( On several occasions readers have written comments [in this case it was to another reader by the name of Bill] that are so on the money [and too long be presented as simply a comment] that I see the necessity of promoting those comments to full-fledged postings.
BooBoo’s Daddy made such a comment. His experience is one of the reasons I maintain the site. Telling you about it, marking the wolves, and making sure you understand that they are out there will perhaps equip you to a) avoid getting sucked into the same thing yourself and b) give you information to use in rescuing those who are trapped inside the WoF/Pimp organizations or c) help you understand that you CAN walk away from these pimps.
These types of postings also help all of you to understand what the effects on the individual can be and thereby encourage you to be more willing to be very patient with individuals as they work through the damage done by the pimps and pimpettes. From my point of view, this spiritual pimping is very much like sexual abuse perpetrated by the predators. It’s very difficult to get over and hey, the abuser blames the victim for the abusive behavior. )
Bill, you say that Joyce Meyer doesn’t run a cult, otherwise you wouldn’t be in it. Let me say that the people who are in cults think the same way! Nobody likes to think that they have been deceived,. They want to think they are smart enough to know better. I assure you that if Joyce Meyer teaches the prosperity gospel or that Jesus went to hell so you wouldn’t have to (and she does!), then she IS running a cult, and if you are supporting her, then YOU ARE in a cult and you don’t even know it!
What’s more, there is probably nothing anyone here can say to you that will convince you otherwise, and I for one will not attempt to do so. All anyone here can do for you is speak the truth. It’s up to God and you from there. If God can’t take some of what we say here and get it through to you, then you cannot be reached sir.
A few years ago, I supported Joyce Meyer with everything I had. I regarded her as a true, down to earth, sincere, and prosperous role model. I hung on every word that came out of her mouth as if they were the words of God straight to me. I never missed a show, and if I did, I watched her internet broadcasts. When she held her conferences in my area, I went to see her in person. I would do as she said to prove my commitment to God and take vacation days and drive 3 hours to Tulsa to see her preach at the ORU campus and drive 3 hours back home, justifying myself to God by reminding Him of these sacrifices.
Talking about sacrifice, not only did I give up a day’s pay to see her, but it was nothing for me to sacrifice $100 or more into the white buckets they’d pass around as offering plates, knowing all along that I’d have to sacrifice again when I didn’t have that money to pay a bill with! That, in addition to the hundreds of dollars I’d send her through the mail every month! In the typical Word of Faith fashion, I would then go to God in “prayer” and tell Him what He had to do (you [God] MUST keep your word; you MUST provide ‘pressed down, shaken-together’ etc; if I delight myself in you, you MUST give me the desire of my heart, ad nausea!).
Bill, that’s NOT praying! When a WoF preacher “prays” by saying “we bind you Satan, we come against all the powers of darkness, we rebuke all poverty and lack” etc, they are NOT praying to God! They are talking to the devil and speaking as if they were God Himself. It is NOT prayer. But I digress.
I absolutely LOVED Joyce Meyer! But God had other plans for me. I was DEEP into the Word of Faith . It was all I had ever known all my life. My grandmother latched onto the seed faith teachings of Oral Roberts back when it first came out. She taught my mother in the ways of the WoF, and my mother in turn taught us the same way!
I grew up thanking God for being numbered among those who knew the “truth!” Needless to say, I naturally equated the WoF to be the one and only WILL OF GOD, and anyone who believed otherwise was deceived and damned to hell! That being the case, I grew up feeling at one with all the T.V. ministers. I loved them ALL! As a young boy, I read Copeland’s “The Laws of Prosperity” and I was determined to make those laws work … after all they are LAWS and even God must abide by them!
But taking an honest look back over the past 30 years, I had to admit that they never worked for me. I grew up into my 40’s all along thinking there was something wrong with me. I would actually look at a mustard seed in the spice rack and wonder why my faith was so much smaller that that and didn’t work. Then I would get depressed because my faith was so much tinier than that mustard seed that God wouldn’t honor it.
I felt rejected by God. Sometimes that feeling of rejection made me angry at Him and there were times I actually told Him that he was a liar! That He WAS a respecter of persons; that He showed favoritism, and that He didn’t love me, even though I was doing everything I knew to do to keep with “His” teachings as I was taught them!
All that being said, let me say this: there was nothing wrong with my faith, so don’t even try to tell me “oh ye of little faith!” I’ve heard that all my life and now I know better. My faith was fine, but the problem was that my faith was in a LIE! The “god” I was mad at was NOT the God of the Bible! The “god” of the Word of Faith is a demon straight from HELL! I know that now, but therein lies the danger in Word of Faith teachings. The people in that CULT don’t even know who the TRUE God really is, and are damned as a result!
Back to Joyce Meyer. I supported her “ministry” with ALL of my substance, and I thought she was truly God speaking straight to me. But the more I gave to her, the poorer I got (the story of my life)! It wasn’t until I got down to where I was about to LOSE MY HOUSE the Lord began to act on the anguish inside me. I remember back in 2005, watching Joyce on T.V. One day she was talking about how she had brought her parents to St Louis and bought them a house close to her. She said “I was just in the mood to buy houses!” I almost screamed at her “why don’t you buy MINE for me?”
I pleaded with God to speak to her heart to send me a check and prevent the impending disaster facing me. Then I would know that God really heard me and loved me enough to finally do something after 30 years of giving!
But of course Joyce never did do that, and since I thought she was close to God and had his attentive ear, that it must be that God wanted me to suffer all the more! I couldn’t understand it. I had donated to her (God’s?) ministry, I helped her build her headquarters building and all the furnishings in it. According to her plea for funds back then, I was promised that I would “own” one square foot for each $100 I gave towards it (I gave $300, so I “owned” 3 square feet).
Had God forgotten that ????? Now I was in desperate need, had NOBODY to beg from like she did, and I felt God didn’t care. I told Him He was cruel and mean! But I still loved Him because even then, if I had given up on my ONLY hope, then I REALLY had no hope at all. Even then, I felt that my breakthrough might still come, so I’d pick myself up and apologize to God for my ill will towards Him.
Then one day, as I was watching Joyce on T.V. it seemed like literally “scales” fell from my eyes! Near the end of the show, as she was begging for donations, and her announcer came on talking about all her books that we could have for a “gift” of X-dollars, and then talked about “seeing Joyce in person” and hearing “Joyce preach the word as only she can do.” God Himself spoke to my spirit in that still small voice and told me “this isn’t about God, this is about JOYCE!” “Joyce” this, and “Joyce” that! And all the dollar signs on the T.V. screen seemed to “stick-out” like sore thumbs, and the whole thing smacked of one big long INFOMERCIAL about Joyce Meyer!!
That, my friend, was the beginning of my exodus from the Word of Faith! Each time I saw her show, it got even more disgusting to me … and I stopped giving to her. S L O W L Y, by putting a stop to the hemorrhage of money flowing out of my bank account to these people, I was able to recover somewhat, and I never did lose my house. But it was close. That, my friend was GOD showing me that He really did care about my financial well-being. He didn’t want my money!!!!! And not only did He NOT want my money, I was NOT cursed with a curse if I KEPT it !!!! That is freedom!
About the same time, I just happened to stumble upon this website, Pulpit-Pimps.org, and God has used this site TREMENDOUSLY to teach me the truth about where I had been all my life and that the Lord loved me enough to lead me out of it into the truth!
Unbeknownst to me, my mother, who had raised me in the WoF, had been led out of their heresy about a year before I had! She never told me though. I asked her why, and she said that I would have thought she was backslidden and lost in heresy forever. And she was right. Some other members of my extended family are not convinced, and there is a definite divide - but even that is mentioned in the Bible. That’s why I say that nothing any of us say will EVER convince you of the truth. You will just think that we are deceived and damned to hell. If God doesn’t get through to you, then YOU are not reachable. It’s as simple as that!
I know this is a LONG post, but before I stop there is some more I want to say about the Word of Faith.
The salvation of Jesus Christ is NOT about all the things that the Lord gives to His people! And people who seek the Lord for what He can give them are seeking Him for all the WRONG reasons! A person cannot receive the salvation of Christ unless first he realizes that he is a wretched sinner who deserves HELL, not all of the worldly stuff you WoF people clamor after! It’s not about getting all the STUFF. It’s about giving up their lives for HIM and becoming His slaves. Somehow you Word of Faith people have gotten that all backwards. You think salvation is about getting, and getting more It’s just STUFF, material worldly stuff, it’s CARNAL and ungodly! You think that all your STUFF is proof that you are blessed. There is one thing that is promised for sure to all true followers of Christ and that is PERSECUTION!
You Word of Faithers only think of earthly “blessings”. But God does not promise us the things of this world. Think about it What would it profit you to gain the whole world and lose your own SOUL? Copeland, Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyer, Joel Osteen, Creflo Dollar, Paula White, all of those hellish creatures on TBN - I can’t even name all of the pulpit pimps on TV (and maybe even your pastor too by the way) all of them have their reward. They have their “Best Life Now” But they can’t take any of it with them where they go
What about later on? The Bible speaks of the rich man and Lazarus. That kind of reminds me of the relationship between all these RICH pastors and their pimped followers. I believe they will suffer the same fate!
God does promise us SPIRITUAL prosperity, but you Word of Faith people only think on things of this world. When people like you give expecting your 100-fold return, you are giving to GET !!!! But the true Jesus tells us to give, expecting NOTHING in return. Do any of you honestly do that? Neither are we supposed to give out of NECESSITY or of COMPULSION … tell THAT to all of the pimp preachers on TV who incessantly compel us to give to their ministries ad nausea! It’s WRONG! If any of them really believed what they “preach” then all they really have to do is give and expect their 100-fold return and leave their audiences ALONE! But they won’t ever do that, because they really don’t believe what they preach either. Otherwise they would practice what they preach. YOU are profitable to them, and they fear that if they don’t ask YOU for it, YOU won’t give it to them. YOU are their cash cow, not GOD.
I am not attacking you, so don’t even go there. I am speaking from a life of experience. As I said, I was all bound up and hog-tied in all that Word of Faith crap for almost 30 YEARS!!! I gave, and I gave. I did all of the right things according to our famous PIMPS! It was nothing for me to fork over almost everything I had … tithes and offerings above and beyond what was expected, because I BELIEVED what the pimps said. I thought that I was doing what GOD wanted, and I suffered the consequences of that for far too long.
Like Joyce Meyer always says “give until it hurts!” — “give SACRIFICIALLY!” My intentions were good. And I had faith. But my faith was in a LIE! I was sincere and honest, but I was sincerely and honestly WRONG. I think that the Lord really knew that, and finally got through to me to just STOP IT! Like, HELL-OOOOO! If this thing still doesn’t work after nearly 30 years, guess what - IT DOESN’T WORK!!
I see myself all over all of you defenders of these people. I was just like ALL of you. And a couple of years ago, I would have been standing right there by your side. That’s why I say that ONLY THE LORD will ever get through to you. Nobody could have EVER gotten through to me so I know that.
I guess you can tell I am just a little bit angry about this lie that is continuously propagated by the deluge of televangelists spewing this prosperity vomit into living rooms across this country and bringing millions to hell with them. But maybe somehow the Lord can use my experience to help lead someone else out of this DELUSION you call faith. It is another gospel, and the “Jesus” you think you worship will someday be crystal clear to you. I just hope that you find out who it really is before it’s too late. REALLY! The Bible is the truth, and it contains the way to the real Jesus. This Word of Faith gospel is pure MADNESS !!!!!
THIS WAS AN AWESOME POST!!! This is true ministry. Thanks, BooBoo’s Dad for sharing. I pray that people will listen and go back to the Word. There is a great opening of turning away when people are led to be so disappointed in something they truly had faith in, only to find that it isn’t coming. They naturally blame God because they had faith and believed, not realizing that God is only bound by HIS Word.
Melvin, help me with something I’ve been pondering: “I’ve come that you might have life, and have it more abundantly”… Could that be speaking only of when we go to Heaven and return with Christ? I think that many people use this passage in believing that this passage is talking about living abundantly here. I believe it is at least speaking of spiritual abundance in Him. Can you elaborate? Thanks. And keep doing what you are doing!
This is my family. When I first came upon this site, these are the kinds of things we were going through but were ashamed to say because of what our fellow “saints” might think of us. Someone on this sight called me a “wounded warrior” and that was right. It was a combination of what this post was and “leaders” in the church with their own agendas snuffing out the gifts God put in us. The part about the mustard seed really hit me because my husband did the same thing, believing something was wrong with his faith. We were followers of Hagin, Copeland, Dollar, Seville, Duplantis, and had seen all of them in person at our church. My husband sang with Alvin Slaughter one time and we felt our children were “anointed” to be actually touched by Kenneth Hagin the year before he passed away. I am at work and trying to hold back the tears, but I printed this for my husband and hope we can re group and actually be what God wants us to be. We were given musical gifts for a reason, we need a place to present them. Thanks Melvin and Boo Boo’s Dad!
P.S. Melvin, I hope you remembered my book. If not, please tell me where I can buy it.
stvmmom1012,
You can order the book on Amazon, or it should be at any local christian bookstore near you. On Amazon the starting price is about 7 or 8 dollars. While you’re waiting for the book, if you want to know what the nine marks are and get a good detailed explanation of them, go to this link:
http://www.9marks.org/CC_Content_Page/0,,PTID314526|CHID616736|CIID,00.html
By the way, being musically inclined myself, I would love to know more about you and your family’s musical gifts (instrumental, vocal, etc.,.). That is, only if you don’t mind sharing…Be blessed dear sister…
Solus Christus,
R4C
I don’t mind. My husband and I both sing, he plays the drums, I play the violin, our children both sing, our son plays the drums and sax, our daughter plays the french horn. In 2001, we released a CD called “From Sin to Salvation.” In 2002, a book I had written in the mid 90s was published called “Crack in the Sky”. Thanks for asking.
Thank you, thank you, thank you! I too (and many of my friends) have been giving, giving, giving tithes, offerings AND to the televangelists and we’ve been complaining that we have not received 100 fold on anything!! We’ve moved away from these TV preachers and feel a relief. No more pressure to give to THEIR ministries to be blessed. I feel much better giving to the homeless and battered women’s shelters than I ever felt giving to the TV ministers!!!
Right on! Keep it real. Give to cutting edge
ministries (in addition to a reasonable support
for your local assembly of believers) and whatever you do…do not let the prosperity
gangsta’s steal your joy.
If I may…the verse: I come that they might have life
and have it more abundantly….the “it” refers to
life and that life is Jesus the Christ. He came that
we might have more of his life. He is our abundance! Christ did not come to die on a cross to insure that Joyce Meyers or Taffy Dollar or K. Copeland or J. Bynum can live in palatial luxury. He came to reconcile the world back to God.
Jesus did not have to die for us to be prosperous. He
could have done that long distance from heaven by
simply blessing our “gimme gimme” prayers. No need
to die for that. He came to destroy the works of the
devil and that includes false teachers preaching a
different gospel or a different Jesus. A false gospel
detracts worship away from him and onto an idol…
the almighty dollar.
If prosperity was Jesus’s main concern, then there is
no hell nor punishment for sin since financial prosperity can stand on its own without the need for Calvary and the shed blood of the Lamb of God.
BBD,
That is one of the best post that I have ever read on this blog. God Bless you and may He use your testimony to open the eyes of as many as He has appointed. Except for the 30 years, it was as if I was reading my own experience. Especially the “mad at God” syndrome. Thank God for His wondrous grace!
PREACH!
know that is a powerfull testamony!
I am jumpin and shoutin!!!! That is an awesome post! God is truly GOOD ALL the TIME! His GRACE is greater than ALL our sins!!!!
This was a very good post and so true. I have experienced the same thing and still working thru it.
Anonymous, do not be discouraged. It is a frightful thing to turn from something you’ve always known, because the God you thought you knew is suddenly a “stranger” to you. It’s like a death … it’s like “losing your religion” … because really it IS!! Sometimes you question whether you might be deceived again by turning your back on the only God you knew. You’re tormented in the beginning by the nagging thought: “I was wrong before … how do I know I’m not wrong NOW?”
I understand completely, as do a great majority of the others here. Let me encourage you by saying that you aren’t where you are by accident. The path from one place to another is taken one step at a time. It isn’t a straight path, nor is it smooth, but you aren’t walking it alone. One thing Joyce Meyer always said that I still embrace is “I’m not where I need to be, but thank God I’m not where I used to be!” Not everything they say is a lie. I just see it with different eyes now.
Read Jim Bakkers book “I was Wrong”
One more thing if I may … if you ever question what the real meaning is of something you see in the Bible that you have learned in error from a pimp, never underestimate the wisdom of GaryV … I have learned from MANY here, but unbeknownst to GaryV, I have sat here as a silent student of his from the beginning. He may come across to some as pompous or maybe even rude … usually the perception of those who are still under the strong delusion; however, I have seen him show great humility here too. When he is wrong, it is not beneath him to admit it and apologize. It may be presumptuous of me to speak for him, but if you question ANY false teaching you have received, don’t be afraid to ask … I’m sure he would be happy to share his insights on the matter!
To BooBoo’sDad:
I see that I have friend who kneels of GaryV’s seat of learning as well!
By the way, BooBoo’sDad, your generous comment read like a catharsis. It took courage to lay it out like you did, and we love you for it!
Your experience shows me that, in spite of the powerful influences of family, friends, and fleecers,you loved the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:10).
Sincerely,
Peter
AWESOME…thanks for sharing! When I thought I was all alone and others thought I was crazy. It is so refreshing to come across others who have experienced the same and being reformed as I.
With Prayers & Praises…..
That was humbling and powerful. I have so many questions and I have not seen the answers just yet. I understand the prosperity gospel stuff and see it for what it is. I would reiterate trayjay’s question and follow with one of my own. I have read your article on tithing. I understand the concept of giving and gifts. I am struggling now on how to respond to a church that asks for a tithe and to a wife who insists on doing it.
Since it is my belief that all churches use the OT to this end for their fund raising, I am led to the conclusion that no church is worthy of my offering. I can see the extreme examples of the pimps listed here on this site. But what of the local Roman Catholic church down the street? They ask for a tithe as well. Help me with this, please.
(MN: Not all churches do that. While I no longer attend, and they have some other difficulties, Calvary Chapel churches (Breath of Life in Largo Maryland specifically) do not make a habit of insisting on the tithing scheme. Also, the people I fellowship with - Hillcrest Baptist in Temple Hills Maryland, are quite explicit about the refusal to appeal to the idea of mandatory tithes. The phrase “tithes and offerings” floats around. But they are quite clear that tithing is not a requirement for the church. The people give because they want to see the body accomplish its goals and objectives. )
I belong to a fellowship that do not tithe as well. My pastor taught an extensive lesson on this. We refer to the 2Co 9:7 ,” Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.” You can share this scripture with your wife. Other than that if she doesn’t have the ear to hear, then you will have to continue to pray that God will open up her understanding. I too belonged to a church where if you didn’t tithe you were on your way to hell and would be cursed with a curse. I now realize, that no man can put me in hell. Keep praying, my husband did and God brought us out, together. He would feed me tidbits of different things at a time and because I wanted to have a sincere heart in following God, he opened up my understanding. As long as your wife has a heart that just wants to please God, there is still hope. God can open her eyes. Be encouraged.
We studiously avoid the use of the word “tithe” when talking about giving. Can I include a link here? My pastor did some great teaching on giving — here’s the link to the first of four sermons in the series:
http://www.sojournchurch.com/gospel-our-mission-and-giving
In one of the sermons (or perhaps in a couple of them), he talks about Jesus’ standards of living in the Kingdom — the Old Covenant way is about attaining to a set standard and that’s it. You must give 10%. You must not eat x, y, and z. You must wear this but not that. Et cetera. But where in the NT does Jesus ever say, “You know that law in the OT? Well, I’m here to lower the bar a little bit.” No, he says, “You have heard it said… But I say to you…” be more generous, be more concerned about sin, be more forgiving. We talk about a Kingdom standard of generosity. If you’re a student and make $5000 a year, giving 5% might be incredibly generous for you. If you’re an exec and make $500,000 a year, you might not even notice giving 15%. The standard Paul talks about in 2 Cor 8-9 isn’t about a number or a percentage, but one of planned, systematic, sacrificial, joyous giving.
Then how does your pastor guarantee money coming into the church, if not by compulsory giving, in the form of the tithe?
(MN: He doesn’t guarantee money coming into the church. That’s not his job. The members give as the Lord leads them to give. They know that if they don’t give then the pastor doesn’t get paid, the lights don’t stay on, and the various ministires don’t take place.
And givin this process guess what God gets to do in the church? He gets to move on the people’s hearts to give where He wants them to give. If the pastor got a hair up his butt and decided that the church needed to buy some property and build a bigger church for us to “grow into:, guess what won’t happen? That’s right. Unless God moved on the congregation’s hearts to give, there ain’t gonna be no money for monument building. )
That’s exactly what my wxpastor did with the church. It’s a debt free church because members and my family were drilled with this tithing thing. Huess what? The building is OWNED by the pastor and his wife, they double dip to pay for a home,cars, 401ks, trips, insurance. It’s not a rumor, i was in that circle. Made me sick and angry about it! It looks like they are getting by with a lot! It’s a spiritually abusive church. He started off as a humble shepherd. Trying to raise funds to build another one,which they don’t need.
MN, it is very interesting you brought forward the “Lord’s leading” people to give versus the Old Testament strong-arming to give.
I raised this issue on Independent Conservative concerning the Senate probe into the six targeted ministries for possible financial impropriety. Although, the feds are not initiating their actions from a biblical perspective, it can, nonetheless, bring forward the scriptural consequences for these shenanigans.
Should the investigation result in the overhaul of the federal tax code concerning churches, with the stripping of their tax-exemption status, this would likely result in a few things. One, contributors would no longer be able to get a tax write-off for the contribution; two, the church would then be subject to income and property taxes; and three, would cause the church its likely swift demise. (MN: I disagree. It would cause the church to settle for smaller, less magnificent buildings, pay the pastor less, and create smaller congregations. One church I worshipped with met at the YMCA on Sundays. Where does it say a church has to own its own building or most of the other stuff we simply accept as normal for the church? )
Again, the prosperity gospel is built predominantly on the promises of giving to get. The motivation to “give” would evaporate instantly with the revocation of this long-standing code, as it should. It would then be the most true test as to whether the church was called to exist in the first place. (MN: Yeah - and then you would only have the people who are giving to give. I guess it’s kind of like persecution. The only folks who are going to show up in the face of persecution, are the real Christians. Tell me again why this is a bad thing. )
@Seekerman: I seem to recall something in the form of “generously, not under compulsion” being in the New Testament regarding giving. Did I just make that up?
If giving at a certain level is compulsory, how is it to be free, generous, sacrificial, cheerful? Teaching on giving is essential — not begging, or demanding or bribing, but real teaching on what God’s word says about the generous, Gospel-transformed hearts and lives of believers.
Laura, 2 Corinthians 9:7 addresses giving by your heart’s purpose, not compulsively.
Dear Seekerman,
I have pastored a church for five years and all we do is free giving. We are able to pay all of our bills and we even have a new facility. No begging, no pimping, just following the leading of the Lord. We encourage people to seek God’s leading concerning stewardship. As a pastor, you have to follow the new testment principle of free giving. If you don’t you are violating scripture. People who are truly converted usually need no prompting to give of their time, talent or treasure. For pastors it boils down to an issue of faith. If God is really doing something he sends the resources. It is our plans and our agendas that God doesn’t pay for. God always supplies the resources for his programs. By the way his plans rarely inolve Bentley’s and Rolls Royces
(MN: Exactly. )
I like Ralph Hodge………
Ralph Hodge for President!!!!
All I can say is Yes and Amen. What is worst, is that our local churches have picked up this mentality. The pastors and wives, children also drive these expensive cars and 80% of the members are “cabbing it”, or public transportation. Their mortgages are being paid with the rent and utility money from their members. This must stop and thank God for those of us who dare to stand up and “Cry Aloud”.
That testimony came about because he finally read God’s Word for himself. Good to see that at least one person broke free from a wof church(building) before his/her life and mental health totally fell apart. An excellent book on this matter is “Christianity In Crisis” by Hanegraaff.
This is a powerful post.
The sad thing that the WOF BS is even in people’s language. I told someone to stay away from people who love drama and she thanked me for prophesizing to her. That was not prophesis, just common sense.
I hope you circulate this essay so other’s can see your efforts to save yourself.
Man that was powerful!!! May I copy and paste this to another blog(not taking any credit mind you)? I have been down this road too. I often say, you cannot look to the Joyce Meyers of the world to validate prosperity. If any of us had millions giving to us each week, we too could stand up and talk about how this prosperity gospel works. DUH!!!
It’s not under copyright … I am all for helping others to get the courage to walk away !!!
Hey Booboo Dad, Great post. Just wanted to pop in and say that it is under copyright. So you can possibly have inserted into your post “I give permission to anyone who wants to do so to re-print this” so you don’t get asked the same questions.
I’ve been saying this for years. If I sold books and tapes to people all around the country, I too can talk about this money flow. But for those of us who are not on tv pushing our products - money doesn’t just flow into our hands. Nor does money start flowing when we give to these ministries. I’ve been tithing and giving to televangelists for years and still have not reaped what I have sown.
I’ve been thinking about it for a long time, and decided that I am just going to throw my opinion out there on the “books & tapes” issue … it’s been something that’s been bothering me for quite awhile now.
Many of the T.V. preachers who say they don’t take a salary from the church, but instead are living off the royalties for the books and tapes that they sell … well, let me say, that I bought lots of Joyce’s books, tapes, and CDs, and many times I was disappointed to find out that the information in them are almost taken verbatim from what she had been preaching on T.V. They are nothing less than her “sermons” presented on a different medium.
Now would someone please tell me how this is any different than SELLING THE WORD OF GOD to the people?? (nevermind that the message is false). The Word of God should NOT be bought or sold, or am I wrong? If ANY of these “ministers” really did care even a little bit about the immortal souls of those people that they are trying to reach; if they were even only a little concerned about preventing people from dying in their sins and going to HELL, wouldn’t it be the right thing to do to get God’s word to these people at no cost to them? If they have received any information from God that was capable of saving souls, why then do they boast that they are making their living off of selling that information to others? Freely they have received it from the Lord, yet they CHARGE the public for it. It is absolutely unconscionable to me that this is done.
Like I said, we know that the message they are selling is a false one, but this is a matter of principle. Is there NO SHAME in these people? No, there is NOT!
If they truly loved the Lord, and if they truly loved those they “lead,” they would distribute that “soul-saving” information FREE! Melvin, I know you understand this concept … you have lead by example by offering books for free on this site, and although I know you would not applaud yourself for it, yet I applaud you. THAT is the way the pimps should be distributing their works … if only they weren’t P I M P S !!!
Hey there booboo (in my best Yogi bear imitation) I guess this means that you don’t want to buy the Melvinite Temple T-shirt huh? That’s too bad, I think the dictator would have loved to have one made for the dog. I got a special order one for Mel, GV and IC so that they can look like Captain Kirk, Spock and Scotty…
http://juliankandyministries.blogspot.com/2008/02/melvinite-t-shirts-for-sale.html
JOG, those are great T-Shirts
I get to be Spock though………..you know me, cool, calm, and dispassionate.
whateva’a cleva, just don’t give me the vulcan claw lol.
NOw I just need some photoshop equipment to show melly Mel with a lightsaber cuttin’ down some pulpit pimps like droidekas.
um,,,, you don’t think that is too geeky do you?
hey jules (jog),
i like your yogi bear imitation. after reading that i just had to say it myself, lol. ok, i know, i know- it don’t take much to make mav laugh. laughter is my drug of choice, sue me. (big grin)
Could’ve been worse Mav, with everyone shortening Boo Boo’s nickname to a smaller “BBD” I started singing in my head “Poison” by Bell, Biv Devoe.
“Can get it out of my head…”
Brother BBD,
To make sure I hear where you’re coming from, you’re not necessarily against ALL FORMS of copy-righted material or people making money off of the materials they produce, are you?)
I don’t believe that life-saving (spiritual) information, or any information that has been “freely given” by our Lord should then be marketed to the public for personal gain. If Jesus didn’t charge his listeners for the Word of God, or his insights into the Word of God, then if one truly wishes to follow His example, one should likewise not place a price on it … it is my opinion. I have been dwelling on it for a long time. I am not going to even try to attempt to make anyone else see it “my way” if there be any who disagree. It is my opinion and it is reasonable to me … it isn’t an essential, and I do not wish to strike up a debate on it if that is your intention.
Hey Brother BBD,
Thanks for clarifying. Again, just wanted to be sure of where you’re coming from. Awesome testimony by the way..
I like you G². But I wasn’t altogether sure why you wanted me to clarify where I was coming from. (I thought it was evident). I have my reasons for believing the way I do … I think alot of comes from what I have seen and experienced with the pimps, but I don’t know where you stand on the issue, and I honestly haven’t had to publicly defend my position on the “buying/selling the Word” before - thus the reason for not wishing to debate with you if you disagree with me. It’s not so much pacifism as much as it is a matter of me having a tendency to show unhealthy emotions in the event I fail to get my point across … so I choose to just let things go and keep my peace if that is possible.
I must say I can relate to N’Catina in one of her posts below where she says she hasn’t been posting here because she says she was “unseasoned … in the sense of not wanting to contribute to the blog on straight impulse or emotionalism to specific posts, but to gather a sufficient-enough background on what is discussed to contribute intellegently.”
I’ve been reading some of your posts here for years G², and I respect you much. Thanks for understanding.
Just my two cents on this…..
While I understand your sentiments BBD and appreciate and somewhat agree with your thoughts, I must say that I have never personally had a problem with people selling their books, tapes, etc…. per se although I have many times thought that it would be nice if copies of sermons and services were freely dsitributed (although it does cost to do this). Some ministries do now accomplish this by streaming services on their website.
Although I think that much, dare I say most, of the televangelism that we see on TV now is designed to make money for the ministries, no one is forcing the public to buy these products. And if they choose to do so, they are usually getting “what they paid for” in that book, cd, dvd, etc…be it false doctrine or not.
However, what I think is much, much worse is the enticing of people to give offerings to these people with the promise that they will be materially blessed 100 fold, etc…. I find that to be tantamount to stealing and not buying and selling because what they are sellilng is a lie.
If someone has a book, or a sermon, or a gospel album do you think you are supposed to get it for free? I mean if I want a Genuine Leather Bible does the company send it to me just because I believe in Eloheem? Emphatically No! Someone took time to put this together and the person who preached and or wrote what you bought should get paid for it. That is business. There is nothing wrong with having a business related to that of serving and worshipping the Eloheem.
Hello, “centerofworship” also known as “REV. A. L. MASON”:
We, here at Pulpit Pimps, are anxiously awaiting your response to ready4change’s comment (2008-02-03) in Melvin’s posting “I Think I Love the Lord.”
As a white boy from Pittsburgh, perhaps you can enlighten me on a few things - since, according to your Barak African Ministry website - your “mood” is “enlightened” with a “smiley face”.
Question #1: Are you alluding to Barak Obama, what has he done?, or to Ehud Barak, the most decorated soldier in the history of the Israel Defense Forces?
Question #2: Is the “Eloheem” to whom you are referring, the rapper, aka “Mr. Perfect,” or is this just a hip spelling of Elohim?
Question #3: Perhaps I missed it: is there any mention of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, on your site?
From the tone of your responses as researched on the Munificent Despot’s website, REV. A. L. MASON/aka centerofworship, you appear to be an angry man. (Please see James 1:19-21 and understand that James is speaking specifically to Christians, so you may be exempt.)
It is my prayer that you come to believe Jesus’ statement, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM” (John 8:58). Renounce and throw in the dumpster, your confused Egyptology/Hebrew/Black Muslim Nationalism and hope that the Father has chosen you as one of the elect!
By the way, if you would like a Bible - and based on the paucity of your references to Scripture in your comments - you NEED one. Click here: http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/
Unlike your site, ahem reverend, you will not see any Donate Buttons at Gateway or at Pulpit-Pimps.
We hope to hear some arguments from you soon - from Scripture of course!
Then maybe you think Paul should have been paid for all the work he put into writing his epistles? You think there is nothing wrong with making a business out of preaching and teaching the word of God, and you are entitled to that opinion. On the other hand, I believe that it is wrong, and I have already stated some of my reasons why. I don’t believe that my Lord caused all those dollar signs to pop out off the screen while I was watching Joyce’s show for nothing … I have witnessed the buying and selling of her books, tapes, and CDs at her “tape table” she had set up in the foyer where she “preached.” She is selling to people what Jesus intended to be free. She is in effect making the “house of God into a place of merchandise” and if Jesus had been there, He would have turned the tables over and scattered their money on the floor!
I concede that in our modern capitalist society, things “cost money” and “ya don’t get somethin’ for nothin!” But that is because we as a body of believers have assimilated ourselves with the buying and selling society in which we live. This is NOT the way the early christians dealt with each other. You say that:
Still pimpin’, eh Antoine?? Are you wearing your tin foil yarmulke??
I once was lost, but now I’m found, was blind but now I see! That’s been my cry since I left my WOF church in 10/07…Oh the words of that old negro hymn…free at last, free at last THANK GOD ALMIGHTY I’M FREE AT LAST! Awesome testimony Booboo’s Daddy!
As I sit here with tear filled eyes for I through this site have been set free, when I think of the damage that has occurred spiritully to me I get angry! Not to mention all of the money that I have placed in the hands of the pimps and their families to “show off to the world”. Thank you for this post and this site it has caused thick scales over my eyes to fall completely off! Thank you Father for your grace and mercy. Melvin please don’t let anyone tell you that this site isn’t helping because I have been helped and am now helping others by telling them to go here and find truth.
Hey Mel,
May I have your permission to post this @ In Submission to Sovereignty?
(MN: I don’t think Boo Boo’s Dad will object. BBD? )
Like I said to Aljonathan above, it’s not under copyright !!! How could I possibly say “no” … Let the world know the truth in any way it can be made known !!!
to God be the glory for sharing your testimony brother. i’m so glad for you that He brought you out, bbd. i have many friends who LOVE joyce meyers and to hear them talk about her makes me want to scream, but i know they don’t have ears to hear the truth, so i just pray that God will open their blinded eyes. i agree with you- if God doesn’t do it, it can’t be done. i might as well be speaking into the air….
Ahhh the word, it’s sharp and it cut him Good.
praise his holy name.
Hey Sharon,
You are right about the disparity between many of the prosperity pastors and the people. It is ethically wrong to live so vastly above the financial standards of thepeople youserve. Some who do this, like Fred Price in his Rolls and other expensive cars in South Central, LA claim they do this to insire the people to live greater lives. They forgot that greater in the Kingdom of GOD is not the same as in the Kingdom of Thingdom. Jesus said the greatest will be the least. Greatness will be defined by a heart of service. Perhaps Price could sell his $80,000 cars and buy cars for his most needy congregants. Ministerial Ethics is a thought of a bygone era for these hustlers and propponents of vice and greed.
saint james,
Amen to that one!!!!
Hi BBD. A mesmerizing testimony filled with sanctifying truth!
After I got out from under such teachings (although I was not as committed to it as you were), I came to realize what Satan’s plan was. I saw it unfold in what you said, “I told Him He was cruel and mean!”
I finally learned why the direct quotes of Satan accusing man are what we find in Job: “But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!” He made the same charge against Job again in chapter two. Our second witness.
This is his true plan - to get people to curse God for the misfortunes they believe He either caused or failed to avert. This is what these pimps are being used by the same devil to do to the masses they mislead. Satan wants us to be so embittered against God, that we will turn from Him in anger for what we think He did to us. He wants us to charge Him with wrong - the very One Who is the Savior of man. Thank God, you did not stay with that accusation against Him of being mean and cruel.
Job actually has a lot more faith than modern WOFers give him credit for. “In all this, Job did not sin or charge God with wrong.” Job was even constantly worried that his children had cursed God in their hearts. How much that man knew about people! No wonder it’s the oldest book of the Bible.
Job also said, The Lord giveth (is giving) and the Lord taketh (is taking) away. He KNEW God much better than many New Testament believers do today. He knew that this is a corrupt world with no temporal guarantees from above. No matter how hard we believe it or claim it or demand it, earthly wealth and health is not evenly distributed, even among His people. His people often suffer the loss of health and wealth by persecution. Look and Kenya and Sudan today, for example, or the many unknown Christian martyrs over the millennia starting with Jesus.
This modern misled bunch want to believe the delusion that God is here to make our Christian life a mini-Paradise on earth, filled with enduring health and wealth. They even prooftext this false doctrine to nail it firmly to their greedy hearts (I was one!). They will eventually curse God just as Satan desires, for they will never recognize that the Jesus they are “believing” is a different one than the One of the Bible. This other one cannot save them, nor will he give them access to the Living and True God. Woe to them and their teachers! Please, God, grant them repentance unto the acknowledging of the truth that they may recover themselves from the snare of the devil, just as you did with BBD, many others and me.
BooBoo’s Dad….
As many have said, this post is such a blessing and so true!! I was involved in many of these same churches and ‘practices’ as well. I couldn’t even begin to tell you all of the ridiculous doctrine I’ve heard preached over the past 20+ years.
What’s really sad to me about this whole “proserity gospel ” is that the scriptures do indeed have a lot to say about how we should deal with our lives in the material arena. It speaks of being prepared, saving our money, taking advantage of opportunities presented to us, developing/investing our talents, planning for the costs of various undertakings etc. It also speaks of seekng God for direction in all of our actions and decisions. But, the problem is, all of the above things require work, discipline, and faith in god’s word and direction.
What the properity gospel promotes is the idea that money and financial increas is just going to fall out of the sky!! It will require no responsibility, discipline, education (not necessarily formal) , sacrifice, or stewardship.
And that tickles the ears of our flesh and encourages our carnality because it’s all about us and what we want. No encouragement is ever given to seek the heart of God and to make those things that are important to Him important to us.
But isn’t that what the scriptures said would come?
Help, God…help
Stan, this is so true … Satan’s plan to get God’s people to curse him to his face … this is why learning the truth is so absolutely necessary, along with discernment, which the Word of Faith “preachers” and their followers do not have, otherwise this deceptive lie would be crystal clear … it was his plan back in Job’s day as it is his plan today, because regretfully all too often it works.
You know, I was so convinced of Copeland’s laws of prosperity, and what he said about our heavenly bank account, and the 100-fold return on all deposits made into it, that I actually kept a heavenly “checkbook” to keep track of how much I had in my account in heaven! According to his interpretation of “storing not up wealth on this earth,” each time we gave, we were making a deposit … add the 100-fold “interest”, and from that amount we could make our withdrawals … of course the logical conclusion for me was to keep a ledger of what I gave, and multiply it by 100, and that was the amount that “God owed me” !!! I did that for a year or so, but can you imagine the audacity it takes to do such a thing? Oh, God is merciful, patient, and kind … even while I attempted to make “withdrawals” from my heavenly account by making demands of what I was errantly taught was “mine.” Remembering back to that fills me with extreme gratitude that God DIDN’T pay me what I had due … the wages of sin is DEATH!! I am deeply sorrowful of my past, and words cannot express the gratitude I have towards God for bringing me out of that and into the truth … God owes us NOTHING except for what He already gave us with His Son, and if I never have anything else, that is enough! But many remain yet in bondage to that lie, and Copeland will have their blood on his hands … he will have alot to answer for one day, as he thumbs his nose at the Senate investigations now. I watched the video on IC’s site where Copeland told them he gave them a “several page lesson on NO!” …
You can watch it here if you haven’t seen it:
http://www.independentconservative.com/2008/01/30/huckabee_and_copelands/#comments
When our Lord calls him to account for the very things the U.S. Senate is calling him to account for, I certainly wouldn’t relish being him if his answer is the same!
I ask the Lord to have mercy on those who shall be His, but like I told FDM on another posting here, if anyone doubts the truth of what is proclaimed here, let them not say they were not warned!! There will be nothing left to be said for them on that day if they will not even consider for a moment that they might be wrong.
Hello, BooBoo’sDad:
Holy, smoke!
And I mean smoke:
Gen 19:27-29.
Are you startin’ to preach?
Give me a ringy-dingy (Laugh-In, anyone, circa 1968) at dickkopf@hotmail.com when you simmer down. Whew!
Hey BBD, have you ever noticed that the WoF doctrine of your “Heavenly Bank Account” is directly analogous to Rome’s selling of indulgences, the spark that lit the Protestant Reformation??
I often wonder when a new Luther will arise to beat back the modern Tetzels. Because we don’t need Revival,we need a return to the Reformation.
Yes GV, I have noticed that. We have come full circle and find ourselves once again at a time when we need another Luther. Martin Luther, while he was yet suffering under the scourge of false teaching, was being prepared until the Lord’s time for events to take place. If the Lord so wills for another to arise, it will happen in the Lord’s time. All events are taking place according to the Lord’s will so that the prophecies of old are fulfilled. You know, I had the rare opportunity to visit Lutherstadt-Wittenberg when I lived in Germany and saw the Schloßkirche (Castle church), where he nailed his 95 theses to the door. I also visited the memorial in Prague where Jan Hus was burned at the stake for speaking against indulgences and defying Rome almost a century before Luther’s time … The Lord has graciously allowed me to see firsthand these historical places where His Will was done. I am blessed to be able to read and comprehend Martin Luther’s translation of the Bible in German, and am able to compare and contrast that with my English versions … I am blessed, not with earthly po