(The good Passah and LarryD have been corresponding by e-mail. Lawrence has been trying to get the good Passah to defend and explain some of his statements, statements the good Passah said he would explain in essays on his website. I visited the web site. So far all he has presented is a somewhat mixed summary of that which is sometimes referred to as being filled with the Holy Spirit. However, the real meat, the real indicator of where the good Passah is spiritually is reflected in his correspondence, not his ability to reproduce what someone else has written. You know - walking the walk and not just talking it.
Here is one of the good Passah’s “responses” to Lawrence. He gave Lawrence permission to post it.
You may not be able to read the entire e-mail - and that’s fine. My main interest here is for you to see how he attempts to deal with those who would disagree with him. Again, if you can’t muster the energy or stomach to read the entire post, my feelings will not be hurt. I just want to get the good Passah out of our system once and for all, at least for this thread. His involvement in future threads will be decided much more quickly.
Finally, please note that with the exception of a quote from an epistle to Timothy [used to call Lawrence foolish], the missive is seriously lacking in anything Bible, even a twisted application. It’s simply insults from one end to the other.
If you go out to the dunamis site, you can see he’s an older fella. You would have thought maturing in what he calls the Holy Spirit would have mellowed him somewhat. But he’s spewing as much venom now as he likely was when he first got involved in the whole COGIC thing. )
From: “********@netzero.net” < *********@netzero.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 03:37:31 GM
Mr. COGIC HAS BEEN Lawrence,
You are in a MUCH worse condition than I could have ever imagined. Those who have helped lead you down this trail of antiquated scriptural interpretation and flat out rejection of TRUTH will pay for their obvious SINS along with you for your willingness to follow and be swayed from real TRUTH. By the way I DON’T take you seriously because you are a JOKE or at least to a certain extent. I’ll show you why:
A back-slidden, defunct preacher, who came in off the accolades of YOUR FATHER (who I’M SURE was a GOOD MAN)…But you didn’t pay for your promotion within the church in any way, you probably rode off of your associations and FAMILY name, MORE THAN likely obsessed over some sin in your life, felt convicted because you never did anything but probably “feel good” spiritually, and then had the nerve to become ungrateful and now spend you time bashing the very beliefs that sustained your family for years…
PLEASE! Like Mayor Harold Washington said about the Daily family of Chicago “Why should I RESPECT SOMEONE WHO DIDN’T EARN WHAT THEY GOT and WHO DOESN’T HONOR ME, MY HISTORY OR ANYTHING I STAND?”
FURTHER, you have NO IDEA of what the COGIC Manual is about (IF YOU EVER HAD ONE) AND HAVE THE NERVE TO COMPARE A BOOK OUTLINING LITERGY, DOCTRINAL SUMMATIONS AND DISCPLINARY GUIDELINES… with OCCULT works such as the The Book Of Mormon and the The New World Translation. YOU ARE PITIFUL and a FARCE to the highest degree!
But one thing I do, I pray for your family which I’m sure has been disjointed because of your fantasies and absurd illusions. People can’t take ridiculous positions in spiritual matters such as you have without it effecting wholesome relationships.
So far as your methods, you take things to a whole new level of biased scriptural interpretation and stand on the shoulders of other NON HOLY GHOST FILLED individuals to come to your conclusions. Then to add more fantasy to reality, you superimpose your experience on top of historical traditions, (which you obviously DON’T KNOW as well as you think you do), and combine that with reformationist thought which was inspired by individuals, many of whom certainly DID NOT believe in the perpetuity of Spiritual Gifts. I also see you like to throw around words as if NO ONE knows what you’re talking about, (Ie…HERMENEUTICS, EXEGESIS AND EXPOSITION) when I’m PERSUADED that you’re really trying to convince an affirm YOURSELF in your own self indulgence for councious sake.
For those reasons and more that I perceive by the revelation of the Holy Ghost (remember HIM?), that I’m directed to RETRAIN you in sound Biblical understanding of TRUTH, HOLINESS, RIGHTEOUSNESS AND THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY GHOST. From your ridiculous email I see that you also need a class in The Art and Science of Biblical Interpretation…by the way do you really know what that is? I mean you use the word but you’ve yet to convince me that you do.
I also pray that your self-leading and following of other rejecters of the TRUTH of the Baptism Of The Holy Ghost, hasn’t led you into the category of blasphemy and or to the place where God has rejected you or turned you over to a reprobate mind. If you’re angry reading this, THAT’S ONE SURE SIGN THAT YOU’RE ABOUT GONE.
Now, it also sounds like you’ve been an avid reader of both “Christianity In Crisis” and or “Counterfeit Revival” both of which comes from a good hearted man who is simply off base even as you are and places way too much confidence in the teachings of Jonathan Edwards. If not, you’ve certainly bought into the unbalanced teachings vicariously through either Melvin or other misguided individuals.
Look, I’ve been a SERIOUS, not casual, Bible STUDENT and SERVANT for over 25 years and YOU SAY ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that I haven’t heard of and don’t know how to handle. Yet, with ALL of that, and ALL the scholarly work I’ve received and DONE, I’m more convinced in the BIBLICAL and HISTORICAL mode and teaching of the empowerment of the Holy Ghost or “Second Blessing” as you bland Calvinists say, than EVER BEFORE. People like you and Mely- Mel show us OVER AND OVER that there’s a need for us, THE TRUE NEW TESTAMENT CHURCH to step up our efforts and expose your NON SPIRITUAL positions and dry up the rest of your following by TEACHING THEM THE Life changing flow and power of the Holy Ghost.
You see I know the Bible when it says in II Timothy 2:23 “but FOOLISH and UNLEARNED questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.” You pose foolish questions and think you do it in the name of the Lord. Many of you like Saul, think it’s your job to fight for your false and unlearned doctrines. Although I’ll deal with all that in a later writing.
No. I DON’T TAKE you seriously to the extent that I feel you know any of what you’re talking about. So with that let me give you your first lesson to clarify your bland literary-historical method of scriptural interpretation, or HERMENEUTICS as you say(LOL)
ONE of the most weak “summations” of modern Conservative theology (that you have fallen for hook line and sinker) centers around the belief that doctrine can ONLY be built through DIDACTIC portions of scripture as you so ELOQUENTLY point out in you email. There are 2 reasons that that anyone would want you to believe that idea and more reasons today that CONSERVITIVES such as you continue to perpetuate that lie, and that’s to 1- keep everyone’s understanding where it can be under your control by creating a need for “your elite group of men” to help everyone “properly understand” the WORD. (This was even contrary to Luther and the reformers intent but somehow is where most of you land) and 2- keep people from following and attaining a vibrant spiritual life and empowerment of the HOLY GHOST outside of traditional understanding.
YOUR COMPLETE IDEA IGNORES II Timothy 3:16 “ALL scripture is given by the inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:”
Every portion of SCRIPTURE can be used for teaching and doctrine in as much as it is CORRECTLY and RIGHTLY DIVIDED.
Principles of Sciptural Learning and Bible Education: Church Doctrines and teachings are established by any combination of the following 1- Direct Exposition or Teaching of Scripture, 2- Scriptural Concepts Presented and Revealed by and Through History 3- by Repetitive Scriptural Examples and 4- Intellect and Personal Experience as Contained within Scripture.
YOU’VE NEVER HEARD THAT…WHY BECAUSE YOU INTOXICATED WITH QUASI/SPIRITUAL EXPOSITIONS OF SCRIPTURE THAT ARE MEANT TO KEEP YOU WITHOUT THE POWER OF THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY GHOST.
In this writing I can show you the examples of ALL 4 ways that Doctrines have been established and built upon THE WORD of God…AGAIN, PAY FOR YOUR LEARNING YOURSELF…Put YOURELF THROUGH WHAT I HAD TO GO THROUGH TO GET THE REVELATION OF GOD so that you can gain some respect instead of just TALKING about what you think you know…
From this point on here I’ll get down to REAL business, but not how you think, and certainly not how YOU direct. You wrote me, I DIDN’T write you…Next LESSON in a few days like it or not…
Blessed!
Pastor Harvey Burnett
(MN: Did you notice how, after the excoriating response, the good Passah STILL wants Lawrence to be blessed. I love the way these guys try to burn you at the stake while asking God to bless you. )
This will be posted today at http://www.bethelburnett.blogspot.com…REPENT FOR LEADING THESE PEOPLE ASTRAY MELVIN:
Post This Melvin:
(MN: I have to admit that I didn’t think the good Passah had ‘nads enough to ask me to put up as a comment, a posting from his site. But hey, I guess I shouldn’t be surprised. Afterall he’s a COGIC superintendent and is accustomed to people doing what he tells them to do. Ya’ll go on out to his site and take a look at what he had to say please.
I made an exception with this comment because I’m directing you to his. Have fun. )
what I cannot understand is…instead of attack false pastors/teachers how about share the word of God; (which is undisputable) with all that will listen and from that information alone; it will be clear who are false and who are not. I believe that anyone who reads a few verses and gives you what their interpretation is, writes books and sells them (none of the Apostles did), goes to theology school /learn from books man wrote, (John says: you need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teaches you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it has taught you, you shall abide in him.), or likes to debate (Rom.1:29-32 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.) are false preachers/teachers. Who is going to feed the flock if the false preachers or this site does not do it? I am finding that most if not all of the pastors of today are false and to just stick with the bible. I cannot go wrong with THE WORD OF GOD………..
FDM, let’s DO stick with the Bible. Does the Bible call out false teachers explicitly by name, or does it just teach the Truth and let the Scripture twisters alone??
1Ti 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
1Ti 5:20 Them that sin REBUKE BEFORE ALL, that others also may fear.
Tts 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
Tts 1:11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake.
1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
3Jo 1:9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.
3Jo 1:10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth [them] out of the church.
Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
Gal 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
Gal 2:13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before [them] all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Act 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
Also brother, you should take the time to peruse the archives and articles on the site. There is an enormous resource of sound doctrinal teaching here as well, but the primary focus is to obey the Bible’s admonition to warn and name false teachers/prophets to protect the sheep.
No one ministry can do EVERYTHING. Melvin is called to this ministry. It’s a Biblically valid one, and yet it goes far beyond the exposure of false teachers and spends a great deal of time on Biblical exposition as well.
Brother, we can’t do it all, so feel free to start your own site addressing the aspect of God’s plan to which you feel called rather than question the absolutely Biblical ministry where God called Melvin.
Gary V I apologize if my statement caused you to misunderstand what I was saying however,……. I said leave Paul, Timothy, Peter, James, John…you know the Apostles of the bible out. That was the whole point of my statement. It was stated that Paul was a murder…. as if he (Paul) was a sinner and then became a man of God.
(MN: Uhh…Paul WAS a sinner before he became a Christian. So was Peter, so was John, so was I, so were you. I didn’t say anything on in response to your first couple of postings, but you seem to be getting worse. Where Paul was saying he was blameless in keeping the Law he wasn’t actually claiming to have avoided sin. After all, the Bible says we are born in iniquity and that ALL [including Paul] fall short of the law of God. )
No-one said anything about falling short of the law of God…..that is foolishness…..Jude 42 says: Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy and 2 Peter 5-10 says: And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; and to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that you shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if you do these things, you shall never fall: Now you see how these verses from Jude the Lord’s brother and Peter said you shall never fall……….so tell me again how they fell short of the law of God? And read Hebrews it tells you why the Lord died on the cross (and not a chapter a day this is a letter to the church)
Not a syllable you wrote has a thing to do with what you alleged. Paul was a SINNER. Paul SAID as much. Paul was NOT righteous before God previous to his conversion. Paul said as much.
I’ll take Paul’s word,thank you.
We were all concluded sinners under the old law. The Lord brought in a new law which makes those who believe perfect…….so…….with that in mind how did Paul fall short of the law of God? Remember in 1 John when it says: Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law (So if Paul fell short he would be a transgressor): for sin is the transgression of the law. And you know that he was manifested to TAKE AWAY our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever ABIDES (which Paul did) in him SINS NOT: WHOSOEVER SINS HAS NOT SEEN HIM (which we know Paul and all of the Lords other Apostles did as well) , NEITHER KNOWN HIM (which we know the apostles did). Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is RIGHTEOUS, even as He is righteous. HE THAT COMMITS SIN IS OF THE DEVIL; FOR THE DEVIL SINNED FROM THE BEGINNING. For this PURPOSE the Son of God was manifested, that he might DESTROY the works of the devil. Whosoever is BORN of God DOES NOT COMMIT SIN; for his seed remains in him: and he CANNOT SIN, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever does not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. So we see here that Paul and his Apostles could not be falling short other wise they would have been transgressors and not holy men of God. And in the previous comment I gave two verses that says you will NEVER FALL if you do those things…..so that also shows that none of them fell in anything.
(MN: So FDM, are you saying you don’t sin? At all? )
FDM is apparently a sinless perfectionist……tell me FDM. Have you ever…….EVER……..looked upon a woman with lust since you got bron again?? EVER since you were Born Again??
Have you EVER told a lie since you were Born Again??
Have you EVER stolen?? Even just by not giving 100% effort 100% of the time at your job since you were Born Again??
Have you ever, for even a nanosecond, not loved God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength since you were Born Again??
Have you always loved everyone perfectly since you were Born Again??
Have you ever uttered a word that you shouldn’t have since you were Born Again??
I believe you quoted John. Why not quote ALL of John??
1Jo 1:8 If WE (including John) say that WE have no sin, WE deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in US.
1Jo 1:9 If WE confess OUR sins, he is faithful and just to forgive US OUR sins, and to cleanse US from all unrighteousness.
1Jo 1:10 If WE say that WE have not sinned, WE make him a liar, and his word is not in US.
Please answer the above questions.If you tell us that you HAVE done those things, your entire argument fails.If you try to tell us that you have NEVER done ANY of those things since you were Born Again, then your argument fails again because you are either a liar or deceived.
And my friends this is why context is important.
2 Tim. 2:23-26 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
2 Timothy 2 is not a means of getting around defending your statements. YOU made the claims, remember?? I’m asking you to defend them by the Bible.
Gary V……….since when did the bible stop warning every man about false preachers/teachers? I think the word sums it up better.
FDM, since when did the Bible stop being the rule of conduct for the church?? Since when did the Bible become something whose examples and precepts can be simply ignored??
I provided multiple examples and precepts that prove that the Bible NEVER only taught Truth but ALSO (from cover to cover) confronted false teachers/prophets PERSONALLY.
Now………please provide us with the timeline of progressive revelation that justifies your insistence that we no longer have to do as the Bible teaches by precept and example regarding false teachers. Please use any and all exegetical tools at your disposal to show us any time in the Bible where what you suggest ever actually occurred.TIC TOC.
We shall require two or three witnesses in Scripture IN CONTEXT that reveal that God has changed the pattern of Scripture so that it is no longer binding upon us to follow the Bible’s teaching in this area. Where did this phantom switch occur where we are told to merely teach the Truth and not use that same Truth as well to confront false teachers and warn the sheep (as the Bible instructs from cover to cover)??
If this clear Biblical instruction no longer applies, can you tell us how and when this occurred?? And then please tell us how we can tell which OTHER parts of the Bible no longer apply as well, since you have already stated that Apostolic writings can be disallowed just because you say so.
Oh wait………I remember. The Holy Spirit is all you need for teaching. Except that since you just tossed out the entire New Testament when you told us to disregard the Apostle’s teaching, you just tossed out the Holy Spirit’s teaching as well, since He is the Author of the Bible.
So,how does the Holy Spirit teach you now?? Direct revelation?? Morse Code tapped out on the top of your tin-foil beanie?? How do you TEST ALL THINGS when you “receive” instructions now that you feel free to disregard Apostolic instruction?? Naturally, I can inundate you with precepts and examples from the OT as well since you feel no obligation to retain the Apostolic teaching and examples. Just let me know.
BTW, are you saved?? How do you know?? Because I am now going to follow your example and insist that we disregard the Apostolic teaching and example in THIS area too. By what authority you ask?? Why, by the same authority you exercised when you told us we no longer have to consider the Apostolic teachings in the area of confronting false teachers of course.
After that we can take this new authority and disregard anything the Holy Spirit says in the Old Testament too!! Cuz I guess since we can just throw out anything the Bible says through the Apostles about false teachers on your authority, everything else is fair game since it’s GOD speaking through the Apostles to begin with. So since we’ve already made the leap into disregarding God’s teaching through the Apostles, we can follow the logical progression and disregard everything that the Holy Spirit said through the Prophets too.
And since we arbitrarily decided that we can ignore the Holy Spirit when it comes to false teachers with absolutely no Biblical justification, why stop at disregarding just the Holy Spirit’s teaching on how to deal with false teachers?? Why not disregard it in the area of sex too?? That way we can all get our FREAK on!!!
Oh wait,let’s not get ahead of ourselves. FIRST you have to show us the Scriptural justification you employed to free us from the Holy Spirit’s Apostolic teachings on confronting false teachers.
Of course, that would be despite the fact that the Holy Spirit through the Apostles commanded men who were NOT Apostles to follow the Apostolic example in regard to false teachers (like Timothy, Titus, the Corinthian church, the Galatian church, the Roman church, those addressed by Jude, etc etc, etc).
I look forward to your response.
who said we are not to confront the false preachers?…….I simply said the word sums it up better. The lord did not talk about their love children, their divorce, or even their cheating to prove that they were false, he just simply used the Word. What is wrong with that?
We’re using the Word FDM. The results of their false doctrine are played out in their lives as well, and this has to be dealt with too.
1 Timothy 5 clearly lays out the moral qualifications for ministry, and if we are making a case to the sheeple that their favorite “minister” is disqualified, their failure to meet the standard morally is just as Biblical a reason for their rejection as their false doctrine.
We don’t involve ourselves in gossip. Everything here is either public record or information from their own lips. The moral standard was put in the Bible for the express purpose of giving the church a rule against which to measure those who claim leadership roles. We are using it precisely as it is intended to be used.
Remember, we aren’t here convincing ourselves that these goofs are disqualified, we are trying to convince the duped. And the duped need oftentimes to be hit with overwhelming evidence.
FDM, let me get this straight. You want us to follow the Bible’s instructions to the church, just not whatever is written by or about the Apostles?? Errrrrrrr……..precisely WHAT is left of the instructions to the church?? The chapter and verse numbers and the leather cover.
But,you claim you want to follow the Bible. Have I got that right??
Oh, BTW, I’m going to tell the congregation on Sunday to follow the Bible too……. except the parts written by or about God. I could be the next Joel Osteen.
No you do not have that right…..I said the The BIBLE which is what we are to read the church teaches us about false preachers, we do not have to gossip about the things they have done (ex. their sex scandals, or love children) to prove they are false. Jesus just used The Word of God even Paul did……….
FDM, I’ve already given you the SCRIPTURAL foundation for what we do here. What I’m NOT seeing after all these days is ANY SCRIPTURAL response from you. Go back……..read again…….respond Biblically to the Biblical evidence. I have cited Paul naming names and calling out specific sins of specific false teachers. I have documented God’s instructions that PUBLIC sins are to be dealt with PUBLICLY. What thus far has been your Biblical response?? Nil. Nada. Zilch.
NOTHING we do here is gossip. You may want to avail yourself of a Websters. NOTHING we write here is gossip. What is written here are the very words and actions of the pimps themselves. Not their secret sins, not speculation about their secret sins. We write about what is in the public record, and it follows the command that leaders who sin are to be held PUBLICLY accountable.
Again, perhaps you’d be happier somewhere else?? Please go on and create the site as you think it should be elsewhere, and be sure to let us know when you’ve done it.
As has been said before so well……..I like what we’re doing better than what you’re NOT doing. Get off your posterior and do something yourself,then come back and wag your finger. Until then, it’s all hot air (and thus far no Biblical content).
And as I stipulated to you before…..Paul and all the other Apostles did not reprove with gossip; (love children, divorce, etc) they used the word ALWAYS. I will sum this up with a few verses because it is evident that while you focus on the ones that are obviously false you have no discernment for the subtle wolves. So since you want word I will give you Eph. 5:12 which says: For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them (false preachers) in secret. 2Tim 3:16-17 (remember you are going with Paul on this one so listen to what Paul has to say) ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God, and is PROFITABLE for doctrine, for REPROOF, for CORRECTION, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Tim.4:1-4;
I CHARGE (which is a commandment) you therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; REPROVE, REBUKE, exhort with all longsuffering and DOCTRINE. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. So with that in mind……. I am through with this topic. I will stick with the word of GOD.
FDM, what the heck are you talking about ? You sound like Gilligan after he downed a couple of 40’s. Your comments are confusing and make little sense to me. I’m not trying to be mean but brother you are giving me a headache with the stuff you are writing.
FDM,
Did you have to leave so soon??? I was rather enjoying the dialogue between you and GaryV…Felt like you came to a machine gun fight with a butterknife huh???…Don’t worry, it happens to the best of us…Seems you took the path of least resistance and did what most do when they don’t really have scripture to back their position…an all out retreat…I have to remind you that one of the great things about this site is that we can passionately debate about what is uniquely essential to us individually, yet we can agree to disagree on issues that are non-essential to the body of Christ at-large…So I admire your efforts, but please be sure to bring rightly divided scripture when you come to the table…For instance, I thought it strange that you would choose to disagree with GaryV, bring up Paul’s words as though they would prove that GV’s assertions were wrong, and then capitalize the very words that make Gary’s point…Huh??? You cannot honestly do a thorough research of this site and not find SCRIPTURE (rightly divided of course), REPROOF, CORRECTION, REBUKE or DOCTRINE. What seems to be your point? I had really deemed you to be genuinely concerned with a high view of scripture (and I still do), but you simply butchered the whole idea behind what the apostle is saying in Ephesians 5. I won’t make this exhaustive, but let’s backtrack a few verses so that you can get a good understanding of this. 3: “But fornication, and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not once be named among you, as becometh saints.” (If this is to the saints, what do you think God’s expectation is of those who profess to lead saints in worship, prayer, praise, bible study and lifestyle example?) 5. “For this ye know that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolator, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Chris and God.” (Investigate how many of these so called “preachers” fall into this category. Everyone deals with issues of sin and repentance, but when they fail to acknowledge what is known publicly, yet still claim to be bearers of the gospel, there is truly something wrong, don’t you think? How can you not see that? Do you know these same people preach false gospel from this same book of Ephesians yet fulfill this same passage in their personal life and walk? If they tried to preach from it, you know they read it. Please, reach over, turn off your alarm clock and stop hitting the snooze button. It’s time to wake up.) 6: “Let no man decieve you with vain words…” (How do you suppose a believer is supposed to do this, by “letting the word sum it up better”? You seem to suggest that God’s word has been ineffective, since these pimps recieved the same “CORRECTION” that you highlighted and yet still have no desire to change. If he says “let” no man decieve you, then there is a responsibility to the believer, which we will see in a moment.) 7: “Be not ye therefore partakers with them.” (Got it.) 8: “…walk as children of light.” (Getting closer.) 11: “…have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness..” (Almost there…) “but rather REPROVE them.” (Bingo!!!! Let’s see…now did you want that in Hebrew, or Greek? How about both? Hebrew: Yakach - judge, rebuke, correct, prove, chasten, argue, convict, chide, show reason, reason with, decide, adjudge. Greek: Elegcho - to convict, refute, generally with a suggestion of SHAME of the person convicted, bring to the light, expose, FIND FAULT WITH, correct, BY SPOKEN WORD, to REPREHEND SEVERELY, chide, admonish, TO CALL TO ACCOUNT, SHOW ONE HIS FAULT, DEMAND AN EXPLANATION, BY DEED, to chasten, to PUNISH. What was your definition again?…Oh, I forgot, you didn’t use that scripture…Sorry…I would elaborate, but, errrrrr….ummmm…I think you get the picture…) 12: “For it is a shame to even speak of those things which are done of them in secret.” (Now we get to the verse that you so irresponsibly slaughtered. In light of what we have learned about our reaction to false teachers in the previous verses, common sense tells us that if we have already PUBLICLY and VERBALLY given a BIBLICAL response to their PUBLIC and VERBAL UNBIBLICAL response, then there is no more to be said. Therefore if you have followed God’s wisdom and instruction, there is nothing to add to what has already been brought to light…Speaking of light…”Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.” (verse 14) Cross reference this with Matthew 5:13-15, and something just might click for you. But if not, oh well…Maybe since you feel like just letting the word do it will cause them to change, why don’t you write them a letter with just scriptures on it?…I’m guessing it will probably end up in the same place those mail-in prayer requests go after they take out the money and pretend to “intercede” for the people…right in the shredder…False teachers have been around for centuries, and the instructions by which to deal with them have not yet changed, but perhaps you can do better…ummmmm….Good luck with that…
Typical Scripture twisting FDM. READ THE CONTEXT of Ephesians 5.Ready??
11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. (I guess that verse isn’t IN your version, huh??)12 For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret. 13 But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible,
This verse COMMANDS us to expose them……..all that verse you cited means is that it should not be said these things occur among Christians. It’s NOT saying don’t SPEAK of it, because it just COMMANDED us to EXPOSE IT. And again, we don’t discuss things done IN SECRET anyway,but what they PUBLICLY proclaim.
Good grief……..you’re as bad with the Word as the pimps.
Ready4change……For when for the time you ought to be teachers, you have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that uses milk is unskillful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
But strong meat belongs to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. (Heb. 5:12-14)
In 2 Tim. 4:2 it says: Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; REPROVE, REBUKE, exhort with all longsuffering and DOCTRINE.
I did not say not to rebuke false pastors; I said the word sums it up better. Here we see Paul saying to reprove rebuke, exhort with what? All longsuffering and DOCTRINE!!! (It’s that simple) The same thing I have been saying. In your statement Ready4Change your exact quote: “You seem to suggest that God’s word has been ineffective….” What???? I have been the one saying to use the word. Then you say again: “”Therefore if you have followed God’s wisdom and instruction, there is nothing to add to what has already been brought to light……(then you say)….Maybe since you feel like just letting the word do it; will cause them to change, why don’t you write them a letter with just scriptures on it?”(It has already been done…ex. Matt., Luke, John, Acts, etc.) You need to stop hitting the snooze button you keep contradicting yourself; either the word does it or it doesn’t (stop teaching and learn first)!!!
Also….if you would read your bible and stay out of other books you will learn like I did about this one thing……the TRUE Church was established before the world was made. Do you not know that some are predestined for hell and will never receive the mystery of the Gospel? (He has blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. John 12:40) and some are going to stumble at the word?…….1 Peter 2:8 …and a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. That means that apart from God you cannot even repent [2 Peter 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth];….not even persuade these false preachers whether you do it by Word (like I said) or your way.
(MN: FDM, I guess I lost track of exactly what you are railing about. Can someone out there get me back on track with where this discussion is going and what GaryV has done or said to get FDM upset with him? Other wise, this part of the thread is going to have to be snipped. )
Gary V….Eph.5:13 [your version] but when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible.
I will try to make this short and brief because you evidently need time to study your bible (and get a King James version not the watered down version you have been using)
Who is The light referred to in Eph.???? John 1:6-10
There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the LIGHT (Jesus Christ), that all men THROUGH HIM might believe (which is the only way we are getting into heaven…THRUOGH HIM). He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lights every man that comes into the world (still talking about Jesus). He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Now above the scriptures I just gave you it says this……..John 1:1-2 says: In the beginning was THE WORD, and THE WORD was with God, and THE WORD was God. THE SAME was in the beginning with God.
So in reference to what I have said many times previously, THE LIGHT, THE WORD, WISDOM are all one-and-the-same(manifold wisdom of God); our Lord JESUS CHRIST. And we are to believe on him (THE WORD). HE makes manifest what is in the heart of man. That is why Paul says in Heb.4:12; For THE WORD of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and MARROW, AND IS A DISCERNER OF THE THOUGHTS and INTENTS OF THE HEART.
This is what he is most furious about….people thinking you can do without the word or with some of the word; that is why in Jer. 23:21-22; when he is talking about false preachers/prophets which scatter, he says this about them: I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied. But if they had stood in my counsel, and had CAUSED MY PEOPLE TO HEAR MY WORDS, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.
Zeph.3:1-4; Woe to her that is filthy and polluted, to the oppressing city (talking about churches)! She obeyed not THE VOICE; she received not CORRECTION; she trusted not in the LORD; she drew not near to her God. Her princes (false preachers) within her are roaring lions; her judges (false prophets) are evening wolves; they GNAW NOT THE BONES TILL THE MARROW. Her prophets are light and treacherous persons: her priests have polluted the sanctuary, they have done violence to the law.
Solomon says: (remember him the “wisest man on earth”) Prov. 30:6 ADD YOU NOT UNTO HIS WORDS, UNLESS HE REPROVE YOU, AND YOU BE FOUND A LIAR…….so you see adding anything to his word makes you a liar too and we know that’s an abomination to Him and no liar enters into heaven!!!!! (ex. Saying it is commanded of us to expose them the way you do by discussing their divorce, love children, sex scandals, etc. and not using just the word to reprove)
The Revelation of Jesus Christ 22:18-19 says: For I testify unto every man THAT HEARS THE WORDS OF THE PROPHECY OF THIS BOOK (see you have to have ears to hear which only God gives), If any man shall ADD unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. (see how important The Word of God is now?…..if not; you have been either purposed for destruction or to stumble and I am through talking about this subject with people who are unlearned and/or like to debate and twist scripture.
Sorry………I know I said I would be brief but I also said I would try
If I may say,
I think part of what FDM is trying to say is that when it comes to false teachers, one should simply point people back to what the Word of God says on the issue, leave it at that and move on. Specifically, when it comes to false teachers, rather than going on and saying “Can you believe how messed up so and so is?” and quoting the Word of God on the subject, just say “By their fruits you will know them” (Matthew 7), or point people to what the Word of God says and leave it at that.
(MN: But the extension of what he says is the preacher (if there should even be a preacher) should stand up on Sunday, read a portion of Scripture, and sit down. After all, saying anything after he read the Scriptures would be “adding to the Word”. We have the Word, that’s enough. We don’t need to be adding man’s wisdom to it. Phillip was adding to God’s Word. And in the Old Testament, Ezra and his crowd added to the Word when he had the Word read (Neh 8:8) and they caused them (the people) to understand the sense of the words. Maybe you’re right. We should just quote scripture with no context, no explanation. And once people hear that, they will understand. After all, the Word of God is living and active and there is absolutely no need to get in the way by trying to explain anything. )
To a good degree, I see where he’s coming from. Alot of conversations I’ve witnessed iinvolve people quoting the Word about exposing false teachers/name-calling, but simulatneously doing things such as “having a contest to see who’s the most stupid”, making bets on they’ll do next, or finding humor/delight in continually bringing up conversation about their PUBLIC actions/focusing on them (i.e. “So man, did you hear what so and so did today?)
That can also be considered another form of gossip, since gossip isn’t merely rumors or speculating about personal issues but also SENSATIONAL/TRUE facts, habitiually focusing on the details of another’s life…or casual conversation on their mess-ups
It’s kind of the thing where I don’t have to have a 4hr comedic dialouge about someone who’s a false teacher in order to disprove them, as many have done…..or habitiually bringing their names up for the sake of chit-chat…..
Just say what God has said about them (wolves, beasts, ect), what the fruit of their ministry is, mark them, and go about your way preaching the Gospel till further notice that they’ve changed…(Romans 16:17-20).
This has been part of my experience, as well as Brother Lionel’s, and it’s been effective since simply preaching the Gospel/telling others to the Word is the Power of Salvation (Proverbs 29:18, Psalm 1, Psalm 119:8-9, Romans 1:16-18)….and simply giving them knowledge of What His word says has empowered folks to not have the mentality of delighting moreso in exposing error than simple delight in the Person of Christ (Philippians 3). The people I’m describing are those that everytime you see them, they’re always wanting to discuss how the latest minister messed up….
Honestly, I’m no longer concerned with having table-talk about what so and so did. If people are listening to them and ask me about it, I simply take them back to the Word, show them what it says, recognize that the teacher’s false and move on………
Just talking about their actions 4 kicks/laughs or to pass time may not be appropiate.
FDM,
What you are saying sounds nice and all, but it still fails to address the exact definitions you were given from the scriptures you have provided. You have not yet dealt with the literal meaning of the word reprove, neither can you get around the instructions that we have been given as believers…I am fully aware of the doctrine of predestination, and what I said to you about the “letting the word sum it up” (your words) was an attempt to get you to understand the fact that WE are the living epistles that are known and read of all men, and how would you expect a false teacher to be confonted and reproved unless someone who KNOWS AND UNDERSTANDS what scripture is truly saying exposes their error. No, my friend, you completely misunderstood what I was referring to. To make it simple, the word will not just jump off of the pages and suddenly alert these false preachers that they are doing wrong. The fact that they are wrong is something that they ALREADY KNOW, yet they choose to continue to spew false doctrine. You tend to confuse those who are in the body with those who are specifically opposed to the body and make a mockery of Christ and His church. I am simply stating that we are instructed on what to do in response to this. Now that you’re clear on what was expressed, care to deal with the scriptures that have been presented to you? I mean, after all, since I’m a novice and all, this means that you should be prepared to teach me something. I will certainly entertain any biblical knowledge that you are willing to share that is SPECIFIC to the subject that we are discussing…You know, the one concerning how we deal with false teachers (just in case you forgot.) By the way, the chapter of 2 Timothy that you quote also has the apostle Paul telling Timothy who left him, why they left him, what they did and how to deal with them. It’s a perfect follow up to what he’s talked about in chapter 2 and in many other places of the NT, you know, about…ahem…FALSE TEACHERS. I’m not sure if you read those parts though, because you seem to be quite adept at using part of a scripture without taking into account the complete context, then when it is plainly shown to you, you jump to another misused proof text to try and make a point. You then crave your pet point so much that you fly in the face of scripture which proves it otherwise, and is used in its proper context. Furthermore, you still attempt to use scriptures like John 12 and 1st and 2nd Peter that are talking about the non-elect and the impossibility of converting them. Newsflash FDM. ***NOONE IS TRYING TO CONVERT THE FALSE TEACHERS***. The purpose of this site and many others like it is to WARN THE SHEEP ABOUT THEM. You then accuse me of being a babe in Christ and not able to skillfully handle meat, and that I don’t read the bible that I referred you to…Well, that was expected…Some people tend to become personal when it’s the last card they have in their theological deck…The burden of proof is upon you to show me where the specific definitions that I have given you FROM SCRIPTURE do not mean what they mean, and then give me the correct context and meaning of what the apostle Paul means and says when he uses that word or passage. Up until now, you have miserably failed to do so….So I’ll wait…
Looking back, I’m now guessing that I probably should’ve stayed out of this (lol):
Proverbs 26:17
Like one who seizes a dog by the ears is a passer-by who meddles in a quarrel not his own.
FDM, if you’d like, please hit me up sometime Brah?:
Ggreaves103@comcast.net
I can give you my cell number there, where perhaps we could discuss more-in depth/chat in person and ask you some things….Sometimes, when writing, it’s the case that perhaps what one’s saying isn’t coming out the way they intened….and sometimes, speaking up close/personal more effective. Love to chat sometime, Brah…..
FDM………once again, we are USING THE WORD. Does you KJV have 1st Timothy?? Try reading it.
Also, you’re apparently not only a Sinless Perfectionist, you’re a KJV-Only nutcase as well. Nice combination. Like me to list the errors in translation from the KJV for ya?? Just let me know.
No translation is sanctioned or inspired by God. The AUTOGRAPHS are inspired by God. Google is your friend.
Oh,BTW, just to put on display the utter ignorance of the Word you engage in,let’s see if your claim that the Biblical writers when dealing with the false teachers/heretics only pointed to the Word without comment about their specific sin. Ready?? I’ll only use the KJV for ya too……..
1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
(GV) WELL……….my,my. Here’s Paul (a Biblical writer last I checked) pointing out the specific sin of two men. Named them and EVERYTHING. I wonder why Paul just didn’t point them to the Word without comment on their sin?? I wonder why he’s actually telling Timothy about it rather than keeping it to himself like you said and pointing to the Word alone????
But WAIT!! There’s MORE!!
1Cr 5:1 It is reported commonly [that there is] fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife.
1Cr 5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
(GV) What happened HERE?? Paul (even in the Inspired KJV) is pointing out a SPECIFIC SEXUAL SIN of a SPECIFIC PERSON and doing it in a letter TO THE WHOLE CHURCH!!
Are you SURE you own a Bible?? Let’s get the Apostle John into the picture, shall we??
3Jo 1:9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.
3Jo 1:10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth [them] out of the church.
(GV) Goodness……..putting poor Diotrephes on blast like that to the whole church. I wonder why John just didn’t point them to the Scriptures instead of also identifying the sin of a leader here?? Boy, too bad you weren’t around to set poor dumb John straight.
Of course, Paul and John didn’t have the KJV like you, you lucky boy. Oh wait……they exposed these sinners (including a sexual sinner) in the KJV too, didn’t they?? Dragged out that dirty laundry in front of the whole church too.
Of course, we ALSO have Amnon’s sexual sin, DAVID’S sexual sin, the sexual sins of Eli’s sons, etc etc etc., Peter being rebuked by Paul in front of the assembly publicly in Acts, and then there’s THIS little gem:
1Ti 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
1Ti 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
1Ti 5:21 I charge [thee] before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
You better start reading that KJV of yours.
In the middle of this long rant he ask if Lawence is getting angry reading the E-mail, cause that is a sure sign that he’s about gone.
Question to the readers. After you read the good Passahs E-mail would you think he was angry or at peace?
Mr. Melvin, In reponse to your comments I have NEVER called you a disgruntled slob
(MN: Mr. Burnett, obviously you have not been doing the web thing for very long. If I leave a comment on your site you should respond to it ON YOUR SITE. It makes little sense for you to come here and respond to a comment I made on your site. I suggest you let the people who visit the dunamis2 site watch whatever conversation we are to have or simply don’t post my comments - as I see you didn’t.
If you haven’t the manliness to post my comments, why are you even bothering to come around here to try to respond. This makes no sense for a man who is smart enough to become a COGIC superintendent - something you appear to very proud of since you use it in your comments on your site.
Passah - go away. I’m really not interested in talking to you or posting your silliness. People can observe you as you make comments on the site you maintain. I gave you lots and lots of bandwidth and you did absolutely nothing with it except rant, insult, and make really foolish sounding statements.
Bye bye. )
What a Horse’s Posterior. He feels “led”by the Holy Spirit to “school” Lawrence, then proceeds to ignore the Scripture in his response. Now you know why he wouldn’t defend his trash HERE. He knows he would need Scripture to do it or get flayed alive (which was already happening).
Biblical ignorance………..it’s not just for heathen anymore.
Notice how Pastor Burnett equates “Spirit filled” with speakng in tongues by referring to those who question or disagree on the issue of tongues “NON SPIRIT FILLED”., thereby limiting the Spirit-filled life to a tongues experience; despite his previous assertion that the fruit is the real evidence. Then he calls Melvin and some others elitists because of their position on tongues. There is that 2nd tier saint ideology again.
Clever reparte and insults do not substitute for doctrinal explanation.
To attack his formeryl COGIC brother for not accomplishing anything apart from his fathers name in the COGIC smacks of self congratulatory arrogance. Where’s the humility?
Burnett quotes 2 Tim. 2:23 out of context because none of the questions put to him were unlearned or foolish. If he feels so strongly that Brother Lawrence is backslidden why doesn’t he act according to Galatians 6:1 and restore such a one in a spirit of meekeness (gentleness)?
I’d like to see Burnett actually anser some of the questios put to him regarding this subject matter and not merely say he espouses a less conservative view of scriptural interpretation.
The strangest thing is happening. Each time I click on the link for Pastor Burnett my computer goes crazy. The link will bring me to the page but then I hear these series of clicks like I am clicking on items with my mouse. I have tried several times to get to his blog spot but my computer just won’t allow me. Now I know this sounds like am joking but seriously I can’t get access.
I have come across at least two folks that I can recall that have reacted similarly as Pastor Burnett when someone dares to attack their pet doctrine. I wanted to try and understand where Pastor Burnett is coming from so perhaps I can learn how to address the subject in a better manner than I have in the past. I guess I should leave well enough alone and just say what the Bible says and if they bite my head off, they bite my head off. Oh well.
Oh, and I could not bring myself to read all of Pastor’s Burnett’s email.
To all,
I have had many experiences in the COGIC in the area of questioning things that the denomination believes. I made the mistake as a teenager of actually obeying the encouragement to read the bible. The problem came when what I read began to conflict with what I was taught to believe. I wasn’t saved at the time but I do believe that at an early age God began the process in my heart that eventually led to my conversion. (I know some believe that conversion happens at the very moment that God touches the heart but this is just my opinion). Anyway, even though I wasn’t saved my cognition of the facts was not hindered and so therefore I wrestled with harmonizing the two. You must understand an undeniable fact, a lot of what you believe coming up is shaped by someone else’s understanding. So even when you come across contrary infrormation, it’s not as though you can just put one belief down and pick up the next.
What Burnett seems to miss is that if he believed that his position held water biblically, then all he had to do was to lay out the scriptural evidence in a structured manner and then let the Holy Spirit do the rest. What I percieve about people that believe what he believes about their special connection with God through this “second blessing” experience, is that they actually get into the habit of trying to become the Holy Spirit for people. In other words, they believe that it is in them to convert, convict, chastise, instruct, fill, etc. No, you will not get them to say this but it will be evident in their actions. Instead of prayerful instruction in the areas of faith, you will receive the assumption laced insults that he spewed at me. (Just look at his post on his website about the incident and you will see so many misrepresentaion of me that it is laughable. For instance I never claimed in any e-mail that I had served in the COGIC for 30 years. I’m only 32 yrs. old.)This is standard operating procedure in the COGIC (at least those that I’ve had contact with). This is an attitude that we can all adopt if we’re not careful.
Their biggest assumption is always that you arrived at your understanding because someone (other than them) influenced you or deceived you. Now this is what you have to pay attention to because they don’t mind you being influenced so long as it is by them. Every COGIC teacher that I have ever had who encouraged me to not only read but to study the bible, has only themselves to blame for the fact that today I don’t agree with most of what they teach and preach. Burnett can’t blame Calvin, Edwards, or Melvin Jones for what I believe today. I’ve never read anything by Calvin unless it was someone else quoting him in their article. I did read “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God” by Edwards but nothing doctrinal of his. And I just happen to love Melvin so whatever influence he has on me came through his relating to me in love.
I actually, to a lot of people’s dismay and disbelief, have my own mind. There’s not a man alive that I agree with 100% on everything. (Though there are some 99% percenters out there. LOL!) I believe that my relationship with Christ is too valuable to leave to the interpretation of other men. Sure I do accept input and counsel from those who are wise. But to be honest, we select the wise on our own so it ends up being those who I believe to be wise. I just hope to be Holy Spirit led in my choices of whom to receive.
So dont’ be surprised or put off by the fact that Burnett chose to put me in the lake of fire rather than to allow his beliefs to be held up to the fire.
Good evening to all. Bro. Lawrence D., I am only 21 years of age, and am in the COGIC denomination right now; however, I am using my brain, searching the Scriptures, and questioning its history and some of its doctrines, and as you will guess, am getting blasted, called arroagant, disrespectful, simply because I am asking questions and for a defense of their beliefs, to see if it lines up with Scripture. I was wondering if I could get your contact information and talk to you sometime? Here’s my email address: Cdadvance2@yahoo.com. Thanks.
im living this too….i had my grandfather buy me the little black COGIC handbook when he went to Memphis….that book hasnt been revised since the ’50s!….some of the stuff in there is waaay off…..people want to hold on the “old ways” even when it directly conflicts with scripture…that drives me absolutely batty!
I agree with you djenk23. It’s all pretty crazy. It makes no sense how back when the Bible was being written those Bereans were commended for searching the Scriptures; now, you get blasted for biblically objecting to someone else’s conclusions. Can you shoot me an email and introduce yourself? I’d love to correspond with you.
Hey Christopher,
I sent you an e-mail. If you didn’t get it, my e-mail is lawrencedacus@aol.com.
The mess sadly got it’s start with Azusa, Azusa, Azusa… COGIC and AoG are Black and White respective racial offshoots of Azusa. Although now AoG (Assemblies of God) attributes it to sodomite (and free Mason) Parham more than Seymour, but Seymour was Parham’s student and started his road to bad doctrine from what he got from Parham. Then all that Parham’s White (AoG) clique claimed was revival of their own were dates well after Azusa, which is where the mess really took off and Seymour was at the center of that incident. I call it the Azusa Incident, not revival, because it was an incident. Kind of like a train wreck in the spiritual sense. There were elders of another church group that tossed Seymour out on his butt before he landed on Azusa street and good men they were to see through Seymour’s bad doctrine and REBUKE HIM.
And then from there came Wigglesworth, who led people to feel they lack “faith” if they take medicine and “they” rather than the person praying for them need an overwhelming amount of faith (not the mustard seed variety) or they will just be sick. No room for saying the Lord wills, in the twisted WoF world it’s YOU who will all with exception maybe of the planet earth spinning on its axis!
Test the spirits - Part 1 (Azusa 98)
IC wrote…….
“… in the twisted WoF world it’s YOU who will all with exception maybe of the planet earth spinning on its axis!
(GV) NO NO NO my brother!!! No exception even for the planets with the WoF crowd.
Creflo Dollar-“Everything that God has made. He has given man authority over His handiwork. [speaking in tongues] even the moon.”(ibid) “I believe with all my heart that those planets out there are just a bunch of unfinished work that God was designing for man to finish as they entered into God training 101. Now, let’s get back to scripture” (Our Equality with God Through Righteousness 1/21/2001).
Kenneth Copeland-“I am totally convinced that this is the reason that our surrounding planets are unfinished. I really believe that God intended for us to have a part in that.” (Kenneth Copeland Quotes “Believers Voice of Victory Program” week of March 12-16, 2001)
IC, you just don’t have enough faith brother…….God ain’t NEVER gonna get those poor unfinished planets done with unbelievers like you around.
I can’t even guesstimate the depths of their evil!
Well the earth wobbles on its axis, so I guess Copeland and Dollar (plus others into their heresies) see that as a flaw they will fix later
.
One more thing, “pay for your learning yourself..put yourself through what I had to go through to get the revelation of God..” Matthew 10:8 … “Freely you have received, freely give.”, 1 Corinthians 2:12: “Now we have received not the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from GOD that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by GOD.” also Revelation 22:17 supports the grace(s) of GOD are received freely.
If Pastor Burnett has some truth to impart he should do so without some imagined price affixed to it. His words imply that he possesses some deep “revelation” that one has to pay for. In what? time, sweat, fasting, what? All revelation (if it is revelation)comesfrom the HolySpirit and as a result should be revealed to the members of the Body. Either he is very angry or very ill informed Perhaps both.
Mr. Jones what is going on? You are 2 for 2 with pastors. Mr Burnett and Mr Smith. When you hold them to the fire of scripture they have a problem with you and the people that visit this site. The way that he attack you and the other on his site is not good. Why didn’t he just stop posting on this site and just moved on since he did not agree to disagree?
(MN: It is a curious thing. NO one makes these guys continue to come. And if you notice, each time they come back they get a little more obnoxious and attempt to be condescending. It’s always interesting to watch their typing demeanor change when no one offers to kiss their COGIC ring. I tend to get the same thing in e-mails. And you generally see exactly the same progression. )
Its sad that the pastors that may disagree with this site never look at scripture to prove or dis-prove a certain belief or doctrnal position.
Most pastors I know are quick to open up a Bible to compare and discuse the issues at hand. even if they think the topic is silly, they will say so and find scripture to back it up.
However these church leaders from COGIC,WoF, seem to throw Melvin ( and the rest of the Melvinites) under the bus before they can even find out his reasons for this site.
Its a sad state of affairs when your CHURCH LEADERS refuse to at least search scripture with someone who may be in error. Then when pressed on the matter it goes from “Bible study” straight to “You’re evil, touch not my anointed mess”.
I would think a person serving in the church as a pastor would have better people skills dealing with someone that questioned his direction. Even if they had some tought provoking opinons on how the Lord wants us to live, they wont stick to the issue long enough before loosing thier blogging temper and abandoning all issue of scriptures, and leave in a heated rant.
Maybe one day a pastor will come and shock us all and see past all the name calling and funny sarcasim and compare, read and reason.
THEY PERISH FOR LACK OF UNDERSTANDING.
(MN: I noticed an interesting thing at LSW Sr’s site. In a discussion with one of the commenters, it seems he was very upset because I didn’t respect his person. Interesting. )
You didn’t respect his PERSON?? Melvin, you mean you weren’t a respecter of PERSONS, treating the Passah differently than you would any other Borg on this site?? HOW DARE YOU!!
Oh wait………you were following Scripture. How fittng the Passah didn’t know THAT Scripture either. Nevermind.
Pastor Burnett,
I have an idea. Lets start from the beginning and let cooler heads prevail. Why don’t you give a list of scriptures to defend your beliefs. From there we can have a “civilized” discussion. Like I said on your site I was once a Pentecostal. I had been a member of both a COGIC and an AoG. However, I have come to my own conclusions based on prayer, scripture, and observation that gifts, latter rain, and new revelation was no longer valid after the time of the Apostles.
Now, this do