If you’re gonna jump on me, be consistent with others as they commented as well….& if you didn’t want to go there, why do you seemingly give approval by allowing the initial comment to begin with? (MN: Because you are not following the rules I laid down at the beginning of this discussion. You even started “wondering” about pragmatism. )

(MN: This is an example of your nattering. We’re looking at what the Bible says, not whether or not MacArthur’s uses Elders. Stick to the topic - Elders. )

Will hit you up further this weekend….though consider investigating some of the articles from the church I suggested to Brother Dominic (NTFR) as their ministry’s stance on Elder Structures is what I’m on currently.

I’ve met CJ Mahaney and can tell you he’s one of the kindest, humblest men I’ve met. He certainly is not seeking the spotlight, and in fact really works hard not to stand out, but to pass the microphone, the spotlight, the stage, and the glory to his brothers and ultimately to Christ. Plus he’s a huge sports fan and loves to make fun of Al Mohler about it constantly, so you gotta love the guy for that at least, right?

Ummm…little brother, I think there’s more to consider when you talk about men like Piper and Mac. Yes there is a plurality of elders structure that is supported by the scriptures, but if any specific men are “star players” or “main ones heard”, it is only because of the grace that God has shown. Remember Paul’s own words?

“For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me. Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.” (1 Corinthians 15:9-11 ESV).

The apostle talks about how he labored more intensely than the other apostles because he was one born out of due time, but he attributes this to God’s grace, and also expresses how he considered himself to be the least of the apostles. Doesn’t this match with another scripture which discusses elders who work hard in the doctrine?

“Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer deserves his wages.” (1 Timothy 5:117-18)

Now, I find it interesting that the pimps use this to justify people paying them tithes and offerings, but they totally ignore the issue of “working hard in word and doctrine” as the justification for reward. They talk about some “dream” or “vision” that they had for the body, when it was just that they ate a quarter pounder with cheese from Mickey Dee’s before they went to bed. You must also understand the humility that comes with the service to God’s people. The exaltation that comes along with that is nothing that Piper and Mac had to do with, unless you can find some area in their life and teaching in which they promoted themselves or brought attention to what they were doing in a negative light. I won’t say that this is beyond them, as they are capable of sinning and missing the mark just like the rest of us. I will even go as far to say that these men probably have sinned in some way, although it hasn’t been made public. One crucial aspect of eldership is humility, which I believe has been exhibited by these men, especially in the area of being able to recieve correction with love (someone correct me if they see otherwise). And if humility is what God sees in these men, doesn’t He mention how he regards it? (James 4:6, James 4:10, 1 Peter 5:5-7). So I highly doubt that they expect to be “famous” or “star players” in any way. Normally the reason you would have a team of elders is due to the fact that there is growth within the body, and other mature men in Christ can share the load with regards to counsel, teaching, correction, discipline and exhortation. This is probably not seen on a national level, but no doubt is occuring locally on a regular basis. Moreover, I’m of the firm belief that you can tell whether or not the elders are doing thier jobs or not based not on what you hear nationally, but by the spiritual maturity of the congregants. And since you don’t attend Grace Community Church or Bethlehem Baptist…

Even when Paul and Barnabas denounced the people at Lystra for attempting to ascribe worship to them, it was noted that Paul was the chief speaker (Acts 14:11-13). However, I know that you understand that Paul didn’t care about it then either.

“This doesn’t happen often at their churches, as they are continually the main ones speaking 4 30 minutes…….unless I missed it when researching. Is it Biblical for one man to have center-stage in a church?”

By now you understand the “center-stage” issue, as I’m sure that it’s not a big deal to these men. Remember that the message that is being preached “center-stage” is a representation of what the church believes that is given to the masses, and it is the job of the elders to check Mac and Piper if they percieve that what they are preaching nationally does not line up with scripture or proper doctrine. However, with these two, you don’t tend to see much heresy being expressed, now do you? Step back, take a deep breath and consider looking at this again. When you do, get back to me. Besides, I can assure you that the 30 minutes you hear Mac speak probably came out of at least 30 HOURS of studying a particular topic…Hit me up this weekend lil’ bro’…

Solus Christus,

R4C

Sometimes, change happened and explaining happened afterward.

This happened at my church where the congregation was 90% white & not really interested in becoming relevant to differing ethnicities. The Pastor made clear it was unbiblical to not be multi-cultural/intentionally sought multi-cultural elders. Though half the church left, we ended up gaining MUCH more in the end, as our church is now vibrantly multi-cultural

At best, it seems like a case-by-case basis…..

Perhaps I should’ve clarified what I meant when I mentioned “ELDER” structure……but specifically, where I’m coming from is the perspective that for pastors with that much influence, how personally do they know their congregations and can shepherd them like SHEPHERDS/ELDERS did in the Bible?

They are the STAR-PLAYERS and the MAIN ONES HEARD with their names at the forefront…..and elders biblically shared even the duties of preaching/teaching.

This doesn’t happen often at their churches, as they are continually the main ones speaking 4 30 minutes…….unless I missed it when researching. Is it Biblical for one man to have center-stage in a church?

There is to be a speaking elder/pastor/bishop/overseer/(all the same thing) and other elders of equal weight who are involved in decision making for that local church. Everyone sees the speaking elder most, but others are to be there working although not necessarily as visible.

If the speaking elder gets out of line, another elder is to be able to step in as speaking elder and the elders sit the rebuked elder down.

Grace Community Church, where John MacArthur preaches, also has a plural elder structure. They call them elders, and differentiate between “staff” and “lay” elders.

It took me about 2 minutes to find this out.

(MN: No. But it would be foolish - which perhaps does make it wrong. But why inflict such angst, panic, and anger for something that isn’t absolutely and immediately damaging? Besides, you have to train and select the elders and teach the congregation exactly what to expect. You have to put a structure into place. These take time. You have to make sure folks understand what the issues are. It takes time to make them aware of the seriousness of the issues. Implementing a change suddenly would be like trying to turn an ocean liner on a dime. Maybe you can do it, but stuff sure is going to get torn up in the process. And unless I’m trying to miss an iceberg, why would I try to turn an ocean liner on a dime, even if I could?

Humans don’t like change. And scaring the beejesus out of them by making a sudden and significant change doesn’t edify them. Just within a family, if you do devotion at one time during the day, you better have a REALLY good reason for changing just the time of day that you do devotion. Humans are human and you have to work within that fact. Heck, Jesus worked with his disciples for three years, and they STILL got totally stressed when the time came. )

Folks were coming up to the pastor and saying things like, “You know, maybe we ought to bring on more lay pastors, maybe re-think the way we govern this church” before the men in authority ever said that in so many words. The Scriptures are powerful to change hearts and minds!

(MN: The same thing Eric is doing. We’ve spent the last month and a half just re-calibrating people’s thinking, establishing that the Bible is the final authority and we need align our behavior and standards to it. How well actions work is not as important as how well we align ourselves with the Bilble. He spent several weeks just establishing this.

Several of the deacons have actually come to him PUBLICLY and apologized for being so resistant at the beginning of the process. He didn’t even have to pull a “Corleone” and have a couple of them wake up with a mangled communion dish in their bed. )

Though their ministries are appreciated, I’m guessing this means even the big name folks such as Macarther, John Piper and others are in serious error since their churches don’t hold to the ELDER structure.

(MN: If they don’t hold to an Elder structure [qualifications, etc], then they are, I do believe, in error. Are the church and leaders all going to bust hell wide open? No. Are they in line with Scripture? No. )

They’re moreso ones where they’re the star players with deacons under them…..& though they call things out, when confronted on it, no one does anything due sayings like “Well, we all see Scripture differently”….or the pragmatic reasoning of “It works, Use It” or “Look at how much good we’ve done.”

Why it seems they seem to get alot of slack on the issue?

(MN: If it turned out that you came to understand that the Bible said you should be structured a different way [not - does the church do good things and has the church been helpful to you], would you, as a member, be willing to go through the pain and effort of changing over to an elder structure? Why or why not? )

If I may ask, You said “He is even…uh…dragging the church toward an Elders structure versus the current Deacon/Pastor structure.” That said, I’d be interested in knowing why there’s so much resistance there…..unless I misread what you were meaning by the word “drag”.

(MN: People get comfortable doing things a certain way. And often the phrase “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it” is presented as a reason to avoid change. But the difficulty here is that if it’s not in accordance with our best understanding of Scripture, it IS broke and DOES need to be fixed. Our local church has been governed under Pastor/Deacon for its entire existence (fifty2 years). Change is both difficult and often scary. “Drag” implies exactly what you caught. )

“A warning though: The pastor is mad serious about studying the Bible, understanding the Bible, and applying the Bible to your life in excruciating detail. He is even…uh…dragging the church toward an Elders structure versus the current Deacon/Pastor structure.”

My question:

What is an “Elders structure”?

(MN: As opposed to having a Deacon Board, a Board of Trustees, and the pastor. Instead we are moving toward Elders (with an eye toward the men appointed meeting the qualifications laid out by the Bible in the epistles to Timothy and Titus, and as discussed in Acts and other places. The pastor is one of several elders. They are there to teach, preach, and discipline. The deacons are there to meet the physical needs of the congregation and the facility.

By the way, I really appreciate you asking that question rather than sitting back quietly. That’s the attitude that is so important in avoiding getting pimped by the wolves that are out there. )

All have their good and their bad points, and ultimately it comes down to a case-by-case basis & seeing what the Lord’s Will is for that individual.

It often seems as if we’ve made the thing into an IDOL and acted like one cannot glorify the Lord effectively without it.

I don’t know what God has in store for me but if He so blesses I really would like to homeschool my children. Even if I don’t homeschool, I think what Gxg said makes sense–”the FAMILY UNIT reinforcing a Biblical World view first.” Also even if I never get married and have children, I just simply support my brothers and sisters who take the time to teach their own children.

I’ll check out Angela’s site. Is that Mrs. Mav? Or should I say, mrs. mav?

Consider checking this one out, as They have locations in Blacksburg (Shenadoah Valley) and Richmond.

http://homefellowship.home.comcast.net/~homefellowship/

The main organization it’s connected with can be found here:

http://www.ntrf.org/about-us/index.php

For researh articles/information on their stances:

http://www.ntrf.org/articles/index.php

Don’t know if that’s anywhere close to where you live……

The organization itself is akin to what would be known as “home fellowships” , & They hold to believer’s baptism and the Doctrines of Grace, with their gathering designed to be family-integrated (family stays together and learns together). Worship consists of psalms, hymns, prayer, music education, etc.

They feel strongly Scripture advocates such things as living room sized churches in homes, the Lord’s Supper as a full meal, church leaders as servants (rather than lords/CEO), church government by consensus, the right and responsibility of the brothers to make decisions corporately, no clergy-laity distinction, and interactive (participatory) church meetings where EVERYONE can participate instead of observing.

While they’re firmly convinced that God’s best is for all His people to organize their churches according to New Testament patterns, they’re not “against” everyone else (i.e. institutional/traditional churches with buildings, one-man pastor/deacon systems, ETC…Romans 14:4).etc).

Personally, I’m sold out on the way they model things as it seems to be the most biblically consistent……& if you’d like more resources/info, feel free to email me:

Ggreaves103@comcast.net