unsaved walking in darkness.
My understanding is that in Hebrew, the vowels are not used when writing God’s name. Many do this today in English. Someone correct me or add to this if I’m wrong.
it’s always so strange to me that people actually look to Oprah for spiritual guidance. I guess it’s just something I’ll never get. I like her show for decorating tips and if a celeb that I like is going to be on there but spirituality..not so much, not at all.
Oprah and her new age propoganda is really starting to hit home for me. I was sitting in the chair yesterday getting my ‘do done and my hair stylist commented that she bought the Eckart Tolle book.
Now what was I supposed to say? My hair stylist isn’t a Christian…at least she has never made a profession of faith in my presence. I said nothing… well actually I changed the subject. I am paraphrasing but that verse that says “always being ready to give an answer for the hope within you” came to mind. Well she wasn’t asking me anything so I kept my mouth shut. What could I have said?
This Oprah madness is spreading like wildfire. I am afraid that a family member is going to pop up with that book. What am I to do? Yes, let’s pray for Oprah.
Hi Melanie…
I would have used that as an introduction to a
conversation piece asking your hairdresser what is
it that she found interesting about the book and
why is she reading it?
Then you could have indicated that a book that you
read…the Bible speaks about moral absolutes that
neither Tolle or Ophrah agree to. Simply mention
and quote either John 14:6 and Acts 4:12 and you
will have enough discussion points to fill an hour or
two. Remember: evangelism is sharing the Word of
God or your testimony and leaving the results to
the Holy Spirit. Some will accept it and some will
curse you. Keep your meekness and joy and realize
that you are not wrestling against flesh and blood
but with powers and principalities in the heavens. I
also suggest that you read the book and mark it
up for “talking points” vs. the Word of God. The
Word says that we are to be able to give a reason or
a defense for the hope that we have within us.
Your testimony is sufficient. We are not talking about
drama or word study skills…simply the message of
God in Jesus drawing men and women back to him
due to what Christ did for us at Calvary.
Lafe, Thank you. For the moment, I listened to what she was saying and I’ll continue to listen for that open door to share the gospel. She hasn’t read the book yet so Lord willing I’ll remember to ask her about the book. Interesting….I was just thinking that I needed to find a new hairdresser because she is so far away from where I live now….Hmmm
The fields are white unto harvest.
I had an interesting conversation with a new age guy, at least that is what I think he was. He was all excited about that documentary where some guy allegedly found Jesus’ bones. Now I didn’t watch it because I had no interest and I don’t know that I could have stomached the madness. (I think I have been listening to Pastor Coleman too much lately hence my use of the word “madness”.)
Long story short, I asked him did the documentary conclusively prove that they found the bones of Jesus? He said no. Then we talked about the Dan Brown book. I asked him when you want to research something what is the best source material–secondary or primary. He said “primary”. Then I went on to tell him that the Dan Brown book was based on these “gospels” written hundreds of years later. Whereas the gospels in the Bible are eyewitness accounts and written soon after the events occured. He said nothing in response. NOw at that point should I have closed the deal and given him the gospel? I figured if he wanted to talk more the opportunity would come up. It never did because the office had layoffs and he was let go. I pray a seed was laid.
Hmmm…now I think I will pray for another opportunity to talk to my hair stylist about the Tolle book.
Oprah is no fool. She knows full well what she has done and doesn’t care. She has turned to doctrines of her own heart, which allows her to live as she pleases and she is teaching this to countless millions. All walking blindly but knowingly down the path away from Jesus towards Satan listening to the same lie that he has been telling since Adam and Eve:….’you will not die’
What we have to realise is how dangerous celebrities are. They have an agenda and express via talk-shows like Oprah and Music like Kanye West. Kanye’s mother wrote in her book “Raising Kanye”:
“We’d go every Sunday to Christ Universal Temple in Chicago. I liked the church because the minister, Johnnie Coleman, PREACHED PROSPERITY. I had belonged to Hillside Church, which was very similar, before moving to Atlanta, and would take Kanye there. Barbara King, the minister there, was also a very SPIRITUAL and PROGRESSIVE thinker. I wanted Kanye to be steeped in that kind of exposure to God. I NEVER BOUGHT into the fire-and-brimstone type of religion or one that was REPRESSIVE. Certainly, I would not expose Kanye to that. But I felt compelled to see to it that a SPIRITUAL component was a key part of Kanye’s upbringing[Pg.139]”.
Donda West goes on to talk about how Kanye held a rap concert at his father’s youth revival which made him late for a concert with Usher… “I was unhappy that Kanye was not on time for the concert, it was his ethical and contractual obligation. But I learned later that 300 YOUNG PEOPLE GAVE THEIR LIVES TO CHRIST the night Kanye did “Jesus Walks” at the youth revival[Pg.138]”.
Keep in mind he uses profanity (for feces) and racial slang (N-word) in this song. Eventhough I’m sure he rapped the radio version when He’s a “Man of Gawd” and the explicit version every other day.
Donda West goes on and on of how anointed this song was “I knew that in 31 years of teaching, I had not impacted young people the way this single record would. It would also touch the old and everyone in between.
I didn’t thnk about it in the car that day, but “Jesus Walks” would also BRING MANY to Christ. Although there ARE MANY PATHS to right living, NOT JUST CHRISTIANITY, following the teachings of Jesus IS ONE of them(Pg.137).
Oprah’s Church is bigger than we think!
May His Kigndom Come,
Avishalom
P.S. Yes there is much more garbage like that in her book including a vision of “ENERGY” that Kanye called Jesus which was a sign that he has a special relationship with Christ, see page 140.
Ok I was following the whole video until the very end. What do her false teachings and confused way of thinking have to do with Barack Obama? Am I missing a Christian memo or something?
I am SO thankful that Oprah is willing to share the truth. Those who don’t like the message will always attack both the message and the messenger. She is above that nonsense. The bit about Obama at the end shows that the person putting this together really was angeling to make this political. In the end, we don’t care! Oprah is true to herself and a wonderful role model for the world. Would that you were more like her!
I doubt that you will envy Oprah as much when she stands before God. She may be a nice enough person, but then again hell is filled with nice people who deny Christ and His Words.
Thankful, what is the “truth” that Oprah is telling? Just because someone does good and generous things when they can afford to doesn’t make them righteous in the sight of God. It’s like Charles Manson who murdered a pregnant woman, but sent a carved wooden box and letter to a what he thought was a dying girl. Good works gets you nowhere with God. You say Oprah speaks the truth, but I counteract that with Jesus- John 18:37-38a “Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice. 38 Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault [at all].”
Jesus said that He bears witness of the truth. What truth would that be? John 14:6 “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” He is a witness of His salvation to mankind. And you know what else? The Holy Spirit bore and bears witness to that fact (attested through the Apostles and on down through the church through the years). Jesus is the truth and to deny Christ is to deny the truth. And you can’t go back and say anything about Jesus meaning or being something other tahn what the Bible states because all we know about Christ comes from the Bible.
Now back to Pilate, he asked the question, “What is truth?” But you know what, he didn’t even stick around for the answer. He asked a question, but didn’t really want to know. Just like Oprah. They both wanted to believe what they wanted to believe. Pilate in his gods and Oprah with hers. I hope you see where I am going with this? Truth is in Christ alone, dictated by what is in the Bible. If you can’t believe the bible, then you are just as lost as they are.
And you are right about one thing, Oprah is a wonderful role model to the “world”- not to a Christian.
Oh and one more thing- you said “Those who don’t like the message will always attack both the message and the messenger.” Funny you should say that, as far as I remember the world didn’t like Christ’s message and so they killed the messenger. Oprah isn’t dead from what I see. Guess she isn’t that disliked, huh?
Thankful, I didn’t say any of this to be demeaning and I hope you don’t take it that way. But I believe in the truth of Christ taught through the exegetical exposition of the bible. I will stand up for that anywhere because I know Christ to be the truth and I want all those who are to know Christ come into that true knowledge.
Jen,the Bible Barak Hussein Obama claims to believe says this;
2Cor 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers (like Oprah): for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial (Or Oprah’s false “gods”)? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel (Like Oprah)?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols (Like Oprah’s)? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
The fact that Obama is willing to toss aside the Word of God in so facile a manner to hook up with a pagan for political gain tells us some important things.
1) He is either abjectly ignorant of the Word, or he is not really a Christian but an unethical political pimp pandering to voters, or both.
2) He is willing to trample the Blood of Christ underfoot in order to gain voters by appealing to a pagan like Oprah (which means he’s not saved), or he agrees with Oprah’s theology (which means he’s not saved).
3) If he’s willing to sell out Christ for a few votes,who precisely WON”T he sell out among US??
I’m sorry, I think your last comment about Obama tossing the Word of God aside is just a bit out of line and terribly unfair. I doubt that any of us have had a conversation with the senator about his beliefs about the Bible that we consider to be the Word of God, so we really can’t say that he has “tossed it aside.”
But, more importantly, Obama is running to be the President of the United States of America — not the pastor of the church you or I might belong to. There are citizens in this country that have all kinds of beliefs — Christian and non-Christian — whether we like it or not. Politicians must represent and lead the nation and all of its citizens which are all guaranteed the fredom to practice whatever religion they choose.
So is your suggestion that he only receive support from Christians? If he receives support and votes from Jews is he “selling out Christ?”
(MN: While I don’t want to get involved in politics I can’t leave this alone.
Homosexuality - He okay with it. It’s out of line with the Bible
Homosexual marriage - He’s okaywith it. It’s out of line with the Bible
Abortion - He’s okay with it. It’s out of line with the Bible
Partial birt abortion - He’s okay with it. It’s out of like with the Bible
He has tossed aside (if he ever held to them to begin with) the Teachings of the Bible. And yes, a person can believe what they want. And I can vote for them or not as I choose. And if Obama claims to be a Christian yet tosses aside some of the essentials, why would I want to vote for a person who does that?
I would have less trouble voting for Romney that Obama. )
Again…this begs the question does a Christian running for public office only accept support from those who are Christian. I am a Christian, and hold to my beliefs dearly and do my best to live by them. However, I do not live in a theocracy and I respect other people’s right to have their own religious beliefs and interpretations and live and participate in this society as long as law abiding citizens.
(MN: No cici, the question is not “Do they have a right to their religious beliefs?” The question is should you vote for a man or woman who would press for social actions that are contrary to your religious beliefs?” As an example, he is very much in favor of maintaining abortion, even partial birth abortion, as a right. Should you vote for the man who is opposed to this or the man who is for it? )
I think what irks me the most is that Christians tend to focus on very narrow issues when it comes to determining a politician’s “legitimacy” as a Christian. (MN: I’m not questioning his legitimacy as a Christian. I’m questioning his ability to best represent my views and values, even if I were a Muslim. But even if I were, would I be wrong to question his “legitimacy” as a Christian if he was a practicing homosexual? ) There’s much more to Christianity than opposing homosexuality and abortion. (MN: Certainly. But you can’t get to the more unless you oppose those. After all, there is more to Christianity than accepting Jesus Christ as your savior. There is more to Christianity than accepting the Bible as the word of God. But at the same time, there isn’t much point to the rest of being a Christian without these. ) And again, I say that you don’t know what he holds to be true for his personal beliefs. I have heard him say that he is opposed to homosexual “marriage”. I don’t know what you mean by being “okay” with it. (MN: I have yet been able to see the difference between a “Civil Union” and a marriage. The only difference is the name. ) But, maybe I’m like him in that I’m “okay” with it because we live in a free country. And I definitely expect people to be “okay” with the choices that I make to live my life as a Christian and respect and protect my right to do so. (MN: Actually, from reading what you have said so far, I suspect we are saying two different things. Let’s clarify:
1. Do you believe homosexuality is wrong?
2. Do you believe abortion is wrong?
If you answer to either of these is “no” then I have no intention of spending more time discussing the issue with you. )
While the Word of God is very clear and simple, our world is not. There is poverty, war, exploitation, greed, etc….running rampant. All of which are worthy of much deeper thought, consideration, and discussion than it is given by most of us.
I’m afraid that I don’t know how to insert my comments into yours as you obviously know how to do, so I must respond in a seperate space to your questions.
Yes, I believe that homosexuality and abortion are wrong. But, nevertheless, please don’t feel compelled to spend any more of your time discussing the issue with me.
As I said before, the President of the United States must represent all of its citizens regardless of their religious beliefs while remaining true to all of his own. As Christians we are called to be concerned about many things and the right and wrong of them. In the times and society in which we live inwhich people have the ability to believe or not believe anything they choose it will be very difficult for any Christian to represent all of the views of all of those that vote them into office. That is why we should all be prayerful and mindful of who we vote for and not simply buy into the hype of who’s the “Christian” candidate based upon a select one or two emotional hot-button issues.
(MN: Sorry cici - a view of abortion or homosexuality is not simply a matter of religious beliefs any more than a view of murder is simply a religious belief. That is, I don’t have to be a Christian to believe that Murder is wrong. Neither do I have to be a Christian to believe that abortion is wrong. No one is saying a person has to be a Christian to represent all my views. Neither am I saying that a person has to represent all my views before I’ll vote for him. But I do believe even you have some matters that would preclude you from voting for someone. For instance, if you are Black, you would likely be hard pressed to vote for an avowed racist, no matter their stand on any other areas. I give a person the right to be a racist. But I will exercise my right to vote against him even if it’s for a narrow concern. Being narrow makes the matter no less critical. )
(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by cici
2008-04-27 22:12:55
Melvin,
I believe that you are the one that linked the issues of abortion and homosexuality to the Bible and Christianity, not me. (MN: In a manner of speaking. I brought them up because of this statement of yours: However, I do not live in a theocracy and I respect other people’s right to have their own religious beliefs and interpretations and live and participate in this society as long as law abiding citizens. In saying this, you made it seem as if the things I disagree with Obama on are purely religious. I want to make sure you understand that they are not purely religious.)
Of course, it’s every one’s right to vote for or against someone based upon one or a myriad of issues that they feel are important. My only hope would be that we would all consider the wide range and complexity of the issues that effect all of us at every stage of our lives (from conception to the grave) when making our decisions.
(MN:Sorry - but not all issues are of equal weight. Besides, there’s virtually nothing he is promoting that I agree with. Besides, the stuff he is considering (abortion to a receptive view of euthanasia) DOES affect us from the cradle to the grave, literally. )
Comment by cici
2008-04-27 23:36:08
Melvin,
It seems for you that this discussion has disintegrated into one about Obama, when my intent was to prompt a discussion about the way that we address political issues and the process as Christians prompted by GaryV’s original comments regarding Oprah and Obama and his thoughts about him as a self identifying Christian accepting her support.
I really couldn’t care less who you choose to support, and I mean that with all due respect. I think if you read my comments carefully and with an open mind you will see that I have said nothing to urge anyone to vote for a particular candidate. What I have attempted to do is spark a broader discussion about politics, Christianity, issues, and how they all work or don’t work together.
But, perhaps, this is not the forum for that discussion. If not, please forgive my transgression.
CiCi
(MN:cici, it’s always fun to watch people back out of a discussion by trying to make the folks she was speaking with sound as if they misunderstood what that she was saying or that they are too dimwitted to actually follow the full orbed discussion they are trying to have. I don’t think that is the case in this discussion. I suspect that you came in with the assumption that we don’t try to live our Christianity in all aspects of our lives - politics, morals, relationships, work, entertainment, family, school, etc. You seem to think that most of the readers are Christian troglodytes who only want to hide in their caves and smash anyone who comes near them. You keep bringing in “people are free to vote for whom they wish” as though someone in the discussion said people are not. You have accused folks of being narrowly focused yet have not sought to find out what any of us think of welfare, affirmative action, confiscatory taxes, the environmental scam, drilling in ANWR or others.
No one is trying to get you to support Obama. And no one is trying to keep you from supporting Obama. We’re just trying to understand what you position is and get some idea of how you live out your Christianity.
Comment by cici
2008-04-28 17:49:09
Melvin…
I am not backing out of anything. I simply do not want to discuss two individuals– Obama and Oprah– any longer because I do not feel that it makes for a profitable discussion. (MN:Yes. And that’s called backing out. But you are certainly free to do exactly as you wish. ) I have accused no one on this board in particular of narrowing their focus. (MN:As I said the first time you said this, I am not questioning his legitimacy as a Christian. His policies define that. I am questioning his ability to represent me when he holds so aggressively to some really ungodly principals. As I said, I would have less trouble with Romney than I do Obama, and Romney is anything BUT a Christian. ) What I did say is that the “traditional” “Christian” political agenda has been narrow in it’s focus on homosexuality and abortion a la “The Christian Coalition”, etc…. I made no assumptions about you personally nor your readers.
And if that’s what you thought, then you did indeed misunderstand my comments.
CiCi, you may want to go back through Obama’s own words on the subject of his beliefs.
HE is the one who claimed that he was a Christian, correct?? Well, since he has identified himself as a Christian,he has bound himself by the Word of God through which faith itself comes. You cannot have one without the other.
Jesus said in Jhn 14:15 “If ye love me, keep my commandments.”
Those commandments are contained in the Word of God, and the Word commands Obama (since he claims he is a Christian) just as it commands you and I…..
2Cor 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers (like Oprah): for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial (Or Oprah’s false “gods”)? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel (Like Oprah)?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols (Like Oprah’s)? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate (from Oprah), saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.”
Has he done as his Master commanded?? Or has he tossed aside the commands of the Master and allied himself with an enemy of the Cross to gain votes??
The fact is, if he had cozied up to some political power base rather than to Oprah, I’d be fine with that. Politics is politics.
But Oprah is not about politics. She’s about “spirituality” primarily, and she’s a heretic who is leading untold millions into deception and rebellion against God. She’s a woman who is actively and aggressively using every tool in her considerable arsenal to fight AGAINST Christ. She has stated repeatedly that Christ is not the only way to God, and she promotes Eastern and New Age philosophies that worship other “gods”, eschew the concepts of sin, repentance, Blood Atonement, righteousness, the depravity of man, the Holiness of God, heaven, hell, the judgment to come, and the Deity of Christ.
Can I ever support anyone who willingly allies himself with a rabid and relentless enemy of the Savior Who bled and died for me?? No.
2 Jn 1:9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ (Like Oprah) does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine (Like Oprah), do not receive him (or her) into your house nor greet him (And certainly don’t suck up to and align with her, and by extension her fight against Christ); 11 for he who greets (Supports in any way) him (her) shares in his (her) evil deeds (/b>.
Obama has now made himself a partaker in Oprah’s evil deeds by aligning with her. He is every bit as responsible as Oprah for the millions being deceived through her war against Christ.
We can’t dismiss Oprah’s beliefs,because her beliefs are what makes Obama’s use of her a sin.
Instead of haggling over an English word I used as a descriptive, let’s look at what Scripture says in 2 Cor 6 which I cited above. This Scripture commands us not to be yoked to unbelievers. What does that mean??
Heterozygeo (Gr)
1) to come under an unequal or different yoke, to be unequally yoked
a) to have fellowship with one who is not an equal: 2Cor 6:14, where the apostle is forbidding Christians to have intercourse with idolaters
Is Obama having fellowship with one who is an idolater in fellowshipping with Oprah?? Emphatically,yes.
It’s no sin to Obama to have Oprah endorse him. The sin comes in Obama linking with Oprah (an idolater) to further his own desires. Why?? because endorsement runs BOTH ways.
If OJ Simpson endorsed Obama, do you think Obama would go on tour with OJ like he did with Oprah?? Why not?? because it’s a tacit approval of OJ. Same goes for Oprah.
Even leaving this all aside, how do you get around this??
2 Jn 1:9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ (Like Oprah) does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine (Like Oprah), do not receive him (or her) into your house nor greet him (And certainly don’t suck up to and align with her, and by extension her fight against Christ); 11 for he who greets (Supports in any way) him (her) shares in his (her) evil deeds.
I think Obama has done more than the forbidden greeting of Oprah the Pagan Evangelist, don’t you??
How would you feel if Obama went out with Reverend Ike, or Louis Farrakhan?? How would that be different than going out with Oprah to get votes??
Obama:”"I’ve been in contact with her (Oprah) consistently and she’s open to helping out in any way she can,” he added.
Is that not yoking with an unbeliever?? Is that not two allied for a common goal?? Oprah has opened her 50 million dollar estate to raise millions for Obama. He went. His wife went. They had pictures made. He spoke and thanked Oprah. He walked away with millions he needed. Is that not an alliance formed to see Obama put in the White House?? Is that not yoking with an idolater?? Is going to her home and schmoozing with her for votes and fawning over her before the world not going far beyond the command not to even GREET false teachers??
Is Obama a Christian or a politician first?? I think we all know the answer to that. Can A Christian yoke himself with an enemy of Christ to get what he wants?? If Obama starts making appearances with Farrakhan, would that be OK?? And if so, how is that different from Oprah??
Again,they have made an alliance, a yoking, choose the term you wish……..for the common goal of seeing Obama in the White House. And anyone who can betray Christ by cozying up to one of Christ’s most virulent enemies I want no part of, lest I then partake of THEIR evil.
My intention is not to “haggle” over an english word. I am simply to trying to fully understand your point of view before I agree or disagree with it.
I must say that I disagree, in this instance, with your characterization of the situation, yet I don’t wish to argue with you and respect your point of view and will continue to consider it thoughtfully.
(MN: I would ask that you also point out where he is mischaracterizing the relationship.)
I suppose that perhaps a good topic for thought and discussion might be what makes a “good” Christian politician/candidate and/or can a Christian who has no alliances with non-Christians be a viable candidate for office in these United States? And, if so, at what level of office and in what situation?
(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by cici
2008-04-27 23:26:43
I am done with the issue Oprah and Obama. As I am not privy to their private conversations and do not know the details of that relationship other than what I have read and heard in the media, I really don’t feel any further discussion of that issue is warranted or profitable in this case. As I said, I disagree with Gary V’s characterization (you added ‘mis’) of the relationship based on my limited knowledge of it and in the context of the political arena. Period. My prior posting speaks for itself.
I would much rather prefer to address the broader and I feel more profitable absract and theoretical question that I posed at the end of my previous comment.
(MN:Hey, if anyone is interested, knock yourself out. But so far you have proven too generic and unclear to really converse with. But again, knock yourself out. I suspect you are going to get an even more aggressive response from the readers than you have so far. As I said, we usually stay away from politics. You now want to move into theology. As Brer Rabbit said: Brer Fox, PLEASE don’t throw me in the brier patch.)
Comment by GaryV
2008-04-28 01:09:44
That’s cool CiCi……I respect the fact that you may disagree, but I wonder on what grounds.
I believe youmay be missing my point though when you say this……..
“…….can a Christian who has no alliances with non-Christians be a viable candidate for office in these United States?”
I’m not talking about Christian alliances with nonChristians. I’m talking about alliances with enemies of the Cross. As a Christian I can seek the endorsement of the meat packers union even though they’re not necessarily Christian.
But I cannot as a Christian yoke myself with those who are actively fighting against, blaspheming, and demeaning my Savior.
I see those situations as entirely different.
Peace CiCi!!
Comment by Cushie
2008-04-28 09:32:33
GaryV
Thanks for having the guts for telling it as it is!!!!!!
Comment by cici
2008-04-28 18:04:18
Hi Gary,
Thanks for your thoughtful response. I think that you’re understanding where I’m coming from and the kinds of discussion that I’m interested in.
So, I guess in my next attempt to flesh out this issue, who or what would you say makes someone an enemy of the cross if it’s not all non-Christians? And how do we really define an alliance for a political figure? an endorsement? A contribution? Working on legislation together that we agree upon?
I hoppe that you hear my heart on this and know that I’m not trying to be argumentative–just thoughtful about how we navigate this world that we live in and manage to contribute to its betterment while we’re here and still maintain the integrity of our faith. I have some ideas, but I’d like to hear yours as well.
Is a practicing muslim an enemy of the cross? If so, can a candidate that’s a Christian accept his endorsement? Does that make it an alliance?
I think that this is a conversation that we can have about ‘politics’ without being poliltical and respecting Melvin’s wishes to avoid “politics” as such.
Just saying thanks for bringing up the excellent questions you have thus far in the discussion, as I’ve also wondered the same thing and have discussed it elsewhere. You’re a blessing.
IMHO, if individuals are never to work with those who’re not Christians, I’d personally have a hard time renconcilling that with examples like Nehemiah, who took donations from the Persian king to build the wall of Jerusalem (Nehemiah 2:8), Isaiah, with Cyrus being God’s servant/ used by the Lord even though he was not a servant of Yahweh, to help in funding the Jew’s work of restoring Jerusalem. (Isaiah 44:28-45:6, Isaiah 44:28-45:9 ), as well as Nebuchadnezzar (Jeremiah 25:9),….or even with Joseph in Egypt/having the support of unbelieving pharoah
And then again, Zerubbabel refused the help of the Samarians in rebuilding the temple (Ezra 4:1-3). What seems to make the difference is the idea of whether the influence would be corrupting.
In Nehemiah’s case there were no strings attached, BUT Zerubbabel’s case did….& therefore the question to ask at all times is whether the donation/endorsement will hinder or aid our commitment to the Lord. The same thing, IMO, goes for government funding—as many think that the government being godless/humanistic indicates they’re enemies of the Cross and shouldn’t be cooperated with. I can see no where where there’s biblical reason for Christian organizations to not receive support from the state. I think there’s a positive biblical precedent for God’s people receiving funds from governmental sources (ex. Nehemiah rebuilding the walls of Jerusalem (Nehemiah 2:8). If and when the state’s willing to fund the Kingdom (provided there are no compromises or strings attached), PRAISE GOD.
(MN:Never take money from the state for Christian work. It doesn’t work. Besides, Christians really don’t do “Kingdom work” here on earth since our Kingdom is not of this world. Daycare centers, vocational training centers, drug treatment centers and wayward girls centers are not kingdom work. They’re nice work, but they don’t, in and of themselves, save people. Only the gospel saves people. And we neither need nor want the government’s help in presenting the gospel. )
If you would, please ignore the end part of my post–specifically, the part on state funding (as I wasn’t intenting to put it there and it was from another conversation I had and I’m not trying to take it in that direction)
If interested, CiCi, here’s one of the resources I researched in depth that really aided me in my wrestlings on the issue and has given probably one of the most on-point teachings on the issue:
Hey G2!! Long time no font. Just let me make a distinction…….Artaxerxes wasn’t an enemy. It was his decree that sent the Jews back to rebuild the walls of Jerusalem.
Same goes with Cyrus…….he wasn’t actively fighting God or evangelizing for satan.
Nebuchadnezzar’s heart was turned by God as well. He wound up praising God,not cursing Him or fighting against Him.
Same with the Pharoah under Joseph. He was the one who insisted the Jews come to Goshen so they could be cared for under Joseph. Certainly no enemy of God there.
BUT,the Samaritans ARE a good example of the case I’m making. They had set up a competing temple, a competing priesthood, competing sacrifices, and actively evangelized FOR their false system against the God of Israel.
Their help was rejected because they were enemies of the Living God.
So is Oprah. She is an active, virulent, implacable enemy of God……. an evangelist for a false Christ,a false sacrifice, a false system of worship,and false “gods”.
She must be rejected for the very same reason that the Samaritans were rejected. Corrupting influence, and active war against Christ.
I’ve said repeatedly that I’m not averse to a Christian politician working with or seeking the endorsement of any entity that is not dedicated to war with Christ, or the active promotion of false “gods”, or the implementation of a social agenda that violates the Word of God.
If Obama wants to appear with and seek the endorsement of the UAW,that’s fine. Even though they do not represent Christ’s interests, they don’t actively blaspheme and teach false doctrine in an attempt to evangelize for false “gods”.
But Oprah does ALL of that. And therein lies the difference.
Comment by cici
2008-05-01 06:18:21
Good Morning G2 and GaryV,
First, I’d like to thank both of you for your kind and thoughtful comments. This is what I had in mind when I began the discussion with you, Gary–sans the Oprah and Obama comments
Anyway, I hear what you’re saying now, Gary, and I’ve had some of the same thoughts as you, G2, even ciiting some of the same examples.
So, then would you say that a practicing Muslim or Jew (who worships in temple or synagogue), for instance, is an enemy of the cross? Can/should people of other faiths work together on issues, form an alliance of sorts to,for instance, combat child hunger? Do you think this a violation of scripture?
Should a Christian politician/candidate accept the support , endorsement, financial contributions of such people of different faiths? If they don’t, don’t you think that contradicts with their pledge to represent all of the citizens represented by the particular office that they’re running for?
Thanks again for the discussion, guys….
CiCi
Comment by GaryV
2008-05-01 15:33:17
Hi CiCi !! I have no problem with Christians accepting endorsements from a Muslim or a Jewish person……..but I would make it clear that I would not alter my stances as recompense (which would likely get me very little support anyway, since it’s fairly certain their interests would never be served by seeing me elected).
We’re to be IN the world but not OF the world. You can’t hold yourself apart from the world, but you can’t accede to their agenda.
As for working with Muslims or Jews in meeting the needs of the poor or working together on some social cause, I would not unless I had freedom to proclaim Christ (which would not likely earn me much support anyway, because it would not serve their interests……….anyone seeing a pattern here?? )
Maybe I’m being a bit simplistic, I don’t know. But here is the way I view things.
If I faithfully cling to Christ and His commands, I’m not going to have to worry about who votes for me or whose endorsement I gain or who wants to work with me on social programs. I’ll likely never have to decide whether or not I’m going to accept their money or endorsements or invitations. Why??
Because they’ll never ask me to run,they’ll never support me if I do, and they’ll never invite me onto the boards of their social change committees if I cling tenaciously to Christ.
Maybe years and years ago, when the culture was at least nominally Christian, I could cling to Christ uncompromisingly and still be sought after for such positions.
But today,with post modernity and secularism and political correctness having become the American zeitgeist, I would be marginalized out of consideration for any of the positions or opportunities we’re discussing.
Whether or not I would work with them becomes a moot point, because they would never consider working with me.
Is this not the very spirit of the antichrist ever growing in our midst? JO has nothing on OW in terms of the number of sheeple being led astray. With so much importance placed on existentialism and gnosticism, it totally wreaks of old age heresy. She denies the Word of God and encourages her audience (read followers) to create idol gods. Christ made it quite clear in John 14:6 there is only one way. Obviously, neither Tolle or Winfrey have read their bibles lately. It makes the commandment to “mark these” ever so significant in these last days.
Sola Scriptura,
DOC
Hey folks!! Back from vacation,and I must say I missed you all.
Hello, GaryV:
And you thought the quiet apprehension in the backside of your brain, and the palpable feeling of “Man, my ears are burning” were due to Satan and his minions . . . it was just us Pulpit Pimpeteers talking ’bout you while you were loafing.
We missed you!
Peter
Welcome back to the fray!
Peter
Ahhhhhhhh………and a great time of loafing it was indeed. It took me about 1 night though before I was having to fight the urge to run down to the concierge desk and access the courtesy computer. I missed you guys!!
Welcome back, GaryV. Hope you had a time of real R&R. The wife and I are headed to do the same next week and boy am I looking forward to it (read really need the rest)!
DOC
ooooh goody, whatcha bring me?
Why Mav………you sound just like a real WoFer.
LOL! @ GaryV.
GaryV I was hoping you would bring me a prayer cloth, Holy Water, Anointing Oil, or maybe even a special Prophecy from God about my future prosperity.
Ah Sho ta ka la ta Ha ha bo bo ta!
Kyle
gee, i suppose i do. my bad
I love you Mav!! I gave you an opening to say “You should know you old pulpit pimp” but you just keep being gracious. I wanna be like you when I grow up!!
Anyone can put a few clips together and skip over things to make anything look anyway at all. Since I did not see the whole interview from beginning to end, I am not swayed one way or the other by a collection of clippings. God is different things to different people although there is only one son, Jesus Christ. No ONE person knows everything there is to know about God the father. Therefore, be careful whom you judge lest ye be judged. I don’t have time to be distracted from my walk and relationship by what some have to say about other people. If you believe someone is wayward then pray for them sincerely not judge and criticize; that is not your place. This blog does nothing for futhering of the gospel of Jesus Christ. It seems to be a den where people gather to “talk” rather than do. Everyone needs to realign themselves with God not man and seek His wisdom and knowledge. Only God Himself can reveal Himself to man, if He so chooses. As I said before, NO MAN knows every part, aspect, characteristic, etc of God so be careful in all things and walk in love, for God is truth and love.
(MN: That was the best example of a cluelessly expressed Christianese that I have heard in a long time. I think you managed to slip in most of the inanities the PimpDefs come here with - again. )
Honestly, why is she any different from anyone else that denies the truth. In true sincerity I ask what will be the nature of the prayer……….. what would the supplication be and is anyone deserving of the same amount of attention.
I know the scriputre reference for praying for those in authority (1Tim 2) but what REALLY makes Oprah more deserving than someone else of a day of prayer.
Maybe someone else has already stated this but, I’m just not seeing the consistency.
In my humble opinion
I agree , but i do think the devil is using her because of the influence she has and the power she has from television to confuse. Its funny because she always want to touch on those type of subjects , dealing with God. Shes not stupid , she has too many people to please to follow Christ the road is too narrow , she needs a wide gate. Im tired of hearing about all these rules you have to follow in Chrisianity, some real saved folf love and take pleasure in following Christ.
If I may,
Oprah, through her syndication, reaches millions of women and a handful of men daily. For one hour a day, they tune into her and everything she says. I barely give God an hour a day, and it is not purely prayer time as I am counting reading blogs like this as part of His hour.
That level of exposure is power. She can indoctrinate. She is evangelizing for the enemy. She reaches millions daily.
And they are buying into it, in droves.
That is why OW needs a battalion of prayer partners working for her salvation. Just turn the table. Imagine if she were saved. Would she spend as much energy on Christ as she has on ET? The potential for good is as enormous as her current reality of carnage.
Peace.
Righter agrees…
Merlin I have question, lets say that she turns her life over to Christ. Do you think that she would be allowed to continue her syndication as she shares her testimony of being saved through Jesus and condemning sin? I doubt it.
Furthermore, along with Oprah we might as well pray for Osteen as well, since he (like Oprah) is deceived by the devil and has a large following, same with Jakes, Price.. and others of the same ilk. I wouldn’t want to seem that we are being a respecter of persons - praying for one deceived individual and not considering any of the others. Acts 10: 34-35
(MN: We’ve actually talked about this in a very recent posting. GIve the thread there a read. )
Righter thinks they all need prayer and wonders why there would be any exceptions…
All this talk about Oprah’s salvation, yeah, it’s good to pray for her and all, HOWEVER, on the same token, I think Oprah knowingly knows that she’s sold out against the gospel, and really thinks little of any christian prayers or appeals.
In other words, from where she’s standing, she’s not doing what she’s doing, out of ignorance…
(MN: Agreed. But we are not trying to convince her to change. We are praying to God that He would open her heart even as He opened Lydia’s heart. Remember, the unsaved are blind and enemies of God. Sitting in a Baptist church doesn’t change that. )
Melvin said:
Agreed. But we are not trying to convince her to change. We are praying to God that He would open her heart even as He opened Lydia’s heart. Remember, the unsaved are blind and enemies of God. Sitting in a Baptist church doesn’t change that.
My response:
Well, I hope people will feel the same if Obama or Hilary, win the white house…
(MN: Sure, if Obama or Hillary win the Whitehouse, I would pray for them. In fact, I pray for them now. I pray for McCain too. And Bush, etc. )
Seekerman, I agree with you; I also feel that Oprah knows she is wrong. Something tells me that she does not believe half that stuff she promotes and that she is still confused about her own life and why God created her. I see fustration in her eyes; yet since she led so many people down the path of destruction, she might feel that she can not doubt any of that stuff now because if she do she will lose millions.
Yes we really need to pray for Oprah.
Also, did you see the women who is dying of cancer in that Oprah episode. I felt so bad for the women because she was telling Oprah that “she is not afraid to die anymore for she knows she will have eternal life” and she thanked Oprah and Oprah’s false prophet for opening up her eyes to the meaning of the scriptures when Jesus said He is the truth and the light…..” their interpretation of that scripture is false by the way.
I really appreciate this piece, especially the blurb on how she actually denies Jesus as the only way. It was also disturbing how she purposefully interpreted God as a jealous God as being jealous OF her instead of jealous FOR her. It really reveals her level of conceit, self-aggrandizement and arrogance, even at a much earlier age.
However, is it just me, or are you tired of the facts being tied to a political agenda? I’m an independent, neither democrat or republican, but why not just focus on Oprah’s heresy and leave Obama out of it?
(MN: Given that I want to avoid politics as far as is possible, I won’t address the idea of my politics refecting my morals and ethics, not my party affiliation. )
Yeah L. Davis. I’m with you on her explanation on God being a jealous God. She was way off base on that interpretation. This could be dangerous. The numbers of her audience is staggering; close to 26 million folks tune it weekly. Oprah has more influence on this culture than any church or any well know pastor has today. It’s the unsaved and biblical illiterate that will buy into this mess. This could turn out to be the largest cult we’ve ever seen. She will lead her followers with this garbage and her followers lead other people down the wrong path and so on. There’s no need for a new way because the way has already been laid ( Corinthians 3:11). Man, I really feel sorry for her. She should get with a small bible study group with real believer before it’s too late.
AMEN! L. Davis and Bro NateWeldon; especially with reference to God being “jealous of her.” This is ignorance gone to seed… Indeed, she should get with a small Bible study group with true believers before it’s too late!
People…
God is no respecter of person. I am not going to spend
any extra time praying for this New Age Witch.
Oprah has been exposed to the true Gospel of Jesus
Christ and she has exercised her freewill to opt for the
dark side.
I will pray for the foolish who are caught up in her new
age nonsense that they will be delivered by God from
her Satanic slickerism.
Ophrah is one of many anti-Christs (in place of Christ)
who are leading people astray along with Joel Osteen,
Fred Price, Creflo Dollar, K. Copeland and a hosts of
others. These people have been exposed to the true
Gospel and have made a conscious decision to renounce
the Lordship of Christ and follow their own “gospel”
as it were.
I am not shocked by these happenings. It is part and
parcel of latter day falling away. Satan has his imps and
tricksters and fakirs doing their thing to woo people
away to eternal perdition.
Oprah deserves no special “mass” or “hail marys” or
fasting more than a Joe Smith or a Mary Jones down the block who are not born again.
Ohrah has a spirit of pride and arrogance and money
that is telling her that she is right. Please notice that
over time, she is getting deeper and deeper into this
new ago voodoo. She is going from delusion to delusion
delusion. I believe Satan has elevated her to a “territorial
spirit” as to influence and power and we who have
discernment will and should take every opportunity to
combat her new age nonsense with the Word of God
and especially John 14:6.
Ophrah will not surround herself or go near anything that is genuine of Christ. Her spirit won’t allow it.
She is both a captive and is taking other captives.
Don’t be fearful or alarmed at these developments. We
are seeing before our very eyes the rise of strong
Satanic influences in the media…but our God is able
and we are on the winning side!
Man, or woman, I kinda agree with you…
The reason I think we should fast and pray on O’s behalf is because of her influence on millions of people. Note that many people will vote for Obama just because O is endorsing him. O is not beyond the Lord’s reach. We shouldn’t give up on O or the rest of the unsaved walking in darkness.
Hello, psalm100:
Amen and amen; G-d did not give up on me, so how can He give up on Oprah, unless of course, He wills it so!
“It is He who has made us, and not we ourselves;
We are His people and the sheep of His pasture.”
I think I’m stealing your thunder, psalm100!
Peter.
Maybe I’m a little late. But what’s with leaving the letter “o” out of God’s name? dickkopf?
My understanding is that in Hebrew, the vowels are not used when writing God’s name. Many do this today in English. Someone correct me or add to this if I’m wrong.
Hello, Brenda-in-MD:
Using my favorite search engine, I typed “writing G-d’s name” in the browser, and viola!:
http://www.jewfaq.org/name.htm
Check it out, and browse the site: it’s a good one!
Peter
Righter thanks dickkopt for the source–:-)
Here is another one that I have found to be helpful
http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Grammar/Unit_Two/Introduction/introduction.html
Hi Brenda,
You are correct, vowels and consonants do not interact in the Hebrew in the same manner that they do in English
it’s always so strange to me that people actually look to Oprah for spiritual guidance. I guess it’s just something I’ll never get. I like her show for decorating tips and if a celeb that I like is going to be on there but spirituality..not so much, not at all.
Oprah and her new age propoganda is really starting to hit home for me. I was sitting in the chair yesterday getting my ‘do done and my hair stylist commented that she bought the Eckart Tolle book.
Now what was I supposed to say? My hair stylist isn’t a Christian…at least she has never made a profession of faith in my presence. I said nothing… well actually I changed the subject. I am paraphrasing but that verse that says “always being ready to give an answer for the hope within you” came to mind. Well she wasn’t asking me anything so I kept my mouth shut. What could I have said?
This Oprah madness is spreading like wildfire. I am afraid that a family member is going to pop up with that book. What am I to do? Yes, let’s pray for Oprah.
Hi Melanie…
I would have used that as an introduction to a
conversation piece asking your hairdresser what is
it that she found interesting about the book and
why is she reading it?
Then you could have indicated that a book that you
read…the Bible speaks about moral absolutes that
neither Tolle or Ophrah agree to. Simply mention
and quote either John 14:6 and Acts 4:12 and you
will have enough discussion points to fill an hour or
two. Remember: evangelism is sharing the Word of
God or your testimony and leaving the results to
the Holy Spirit. Some will accept it and some will
curse you. Keep your meekness and joy and realize
that you are not wrestling against flesh and blood
but with powers and principalities in the heavens. I
also suggest that you read the book and mark it
up for “talking points” vs. the Word of God. The
Word says that we are to be able to give a reason or
a defense for the hope that we have within us.
Your testimony is sufficient. We are not talking about
drama or word study skills…simply the message of
God in Jesus drawing men and women back to him
due to what Christ did for us at Calvary.
Lafe, Thank you. For the moment, I listened to what she was saying and I’ll continue to listen for that open door to share the gospel. She hasn’t read the book yet so Lord willing I’ll remember to ask her about the book. Interesting….I was just thinking that I needed to find a new hairdresser because she is so far away from where I live now….Hmmm
The fields are white unto harvest.
I had an interesting conversation with a new age guy, at least that is what I think he was. He was all excited about that documentary where some guy allegedly found Jesus’ bones. Now I didn’t watch it because I had no interest and I don’t know that I could have stomached the madness. (I think I have been listening to Pastor Coleman too much lately hence my use of the word “madness”.)
Long story short, I asked him did the documentary conclusively prove that they found the bones of Jesus? He said no. Then we talked about the Dan Brown book. I asked him when you want to research something what is the best source material–secondary or primary. He said “primary”. Then I went on to tell him that the Dan Brown book was based on these “gospels” written hundreds of years later. Whereas the gospels in the Bible are eyewitness accounts and written soon after the events occured. He said nothing in response. NOw at that point should I have closed the deal and given him the gospel? I figured if he wanted to talk more the opportunity would come up. It never did because the office had layoffs and he was let go. I pray a seed was laid.
Hmmm…now I think I will pray for another opportunity to talk to my hair stylist about the Tolle book.
Oprah is no fool. She knows full well what she has done and doesn’t care. She has turned to doctrines of her own heart, which allows her to live as she pleases and she is teaching this to countless millions. All walking blindly but knowingly down the path away from Jesus towards Satan listening to the same lie that he has been telling since Adam and Eve:….’you will not die’
Shalom To All,
What we have to realise is how dangerous celebrities are. They have an agenda and express via talk-shows like Oprah and Music like Kanye West. Kanye’s mother wrote in her book “Raising Kanye”:
Donda West goes on to talk about how Kanye held a rap concert at his father’s youth revival which made him late for a concert with Usher… “I was unhappy that Kanye was not on time for the concert, it was his ethical and contractual obligation. But I learned later that 300 YOUNG PEOPLE GAVE THEIR LIVES TO CHRIST the night Kanye did “Jesus Walks” at the youth revival[Pg.138]”.
Keep in mind he uses profanity (for feces) and racial slang (N-word) in this song. Eventhough I’m sure he rapped the radio version when He’s a “Man of Gawd” and the explicit version every other day.
Donda West goes on and on of how anointed this song was “I knew that in 31 years of teaching, I had not impacted young people the way this single record would. It would also touch the old and everyone in between.
I didn’t thnk about it in the car that day, but “Jesus Walks” would also BRING MANY to Christ. Although there ARE MANY PATHS to right living, NOT JUST CHRISTIANITY, following the teachings of Jesus IS ONE of them(Pg.137).
Oprah’s Church is bigger than we think!
May His Kigndom Come,
Avishalom
P.S. Yes there is much more garbage like that in her book including a vision of “ENERGY” that Kanye called Jesus which was a sign that he has a special relationship with Christ, see page 140.
Ok I was following the whole video until the very end. What do her false teachings and confused way of thinking have to do with Barack Obama? Am I missing a Christian memo or something?
I am SO thankful that Oprah is willing to share the truth. Those who don’t like the message will always attack both the message and the messenger. She is above that nonsense. The bit about Obama at the end shows that the person putting this together really was angeling to make this political. In the end, we don’t care! Oprah is true to herself and a wonderful role model for the world. Would that you were more like her!
I doubt that you will envy Oprah as much when she stands before God. She may be a nice enough person, but then again hell is filled with nice people who deny Christ and His Words.
Thankful, what is the “truth” that Oprah is telling? Just because someone does good and generous things when they can afford to doesn’t make them righteous in the sight of God. It’s like Charles Manson who murdered a pregnant woman, but sent a carved wooden box and letter to a what he thought was a dying girl. Good works gets you nowhere with God. You say Oprah speaks the truth, but I counteract that with Jesus- John 18:37-38a “Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice. 38 Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault [at all].”
Jesus said that He bears witness of the truth. What truth would that be? John 14:6 “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” He is a witness of His salvation to mankind. And you know what else? The Holy Spirit bore and bears witness to that fact (attested through the Apostles and on down through the church through the years). Jesus is the truth and to deny Christ is to deny the truth. And you can’t go back and say anything about Jesus meaning or being something other tahn what the Bible states because all we know about Christ comes from the Bible.
Now back to Pilate, he asked the question, “What is truth?” But you know what, he didn’t even stick around for the answer. He asked a question, but didn’t really want to know. Just like Oprah. They both wanted to believe what they wanted to believe. Pilate in his gods and Oprah with hers. I hope you see where I am going with this? Truth is in Christ alone, dictated by what is in the Bible. If you can’t believe the bible, then you are just as lost as they are.
And you are right about one thing, Oprah is a wonderful role model to the “world”- not to a Christian.
Oh and one more thing- you said “Those who don’t like the message will always attack both the message and the messenger.” Funny you should say that, as far as I remember the world didn’t like Christ’s message and so they killed the messenger. Oprah isn’t dead from what I see. Guess she isn’t that disliked, huh?
Thankful, I didn’t say any of this to be demeaning and I hope you don’t take it that way. But I believe in the truth of Christ taught through the exegetical exposition of the bible. I will stand up for that anywhere because I know Christ to be the truth and I want all those who are to know Christ come into that true knowledge.
sincerely,
Chermone
Jen,the Bible Barak Hussein Obama claims to believe says this;
2Cor 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers (like Oprah): for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial (Or Oprah’s false “gods”)? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel (Like Oprah)?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols (Like Oprah’s)? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
The fact that Obama is willing to toss aside the Word of God in so facile a manner to hook up with a pagan for political gain tells us some important things.
1) He is either abjectly ignorant of the Word, or he is not really a Christian but an unethical political pimp pandering to voters, or both.
2) He is willing to trample the Blood of Christ underfoot in order to gain voters by appealing to a pagan like Oprah (which means he’s not saved), or he agrees with Oprah’s theology (which means he’s not saved).
3) If he’s willing to sell out Christ for a few votes,who precisely WON”T he sell out among US??
At least Judas kissed Jesus first.
Gary V,
I’m sorry, I think your last comment about Obama tossing the Word of God aside is just a bit out of line and terribly unfair. I doubt that any of us have had a conversation with the senator about his beliefs about the Bible that we consider to be the Word of God, so we really can’t say that he has “tossed it aside.”
But, more importantly, Obama is running to be the President of the United States of America — not the pastor of the church you or I might belong to. There are citizens in this country that have all kinds of beliefs — Christian and non-Christian — whether we like it or not. Politicians must represent and lead the nation and all of its citizens which are all guaranteed the fredom to practice whatever religion they choose.
So is your suggestion that he only receive support from Christians? If he receives support and votes from Jews is he “selling out Christ?”
(MN: While I don’t want to get involved in politics I can’t leave this alone.
Homosexuality - He okay with it. It’s out of line with the Bible
Homosexual marriage - He’s okaywith it. It’s out of line with the Bible
Abortion - He’s okay with it. It’s out of line with the Bible
Partial birt abortion - He’s okay with it. It’s out of like with the Bible
He has tossed aside (if he ever held to them to begin with) the Teachings of the Bible. And yes, a person can believe what they want. And I can vote for them or not as I choose. And if Obama claims to be a Christian yet tosses aside some of the essentials, why would I want to vote for a person who does that?
I would have less trouble voting for Romney that Obama. )
Melvin,
Again…this begs the question does a Christian running for public office only accept support from those who are Christian. I am a Christian, and hold to my beliefs dearly and do my best to live by them. However, I do not live in a theocracy and I respect other people’s right to have their own religious beliefs and interpretations and live and participate in this society as long as law abiding citizens.
(MN: No cici, the question is not “Do they have a right to their religious beliefs?” The question is should you vote for a man or woman who would press for social actions that are contrary to your religious beliefs?” As an example, he is very much in favor of maintaining abortion, even partial birth abortion, as a right. Should you vote for the man who is opposed to this or the man who is for it? )
I think what irks me the most is that Christians tend to focus on very narrow issues when it comes to determining a politician’s “legitimacy” as a Christian. (MN: I’m not questioning his legitimacy as a Christian. I’m questioning his ability to best represent my views and values, even if I were a Muslim. But even if I were, would I be wrong to question his “legitimacy” as a Christian if he was a practicing homosexual? ) There’s much more to Christianity than opposing homosexuality and abortion. (MN: Certainly. But you can’t get to the more unless you oppose those. After all, there is more to Christianity than accepting Jesus Christ as your savior. There is more to Christianity than accepting the Bible as the word of God. But at the same time, there isn’t much point to the rest of being a Christian without these. ) And again, I say that you don’t know what he holds to be true for his personal beliefs. I have heard him say that he is opposed to homosexual “marriage”. I don’t know what you mean by being “okay” with it. (MN: I have yet been able to see the difference between a “Civil Union” and a marriage. The only difference is the name. ) But, maybe I’m like him in that I’m “okay” with it because we live in a free country. And I definitely expect people to be “okay” with the choices that I make to live my life as a Christian and respect and protect my right to do so. (MN: Actually, from reading what you have said so far, I suspect we are saying two different things. Let’s clarify:
1. Do you believe homosexuality is wrong?
2. Do you believe abortion is wrong?
If you answer to either of these is “no” then I have no intention of spending more time discussing the issue with you. )
While the Word of God is very clear and simple, our world is not. There is poverty, war, exploitation, greed, etc….running rampant. All of which are worthy of much deeper thought, consideration, and discussion than it is given by most of us.
Melvin:
I’m afraid that I don’t know how to insert my comments into yours as you obviously know how to do, so I must respond in a seperate space to your questions.
Yes, I believe that homosexuality and abortion are wrong. But, nevertheless, please don’t feel compelled to spend any more of your time discussing the issue with me.
As I said before, the President of the United States must represent all of its citizens regardless of their religious beliefs while remaining true to all of his own. As Christians we are called to be concerned about many things and the right and wrong of them. In the times and society in which we live inwhich people have the ability to believe or not believe anything they choose it will be very difficult for any Christian to represent all of the views of all of those that vote them into office. That is why we should all be prayerful and mindful of who we vote for and not simply buy into the hype of who’s the “Christian” candidate based upon a select one or two emotional hot-button issues.
(MN: Sorry cici - a view of abortion or homosexuality is not simply a matter of religious beliefs any more than a view of murder is simply a religious belief. That is, I don’t have to be a Christian to believe that Murder is wrong. Neither do I have to be a Christian to believe that abortion is wrong. No one is saying a person has to be a Christian to represent all my views. Neither am I saying that a person has to represent all my views before I’ll vote for him. But I do believe even you have some matters that would preclude you from voting for someone. For instance, if you are Black, you would likely be hard pressed to vote for an avowed racist, no matter their stand on any other areas. I give a person the right to be a racist. But I will exercise my right to vote against him even if it’s for a narrow concern. Being narrow makes the matter no less critical. )
Melvin,
I believe that you are the one that linked the issues of abortion and homosexuality to the Bible and Christianity, not me. (MN: In a manner of speaking. I brought them up because of this statement of yours: However, I do not live in a theocracy and I respect other people’s right to have their own religious beliefs and interpretations and live and participate in this society as long as law abiding citizens. In saying this, you made it seem as if the things I disagree with Obama on are purely religious. I want to make sure you understand that they are not purely religious. )
Of course, it’s every one’s right to vote for or against someone based upon one or a myriad of issues that they feel are important. My only hope would be that we would all consider the wide range and complexity of the issues that effect all of us at every stage of our lives (from conception to the grave) when making our decisions.
(MN: Sorry - but not all issues are of equal weight. Besides, there’s virtually nothing he is promoting that I agree with. Besides, the stuff he is considering (abortion to a receptive view of euthanasia) DOES affect us from the cradle to the grave, literally. )
Melvin,
It seems for you that this discussion has disintegrated into one about Obama, when my intent was to prompt a discussion about the way that we address political issues and the process as Christians prompted by GaryV’s original comments regarding Oprah and Obama and his thoughts about him as a self identifying Christian accepting her support.
I really couldn’t care less who you choose to support, and I mean that with all due respect. I think if you read my comments carefully and with an open mind you will see that I have said nothing to urge anyone to vote for a particular candidate. What I have attempted to do is spark a broader discussion about politics, Christianity, issues, and how they all work or don’t work together.
But, perhaps, this is not the forum for that discussion. If not, please forgive my transgression.
All the best…. trial
CiCi
(MN: cici, it’s always fun to watch people back out of a discussion by trying to make the folks she was speaking with sound as if they misunderstood what that she was saying or that they are too dimwitted to actually follow the full orbed discussion they are trying to have. I don’t think that is the case in this discussion. I suspect that you came in with the assumption that we don’t try to live our Christianity in all aspects of our lives - politics, morals, relationships, work, entertainment, family, school, etc. You seem to think that most of the readers are Christian troglodytes who only want to hide in their caves and smash anyone who comes near them. You keep bringing in “people are free to vote for whom they wish” as though someone in the discussion said people are not. You have accused folks of being narrowly focused yet have not sought to find out what any of us think of welfare, affirmative action, confiscatory taxes, the environmental scam, drilling in ANWR or others.
No one is trying to get you to support Obama. And no one is trying to keep you from supporting Obama. We’re just trying to understand what you position is and get some idea of how you live out your Christianity.
Melvin…
I am not backing out of anything. I simply do not want to discuss two individuals– Obama and Oprah– any longer because I do not feel that it makes for a profitable discussion. (MN: Yes. And that’s called backing out. But you are certainly free to do exactly as you wish. ) I have accused no one on this board in particular of narrowing their focus. (MN: As I said the first time you said this, I am not questioning his legitimacy as a Christian. His policies define that. I am questioning his ability to represent me when he holds so aggressively to some really ungodly principals. As I said, I would have less trouble with Romney than I do Obama, and Romney is anything BUT a Christian. ) What I did say is that the “traditional” “Christian” political agenda has been narrow in it’s focus on homosexuality and abortion a la “The Christian Coalition”, etc…. I made no assumptions about you personally nor your readers.
And if that’s what you thought, then you did indeed misunderstand my comments.
(MN: So, as Melanie said, help us to understand. )
I would have less trouble voting for Romney that Obama
Righter says, “But Melvin”!!!
LOL
CiCi, you may want to go back through Obama’s own words on the subject of his beliefs.
HE is the one who claimed that he was a Christian, correct?? Well, since he has identified himself as a Christian,he has bound himself by the Word of God through which faith itself comes. You cannot have one without the other.
Jesus said in Jhn 14:15 “If ye love me, keep my commandments.”
Those commandments are contained in the Word of God, and the Word commands Obama (since he claims he is a Christian) just as it commands you and I…..
2Cor 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers (like Oprah): for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial (Or Oprah’s false “gods”)? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel (Like Oprah)?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols (Like Oprah’s)? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate (from Oprah), saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.”
Has he done as his Master commanded?? Or has he tossed aside the commands of the Master and allied himself with an enemy of the Cross to gain votes??
The fact is, if he had cozied up to some political power base rather than to Oprah, I’d be fine with that. Politics is politics.
But Oprah is not about politics. She’s about “spirituality” primarily, and she’s a heretic who is leading untold millions into deception and rebellion against God. She’s a woman who is actively and aggressively using every tool in her considerable arsenal to fight AGAINST Christ. She has stated repeatedly that Christ is not the only way to God, and she promotes Eastern and New Age philosophies that worship other “gods”, eschew the concepts of sin, repentance, Blood Atonement, righteousness, the depravity of man, the Holiness of God, heaven, hell, the judgment to come, and the Deity of Christ.
Can I ever support anyone who willingly allies himself with a rabid and relentless enemy of the Savior Who bled and died for me?? No.
2 Jn 1:9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ (Like Oprah) does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine (Like Oprah), do not receive him (or her) into your house nor greet him (And certainly don’t suck up to and align with her, and by extension her fight against Christ); 11 for he who greets (Supports in any way) him (her) shares in his (her) evil deeds (/b>.
Obama has now made himself a partaker in Oprah’s evil deeds by aligning with her. He is every bit as responsible as Oprah for the millions being deceived through her war against Christ.
I don’t want any part of that.
Gary,
I have no disagreement with you as far as Oprah’s beliefs and what she espouses. So there is no need for us to discuss Oprah any further.
My remaining question to you would be why do you say he has ‘allied” himself with Oprah? And/or what is your definition of “allied’?
We can’t dismiss Oprah’s beliefs,because her beliefs are what makes Obama’s use of her a sin.
Instead of haggling over an English word I used as a descriptive, let’s look at what Scripture says in 2 Cor 6 which I cited above. This Scripture commands us not to be yoked to unbelievers. What does that mean??
Heterozygeo (Gr)
1) to come under an unequal or different yoke, to be unequally yoked
a) to have fellowship with one who is not an equal: 2Cor 6:14, where the apostle is forbidding Christians to have intercourse with idolaters
Is Obama having fellowship with one who is an idolater in fellowshipping with Oprah?? Emphatically,yes.
It’s no sin to Obama to have Oprah endorse him. The sin comes in Obama linking with Oprah (an idolater) to further his own desires. Why?? because endorsement runs BOTH ways.
If OJ Simpson endorsed Obama, do you think Obama would go on tour with OJ like he did with Oprah?? Why not?? because it’s a tacit approval of OJ. Same goes for Oprah.
Even leaving this all aside, how do you get around this??
2 Jn 1:9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ (Like Oprah) does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine (Like Oprah), do not receive him (or her) into your house nor greet him (And certainly don’t suck up to and align with her, and by extension her fight against Christ); 11 for he who greets (Supports in any way) him (her) shares in his (her) evil deeds.
I think Obama has done more than the forbidden greeting of Oprah the Pagan Evangelist, don’t you??
How would you feel if Obama went out with Reverend Ike, or Louis Farrakhan?? How would that be different than going out with Oprah to get votes??
Obama:”"I’ve been in contact with her (Oprah) consistently and she’s open to helping out in any way she can,” he added.
Is that not yoking with an unbeliever?? Is that not two allied for a common goal?? Oprah has opened her 50 million dollar estate to raise millions for Obama. He went. His wife went. They had pictures made. He spoke and thanked Oprah. He walked away with millions he needed. Is that not an alliance formed to see Obama put in the White House?? Is that not yoking with an idolater?? Is going to her home and schmoozing with her for votes and fawning over her before the world not going far beyond the command not to even GREET false teachers??
Is Obama a Christian or a politician first?? I think we all know the answer to that. Can A Christian yoke himself with an enemy of Christ to get what he wants?? If Obama starts making appearances with Farrakhan, would that be OK?? And if so, how is that different from Oprah??
Again,they have made an alliance, a yoking, choose the term you wish……..for the common goal of seeing Obama in the White House. And anyone who can betray Christ by cozying up to one of Christ’s most virulent enemies I want no part of, lest I then partake of THEIR evil.
Gary V,
My intention is not to “haggle” over an english word. I am simply to trying to fully understand your point of view before I agree or disagree with it.
I must say that I disagree, in this instance, with your characterization of the situation, yet I don’t wish to argue with you and respect your point of view and will continue to consider it thoughtfully.
(MN: I would ask that you also point out where he is mischaracterizing the relationship. )
I suppose that perhaps a good topic for thought and discussion might be what makes a “good” Christian politician/candidate and/or can a Christian who has no alliances with non-Christians be a viable candidate for office in these United States? And, if so, at what level of office and in what situation?
I am done with the issue Oprah and Obama. As I am not privy to their private conversations and do not know the details of that relationship other than what I have read and heard in the media, I really don’t feel any further discussion of that issue is warranted or profitable in this case. As I said, I disagree with Gary V’s characterization (you added ‘mis’) of the relationship based on my limited knowledge of it and in the context of the political arena. Period. My prior posting speaks for itself.
I would much rather prefer to address the broader and I feel more profitable absract and theoretical question that I posed at the end of my previous comment.
(MN: Hey, if anyone is interested, knock yourself out. But so far you have proven too generic and unclear to really converse with. But again, knock yourself out. I suspect you are going to get an even more aggressive response from the readers than you have so far. As I said, we usually stay away from politics. You now want to move into theology. As Brer Rabbit said: Brer Fox, PLEASE don’t throw me in the brier patch. )
That’s cool CiCi……I respect the fact that you may disagree, but I wonder on what grounds.
I believe youmay be missing my point though when you say this……..
“…….can a Christian who has no alliances with non-Christians be a viable candidate for office in these United States?”
I’m not talking about Christian alliances with nonChristians. I’m talking about alliances with enemies of the Cross. As a Christian I can seek the endorsement of the meat packers union even though they’re not necessarily Christian.
But I cannot as a Christian yoke myself with those who are actively fighting against, blaspheming, and demeaning my Savior.
I see those situations as entirely different.
Peace CiCi!!
GaryV
Thanks for having the guts for telling it as it is!!!!!!
Hi Gary,
Thanks for your thoughtful response. I think that you’re understanding where I’m coming from and the kinds of discussion that I’m interested in.
So, I guess in my next attempt to flesh out this issue, who or what would you say makes someone an enemy of the cross if it’s not all non-Christians? And how do we really define an alliance for a political figure? an endorsement? A contribution? Working on legislation together that we agree upon?
I hoppe that you hear my heart on this and know that I’m not trying to be argumentative–just thoughtful about how we navigate this world that we live in and manage to contribute to its betterment while we’re here and still maintain the integrity of our faith. I have some ideas, but I’d like to hear yours as well.
Is a practicing muslim an enemy of the cross? If so, can a candidate that’s a Christian accept his endorsement? Does that make it an alliance?
I think that this is a conversation that we can have about ‘politics’ without being poliltical and respecting Melvin’s wishes to avoid “politics” as such.
Thanks,
CiCi
CiCi,
Just saying thanks for bringing up the excellent questions you have thus far in the discussion, as I’ve also wondered the same thing and have discussed it elsewhere. You’re a blessing.
IMHO, if individuals are never to work with those who’re not Christians, I’d personally have a hard time renconcilling that with examples like Nehemiah, who took donations from the Persian king to build the wall of Jerusalem (Nehemiah 2:8), Isaiah, with Cyrus being God’s servant/ used by the Lord even though he was not a servant of Yahweh, to help in funding the Jew’s work of restoring Jerusalem. (Isaiah 44:28-45:6, Isaiah 44:28-45:9 ), as well as Nebuchadnezzar (Jeremiah 25:9),….or even with Joseph in Egypt/having the support of unbelieving pharoah
And then again, Zerubbabel refused the help of the Samarians in rebuilding the temple (Ezra 4:1-3). What seems to make the difference is the idea of whether the influence would be corrupting.
In Nehemiah’s case there were no strings attached, BUT Zerubbabel’s case did….& therefore the question to ask at all times is whether the donation/endorsement will hinder or aid our commitment to the Lord. The same thing, IMO, goes for government funding—as many think that the government being godless/humanistic indicates they’re enemies of the Cross and shouldn’t be cooperated with. I can see no where where there’s biblical reason for Christian organizations to not receive support from the state. I think there’s a positive biblical precedent for God’s people receiving funds from governmental sources (ex. Nehemiah rebuilding the walls of Jerusalem (Nehemiah 2:8). If and when the state’s willing to fund the Kingdom (provided there are no compromises or strings attached), PRAISE GOD.
(MN: Never take money from the state for Christian work. It doesn’t work. Besides, Christians really don’t do “Kingdom work” here on earth since our Kingdom is not of this world. Daycare centers, vocational training centers, drug treatment centers and wayward girls centers are not kingdom work. They’re nice work, but they don’t, in and of themselves, save people. Only the gospel saves people. And we neither need nor want the government’s help in presenting the gospel. )
__________________
If you would, please ignore the end part of my post–specifically, the part on state funding (as I wasn’t intenting to put it there and it was from another conversation I had and I’m not trying to take it in that direction)
If interested, CiCi, here’s one of the resources I researched in depth that really aided me in my wrestlings on the issue and has given probably one of the most on-point teachings on the issue:
http://www.faithtacoma.org/content/2006-05-21-pm.aspx
Hey G2!! Long time no font. Just let me make a distinction…….Artaxerxes wasn’t an enemy. It was his decree that sent the Jews back to rebuild the walls of Jerusalem.
Same goes with Cyrus…….he wasn’t actively fighting God or evangelizing for satan.
Nebuchadnezzar’s heart was turned by God as well. He wound up praising God,not cursing Him or fighting against Him.
Same with the Pharoah under Joseph. He was the one who insisted the Jews come to Goshen so they could be cared for under Joseph. Certainly no enemy of God there.
BUT,the Samaritans ARE a good example of the case I’m making. They had set up a competing temple, a competing priesthood, competing sacrifices, and actively evangelized FOR their false system against the God of Israel.
Their help was rejected because they were enemies of the Living God.
So is Oprah. She is an active, virulent, implacable enemy of God……. an evangelist for a false Christ,a false sacrifice, a false system of worship,and false “gods”.
She must be rejected for the very same reason that the Samaritans were rejected. Corrupting influence, and active war against Christ.
I’ve said repeatedly that I’m not averse to a Christian politician working with or seeking the endorsement of any entity that is not dedicated to war with Christ, or the active promotion of false “gods”, or the implementation of a social agenda that violates the Word of God.
If Obama wants to appear with and seek the endorsement of the UAW,that’s fine. Even though they do not represent Christ’s interests, they don’t actively blaspheme and teach false doctrine in an attempt to evangelize for false “gods”.
But Oprah does ALL of that. And therein lies the difference.
Good Morning G2 and GaryV,
First, I’d like to thank both of you for your kind and thoughtful comments. This is what I had in mind when I began the discussion with you, Gary–sans the Oprah and Obama comments
Anyway, I hear what you’re saying now, Gary, and I’ve had some of the same thoughts as you, G2, even ciiting some of the same examples.
So, then would you say that a practicing Muslim or Jew (who worships in temple or synagogue), for instance, is an enemy of the cross? Can/should people of other faiths work together on issues, form an alliance of sorts to,for instance, combat child hunger? Do you think this a violation of scripture?
Should a Christian politician/candidate accept the support , endorsement, financial contributions of such people of different faiths? If they don’t, don’t you think that contradicts with their pledge to represent all of the citizens represented by the particular office that they’re running for?
Thanks again for the discussion, guys….
CiCi
Hi CiCi !! I have no problem with Christians accepting endorsements from a Muslim or a Jewish person……..but I would make it clear that I would not alter my stances as recompense (which would likely get me very little support anyway, since it’s fairly certain their interests would never be served by seeing me elected).
We’re to be IN the world but not OF the world. You can’t hold yourself apart from the world, but you can’t accede to their agenda.
As for working with Muslims or Jews in meeting the needs of the poor or working together on some social cause, I would not unless I had freedom to proclaim Christ (which would not likely earn me much support anyway, because it would not serve their interests……….anyone seeing a pattern here??
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Maybe I’m being a bit simplistic, I don’t know. But here is the way I view things.
If I faithfully cling to Christ and His commands, I’m not going to have to worry about who votes for me or whose endorsement I gain or who wants to work with me on social programs. I’ll likely never have to decide whether or not I’m going to accept their money or endorsements or invitations. Why??
Because they’ll never ask me to run,they’ll never support me if I do, and they’ll never invite me onto the boards of their social change committees if I cling tenaciously to Christ.
Maybe years and years ago, when the culture was at least nominally Christian, I could cling to Christ uncompromisingly and still be sought after for such positions.
But today,with post modernity and secularism and political correctness having become the American zeitgeist, I would be marginalized out of consideration for any of the positions or opportunities we’re discussing.
Whether or not I would work with them becomes a moot point, because they would never consider working with me.
Melvin,
Count me in. I saw her on one of the Greek channels the oth