Merry Christmas folks. A very astute and helpful reader heard my pitiful cry for help and provided me with exactly what I was wishing for , a way to get John K. Jenkins’ abysmal audio, in which he explains to the sheeple that they are not able to teach themselves, out here on the web. And it turns out that it was much easier than I had at first thought it would be.
Here’s the audio section I transcribed. I was even able to provide some printed commentary along the way.
And those of you who noticed the last time - you’re right. His grammar alone should disqualify him.
The old nobody can know more than me in here and I’ll tell you what Gawd said scam. Well he said why he does it. It’s about HIS VISION. If it was about following Christ he’d actually have to abide by scripture.
Help me out with this word “vision” if you will. Should a sheepherder have any other vision outside of what his boss provides for him? If the owner of the sheep tells the sheep herder to take my sheep and lead them to me, should not that be the only vision the sheep herder has? Along the way we know that they have to be fed (the word of God in the Spiritual sense), but I’ve never seen anywhere in the bible about anybody having THEIR OWN VISION, It was the vision that was sent from God. Now, I could be wrong, so somebody help me here. Oh yeah, the sheep herder is a sarcastic reference as we all know to “shepherd” in which the word derives.
Righter wishes a Merry Christmas to Mr. Melvin Jones and the Pulpit Pimps bloggers.
Well said Righter and I wish all the same.
Merry Christmas to all……..
Hello, “Righter”:
You’re tripping me out with your use of the 3PS (third person singular).
Mele Kalikimaka a me Hau’oli Makahiki Hou back to you!
May you continue to be a Berean!
(MN: Melvin is tripped out as well. )
Thank you very much.
But why trip?
I have the poetic license to “right” in the third person if i so choose:-)
With that being said:
Righter hopes that you have holidays that are safe and enjoyable.
Melvin–whatrucooking???
One thing that he said is true. If you ‘can’t get behnd the vision of the pastor then you need to go somewhere else’…….works for me all day long!!
Well said. Simple and True
Where are we told to get behind any pastor’s “vision” in the Bible?? I only see getting behind the Gospel.
I always thought that we were supposed to follow leaders who were following Christ alone? At least that is what Paul taught. Besides how many visions does God have to give. If He gives two people two different visions, then by nature it becomes di-vision. Now while it may be true that we have different functions and abilities, we are still one body- never working against itself. All these man-made visions only seek to establish the will of the pastor, not God.
The bible said that you need no man to teach you anything. The Holy Spirit that knows all things will teach you.
Hello Rose,
That isn’t true exactly. Read 1 and 2nd Timothy and Titus. Paul charges both Timothy and Titus to “TEACH” what is in according with sound doctrine. Also if you go to Ephesians and 1 Corinthians 12 we see people with the gift of teaching. To sum it up, I think it is in James when man are charged to not be so eager to be a teacher, because of a harsher judgement. So they were teaching someone and I believe that these someones are Christians.
IC, just because you have the Holy Spirit doesn’t mean that you can teach yourself completely. It has nothing to do with possessing a bible or not. I think you are crushing your own strawman again bro. If this is the case lets close all churches and remove the office of Elder (whose primary role is to teach differing from that of a deacon) and sing songs and feed the poor.
So no one is limiting the role of the Holy Spirit; however, teaching God’s word is the normal function of the church. As a matter of fact isn’t this word one of the imperatives in Matthew 28?
May I also add Acts 8:27-31 where the Ethiopian eunuch made the profound statement concerning his desire to understand the Word. I think that if all of us who think that the Holy Spirit is supposed to teach us without the role of a teacher, you may want to apply this passage and glean from its truth.
Hi Rose…….since this verse gets butchered regularly throughout the church, let me take a stab at putting this Scripture in its context.
1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
OK…..the first rule of hermeneutics is to NEVER pull a verse out of its context and seek to understand it isolated from the surrounding text.
In this case, in isolation, it SEEMS the Bible is saying that we don’t need men to teach us anything. However,that would contradict the Bible in hundreds of other places. For example, the same Holy Spirit Who seems to be telling us that we don’t need men to teach us is the Holy Spirit Who gives the gift of teaching to MEN in the church.
Rom 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, [let us prophesy] according to the proportion of faith;
Rom 12:7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
1Cr 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
Not only did God set men into the church to teach, He elevated them to a status just below apostle and prophet,and the Holy Spirit is the One Who specifically empowers these men God calls to teach. Why would He call and empower men to teach in the church if He didn’t want or need men called and empowered to teach in the church??
We also see throughout the NT that teaching in the church by men gifted to do so is ubiquitous and commended by God.In just the NT from Acts to Jude I found over 30 references that command men in the church to teach sound doctrine to others in the church, and that’s just from a cursory look. I would find many more if I put in the time,and many MANY more if I went through the OTas well, but 30 in the NT should suffice. Here are some of the more prominent ones:
Gal 6:6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
1Ti 4:11 These things command and teach.
2Ti 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all [men], apt to teach
Hbr 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God;
So, we must ask ourselves a foundational question……is the Holy Spirit a schizophrenic?? Is the Holy Spirit on one hand telling us that we don’t NEED men to teach us, while simultaneously setting the Office of teacher in the church, empowering men with the GIFT of teaching in the church,and commanding us to TEACH sound doctrine in the church?? Of course not.
The Holy Spirit is NOT saying in 1 John that we don’t need men to teach us. Let’s look at the verse in question with the surrounding verses in context so we can see that He does not contradict Himself.
1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
(GV) What is the SUBJECT that John is addressing here?? False teachers. Deceivers.Keep this in mind.
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
(GV) WHO went out from us?? Again, the subject hasn’t changed. False teachers.
1Jo 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
1Jo 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 1Jo 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].
1Jo 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
1Jo 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, [even] eternal life.
(GV) All this above is STILL talking about false teachers, and telling the church that the UNCTION they have from the Holy Spirit teaches them all things they need to discern WHO are the FALSE TEACHERS among them. Remember, the SUBJECT here is false teachers, NOT whether or not men should teach at all.
1Jo 2:26 These [things] have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
(GV) Again, the Holy Spirit makes clear what the SUBJECT is here…….not whether men SHOULD teach, but whether the unction He has given us will direct us to KNOW false teaching when we hear it. That question is answered below definitively.
1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you:
(GV) We don’t need any man to teach us WHAT??? Remember the SUBJECT.We don’t need any man to teach us whether something is FALSE TEACHING. That is what the Unction/Anointing that the Holy Spirit imparted to us DOES……it bears witness to the Truthfulness of what is being taught.
but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
(GV) That anointing teaches us all things pertaining to Truth. One of the ways it DOES that is by bearing witness with our spirit whether what we are hear being taught is false or true. Remember, the SUBJECT that John is addressing is FALSE TEACHERS and the ability of the Unction/Anointing within us to discern whether what is being taught is false or true. The subject was NEVER whether men should teach us AT ALL, but whether the Holy Spirit empowers us to know whether what men teach us is Truth.
ANOTHER way the Holy Spirit teaches us is through the office of teacher, who He Himself set in the church, who He Himself empowers with the gift of teaching, and who He Himself commands to fulfill that office in the Scriptures I cited (and dozens more). The office of teacher has not passed away,and the duty of teachers to teach sound doctrine in the church still stands today.
Context,context, context. I hope this helps a bit.
Hello, “GaryV”:
Whew, you nailed that one!
And, may I thank you on behalf of our dear Jenkinsite, Rose Anderson-Wise, for a job well done.
I hope she cuts and pastes your nice answer, studies up a tad, and returns to Glenarden to lead a ladies’ bible class on 1 John 2.
Love,
Peter
GV I agree wholeheartedly with your exposition. The Holy Spirit is not double-minded or unstable. I had wrestled with this scripture in times past because I looked at it the wrong way- out of context. Funny thing though, it was a teacher (my former pastor) who set me straight on it and showed me how to look at the entire scripture in context (something I didn’t get when I was COGIC) lol
Thank you brother, That was really well put and straight to the point. The Big problem in the body of Christ today is ignorance and being to lazy to pick up that yellow pages size bible they carry around and actually read it. How anyone who has actually read the bible can follow any of these heretics and apostates is just beyond belief to me. By the way I happen to take care in my work of 16 schizophrenics and I read the bible to them all the time,and they love hearing the word of God,and I see more of the Light and love of God in these poor hurting souls,then in any of those cult hole that are better suited for a hockey game or rock concert, And their far more Lucid then any of those fallen apostates, because they understand context and content and I have shown them that. We either believe the whole word of God as he has given it to us, or we’re just Sunday morning popcorn scripturalist, or at least the heretics are, All the Blessings of the great I AM,and his son our Lord and savior Jesus Christ the Holy Lamb of God upon all the remnant,..Amen
Gary V,
You said ” ubiquitous ” I had to go to my dictionary for that one brother LOL. My context clues didn’t even help.
Thanks to all for the kind words……….and blackandreformed, if you were just a sheeple you would have assumed “ubiquitous” meant something about prospering and taking dominion. Sheeple never look things up
My brother , my brother oh how I have missed your words of wisdom. Great job breaking down this scripture. You are a awesome teacher. I hope this is not the only forum in which you utilize your gift, that would be a shame. I hope you and the fam are doing well. Shoot me a email at JCrep32@Juno.com I think the last time I left my email address for you, you may have missed it. Stay up
Melvin, you know that 1 Hesitations 9:12 says:
Let’s just call the Holy Spirit useless for a saint. Let’s pack up all the Bibles and only let clergy read them like with the old Roman Catholic church
.
This is so wrong on so many levels!!
1) EVERYONE DOES HAVE A GIFT THAT GOD HAS GIVEN THEM. (A spiritual gift is the God-given capacity of every Christian to carry out his function in the body of Christ.)
2) Pauls says that we are to “follow him as he follows Christ.”
3) The bible says that not only are we to teach ourselves God’s word, but we are also to teach our children.
4) We are not just to “leave alone” teachings by ANYONE, including pastors, that is in error.
5) What is the Holy Spirit for if it is not to guide and TEACH us when no pastor or leader is around???
6) God’s church is NOT an organization! It is a living, breathing organism! It is HIS body and He is the head that teaches us all things!
Melvin, God is going to get John Jenkins for preaching contrary to what He has instructed and abusing his spiritual authority. The sad part about all of this is that this sounds like more of a “cult” than the body of my Lord Jesus Christ.
Can I teach myself about God’s word? For the answer, see the following:
1)Only be careful, and watch yourselves closely so that you do not forget the things your eyes have seen or let them slip from your heart as long as you live. Teach them to your children and to their children after them.
“Just make sure you stay alert. Keep close watch over yourselves. Don’t forget anything of what you’ve seen. Don’t let your heart wander off. Stay vigilant as long as you live. TEACH what you’ve seen and heard to your children and grandchildren.”-Deut. 4:9
“You shall whet and sharpen them so as to make them penetrate, and TEACH and impress them diligently upon the [minds and] hearts of your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down and when you rise up.” Deut. 4:7
“But the Comforter (Counselor, Helper, Intercessor, Advocate, Strengthener, Standby), the Holy Spirit, Whom the Father will send in My name [in My place, to represent Me and act on My behalf], He will teach you all things. And He will cause you to recall (will remind you of, bring to your remembrance) everything I have told you.” John 14:26
FINALLY…God says, “you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.”
In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! Hebrews 5:12
Also, see;
http://www.actseighteen.com/articles/authority-abuse.htm
His words and tone are those of a church leader that practices spiritual abuse and controlling techniques. I am an educator by profession. I spend a majority of my time studying, researching, and TEACHING myself. While I have had formal foundational training, as a life-long learner, I must continue to teach myself so that when I require knowledge for a certain situation, it has already been planted and all I have to do is retrieve it. The same thing applies in the spiritual for those of us that desire mature (grow-up!). As babes in Christ, we must be taught all things. If one can take the time to teach themselves a trade, to read, sew, speak another language, skate, drive, etc. They can definitely teach themselves to submit to God and learn His word.
The Holy Spirit as my ultimate teacher….sorry Jenkins!
I wonder what his supporters will say to this?
Thanks for posting this Melvin!
So I guess “Study to show YOURSELF approved” in 2 Timothy 2:15 doesn’t really mean what it says according to the gospel of pimpology.
Melvin, you should never have posted this. It proves John is right. Obviously, he’s been trying to teach himself and this pathetic display is the result.
And just think, I got to sit under this bilge water for six years. Toward the end, I used to bring a book to church and read it during the endless praise and worship and the pointless preaching.
Once I left, even my children pointed out that the time we spent there was a waste.
Melvin, even with all of the audio/video proof, your wife still won’t leave?
(MN: I don’t run to her and say “Listen to this, blah, blah, blah.” All that does is cause her to focus on me and not the issue. It’s going to be God working on her heart, not me working on her mind.
A bit of background. You know where it says husband, like Christ are to wash their wives with the water of the Word. Well…uh…I…I washed her, but I kept using a high-pressure hose on her. The dark spots where the flesh got blasted away are still there. Remember what I have told ya’ll before. In my younger, stupider days, I was a regular Doctrinal attack dog. And I didn’t limit the assaults to unbelievers. She never really recovered very well. On this end, I generally have to leave her alone to come to her own conclusions. If I get too insistent, her eyes are on me rather than the issue. For instance, she is beginning to see the importance of right doctrine as we watched Carlton Pearson and his denial of hell based on his being trained that you can lose your salvation. She can see that bad doctrine can indeed have an impact on the eternal destination of other folks even if it doesn’t send her to hell. And she readily admits that people who watch Joel “Willow Boy” Osteen are not getting the Gospel. )
I believe that many preachers take this scripture Romans 10:14-15 and run with it not considering that the Lord gave the sheep the right to examine scriptures and other things like the prophet, apostle and even angels by inquiring to the Lord themselves.
Romans 10:14-15 starts with this:
So if I already believe and heard the message of Christ, how can someone claim I need John Jenkins? As saints we need to be part of a group of believers, that has elders that do watch over that fellowship, Hebrews 13:17. However, this does not mean one can’t learn on their own with the Holy Spirit leading them personally. I would be a fool to ultimately let a man lead me with his “vision” rather than Christ. We do not submit to a man who departs from the truth the Holy Spirit has led us to in scripture. Holding to the HEAD means we follow Christ first and once some man strays, we still keep following Christ and if we can’t help that man get straight, let him walk the broad road alone, Colossians 2:18-19.
Some claim holding to the HEAD is whatever they make up. Claiming we should not hold all things to scripture. Some even claim all of scripture is not the Word of God for each of us, but some old reference manual of words to other people. I turn from any that make such claims. If it was good to hold an apostle up to scripture, I say we certainly better for these men today, Acts 17:10-12. All who desire to follow something other than the SURE WORD will face the perils I faced with pimps or worse, 2 Peter 1:16-21.
IC, there is a scripture and I don’t know where it is but I used to hear it in church and I heard it on a religious network one day. It’s about listening to someone of authority for they watch for your souls. I believe they use that scripture to say that we must listen to the vision of the pastor.
Hello Angela. It’s Hebrews 13:17. Of course the text is talking about “true shepherds”, not the ones we see on TV who are teaching “another gospel”.
Ms. Angela, that scrip. is Heb. 13:17. I know you were addressing IC but I thought I would jump into the conversation.
I had the scrip. readily available b/c I was using my Bible software program to look up every scrip. with the word “submit” b/c my pastor’s wife said something about obeying leadership specifically the pastor the other day. I was wondering about that b/c I thought the NT said we were to submit to leaders and not obey them but there it is.
I haven’t studied the book of Hebrews yet but I do not think that scrip. is saying that there should be blind and dumb obedience such as J.K. seems to be suggesting (oops) I mean declaring affirmatively.
Like I said I just started looking at Heb. 13:17 for other reasons but I think it is relevant to this post. Perhaps someone who has studied this verse can offer more insight. I did look up the Greek word and it is “peitho” which is similar to the Greek word “pistis” which is translated faith in English. The verb “peitho” means to be persuaded. Interesting….
I have come to no conclusions yet…just sharing what I have seen so far.
Thanks Saiko and Melanie. However, I didn’t realize that IC have already mentioned that scripture until I re-read his comments. My bad.
I was watching my current church’s Wed night webcast last night when this whole thing came up there. Our church renectly built a 2+ million dollar “Family Life Center” with a gymnasium, workout facilities, classrooms (for the recently started “Bible Institute”), etc. While ours is not a “debt-free” church, tithing and “faith promise” campaigns are pushed HEAVILY.
Our pastor’s son-in-law (who heads a church down in Florida) was speaking last night about getting behind the pastor’s vision, not questioning him, asking “how high?” when he says “jump”, and goings out of your way for him, his wife (the “First Lady”), and his staff. The usual verses were trotted-out: Hebrews 13:17, segments from 1 & 2 Samuel about armor-bearers, and the tried-and-true account of the people holding-up Moses’ arms. I about fell out of my chair when he pointed to the story of David’s mighty-men fetching water for him… he said “See! These men got their names in The Book just for bringing the Man of God a glass of water!!”
Combine this with the fact that many in our church privately hold that the pastor is an Apostle or a Prophet, and it’s getting harder and harder for me to stay. There’s constant talk about the need for “revival”, but in listening to most people talk about it, they refer to back when the church got REALLY involved with the Brownsville revival (some of the youth even went, came back, and started twitching and spasming uncontrollably in school - made national news briefly). I almost wish they’d bring Tommy Tenney back to speak again so I could finally put my foot down and just walk out.
Andy, you don’t need to wait for Tenny any more than you have to wait for the floodwater to be over your head before you get in the boat and get to higher ground.
An authoritarian, Scripture twisting, money squeezing passah is enough to necessitate actively searching for a new church.
Add to the Scripture twisting and money grubbing a lack of even the rudimentary discernment and Bible knowledge required to see through the Brownsville debacle, and you should run like Benny Hinn from a lie detector. JMO.
Hello, “AndyB”:
You concluded: “I almost wish they’d bring Tommy Tenuous (my bad) back to speak again so I could finally put my foot down and just walk out.”
Sir, your house is on fire.
Andy , Andy, B,
HA! Yes, I agree, can you not smell the smoke? Don’t drink the red cool aid at communion, okay? You all are being groomed for the stable ( a reference to the word pimp).
This reminds me of when I was a teen and the associate minister told the church our responsibility was to pay our tithes without question. Even if the Sr. Pastor spent it at the racetrack. It was none of our business; GOD would deal with him. An elderly woman in the congregation said to me that day; “Don’t drink the red Cool Aid.” ( a reference to Jim Jones’ massacre) I’m giving you the same advice. Pleeeeaaaasssse take it.
IC gave a great scripture reference. Read it and make an exit plan.
Others have mentioned the verse, I have it in my comment above along with a bit of explanation.
Church leadership is to guide saints in their walk with Christ, not their own “vision”. The church of an area is to work together and leadership facilitates that.
Read 1 Peter 5:1-7. Church elders are to lead in the form or oversight and example, not domineering or lording the flock. The Lord is the Lord, not the elders. We are to work in humility with church leaders (yes submit and obey) who follow the Lord, not their “vision(s)”.
Mel, I don’t remember you having a specific post on a pastor’s “vision”, maybe now would be a good time? What do you think?
JulianofGod, have you seen Melvin’s post titled How to Know When You Are Being Pimped and “step 1″ of the pimp plan
?
Nah, I missed that one. That was in 2005, I think it’s time for an updated version. How about “PROPHE-LIE VISION 2008″? I can see it now IC, you just need to get in line with d’ vision o’ d mand gawd! And pay your tithes while your at it lol
Perhaps Pimp U can offer a class on “visions”
?
You know this is why I say: if I go to hell it won’t be because of people like this. I believe that the sacred (saints) and the unclean (sinner) is not to be taught together. unless you have a group of saved saints being perfected, God is not in it. The church today is functioning out of the order of God, and void of his presence. All because we have trusted and received handed down religion, religious slave mind sets. We must break free and be true worshipers. oops I’m free, yall must come out seek the truth for your generations to come.
I suppose that meant something to somebody………somewhere.
Interesting, i suppose then that Galatians 1:6-9 doesn’t apply to him?
(MN: But apparently he doesn’t preach anything that is contrary to what they were taught. If he did, according to him, they have his permission to ignore what he says. But wait a minute. The only way they could tell if there is something in the Bible that disagrees with what he says is if they teach themselves…but they cannot teach themselves…therefore they cannot find anything to disagree with…but if they did find something they could…but they should leave if they disagree…but if they don’t teach themselves they won’t know they should leave…illogical…illogical. Norman, please advise. Norman please advise. )
ok i get it, its not like he’s not teaching them another Gospel or anything contrary to the principals of scripture. And to take it a step further, I would be violating the Bible by ’studying to show myself approved’ or ‘testing the spirits’. I guess the Bareans where critical pharisees by questioning Paul’s anointing. Yeah, Mr. Jenkins is right on the money.
To MN:
Are you referring to my favorite “Star Trek” episode?: The Changeling?
(MN: I was thinking of the androids in “I, Mudd”. But “The Changeling” had a good logic scene too. )
Now lets see if JJ and his followers have a scripture to back up what he preached, or will it be more of the same. (Melvin hates the church, JJ was taken out of context, why do you put your mouth on the man of gawd, BLAH BLAH BLAH)
Its funny how the sheeple he’s speaking to yell and scream AMEN at his statements without really opening up the Bible to compare.
They are trained to react to the strength of his voice instead of the words coming out of his mouth (DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE WORDS COMIN’ OUTTA MY MOUTH?)
If I hear another organ induced, vein poppin’, screaming at me like the buildings on fire sermon, I might go to church sit in the pew and scream back at them, “Is this how Jesus preached, by screaming at the people??”
HE’S NOT SCREAMIN’, THAT JUSS DE WAY HE TAWLK LOL
Jesus was very stern and preached with authority in his voice and with it came out the truth. So did the man who paved the way for Him, John the Baptist.
This reminds me of a scene in the movie “American President” starring Michael Douglas, Annette Bening, Richard Dryfuss and Michael J. Fox. Towards the end there’s an exchange between Douglas’ character and Fox’s. It goes like this:
Fox: “People want leadership Mr. President and in the absence of genuine leadership they’ll listen to anyone who steps up to the microphone. They want leadership. They’re so thirsty for it, they’ll crawl through the desert toward a mirage and when they discover there’s no water they’ll drink the sand.”
Douglas: “Lewis, we’ve had presidents we’ve loved who couldn’t find a coherent sentence with two hands and a flashlight. People don’t drink the sand because they’re thirsty, they drink the sand because they don’t know the difference.”
(BLD) People that listen to and follow men like John K. Jenkins really don’t want leadership. They want to abdicate responsibility for their spiritual well being to someone else. With that attitude, which is an indication of either ignorance, non regeneration or both, people are less likely to be rightfully discerning when choosing a leader. They will in fact “drink the sand” and build their foundation on it because they truly don’t know the difference. We must pray for all those who are blind and in those churches, that God would open their eyes, grant them repentance and give them the courage to get out!
(MN: Amen! )
SCRIPTURE:
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
their not seeking leadership, scripture tell us what their looking for.
I think the “vision” thing came from Oral Roberts and was passed down to Carlton Pearson. Back when the charismatic/neo-Pentecostal movement was taking off, CP had this vision that he wrote. He said he had asked God why all these white preachers could build so much for the kingdom, and so God gave him a vision to build schools, nursing homes, etc.
Other ministries quickly adopted this same scheme. Isn’t it interesting what road CP is on now, in light of how instrumental he was in leading the crazimatic, I mean, charismatic movement back in the day of his Azusa conferences?
WOW! Melvin,
That was very cult like. Yuck! I can remember the same stuff coming out of the COGIC and AoG regarding following the Preacher as if we are all too dumb to understand the truth. Funny how slaves were not allowed to read also back in the day. Hmmm! Or how about the Catholic Church and there “must read in Latin” back in the day. Sigh!
Kyle
Mel,
I see Pastor Jenkins has a College, or something. Did you ever read his course catalog?
Bible Institute
Kyle
(MN: Actually, he and Bethel Seminary out of the Midwest, established an extension seminary/bible college there at First Baptist. And yes, I have looked at the the catalog. I am working on an article about the direction they are taking the church with the classes. Emergent crap and transformational hooey is being promoted big time. )
I didn’t see “too” much in regards to the emergent Church relative to some of the others. I mean I have seen down right Communist Manifesto stuff on some emergent Church sites. That being said I did see the whole “finances” thing and a weight loss class (As if that has anything to do with the gospel) But besides that it seemed like the generic luke warm stuff everyone is doing. Not that I’m condoning it at all it’s just that you have to thank God for little things-LOL! But seriously when I looked at the courses I saw the usual “learn the gifts” and such. This is all the typical feel good stuff that has been going on.
Kyle
Take a look at the classes being offered by Bethel there at First Baptist.
To All: There seems to be a consensus that the members of these churches don’t know any better. My question is, do you think the pastors and other leaders are in the same condition. Maybe they don’t know any better and have chosen to believe a certain way based on what ever circumstances they are in. If a person is wrong, he doesn’t know he is wrong until he is convinced otherwise. If a person is deceived, not only does he not know it, but he is very skeptical of anyone pointing out the deception.
It’s hard for me to believe that a pastor would purposefully teach doctrines of devils with the full knowledge that people will end up in hell. [That reminds me of a joke where an old church “mother” wakes up in hell. She wondered around trying to figure out how she got there until she saw her pastor there as well.] But my question remains, do you think a wayward pastor really knows he’s wrong?
To answer your question, some pastors actually have been deceived, and thus deceiving their members.
But, Jesus prophesied about false teachers, who arent just “deceived” they are full blown agents of satan himself.
Many of these people who claim to preach Christ actually are preaching a false christ that they have created in their own imaginations.
The Bible speaks many, many times of men/women who will drag many to hell with damning doctrines. Matthew 7 comes to mind.
You are right, some of these “church leaders” are just a little deceived.
But, some do not have saving faith in Jesus, and will not be saved by God becuase they denied the Creator, and served an idol with the name jesus on slapped on it.
Friend, have faith in God… God is good, gracious, just, and right in everything He does. He will have mercy on whomever He chooses to have mercy on. GOD is the one who saves. Salvation is the work of GOD demonstrating HIS glory.
We are commanded to preach the gospel of Christ. ***God will save who He wants to save,,,He will do His work***…. We are just supposed to preach the gospel, and God will handle His. He knows who are His, and who arent..
If God does not save some of these false teachers, trust Him, because it will be a correctly made decision.
If God does save some of these false teachers, trust Him, becuase it will be a correctly made decision. He is God, and there will be no criticism of Him. What He does is good, because He is God.
All we can do is share the gospel my friend. He does all the work.
2Cor4:8,
It’s self perpetuating. It snow balls. Melvin pointed this out when he first was at Johns Church. It’s really simple. The path to hell is paved with good intentions. I’m sure many churches start out with the correct motive but once power gets in the way corruption soon follows. This leads me to another saying. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Kyle
Here’s a posting from a while back. I think it does an okay job of understanding these guys; some of them, anyway.
The fable on that other post brings to mind a couple of scriptures. In Matthew 11:30, Jesus explains that his yoke is easy and his burden is light. And I John 5:3 says “for this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.” I don’t see any mention there about following some man’s vision, making outlandish building fund pledges or committing to some weird membership covenant. Perhaps these modern day leaders are just remanufactured pharisees and saducees who require people to do things that they don’t even do themselves?
AH! Are you KIDDING ME? He bugs! Make it stop!
Thanks Mr. melvin for posting this and i am encourageedof the many people that realize how incorrect in the scripture this guy is. I love Ephiphanys comment, i personally don’t think God operates like the Mosses era anymore, using one man to lead a group of people. Lord if we had to depend on these pastors to give us true biblical teachings the pinnacle of our salvation would end at a new car and new house. Being a better person , etc. i think we are witnessing the ultimate merger of worldly principles mixed with things from the bible and it all boils down to money and fame. Its a reason why The bible says Jesus avoided fame. Thank God for motiveless men and women of God that speaks the truth. A lot of things Jesus taught had nothing to do with this life. But as long as man hold on to this life and the things of this world, they will all sound like Dr. Phill and oprah.
I’m sorry , they are just becoming too predictable.
Greetings in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I am a current member of FBCG and attend regularly. I have read the articles on this site for a few weeks now. I do believe in apologetics and defending the true faith. I will say that I admire the author of this site for standing for Truth and seeking out that Truth with passion. A few years ago, I became more discerning of those who teach false doctrines. It is a scary thing to witness deception in action. It’s like a horror movie as you see satan deceiving leaders and their followers. One of the most vivid and disturbing examples of this is when I read the book “Left To Tell” about a female survivor of the Rwandan holocaust.
Imagine thousands of people possessed by continuous propaganda on the radio. Their minds were taken over by repetitive teaching of bad ideologies. So much so, that neighbor turned against neighbor. Hacking them to pieces. Dashing infants against stones. Walking around with machetes and hacking their victims to pieces from seniors to children. Even in churches. The people doing the killing were coerced and convinced that this was just, righteous, and true.
While what’s going on in our churches today is not as morbid, it parallels how deception can lead to making the wrong choices. It has gotten so now that I no longer watch any TV evangelist. I no longer listen to any preacher on the radio. I have decided a long time ago that I must study for myself. I can’t depend on those who are in leadership to have all the right answers.
I’m not a student without a teachers manual. The Bible is the teachers manual. We just need our leaders to keep us focused on the course God has already put us on as individuals in Christ. Much like a shepherd. The sheep eat, reproduce, and grow wool. The shepherd facilitates this by his leadership skills. We as Christians, are to love our neighbors as ourselves, walk in Christ, and study His Word. It is our leaders’ jobs to facilitate that. Enough with the new visions, levels, and words. Our focus should be on the very basics. Everything will fall into place.
I’m sorry to say that I don’t feel as comfortable as I used to be a few years ago. I feel my church is headed in a direction that doesn’t sit well with me. It is something I have to work out on my own and will continue to weigh my options. I will be considering other churches to attend. FBCG was good for getting me off the ground as a young Christian, but now that I’m mature, I can see that my needs are different at this point in my life. It is frustrating as a Christian to witness so many divisions and deception in the faith. It forces you to study for yourself. Would you trust just anyone with your salvation? I place my life in God’s hands and ask for His wisdom to learn His word. The path to salvation is surely straight and increasingly narrow. (MN: This is a really good start. Stay on this path and you will do just fine. As you grow, before you leave, start asking people questions whose answers will clearly focus on the leadership’s actions contradicting Scripture. You might start asking these questions of the deacons and “elders”. I doubt you will be able to get close enough to John to actually have any kind of conversation with him. )
I’m not very confrontational. I do respect one of the deacons a great deal. He has a very quiet and soft spirit. He’s very approachable. (MN: That would be either Lawrence Lee or Mike Julius, no doubt. )
I’m not sure the pastor would be as inviting. Especially since he preached on unity among the Brethren on Dec 9th at 6:30pm. He was pretty pissed off at those that disagree with his vision and leadership. Not gonna touch that with a ten foot pole.
(MN: Well how about an eight foot Czechoslovakian? [bahdump bump] )
Funny you should mention not getting too close to his people, Melvin. I am reading an atricle on Sheepherders and one of the characterisics is the the Sheepherder always smell like the sheep becuase he is always close to them. Hmm.
(MN: Jay Cameron’s play “Church Mafia” made exactly that point. The pastor in the play was convinced that if you get too close to the sheeple, you’ll smell like them and they won’t respect you. )
FBCG member, before you decide to leave, make a appointment with Pastor Jenkins. He does take appointments. Also, I have ran into Pastor at numerous functions at the church and he is very approachable. Just my opinion. Just give it a try!
In Order - socializing at a function is not the same as asking him hard questions that call his preaching and teaching into doubt. John is quite unwilling to accept much of anything from those around him.
And if FBCG Member isn’t careful, he/she’ll get branded as a reader of P-P.org.
I remember, about ten years ago, John trying to defend Benny Hinn. He doesn’t know how to actually disagree with another person. His untimate defense is two part: 1) we’re just interpreting scripture differently and 2) I’ve been ministering for 25 years.
I hope he gives you more than that, but I urge you not to count on it. Remember, he’s busy telling you people that YOU CAN’T TEACH YOURSELF!
Yeah, he’s really gonna listen when one of the sheeple dares to call him to task. Remember, if you can’t get with that Mand of Gawd’s vision, then you need to go some place else and get with the vision of another Mand of Gawd.
Sure, that sounds real approachable to me. Doesn’t it sound approachable to you?
On Melvin’s 2nd point my late mentor (in the naval service) Commodore Mervyn Williams always said ” Young man, the antiquity of a practice in no way justifies its continuance!”
“Feed the flock, not on the flock.”