If you have already posted this information let me know and I’ll read it. So far, I have not found anything.

(MN: The defining moment was the conclusion of our three month discussion on his teaching that Jesus had suffered in hell to pay for our sins. His beginning to teach the in-hell-suffering was the first time I thought that leaving was going to be an option I’d have to look at.

By the way, I really don’t mind talking about it again. )

You said ” ubiquitous ” I had to go to my dictionary for that one brother LOL. My context clues didn’t even help.

Whew, you nailed that one!

And, may I thank you on behalf of our dear Jenkinsite, Rose Anderson-Wise, for a job well done.

I hope she cuts and pastes your nice answer, studies up a tad, and returns to Glenarden to lead a ladies’ bible class on 1 John 2.

Love,
Peter

1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

OK…..the first rule of hermeneutics is to NEVER pull a verse out of its context and seek to understand it isolated from the surrounding text.

In this case, in isolation, it SEEMS the Bible is saying that we don’t need men to teach us anything. However,that would contradict the Bible in hundreds of other places. For example, the same Holy Spirit Who seems to be telling us that we don’t need men to teach us is the Holy Spirit Who gives the gift of teaching to MEN in the church.

Rom 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, [let us prophesy] according to the proportion of faith;
Rom 12:7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;

1Cr 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Not only did God set men into the church to teach, He elevated them to a status just below apostle and prophet,and the Holy Spirit is the One Who specifically empowers these men God calls to teach. Why would He call and empower men to teach in the church if He didn’t want or need men called and empowered to teach in the church??

We also see throughout the NT that teaching in the church by men gifted to do so is ubiquitous and commended by God.In just the NT from Acts to Jude I found over 30 references that command men in the church to teach sound doctrine to others in the church, and that’s just from a cursory look. I would find many more if I put in the time,and many MANY more if I went through the OTas well, but 30 in the NT should suffice. Here are some of the more prominent ones:

Gal 6:6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.

Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

1Ti 4:11 These things command and teach.

2Ti 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all [men], apt to teach

Hbr 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God;

So, we must ask ourselves a foundational question……is the Holy Spirit a schizophrenic?? Is the Holy Spirit on one hand telling us that we don’t NEED men to teach us, while simultaneously setting the Office of teacher in the church, empowering men with the GIFT of teaching in the church,and commanding us to TEACH sound doctrine in the church?? Of course not.

The Holy Spirit is NOT saying in 1 John that we don’t need men to teach us. Let’s look at the verse in question with the surrounding verses in context so we can see that He does not contradict Himself.

1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

(GV) What is the SUBJECT that John is addressing here?? False teachers. Deceivers.Keep this in mind.

1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

(GV) WHO went out from us?? Again, the subject hasn’t changed. False teachers.

1Jo 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
1Jo 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 1Jo 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].
1Jo 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
1Jo 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, [even] eternal life.

(GV) All this above is STILL talking about false teachers, and telling the church that the UNCTION they have from the Holy Spirit teaches them all things they need to discern WHO are the FALSE TEACHERS among them. Remember, the SUBJECT here is false teachers, NOT whether or not men should teach at all.

1Jo 2:26 These [things] have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

(GV) Again, the Holy Spirit makes clear what the SUBJECT is here…….not whether men SHOULD teach, but whether the unction He has given us will direct us to KNOW false teaching when we hear it. That question is answered below definitively.

1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you:

(GV) We don’t need any man to teach us WHAT??? Remember the SUBJECT.We don’t need any man to teach us whether something is FALSE TEACHING. That is what the Unction/Anointing that the Holy Spirit imparted to us DOES……it bears witness to the Truthfulness of what is being taught.

but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

(GV) That anointing teaches us all things pertaining to Truth. One of the ways it DOES that is by bearing witness with our spirit whether what we are hear being taught is false or true. Remember, the SUBJECT that John is addressing is FALSE TEACHERS and the ability of the Unction/Anointing within us to discern whether what is being taught is false or true. The subject was NEVER whether men should teach us AT ALL, but whether the Holy Spirit empowers us to know whether what men teach us is Truth.

ANOTHER way the Holy Spirit teaches us is through the office of teacher, who He Himself set in the church, who He Himself empowers with the gift of teaching, and who He Himself commands to fulfill that office in the Scriptures I cited (and dozens more). The office of teacher has not passed away,and the duty of teachers to teach sound doctrine in the church still stands today.

Context,context, context. I hope this helps a bit.

That isn’t true exactly. Read 1 and 2nd Timothy and Titus. Paul charges both Timothy and Titus to “TEACH” what is in according with sound doctrine. Also if you go to Ephesians and 1 Corinthians 12 we see people with the gift of teaching. To sum it up, I think it is in James when man are charged to not be so eager to be a teacher, because of a harsher judgement. So they were teaching someone and I believe that these someones are Christians.

IC, just because you have the Holy Spirit doesn’t mean that you can teach yourself completely. It has nothing to do with possessing a bible or not. I think you are crushing your own strawman again bro. If this is the case lets close all churches and remove the office of Elder (whose primary role is to teach differing from that of a deacon) and sing songs and feed the poor.

So no one is limiting the role of the Holy Spirit; however, teaching God’s word is the normal function of the church. As a matter of fact isn’t this word one of the imperatives in Matthew 28?

If I may, however, discourage assuming that I necessarily aspouse a particular view if I raise a question on this board. I was, quite the contrary, sending out an invitation for dialogue.

In response, to your comments, then:
I am not insistent on organization, rather I agree with your view of the church as an organism rather than an organization. Nonetheless, as you chose to quote a man, a teacher, you make my point for me. My point, or my question, is that after you reject the concept of denominationalism, where can you go for corporate worship? Is there no place for corporate worship?

I quite agree with you on the point of the power of your own personal relationship with God. That was not my point. Your comments were in a different direction than I was intending with my comments, and frankly a much deeping level than I was fishing.

In any case, I look forward to your response,

Yours in Christ,
Merlin

If I may…

It seems that your insistance on “organization” is a presupposition (an unbiblical one I might add) that is causing the confusion. The church of Jesus Christ was never an organization that had any of the hierarchy that we see expressed in your former denomination. Read the books of Acts and the epistles. You won’t find it. Though the Church of Jesus Christ is ORGANIZED it is more of an ORGANISM (I Corinthians 12:12-27) than an organization.

Anyway, I would answer your first question by saying that it is important for any believer to be well versed in scripture through private study. That foundational knowledge, along with prayer, is a great safeguard against false doctrine. It will serve as a “lamp unto your feet” to keep you from stumbling. It will provide you with a standard by which to judge who and who not to listen to or receive instruction from.

Charles Spurgeon said :

“Discernment is not a matter of simply telling the difference between what is right and wrong; rather, it is the difference between right and almost right.”

Your second question is similar to the first. So here’s my answer. The Holy Spirit should be your first and primary teacher. Sometimes we want to avoid the responsiblity of studying simply by finding a good teacher. This is a perilous mistake that many so-called Christians make. We are all responsible to follow Paul’s instruction to Timothy. (II Timothy 2:15)

As far as the people who stay in what appear to be apostate organizations or churches, I would agree that you can’t condemn them. It may be that they are condemned already. It may be that God has directed them to stay and fight. However, I believe that it is more likely that they would stay and fight for the denomination, or organization, and its traditions, rather than for the word of God. Besides, their presents gives tacit approval to the apostasy in the minds of on lookers. I don’t agree with the “stay and pray” mentality. I’m more for the “leave and grieve” mindset.

Again, I must chide you a bit (though in love) about your misunderstanding of the use of finance as it relates to Christ’ Church. Who cares if the organization survives? This is about spreading the gospel and at times helping the poor. There isn’t an example in the bible where it took an organization to get the job done. It’s not a fact, and has been proven otherwise, that “an organization can reach more souls than the sum of the individual”. Are you kidding me? Most of the major impact that the gospel has had in the world has been when individuals were stirred by the conviction of the Holy Spirit to address the problem of the lost. There’s a reason why we can throw out the names of powerful individuals who’ve made history defending Christ and His Church and evangelizing the lost. And it’s not because they all had some great organization backing their efforts. Most got by on very little. But God working in an individual is more than a billion dollars working in a denomination.

I must make what may be considered a judgment of your heart. If that is the case and I am completely off, let me say that I am sorry, right now. But it seems that you don’t understand how powerful your personal relationship with Christ is (I am assuming that you have one), outside of the organizational mindset. Don’t get me wrong, God did not call us to be “lone rangers” but He did call us to a committment that may cause us to be alone at times. But we should not fret over it. Again, I believe it was Charles Spurgeon who said “God and one man is a majority”. The truth that you seek can, in all honesty, be found alone in your room, on your knees before God, with a bible open. That personal time with God is so valuable I can’t put it into words. As you draw closer to Him intimately, your eyes will be opened and your mind conditioned to know who and what church to associate yourself with. This will better prepare you to glean the best that you can from fellowship.

Oh, and by the way, you can always come to this site. I’ve found more fellowship and truth here than in any church in which I’ve ever been.

Well,because God not only calls the Elect, He has designated the MEANS by which they will be called. And that is through the Word given through men. Therefore, we have the privilege of being a vessel God uses to call His Elect.

Our failure to stand up and preach Truth won’t stop any of the Elect from coming, but God allows us the opportunity to be fellow laborers with Him in the harvest, and has promised us rewards for doing so.

If God’s going to use SOMEONE’S voice to reach His Elect, I certainly want my voice among those involved in bringing His Plan to pass.

If you accept for a moment that noone begins the study of a subject as an expert, then one must learn from a source. While the Bible is The Source, certainly a book as complex and full requires some explanation if only to enhance the learning experience. Can the same truth be reached from all readers reading the One Book on their own? Clearly not. Each of us tends to focus on a different passage or aspect of a reading. We do this because the whole is often difficult to comprehend without first breaking down the parts for analysis.

So, who shall we allow to teach us? As an Ex-Episcopalian, I cannot trust the words of that leadership. Nonetheless, this does not imply that all priests, deacons and bishops of the Anglican communion are bad or misguided (misguiding?) teachers of scripture. Quite the contrary, if all Right and Holy men of God remaining within the Episcopal church were to leave it, who would battle on within that groups of Christians for the true word? While I felt compelled to leave my parrish and the church as a whole, I cannot condemn those who stay behind. For who shall fight on for what is Right if not them?

So, we come to the money issue. To my rather limited knowledge of the inner workings of all church organizations, all churches require money to operate. If we accept that tything is an Old Testament concept that should not be applied to the New Testament Church, and offerings are specific events that are not designed to raise funds for the churches, how then does the organization survive? Do you suggest that we do not give any financial offerings to a church? While the extremes that define your pimps may seem clear to you, as with most things, there is a scale of grey that represents the interest in finances of any church organization. When does a church cross the line as being too aggressive? Examples do not help here. Scripture is more useful. If the Church that Paul was to establish has no means to support itself, where do we turn to learn?

I understand completely that this question is a bit rhetorical, but I’d still enjoy your response as I am new to your site. I completely agree that visions are frightening to discover, particularly those of men in power. But I leave you again with our Christian mission of evangelism: if you believe that an organization can reach more souls than the sum of the individual, are you wrong to contribute to such an organization? Is there no Truth to be found within the context of any church organization or denomination?

Yours in Christ,
Merlin

(MN: That awful thought has come up on occasion. But again, the environment is too filled with the dynamics of a relationship, getting knocked around by life in general, and a host of other things.

The best I can do is take the stand that she has made a confession of faith and trust God to work His absolute will in her life. Of course, she is also quite Arminian in her views. )

(MN: No. It won’t stop the unsaved from looking at it. And it also won’t keep the unsaved from responding to a move of God on their hearts. Nothing I say here can prevent God from drawing the unsaved and saving those He has decreed will be saved.

And yes, the same thing could be said about the sheeple stuck under a pimp. )

(MN: She tithes and gives a love offering to Jenkins. I have made it clear that John doesn’t really care anything about her and backed it up with such things as a recount of what he said. I’ve pointed out that the man was preaching Jesus suffering in hell for our sins. Her reaction is just that I am not being very nice and she enjoys her relationships at the church. Besides, she says, John has done so much for us that I should feel bad about saying such un-nice things about him. Repeating the assertions to her isn’t really going to do anything. She was raised a tither from way back. She was trained to accept the pastor as the authority. And our…uh…issues don’t make it any easier for her to turn away from the practice. )

Also, Jenkins clearly stated that if you don’t agree with the vision of your pastor, you should leave and find one that you can FOLLOW! Yes, FOLLOW. You’re not leading a church body, are you, Melvin? Chances are, if you’re a member of a church, you’re FOLLOWING the LEAD of a Pastor. (MN: Yes. As he follows Christ. Not as he follows his own vision. There is a huge difference between the two.) And if he’s a GOOD pastor, he’s encouraging you to study the WORD on your own time IN ADDITION to receiving the Word on Sundays/Bible study. He, too, should be directing you to the scripture that reveals how people would RECEIVE teaching from someone, but THEN they’d go and check the scripture themSELVES to make sure that what that “teacher” said was, in fact, true. (MN: But it’s generally obvious that most of you who defend John and his compatriots don’t study for yourselves. At best, you study laying across the meanings John has pronounced across the words you read. Otherwise you would not still accept the premise of tithing, the idea of the Mand of Gawd speaking truth into your life, or a host of other silly notions not supported by a good reading of Scripture. ) So you see, it’s not about “Hey, don’t read the Bible and try to gain understanding…let me teach you what I want to teach you ’sheeple’.” It’s more like “HEY, you can’t rely on what you feel is right and wrong and just go off of that.” We can’t TEACH ourselves. GOD teaches us. Man is only a vessel. And if you can’t trust that God is using a certain pastor, or if you just can’t ‘get with’ the program within a certain church, you need to leave because you’re going to have problems, or BE the problem.” (MN: Actually, it’s more like what he says is right. If he says it means such and such, then it must mean such and such - - because God called him to speak that truth into your life. If he is God’s mouthpiece and he says you get by giving, then you have to accept that as true. And no amount of reading on your own is going to be permitted to contradict that. After all, if you disagree with your mand of gawd and the “truth” he speaks, then you need to get on up out of there. Surely you can see the inevitability of this. I mean think about it. What if you disagree because he’s wrong? Are you supposed to leave or is he supposed to listen to you?. )

PS - I go to Zion Church, led by Keith A. Battle. Had it NOT been for the FINANCIAL GENEROUSITY and MENTORSHIP and SUPPORT of JENKINS and his church…we wouldn’t be here. And if you have been to our church, you’d know God has been able to do GREAT unique things through Zion, Keith, and everyone involved. Could it be that Jenkins MAY have just been so obedient to the scriptural context of “Don’t let your right hand know what your left hand is doing”? If so, it’s no wonder why so many people have NO clue of how much Jenkins and FBCG has done FOR the community. (MN: Again, doing nice things in no way cancels out bad doctrine and programs that have nothing to do with Christ. )(Who’d rather have LOW-INCOME housing RIGHT ACROSS THE STREET from a elementary/middle school/community center in Kettering than a CHURCH??? (MN: But should a church even be involved in Section 8 housing? What next - a pawn shop and cash checking facility? ) That’s Section 8! If you’re going to build section 8 housing, then it takes MORE strategy and politics FAR beyond Jenkin’s pen signature and FBGC capital than just simply plopping it right in the middle of the suburbs. Maybe Shabach Academy should be shut down too, and instead build low-income housing, right?) So please, don’t call Jenkins a pimp when, in fact, NOBODY is being pimped. (MN:But again, you seem My dear, you have been pimped. Again you have mistaken being seen as doing nice things [with other people’s money as a mitigation for preaching bad doctrine and coercing the sheeple to give you money so you can do the things that make you look good. )

We don’t complain about how much Pastors GIVE and DONATE out of their pockets, or how much time, effort, stress, pressure, etc that they have to go through just to LEAD a church of 9000+ members (like FBCG). We’re too materialistic and worried about what THEY have, what cars they drive, how big THEIR house(s) are, where THEIR pictures show up, etc. Why don’t we post websites and blogs about how many churches Jenkins helped plant with his financially support. (MN: Because if they have him as a covering, it’s likely they have the same twisted arrangements he does. For instance, the churches with women as pastors are a major violation of what he stood for BEFORE he started moving out into Big Dogdom. ) I know, lets talk about how many families Jenkins prevented from getting evicted and how many of their lights HE helped turn back on! Let’s send out emails talking about how many homes WERE built with funds from YOUR tithes and offerings (you ARE tithing, right Melvin? (MN: No. I don’t. )Otherwise, YOU’RE the one not helping build “low-income” housing…not Jenkins) (MN: The church isn’t here to build low income housing. And Jenkins isn’t building it. He’s using the money from the sheeple to build it. It doesn’t cost him a cent. ). Instead of wondering WHY people who GIVE, practice PHILANTHROPY, and manage their money so well RECEIVE so much back in return, let’s throw slander and drag their name in the mud because GOD blessed them and their family with a big house and a separate garage. Or, we could put pictures of their house on the internet with Photoshopped satirical images of them and their family on the web and not only hurt THEIR image…but the CHRISTIAN faith as a whole! That’d be GREAT. Now any unsaved seeker can see THIS site and say to themselves “See that, Christianity is nothing but a scam! Christ isn’t valid, its all a joke. Look, even people who claim to be Christian are leaving their own churches over money! That’s not gonna be ME!” (MN: Let me try again: The site is not here for the unsaved. It’s here for the poor sheeple like you, to attempt to warn you away from the wolves and pimps. )

There ARE some pimping pastors, twisted-preaching ministers, etc… but you’d better be careful who you THINK you’re calling out and do some REAL beneath the surface research, because in this case, you’re wrong. (MN: Again, I only use the stuff they post and preach. What have I said that is wrong? )

All due respect and brotherly love,
MySelf

He also spent 3 years at Ephesus incessantly warning about false teachers. That would have drove you NUTS!! Why didn’t he just focus on Jesus?? (Oh wait………he WAS).

Good grief, get a Bible.