A couple of people have pointed out the possibility that the site I have presented may not contain material that is from his hand; that it is actually a phantom site pretending to be his.
Another also suggested that I remove the contents of the posting until I can somehow verify the site as belonging to and written by Tonex. This seems prudent and the right thing to do.
While I’m not sure how, exactly, I can prove without a shadow of a doubt that the site belongs to Tonex, I will give it a good shot. If any of you have any suggestions I am certainly open to them. For me, the schedule of apperances and a couple of other things indicated authenticity. However, I will have to rethink this position.
Gosh I hope I didn’t make a mistake.
Jonesy-the-Man-Jones,
May I add to your comments on the singer confused about his sexual orientation and your critics “who give approval to those who do” (Rom. 1:32): True churches do not accept homosexuals into membership, nor do they allow them to serve as musicians, choir directors, preachers, or pastors - speaking only of the places churches tend to make excuses for such behavior. As I said in a recent Facebook note, “The order of Creation orders everything… The church is the pillar for the truth in the world (I Tim. 3:14-16). If we do not have this right, truth is lost forever in society. Homosexuality is people sticking up their middle finger to God, holding up a splintered pole and telling him to bend over, and then attempting to urinate on him, spit on him, and run over him in an SUV loaded down with fertilizer. What you are saying when you embrace (or say nothing about the ill of ) homosexuality is that God (and his word) does not matter at all! You have said to him, ‘take your order of Creation and $#%&*! ….’ I cannot stand for that.”
(MN: Come on Eric. Don’t be shy. Say what you REALLY mean. )
For a great dicsussion on the significance of the order of Creation, and how everything is ordered around it, tell your critics (if they really wish to think and not simply vomit the pro-pimp mantras) to see Albert Wolters: .
Moreover, for your readers, they might find “The Church Does Not Welcome Homosexuals,” the appendix in my forthcoming book, Where Are All The Brothers? Straight Answers to Men’s Questions About the Church, to be helpful in becoming wise, discerning and truthful about the issue of homoseuxality (and the down low) in the African American Church.
Anyone who criticizes you for criticizing Tonex cannot possibly be a believer, or he or she is at a church that does not preach the truth, or he or she is at a church that preaches and practices the truth, but he or she has chosen to reject the truth. True churches do not allow for homosexuality in the membership, and believers in Christ do not stand for this sin in the camp.
Thank you for allowing me to make comments at your critics. Keep up the good work.
ECR
Man Eric you don’t hold punches do you brother LOL.
I agree with the majority of your post. However I must say brother what sin did you carry into the church before you answered the call of the Spirit and got saved. Are the sins you and I were forgiven of less shameful to the Lord. What I mean is if we say “The church does not welcome homosexuals” are we cutting off a segment of society from hearing about the redemptive power that comes from having faith in the Christ. In other words if I made a claim that “the church does not welcome wife abusers”. Is that misrepresenting God ?
Believe me brother we are on the same side. This foolish idea that homosexuality is not a sin. Or that a gay pastor is ok with the Lord is pure stupidity. It is so far from the truth that it’s a shame we even have to discuss it. I encourage the people I serve to invite gays, drug addicts ,alcoholics and the people other churches don’t like to witness too. I tell them bring them to our church. Where they will hear that God’s grace is also available to them. They will also hear that they are required to repent and walk away from the sinful lifestyle that they are walking in. Some walk away quickly some the struggle is greater. However if we the church can’t extend grace to those that need it the most, that my friend is a shame.
TO: JCrep32: You said: “This foolish idea that homosexuality is not a sin. Or that a gay pastor is ok with the Lord is pure stupidity. It is so far from the truth that it’s a shame we even have to discuss it.”
At what point does the Word of God come in:
Deuteronomy 13:5; 19:19; 22:21 and 24; 24:7
1 Corinthians 6:9 and 15:33
1 Timothy 1:10 and God’s Truth in Leviticus, Romans, and Revelations on this age-old subject?
As far as your idea of “the truth” is concerned, Jesus defines the truth for His Body and the world in John 17:17, as He prayed to God, the Father for His Body: “Sanctify them in the truth, Your word is truth.” Can you top this????? If so, please support it with Scripture.
(MN: Beryle, I think JCrep is saying that the Bible supports the assertion that homosexuality is wrong. )
Thanks Uncle Mel, that is exactly what I was saying. Homosexuality is SIN. I am sorry if my position was not clear. Beryle please read my post again. The bible is very clear on this issue. I was just saying that is shameful and foolish that this is even a point of debate for some.
My point of contention with Eric. Is that he makes it seem that the grace that the Lord graciously gave to those that trust in Him isn’t
available to homosexuals.
(MN: I believe Eric was saying that the Church is no place for a practicing homosexual to be tolerated as a practicing homosexual and a member. If he is unrepentant, he should not be allowed to be a member, nor fellowship with the believers as though he is not doing anything wrong. If he want to come to church and listen, fine. But no communion or other forms of acceptance. But the same rule applies for those who are not saved - no communion, no Christian fellowship. )
How can one repent unless God give them repentance….You guys act like repenting is in our hands. The Church (the false church) is where homosexuality is created. You might as well call it the factory. They go in one way and come out another…..the latter end worse is than the beginning.
Anonymous, you’re absolutely correct that repentance is given by God alone.However, God not only grants repentance, He grants the METHOD by which men are brought to repentance, which is the hearing of the Word.
It’s the same principle in Salvation. God alone grants it, but He also grants the METHOD by which saving faith is conferred: The preaching of the Word.
Romans 10:17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God
Acts 15:7
God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
2 Tim 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
So you see, God has ordained that repentance and salvation are both brought about through the ministry of the Word. Therefore, for those who care about Tonex’s eternal destiny, the only means God has designated to bring him to repentance is to confront him with the Word.
We can’t MAKE Tonex repent. Tonex can’t MAKE himself repent. Only God can do that, and He has chosen to do so through the presentation of the Word.
Remember, it is the Word that COMMANDS all men everywhere to repent.
Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth (through the Word) all men every where to repent:
When we call for his repentance by citing the Word, we are not telling him to make himself repent. We are presenting him with the only means on earth which God uses to BRING people to repentance……..The Word.
This is what the bible says in 2Tim2:25-26
[25] In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; IF GOD PERADVENTURE WILL GIVE THEM REPENTANCE TO THE ACKNOWLEDGING OF THE TRUTH;
[26] And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
Right…….but He DOES it (as the Scriptures testify) through His Word. Where was I unclear??
TO JCrep & Melvin: Sorry, my Brothers, my bad. I’ll definitely re-read the post again. Some-
times my one-track mind gets me in trouble
Oh my God…
Just when I thought the interview on “Lift EveryVoice” (Bet) last week left me speechless, If I had not seen it with me own eyes I would have never believed it… Tonex was on the show boasting about his Homosexuality saying that he told us about his experiences if we were really listened to the CD “Out the Box” he even bragged on masturbating the host of the show Bro. Gerard just sat there dumbfounded, smiling not knowing what to say, even on that show his mouth was a garbage can…
WOW……………. WOW…………….Reprobateness running wild!!!Truly sickening. Yes, we all fall short, etc….. like Melvin said but how do you reconcile that with what the Apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 5:2 and 5:6???
Nonetheless, its hard to say he isn’t reprobate.
Again I have to say WOW!!!
The Bath water is running…….
Agreed, this had my mouth literally opened. Actually this had me thinking. I wonder whether or not he’s still pastoring?
To my understanding, no he is not. During his father’s illness and then after his death, he was pastoring at his father’s church. Presently, Tonex’s mother has been the pastor of the church
We do not fall short…..that is what all these false pastors and TEACHERS keep saying…… 2Peter1: 10 says: Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if you DO THESE THINGS, YOU SHALL NEVER FALL: Jude 1:24 says: Now unto Him that is able to KEEP YOU FROM FALLING, and to present you FAULTLESS before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,……
(MN: I added the name. He or she commented as Anonymous. He/se had more to say, but he/she insists on not using a handle. )
I’ll chime in on this once again, can and is God able to teach ‘his’ people anything “with” a completed bible in these days? But once again where would God be without man, stuck I guess. But here we are with one Apostles Doctrine in our hands, and one holy spirit in our hearts. But I guess we will always need another man’s heart to learn!!!!!! But does Jerermiah 17:9 apply to all or not? So learn from the bible “but” don’t ever count on anyone for yourself in these days. Let’s not forget, who in these days teaches the teachers? What I’m talking about is after the bible was completed who taught
the teachers please don’t say God did!!
There are already plenty of people supporting Tonex and his actions.
IMO I believe that the “Black” pentecostal church nowadays is fertile ground for such behaviour to flourish. The hypocrisy is breathtaking - sheeple will say “don’t juuuuudge” when it comes to the likes of Tonex, and then turn around and heap all manner of insults on you should you critique their Pulpit Pimp.
I don’t feel sorry for him because he chooses to do what he is doing. I feel sorry for the idiots who are so lost in their allegiance to him that they will still support him and then yell don’t judge. He has definitely entered the reprobate zone and it’s by his own doing. The first time I heard his name, even before I ever heard any of his music, my spirit didn’t set well. Then I kept hearing all the “how great thou arts” about what a great musician he was and how he was a “genius” musically, and still didn’t feel good in my spirit about him. Finally, I started to hear and see how ungodly he was and it all made sense. It’s called “DISCERNMENT” and we can all benefit from it. I may not always know why the Lord puts warnings in us, but we’d do good to take heed and stop ignoring them. Now he proves that my decision to heed the warnings was correct. I would even go as far as to say that I think that he is and was a plant from the enemy to infiltrate the church so as to destroy young people with his “keeping it real” gospel. To feel sorry for him to me is like feeling sorry for a pedophile because it was done to them. Sure, you wish what happened to them hadn’t happened, but at some point they need to get help and not choose to do to someone else what was done to them and use that experience as justification. I feel sorry for the young people who are being spiritually raped by this blaspheming train wreck. I thank the Holy and Living God for His direction. It keeps us from following after the devil. And trust, people are already supporting him on his myspace page. Watch and see how many “Church Leaders” will continue to do the same.
Also, his sorry apology he should have kept (it looks like it’s gone from youtube). Why did he even waste his time? But even viewing that let you know that there is no repentance in his heart and he boldly thumbs his nose at God.
Trayjay, I just latched onto the phrase “keeping it real” in your post. Where does that phrase comes from? Did you just make it up? I am asking because I was asked to chair the women’s ministry at my church and some of the ladies on the committee use that phrase alot. However, I really don’t know what they mean by it.
What do folks mean when they use that phrase “keeping it real”? It is it a cover for saying any and everything regardless of whether it is edifying or wholesome?
Saying what every you want under the misconseption that “we need to stop being fake and let it all hang out” “lets be real” is what it means. Even when it hurts people and people are abused in ministries.
I have seen this so much I am sick of it. There are times that words must not be minced, but it is taken to outlandish degrees where folks are saying things that should not be descussed over the pulpit, People are talked to lay members any kind of way by leadership, and the sheep are following suit.
There are so many people in ministries who are living in unrepent sin. One co-worker went to a well known ministry in the Pittsbugh City area and she was heavily involved in the chior there. She was living with her boyfriend for years.
How can there be so many unsaved people in the church. It is one thing if you are activly trying to root out your issue, but it is completly another to be living all kinds of ways and get defensive about what your doing. And these people go to spirit filled churches.
I dont know what the say except these are trying times for the Body, and I dont no if any of these sheeple that are supporting his stuff realize it.
This is a symptom of a bigger problem in the black church period. I wonder when we will pay more attention to our theology and a little less on folks that are exposed reprobates.
hi wbarg03,
you said: How can there be so many unsaved people in the church. the reality is, there are no unsaved people in the Church; in the various places where the Church gathers, sure- but in God’s Church, absolutely not. Romans 8:9
Mrs. Mav, you are so right. And the differences between God’s true church and the so-called church becomes obvious when a member of either begins to speak long enough, i.e. Tonex.
hi melanie,
the Word of God says it best; Luke 6:45 “A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure in his heart bringeth forth that which is evil; for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh”.
bytheway sis, Lord willing, hope to hear you on line this saturday :o)
What’s the time and number, my little Mav??
paisano, same time, same place, same bat channel.
as it was 2 weeks ago: (605) 475-4333 ext. 339865 then #. gee whiz, why melville doesn’t keep abreast of these things is baffling. dee has to work this weekend so unless his schedule changes, he won’t be able to participate- but most likely he’ll hit saiko up on the “after” conference call. that’s when all get-out breaks loose. Lord willing, i’ll be in my usual place listening in ever so quietly…..
(MN: I likely will make a posting referring to it this evening. )
I love you, sis mav…..
Definately feel ya regarding the “after” conference call (where the “lurkers” of the conversation start to come out after dark and get in their two cents, lol)…….
Heaven help us when everyone meets in person…..the way many of the kats were talking, part of me still wanted everyone to sing “Kum-ba-ya” afterward (lol)…….
i love you too, lil brah :o)
Mrs. Mav, Lord willing I’ll be on the conference call. More likely than not I will be silently listening. I learn more that way but knowing me I’ll be compelled to add my 2 cents. LOL
Double G, I feel ya on that one. But I hope you will still participate on the call. Okay let’s break out a chorus of “Kum-ba-ya” in preparation for the next call. One and-a two and-a…..
Wb, thanks. I asked the women but I got no clear understanding of what they meant. Nevertheless, I am still uncomfortable with the concept of “keeping it real”.
When you think it, Tonex is just keeping it real. If you read some of the responses to his myspace page the participants seem to be praising him for his “realness” as if airing all your sin is some type of virtue. I say keep the details of your dirty laundry and keep listening to the gospel until God grants you repentance that leads to salvation. The ladies and I will be meeting in small groups soon and I am so concerned that they will want to give details of their immorality under the guise of “keeping it real”. Well I could be wrong. I can be hyper-vigilant sometimes.
Melanie,
“keeping it real” to me is being honest and not decietful. By the same token, I believe when a born-again believer uses it, he/she should not use it to condone or justify sin and weights that maybe in their lives. It should be used to say, “Yes, this is wrong with me or this is the way that I feel, but I know that I need to fix that, quick, fast and in a hurry!” I agree that people use this term to justify the sin that rest in their lives, but in the end, God doesn’t want to hear how “we kept it real”. He’s going to want to know, “Why didn’t you seek me to make you real (a real and true believer).
Righter thinks this is an excellent analysis
I think the phrase varies dependent upon who uses it and its context. For some I think it means a level of honesty, transparency, etc. Showing a sense of vulnerability and understanding to those you are trying to reach.
Righter agrees
“Keeping it real” is a bogus catch-all to justifying sin. It’s all about the illusion of transparency however lacking any repentance. It’s all about giving the impression that “they” are not “fake” and freely admit they are sinners. They are not one of “those” self-righteous Christians who point the finger in judgment….tey are are “keeping it real”. They are “sinners who are trying to live righteous but we’re all sinners….we’re just honest about ours….”
I prefer the phrase “Keepin’ it carnal”. It’s more “real”.
I still contend that it depends on the person, context, etc. We can’t say that using the phrase “keeping it real” is bogus or giving an illusion of transparency. That is too far of a generalization for me…But to each his own on that one, I guess.
That sums it up, GaryV. What people need to be pushing is “Let’s keep it HOLY!” But then, that would mean that most of the mend uv gawd would have nothing to say.
I don’t know where it came from but it is not a godly attitude to have when it stems from spewing out the blaspemous porn that usually comes before it. More and more “leaders” in the “church” are using it so that they can feel free to be unnecessarily graphic. The Bible can tell us a story about someone doing the wrong thing without making you feel like you have to repent after reading it. But these “leaders” of today want us to believe that it’s okay to be graphic and necessary to get their point across. Example: the pole scene in woman thou art loosed. You can write a story and let me know that she was an exotic dancer without making every man (and some women) fall into temptation with video graphics. This phrase most likely is straight from the world and like many other things, being brought into the church to appeal to the people instead of just being sanctified in telling people the truth. Jesus did not say, Go your way and sin no more by doing XYZ. He didn’t need to expound on what was being done.
Another way to look at it is an exposing phrase that reveals just how much these “leaders” need to be delivered. Out of the abundance of the heart does the mouth speak. If your “keeping it real” begins to borderline being nasty, disrespectful, or in any way unholy, then you simply let the world know that you need help.
Greetings Everyone,
TrayJay your comment “Let’s Keep it HOLY” challenges all Christians to do right and live right in the sight of God and mankind. Where is the fear of God in the Church body? Many Christians who have fallen astray are decieved that God won’t pass judgement on them while they continue in their sinful ways. They believe they are protected because they wear the “christian” label. The sad thing is these disobedient “christians” will soon find out like Israel that God’s grace and mercy extended in to a spanking of correction (captivity) for trying to serve Him and Baal.
Just because God is silent doesn’t mean His wrath is not going to fall on those who live in disobedience and mock Him! God is no respector of persons (Romans 2:11).
We need to continue to pray for those who have fallen astray from the Church to repent, follow God and live Holy!
Concerned Sunday School Teacher
“Keeping it Real” is a phrase that a lot of church people use, to affirm their inner purpose, as to why they are in church(which is to follow the Word of God and be a better Christian).
In other words, it means they embrace the unadulterated truth, that God tells, in His Word.
Jon,how does that definition comport with the filthy tirade Tonex posted under the justification of “Keepin’ it real”??
Okay, let’s see if my comments post.
As a result of participating in this site I have come into contact with other sites and I learned of Paul Washer a missionary from HeartCry. Long story short I have listened to some of his sermons and he says that America is gospel deprived. I agree. We assume and I say “we” in a general sense think that what we hear in churches is the gospel. Yes, I know there must be places where the gospel is preached but they seem few and far between at least in black churches. Again I am speaking of my experience. I say all this to say that Tonex may seem to be aberration but he is not otherwise how could homosexuals, lesbians, fornicators, and adulterers sit comfortably in church week after week and look at you crazy if you dare say they need to stop having sex outside marriage (not same sex.). I heard of one guy say, I ain’t giving up sex.
That is why we must contend earnestly for the faith. Folks who are unrepentant sinners and show you by their words and actions over and over again are lost or need to be turned over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so that they may be saved in the day of the Lord (1Cor. 5:5). I don’t know what more can be said. And folks who say we can’t judge don’t know the Scriptures. We are not to judge with hypocrisy (Matt. 7:1-5) but there is such a thing as judging righteously and judging a so-called brother (See 1Cor. 5).
All we can do is have mercy on some who are doubting, save others–snatching them out of the very fires of hell, and on some have mercy with fear hating even the garment polluting by the flesh. (Jude 21-22).
I am going to go pray for Tonex.
In the words of that famous comedian Martin Lawrence, “You go girl”! To my legalistic, Pharasaic brothers & sisters out there who claim to never watch his show (yeah right!). What I meant to say was, “Amen sister”!
Tsk, Tsk (with an accusatory finger), PASTOR Saiko…we know what you do in your spare time.
Wait …, I have just condemned myself by acknowledging that I even understand the reference. Uh well…disregard.
Still Think G Craige Lewis was not on Point?
I don’t think anyone disagreed with Craige with respect to the depravity going on in the church. My issue is with some of his inaccuracies, exaggerations, and experience based doctrine.
As I’ve said before, even a blind squirrel finds an acorn every once in a while.
I read bits and pieces of the myspace page and felt sinful just processing his words in my head. I pray that he comes to a saving knowledge of Christ. Does he continue to pastor? If so, that’s beyond frightening.
I can’t imagine anyone who claims to know the Lord to think this is remotely okay. We also need to pray for all the lost people who post comments on his page. This is all so sad, but in the end sin is sin. Why should wickedness among the lost surprise us?
I just realized I still had 2 Tonex cd’s — let me get them out of my house… NOW!!!!
And to think that there are many in Leadership that would offer the same advise (off the record) to someone “struggling” or may prey on their “struggle” for their own desires. THAT is the scary thing.
Yikes… I had to quit reading! I can’t handle that much blasphemy until I’ve had my morning coffee.
This is sickening. Isn’t he a pastor now? He mentioned that he doesn’t read the word any more but meditates on it. How do you meditate on something you don’t know or understand? The bible said, “you will know them by their fruit.” the fruit that is produced by him and others of the like are fruit of the flesh and not of the spirit. He also said he does not fear God, but he meant afraid. He said it right the 1st time. Because the fear of God is the beginning of knowledge. there is a difference between fear and afraid or scared.
Yochee, yes he assumed pastorship over his father’s church when he died nearly two years ago.
I also read Tonex’s latest blog entry, as well as viewed his “…Naked Truth” video. There is no doubt what he suffered as a child is horrendous, and by all means needs help. However, I believe we are all in agreement that, at this point, he indeed has been turned over to a reprobate mind.
What’s worse is that he has a very strong following of children and younger adults who do not have the necessary discernment to turn away from Tonex. I also agree with daughter’s assertion that the black pentacostal church has provided the necessary atmosphere for such behavior to be birthed and flourish w/o resistance.
Personally, I am at a point now of walking away from the church entirely because of these behaviors, and the church simply refusing to address these most pressing issues.
N’Catina
Don’t let anyone cause you to isolate yourself from the church. Pray and ask God to lead to a household of faith that is a Bible believing and Bible teaching church. He will do it. The enemy wants to use this and have God’s people saying to themselves “that’s why I don’t go to church anymore “or “I will just stop going”. Once you do that, you open up yourself to pride (with the concept of their are no Godly people out there), which is not true. God still has a remnant of people that have the desire to serve and worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. Be Encouraged and not Discouraged
Grace and Peace
Sharon, I have already applied myself to the prayer process regarding the decision to leave my current church. The writing to do such as been far too evident as of late, with too many scriptures presented here and elsewhere eluding to separating from those that practice lawlessness.
It is not an issue of leaving because of some individual’s petty behavior. The decision has been from a culmination of the willful and deliberate behavior of the body at-large for allowing itself to be subjected to the delusions of the world, and my not wishing to suffer the consequences of my association with it.
I am more than aware that “the enemy…” is “at work” with what is happening, but to play along to get along is simply not acceptable. I can continue to pray for deliverance for the church outside of it.
(MN: No one is saying you should play along to get along. But you have to look to find a healthy church. And it might not be predominately of whatever race you are. )
My worship, I believe, can be done from the outside until such time I am led to a congregation that has its head on straight concerning the Word of God.
(MN: Maybe I’m just missing it, but how do you find one, how are you “led” to it, unless you get out there and look? OR are you counting on some supernatural coincidence to get you to a healthy church? )
“Maybe I’m just missing it, but how do you find one, how are you “led” to it, unless you get out there and look? OR are you counting on some supernatural coincidence to get you to a healthy church?”
I have been on an active “hunt” to look for another congregation, with the understanding that being in fellowship is important–race is not an issue with me, doctrine is. (I live in Philadelphia where the vast majority of the congregations here are either Catholic, Baptist or AME, as an FYI.) I am using these sites, prayer and scripture as a guide to the search for another church.
My contention is what to do IN THE INTERIM PERIOD. This is why I made mention of not “playing along” until I find another location.
I do have mature believers as friends and close associates, so I will not be “in isolation,” as Sharon or others may believe.
(MN: My apologies. I was just worried that you were going the path of “I will leave the church I’m at now when God shows me I should leave.” You sound as if you are chasing a similar path as Mrs. Mav. I trust it will work out for you. )
Melvin, no problem–my apologies for not giving clarity in the earlier post. Again, the infiltration of satan in the churches, with the church’s help, makes me want to pull away altogether, but I do recognize the importance of keeping fellowship. It’s just a matter of finding another place of worship that has its head on straight concerning the Word of God.
As well, thanks so very much for your site and others that allow us to gain education and further insight into what is going on around us and the “Christian Community,” in general.
I did take a look at more recent posting on Tonex’s MySpace blog where he makes mention of being in hole by nearly a couple of thousand dollars. As he complains of having to pay his ex-wife alimony (I’m surprised to hear of alimony judgments these days), he is at a point of eating “toast and popcorn” with “KoolAid” along with having critical apartment and car payments coming due. This can be looked at as the punishment he is suffering, in part, from engaging in his ridiculous behavior and the “money engines” (the record companies and industry affiliates) pulling aways from him and not having any real prospects of replacing that income.
Indeed, the chickens are coming home to roost.
N’Catina:
I apologize if it sounded like I said that you were isolating yourself. I said that, that is something that I did not want to see happen to you. I sincerely pray that, with the help of the Lord, you do find a church that you are able to fellowship in.
Grace and Peace
Thanks for your prayers and concern.
hi n’cantina,
since melville dragged my name into it…..
i agree with your decision to not just play along to get along. works for me. oh, and i haven’t isolated myself from the rest of the body either- i just fellowship in a manner that’s less traditional than what many in the Church do.
There is no schism in the Body of Christ……..but a lot of schism within and between organizations.
BUT…….that is a GOOD thing.
It’s funny you make mention of fellowshipping “in a manner less traditional than what many in the church do.”
I was in a similiar conversation with a very good friend of mine, who is a minister, along with his wife and another person last Fourth of July, when this issue was raised at that time. We all conferred that there are too many congregations involved in “playing church” and not having any degree of effectiveness in the world around them. It brought to mind the scripture of “…not forsaking the assembling of yourselves…” (sorry, I can’t think of the precise scripture, but I’m sure someone on here will post it for me :o)). The point made then was people congregating to worship God and fellowship among believers outside of the traditional church model. The scripture is often used to implore people to be involved with a church, but another interpretation I encountered last summer was to simply fellowship among other believers OUTSIDE of the church setting.
There are many reasons why people pursue this route among the many examples of corruption posted here and elsewhere.
Nonetheless, I do believe there are churches, at least in this area, that do exist that do not bow to the god of this world.
paisano, why do you say it is a good thing that there are schisms within and between organizations? what’s so good about it?
n’cantina,
the scripture you are referring to is Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
if i don’t remember any other Scripture in the the Bible but one, it will be Hebrews 10:25. i can’t even begin to number the amount of times my brothers & sisters in Christ have reminded me of this one particular verse ever since my husband and i took a less traditional approach to fellowshipping.
i don’t know…, perhaps they assumed we were going to become hermits and keep to ourselves, lol. impossible for us because we’re both outgoing people persons. not only that, but how can any real believer not want to be around the family of God?
bytheway, i agree with you that there are Churches that haven’t cast their lot in with the world.
ps. if you’re able to, please join in on the next telephone conference call taking place this saturday, feb 26th and add your voice.
Mrs. Mav,
Not to answer for Gary, but think about his statement…No schism in THE BODY OF CHRIST…Schisms WITHIN AND BETWEEN ORGANIZATIONS, many of which have nothing to do with the true body of Christ…Perhaps the “good” thing about there being schisms in organizations is that God would cause controversy within that organization in order to call out the remnant of His elect who may be a part of groups that are heretical in nature, in order that they may be aligned and in fellowship with the true church…Hope this makes it a little clearer…More importantly to GV, I hope this is what you are implying, if not please correct…
Soli Deo Gloria,
R4C
N’Catina,
It’s Hebrews 10:25, and yes I do believe that it gives a deeper connotation than just a public congregational setting…I normally love to square this fellowship oriented concept with Acts 2:44-46, which reads:
“And all who believed were together and had all things common. And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need. And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they recieved their food with glad and generous hearts, praising God and having favor with all people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.” (ESV)
It’s good to note that this passage not only refers to temple meeting, but also the house to house fellowship that is greatly missed and much desired in our churches today. I’m inclined to think that both have their significance and purpose, and both are of great necessity to the believer. There is definitely an element of uniqueness and candidness that can be displayed in non-traditional and private settings, as we reflect on God’s word, His goodness and His mercy in small groups and even alone. In addition, there is the great privilege and joy we have of proclaiming in the congregation of the righteous the words of the psalmist David, “My soul shall make her boast in the Lord: the meek shall hear thereof, and be glad. O magnify the LORD with me, and let us exalt his name together.” (Psalms 34:2-3) I believe this is where the wonderful union of private and public worship gives God the glory due His name. I was reading some of your comments about the struggles of finding a biblically based church. Certainly been there, and would love to chat with you offline about it if you so desire. My road has been rather interesting. If you are willing, just ask Mel for my email address, and I’ll be glad to converse with you…
Solus Christus,
R4C
R4C & Mrs. Maverick, I thank you both for your input (see, I knew someone was going to provide that reference scripture..) :o)
My immediate time, unfortunately, does not allow for me to be a part of the scheduled phone conference on Saturday, but would be more than inclined for you to reach me via e-mail.
Melvin, can you be kind enough in your next posting update to provide R4C & mrs. maverick my e-mail address? Thanks so much!
(MN: No problem. I’ll send it directly to them. Just make sure you remind me. )
Hi Mav!! Our friend R4C nailed it. As you always remind us Mav (and rightly so) the church isn’t the buildings or organizations, it’s comprised of the Body of Christ (believers). Within that Body, there is no schism. We are one in Him.
However, God uses division initially to separate his Elect from the world:
Luke 12:51 Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52 From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. 53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother‑in‑law against daughter‑in‑law and daughter‑in‑law against mother‑in‑law.”
Then to separate the Elect from the false converts in the church:
Deut 13:1“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder,2and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’3you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul”
Here it is in the literal Hebrew ……….word for word.
`When there ariseth in your midst a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he hath given unto thee a sign or wonder,
and the sign and the wonder hath come which he hath spoken of unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods (which thou hast not known), and serve them,
thou dost not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or unto that dreamer of the dream, for Jehovah your God is trying you, to know whether ye are loving Jehovah your God with all your heart, and with all your soul;
God is Sovereign……….He allows false teachers and division in the church to test us, and to divide true believers from false converts. Those who divide from us and go after false teachers become manifest as those who were never a part of The Body of Christ,though they WERE a part of the church structure.
They may look and speak and act like Christians, so it would have been impossible for us to identify them without the division God brings by demonstrating their lack of love for the Truth.
1 Cor 11:17 In the following directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good. 18 In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. 19 No doubt there HAVE TO BE differences among you (WHY Paul???) to show which of you have God’s approval.(And which ones don’t)
1 John 2:18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They (antichrists) went out from us (the Body of Christ), but they did not REALLY belong to us. For if they had belonged to us (the Body of Christ), they would have remained with us; but their (the antichrists and their followers) leaving showed that none of them belonged to us (the Body of Christ).
God has always used false teaching and division to separate the believers from the world, and the false converts from the true Believers in both Israel and the church. This isn’t so GOD will know who are His and who are not, but so WE can know when there are wolves in our midst.
Therefore, God in His Sovereignty uses the evil already present in the hearts of the unregenerate to fulfill His Divine purposes, and thereby uses even the evil of men to bring about His Will and our good.
GaryV, excellent post as always…a great education.
Which is exactly what I am saying about you guys….Jesus said his children hear HIS VOICE and a strangers they will not follow…….what is his voice (the WORD OF GOD, THE BIBLE) nothing added to it and nothing taken away. The other God/Gospel that the scripture is referring to is ANYTHING OTHER THAN what is written in the bible. All these denominations are not of God. They came out of the true church but are not of the true. Paul said had they been of them they would have no doubt contiued with them. Christians say they believe in the Lord Jesus Christ (the Word of God….remember John, In the beginning was THE Word, and THE Word was with God, and THE Word WAS GOD (Jesus)……. that is what we are to believe on with all our hearts and minds. If you believe that the churches are good, that there are true preachers in this world, and that you can read other men’s books, listen to their tapes and be taught by them then you are still being decieved. The lord tells us to stay away. Proverbs says: AVOID IT, PASS NOT BY IT, TURN FROM IT, and PASS AWAY. THe Pharasees, Saducess, and Chief Priests (who were supposed to be of the church who said they were of seeds of Abraham) were the ones always trying to catch Jesus in his words and were in communion to kill Jesus. But the true church knows that the true seed of Abraham is Jesus and in that seed shall all nations be blessed. That seed is also called the WORD OF GOD. a Few scriptures to show you that he means just his words…..Eph. 1:13 In whom you also trusted, after that YOU HEARD THE WORD OF TRUTH, THE GOSPEL OF YOUR SALVATION: in whom also AFTER that YOU BELIEVED, you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 2Tim.3:15 And that from a child you have known THE HOLY SCRIPTURES, which are able to make you wise UNTO SALVATION through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 2 Peter3:15 And account that the LONGSUFFERING OF OUR LORD IS SALVATION; EVEN AS our BELOVED brother PAUL ALSO according to the wisdom given unto him HAS WRITTEN UNTO YOU; as also IN ALL HIS EPISTLES (What?….all Pauls epistles is salvation????????), speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which THEY THAT ARE UNLEARNED AND UNSTABLE TWIST, as they do ALSO THE OTHER SCRIPTURES, unto THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION.
(MN: There’s something I don’t understand, Anonymous. If what you say is true, why are you trying to teach me? Shouldn’t you keep quiet and let me learn by myself? Or am I missing something? )
Hey FDM………no matter what name you choose, your song remains the same, so we know it’s you. Unfortunately, we’d rather be tied to a chair and forced to listen to “Feelings” until our heads explode than hear another round of the “Education bad, Ignorance Good” chorus”.
(MN: HEY! I have “Feelings” on repeat on my IPod. That one and “Copa Cabana”. )
That explains a lot Melvin
That man is [in one word]: IRRESPONSIBLE! If that’s how he wishes to lead his depraved life, then fine - God will judge him…but to post that on a MySpace where younger listeners to his garbage will read it is plain stupid!!!
Add to that, he is a so-called “pastor” who is living in reproach [and the worse kind if you think about it], and his “Christian life” appears more and more to be in need of re-evaluation. But then, what do I know…I’m only a 17 year old Reformed Baptist kid???
(MN: You see what those reformed Babptists have done to you Doug - they’s made you think you can judge people’s behavior based on the Bible. How outrageous is that.
You know kid, I sometimes wish I had been trained the way you are being trained when I was a kid.
Gosh! I grew up so stupid and blind. )
Melvin - can I be a mild lib taker and use your site to find out where my young friend Douglas worships. Man, he’s a Reformed Baptist - I need to link up with the brother. BTW my “home church” is the Met Tab in London (Spurgeon’s Tabernacle)
(MN: No problem Cushie. Give me your e-mail if I don’t already have it, Douglas can send me his, and I will copy you both when I respond. Douglas gets to decide if he wants to exchange e-mails )
You’re at Spurgeon’s? That’s where I’m at…very interesting, very very interesting
(MN: Okay, Here’s what you do. Both of you wear a blue carnation to church tomorrow. And at the most inappropriate time, jump up, say “Praise God!” several times while you jump up and down as if you are possessed of the Holy Spirit. Then get together after church. )
Causing disruption in church? You’re a bad dude, Mr. Jones LOL LOL
For those of you who read the entire Tonex post, P-P.org is offering anti-blasphemy eye-wash to counter the dirty feeling you get once you finish his site. </