His voice thunders in the ears of his sheep,
“Give god your money! It’s not yours to keep!”
They listen, they write, they pass god the check.
Tears glisten on cheeks, but he’s not finished yet.
“Why are you robbing god?” He asks with contempt.
“All should pay! And you’re not exempt!”
He’s the little “g” god, the pimp, you know
Selflessness he will never show.
But what of the sheep with his tear stained face?
The one who in him his trust did place?
What of the ones who simply believed,
All the lies that he conceived?
And what of those who truly thought
That God could not possibly be bought?
You know, the ones who prayed the prayer,
And really accepted Christ while there.
And those who truly had no clue
What the earthly god was trying to do.
(MN: This poem was contributed by Illuminated1.)
I have a question….do any of you believe in pre-tribulaton or mid-tribulation rapture?
i’m not sure how far we are allowed to take this, but i believe the Bible teaches post-trib.
et tu, tog? rme
hey tog, when i click on your name it takes me to stand-up ministries. who are you there?
Hey Mrs. Mav., I’m not any of the gentlemen or the lady. I’ve been in dialog with Tim a few times, so I support their website (thats all).
Hey Melvin. Just wanted to remind everyone not to forget the phone conference chatline from Standup Ministries tonight @ 6pm (eastern) 5pm (central) 4pm (mountain) & 3pm (pacific) on Saturday, February 23, 2008. Here’s the number: 605-475-4333. The code is: 339865# (you must hit the #key after dialing the code in order to get connected to the chatline. See you all there Lord willing!
I don’t believe in a “rapture” at all, if by “rapture” you mean that God comes and takes all believers but leaves unbelievers on Earth for some period of time. Just don’t see it spelled out like that in Scripture.
Mostly I’m a “pan”-millennialist: I think it’s all going to “pan” out in the end, har har…
Laura, I’m not particularly clear on your stance, are you saying that you don’t believe in the resurrection of the dead? Furthermore, what impression does 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 make on you? ….Waiting on your response, thanks
Haha… no, of course I am in agreement with 1 Cor 15; I would be a heretic if I didn’t believe in the resurrection of the dead!! I think Scripture is crystal clear about that.
What I don’t think Scripture is crystal clear about is the modern idea of a “rapture” — a la the Left Behind series — where unbelievers are left on Earth for some length of time after the Lord catches up those who remain. Regarding the passage you referenced, I think that “Left Behind”-ish idea of a rapture takes the simple language of 1 Thess 4 and turns it into a major event somehow separate from the return of Christ, the bodily resurrection of the dead, and the New Heavens and New Earth. From my reading of Scripture, I see all those events happening pretty simultaneously. I also just don’t see any evidence in Scripture that the Lord’s purpose of salvation is ever accomplished apart from the presence of his Church, which is how it would have to happen in case of a Rapture!
However, I think it’s important to keep in mind that the book of Revelation (and “end-times” prophecy in general) is our Isaiah, so to speak. There’s a lot of mystery in Isaiah, especially to its contemporary audience — a lot of stuff they didn’t figure out until after the foretold events took place, and I think the same will undoubtedly be true of the prophecies given to us. I hold my eschatology with an open hand, and I’m willing to be proven wrong, because I believe that the purpose of the Bible’s eschatological prophecy is to exhort the believer to be ready at all times for dramatic events leading up to the triumphant, inevitable return of our Victorious Savior and King (hallelujah!), rather than to motivate us to parse every Greek verb and try to come up with a timeline of eschatological events.
Hope that answers your questions and addresses your concerns… (Just to recap, resurrection YES and essential, rapture maybe and non-essential).
Thanks Lauren, i think we are in agreement on the issue. Apparently, I misinterpreted your original comment….. Mybad.
I believe in a Pre-Trib rapture that occurs in the Mid of the Post Trib era.
LOLz, Gary!
Illuminated indeed……..nice job!!
Yes, the Revelation of Jesus Christ is also his day of judgement for the church, the ungodly, and the sinners so there is no pre or mid rapture. And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
Awesome poem…..He must have been at the same bible study that I was at on Wednesday night. The guess pastor asked everyone in the congregation to give “$500″ for new businesses to proper 30 fold within 30 days. I never imagined that this could happen at my church! Or maybe, I’m just begining to see the Light!
Wow. Makes you think, doesn’t it?
Interesting poem. It makes me think how powerful these “pastors” feel when they stand before people and command them to do things. And they must REALLY feel powerful when the folks in the “church” actually do they what they say. Be it giving up some money, or having folks take 3 minutes to dream at Wednesday night “Bible study”.
Take a moment to guess which scenario happened to me this past WEDNESDAY night.
(MN: I assume then that you are in fact ignoring the great big flashing letters written across that sky that say “MELANIE, GET THE HECK OUT OF DODGE BEFORE THEY SUCK YOU DRY!!!” )
No, Melvin not ignoring but sloooooowly making my exit. After the StandUp Conf. in NJ, I would have been gone by now but for the fact I was asked to get involved with women’s ministry. Now that is where my heart is —seeing women in the WORD and mature and not one of those silly women ever learning and never coming to the truth.
The one thing I am praying about now is for wisdom. Perhaps my own silly ego is keeping me there… as if my presence can make a difference.
Then on another note, I long to be in a fellowship with spiritually mature saints in leadership and where the Word of God is preached.
So my plan unless God says differently is to fulfill my obligation for this year and then I am out by Christmastime perhaps.
(MN: I can understand that. Just be careful. It is likely that if you have ANY ability at all to present the truth, and if you have any penchant to make friends and help people, they are going to do all they can to keep you their. Do, as you said, use wisdom. Do keep Christ squarely in front of you, not losing sight of Him. )
Melanie,
I am not quite sure what is going on at your church, seems like you have some pimps running the place? Although you might have been asked to be involved with the women’s ministry, you are still sitting under false teachings and pimps. The better testimony would be to leave and when asked why, let them know. There may be other people who also feel the same, but also don’t know how or when to leave. The wisdom is in the Lords WORD, and he already tells us to separate from those who pervert his word(nope, not good on getting the exact verse from my limited memory these days, sorry).
Mary Ann in NJ
Hi, me again. read my post. I really commend you for wanting to be true to your commitment to this women’s ministry, but your obligation first is to the Lord. It’s hard to leave. I did it several years ago, although the church wasn’t pimping, they were just so scripturally off base. I felt like i was betraying my testimony by staying there. and that was after talking many times to the pastor. And i truly understand your desire for spiritually sound fellowship. Honor the Lord and he will lead you to where you need to be.
(MN: ; - ))
praying that you will
Mary Ann
You will be looking for a long time if you are looking for a church in which the preacher/pastor will give you the True Word of God. They do not exist…..although one would like to be hopeful.
Poem looks good…and as far as the question above, I believe in a pre-tribulation rapture.
I really like this poem. Can Illuminated please write more?
(MN: As long as you make a love offering of $100 or more to “Illuminated1’s Poetry Ministry” The address just happens to be the same as that of the Melvinite Temple of Fantastic Happenings. You know the address by heart by now (12456 Anathema Lane, Bowie MD 20745) and you know our motto (In God we trust. All others pay with cash, certified checks or money orders). Send your money in now and get a rhyming blessing! )
BTW i’m a little suprised that no one has discussed the recent allegations againt “Pastor” Sherman Allen. Disclaimer (Some of the material is worse than Tonex, be on guard) http://www.dallasobserver.com/2008-02-21/news/pentecostal-preacher-sherman-allen-turns-out-to-be-reverend-spanky/1
Good grief TOG……..I need some of that eye wash.
Nah Gary, you need a whole body wash.
Well, I needed that before I even read this article. But my Springtime bath is still almost 2 months away.
ok, this is where i stopped reading. this is what was written in the article: Why did the paddlings, beatings and alleged sexual abuse go on unchecked for so many years when so many people knew about it? To answer that question, one has to delve into the black Pentecostal subculture, where churchgoers are continually warned to “keep your mouth off the man of God,” regardless of what kind of life he lives. God will rebuke him, the teaching goes; all you should do is pray.
i should never have read the article. it stole my joy.
well Mrs Mav., now we can see first hand where the “keep you mouth off the mand of Gawd” really does the people good. I mean come on, whats so wrong with rape and sodomy? Since none of us are perfect, we might as well just let God deal with it. Oh, and don’t forget David and errr!! Paul…………………….
Truthofgod: Those are some very nasty public allegations. Even for an unbeliever to be charged with so many similar assaults boggles the mind. It sounds like something Stephen King would use as a plot, it is so creepy: a COGIC pastor who practices voodoo, who uses counseling sessions to brutally spank his counselees, then sodomizes them with clubs. Then to have all the victims bring it to the jurisdictional bishop, who does nothing, not even go to the police with them.
Why does the appearance of Juanita Bynum in the story not surprise me? Why does her statement of being assaulted by “14 sex demons” not surprise me either? Of course, she has to have the most outrageous claim in that extremely outrageous story.
In any event, that was the most sordid story I think I’ve ever come across about a church pastor.
And, yes, I agree with you that the material is worse than Tonex’s. And, it is written up in a large newspaper.
Stan, there is enough material in this article to discuss for days. They are absolutely horrific and very sad. The thing i can’t get past is that the women were voluntarily going back to him. I know they were likely “brain washed”, for lack a better term, but geez!
However, we shouldn’t be surprised based upon the fact that this is fulfilling prophesey:
2 Timothy 3:6-9
“6They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over weak-willed women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth. 8Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth—men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. 9But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.”
I saw this on another site a few days ago….absolutely repulsing, to say the least. I am very certain that the people victimized in these ungodly situations were hideously embarassed by what has taken place. I do not know of any other venue, other than a cult or a grossly abusive household, where ANY person would allow themselves to be subjected to such disgusting and painful activity.
The catholic church-style cover-up of these events warrants nothing less than hell for those in “leadership” that ALLOWED these degrading and soul-destroying activities to take place on THEIR WATCH and WITH THEIR KNOWLEDGE!!
Ultimately, it showed that the victims were ignorant concerning the Word. The end results proved that ignorance quite well.
Really thought-provoking poem, Bro. Melvin. As goes the question, I’m a dispensationalist so I’m pre-trib
Melvin,
Poem was on target. It’s amazing how people actually become hypnotized when the pastor starts speaking the “sowing seed, meet a need” script. By the way, based on scripture,there is no pre-trib rapture. Has anyone heard of Margaret MacDonald and her vision of a” secret rapture”, which is how we got this pre-trib doctrine. By the way, I believe in post-trib rapture. When does that “last trumpet sound” actually take place? Questions and food for thought.
Grace and Peace
I don’t know what I believe anymore. I used to believe in pre-trib, published a book about it. Now, with the things that have happened to me and that I am going through now, all I know is I want my pain to stop, however that happens.
To Stymmom1012: Just to let you know that I am praying for you. I am sure each believer who reads your post will do the same. Let us know what the Lord does for you. I am praying that whatever is causing your pain, that God delivers you from your trouble, and that He gives quietness and tranquility to your life so that you may lead it in godliness and all honesty and that He makes your life productive and that you are able to attend to all your proper business that you need to do. (1 Timothy 2:1-2; 1 Thessalonians 4:11-12). Remember too, the instructions in Philippians 4:6 and James 5:13. God bless you!!
Stan
Thank you.
stvmmom1012, sometimes we have to endure. Just endure. God is still Sovereign, and He will not let you be tempted with more than you can bear. It may SEEM more than you can bear (been there,done that), but He will see you through.
Stick around……….we love you here.