(Ready4Change had a somewhat extensive comment. I liked it, a lot. He did such a bang-up job of addressing much of the assertions of Mr. Burnett. As is my privilege as the BD, I decided to make it a post rather than a comment. )
Pastor Burnett,
Thought I would look a little closer at some things you mentioned. Hope you don’t mind.
PHB - “Even if you’ve never read their material, most commentaries and works available today actually reflect their work and interpretive hermeneutics vicariously.”
Quite possible. Did it ever occur to you that the reason for this similarity is the fact that most of what Calvin, Edwards and other reformers viewed about the gifts was based on scriptural exegesis and study and not experience? I suppose that you are saying that labors of those who devoted their lives to properly, prayerfully and rightly divide Hebrew/Greek nuances, other contextual evidences, historical data and cultural specifics have no relevance. Isn’t it funny how for any other experiential declaration we would all ask to see proof, but when it comes to proving spiritual experiences that someone has, we say “nobody can understand what God’s doing, it’s supernatural” and we just blindly accept what’s going on?
If someone says they won the lottery, met a famous person or visited a place that’s not commonplace for people lacking affluence, the first thing we say is “Oh yeah? Prove it.” There’s even evidence needed in a court of law to prove guilt or innocence. But because these things are “supernatural” I guess there’s no need to hold a miracle, sign, foreign tongue, prophecy or other extraordinary gifts to the microscope of the word. “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.” (1 Thessalonians 5:21)
PHB - “Most if not all of the reformers were Non Charismatic believers.”
I’m glad for this. If they were, we would be so much more confused about the gifts today than we already are. All we really have in the form of any type of explanation of the gifts from our “Pentecostal fathers” is their personal testimonies. I’ll share some snippets with you without posting the names, and you can research who said it on your own time. I’ll prove the point during the testimonies and at the end.
1. “It seemed to me that my body had suddenly become porous, and that a current of electricity was being turned on me from all sides; and for two hours I lay under His mighty power, and yet I knew I was not baptized yet, though I literally felt transparent, and a wonderful glory had come into my soul. Again on Thursday evening following, His power came over me, and I was prostrate on the floor for two hours, and still I knew I was not baptized, though I received a great spiritual uplift. (R4C , How many chances does God get to fill someone? Is He that powerless?) But on Friday evening, March 1, His mighty power came over me, until I jerked and quaked under it for about three hours. (R4C , Note these definitions of the words this “apostolic father” uses to describe his authentic Holy Ghost encounter. Jerk: To give a sudden quick thrust, pull or push to/to move in sudden, abrupt motions/to make spasmodic motions/involuntary convulsive twitching often resulting from excitement. Quake: To shake or tremble, as from instability or shock/to shiver, as with cold or from strong emotion/to move to and fro violently/to vibrate/a nervous shaking of the body.)
It was strange and wonderful and yet glorious. He worked my whole body, one section at a time, first my arms, then my limbs, then my body, then my head, then my face, then my chin, and finally at 1 A.M., Saturday, March 2, after being under the power for three hours, He finished the work on my vocal organs, and spoke through me in unknown tongues. (R4C , No interpreter. Tongues unknown to the speaker and audience.) I arose, perfectly conscious outwardly and inwardly that I was fully baptized in the Holy Ghost, and the devil can never tempt me to doubt it.”
2. “I pushed the chairs away in front of me and fell at the altar. And the fire fell and God sanctified me. The power of God went through me like thousands of needles. This tongue that never spoke another word but English began to magnify and praise God in another language. I was speaking in Chinese, and it was the sweetest thing I ever heard in my life.” (No mention of either an interpreter, interpretation or Chinese believers being present.)
3. “Do not attend here tonight. We do not have the power of God; let us go to Azusa Street Mission, where they are enjoying the presence of God.” (Sound familiar? Seems like there’s a lot of that going on today. “Let’s go to so and so’s conference so that we can experience___________(you fill in the blank). )
4. “I wish I could describe what I saw. Prayer and worship were everywhere. The altar area was filled with seekers; some were kneeling; others were prone on the floor; some were speaking in tongues. Everyone was doing something; all seemingly lost in God. I simply stood and looked, for I had never seen anything like it.” (R4C - “If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?” 1 Corinthians 14:23)
I know you’ll enjoy this last one. You probably know it well.
5. “I also thank God for ——–, who came and preached a wonderful sermon. His words were sweet and powerful and it seems that I hear them now while writing. When he closed his sermon, he said ‘All of those that want to be sanctified or baptized with the Holy Ghost, go to the upper room; and all those that want to be justified, come to the altar.” (R4C - Interesting. Romans 4:1-3, Romans 5:8-10, Romans 8:29-31, Galatians 2:15-17, Galatians 5:4.) I said that is the place for me, for it may be that I am not converted and if not, God knows it and can convert me…” “Glory!” “The second night of prayer I saw a vision. I saw myself standing alone and had a dry roll of paper in my mouth trying to swallow it. Looking up towards the heavens, there appeared a man at my side. I turned my eyes at once, then I awoke and the interpretation came. God had me swallowing the whole book and if I did not turn my eyes to anyone but God and Him only, He would baptize me. I said yes to Him, and at once in the morning when I arose, I could hear a voice in me saying, ” I see…” “I got a place at the altar and began to thank God. After that, I said Lord if I could only baptize myself, I would do so; for I wanted the baptism so bad I did not know what to do. I said, Lord, You will have to do the work for me; so I turned it over into His hands.”…” So when He had gotten me straight on my feet, there came a light which enveloped my entire being above the brightness of the sun. When I opened my mouth to say Glory, a flame touched my tongue which ran down me. My language changed and no word could I speak in my own tongue. Oh! I was filled with the Glory of the Lord. My soul was then satisfied”
(According to what you espouse, these other “fillings” referred to in scripture are not applicable for anyone who does not speak in tongues. Romans 15:14, 2 Corinthians 7:4, Ephesians 3:19, Ephesians 5:18, Phillipians 1:11, Colossians 1:9, 2 Timothy 1:4)
My point is this. Feel free to exegete (using standard interpretive techniques on the words of these people) any of these quotes and see if they line up with scripture. Since Pentecostals in general trace most of their church history back to the Azusa street movement and the Welsh revival, these are the types of things they have to work with. Unfortunately, many of these “apostolic fathers” depended upon more experience than scriptural understanding. So if the reformation has begotten those who critically study and test all things by the scriptures, then the early Charismatic believers have begotten those who evaluate their understanding of God from experiential data. Always dangerous, no matter how you cut it.
PHB - “I believe historical facts will bear out that Charismatic issues were considered to be on the fringes of Christianity during the reform era and basically DID NOT receive adequate attention, and scriptural concept development when doctrinal statements were developed and messages set forth.”
Are you serious? To say this is to say that Calvin, Luther or Edwards were not extensive in their textual handling of the passages that deal with spiritual gifts. Nothing could be further from the truth. Although they were cessationists, they did give adequate treatment to the text of scripture that concerns spiritual gifts, as they did with all other areas of doctrine and theology. You have a problem with their position on the gifts. Understandable. But you cannot say that they ignored the proper biblical coverage of them. Do I have to link you Calvin’s commentary on 1 Corinthians 14 to make you believe he wrote it? Luther gives more than adequate treatment to his interpretation of the function and operation of spiritual gifts in his sermon “The Gifts and Works of Christ’s Members”.
How could you dismiss Edwards’ thorough explanations in “Charity and It’s Fruits”, in which he competently compares the extraordinary gifts with the greatest gift of Christian love? I’ll give you a theologian that you missed, mainly because a greater emphasis is placed upon Calvin and Edwards, but makes this gentleman no less effective. Even before Edwards’ time was John Owen, who not only wrote a nine-volume reference work on the Holy Spirit entitled “Pneumatologia”, but devoted a whole volume in and of itself dedicated specifically to discourse on the spiritual gifts. I suppose I could go on, but this is enough to prove the point.
Besides, as voluminous as these men were in their writings, it still pales in comparison to what Christ and the epistles have stated in the Holy Writ. After all, that is the document of consideration and what it says concerning spiritual gifts becomes the authority, would you not agree? Since the gifts are “charismatic issues”, it would help if you distinguish between when someone is silent on an issue versus if they have given “adequate attention and scriptural concept development” to a biblical topic.
I think this could only occur if one actually READS AND EXAMINES the positions of those he or she is criticizing. Forgive me for making the assumption that because you mentioned that you were once reformed that you had at least read some of the above literature. Common layman/pew-member mistake. My bad.
PHB - “Show me any one historical document in which Charismatic issues, especially speaking in tongues, were addressed in a good light and I’ll produce 20 that minimized it.”
Well, I’m not a betting man by any means, but since we’re talking friendly wagers, let’s up the ante, shall we? Show me one Charismatic church that practices the spiritual gifts in a sound, biblically correct way and I’ll produce 40 that don’t even come close.
PHB - “Pentecostalism IS NOT an anomaly it’s just not taught by many conservative Christians objectively.”
Beg to differ. If we are now talking about modern conservative Christians, (specifically Calvinists, as you have suggested earlier) you really need to check out J. Rodman Williams, John Piper, Wayne Grudem, D.A. Carson and Sam Storms, just to name a few. If these are not the type of people to which you are referring, please let me know.
In closing Pastor B, what I’d like to see is much more scriptural text and interpretation in your posts, relative to the issue and discussion at hand (If you are still able to post about this topic. I seem to recall Mel saying your last post was the final one on this thread, or something of that nature). I’ll leave you with 2 quotes:
“Doctrine does not tell the preacher what to think, but how to think”. (R.E.C. Brown)
“Every real preacher is a theologian, for he proclaims the truth and shows the truthfulness of the gospel, the truth which is for life, the revelation of God in Christ for the redemption and perfection of man in the kingdom of God on earth” (2nd International Congregation Council)
P.S./ Kyle, I hope you don’t think I was trying to jump in or anything. Just saw that there was no response as of yet, so I thought I would address it.
There are christians that claim these strange experiences are from the Holy Ghost, which I have to say that I disagree, for I believe its a familiar spirit, demonic, strong deception, delusions.
Once I watched a youtube clip and a lady claimed that the Lord told her to make an owl sound. I could not believe what I was hearing, I said to myself that she can’t be serious. Then there is what they call “Holy Laughter” and I tell you when these people operated in this familiar spirit, it sound like the devil and his fellow demons were laughing with them or through them, but at the same time laughing at them, for accepting the lie. The worst thing that I saw in the clip was people in dog chains crawling on the floor. It was so sick.
Then there is the “drunk in the spirit.”
As a matter of fact, Melvin, I am going to try and post this youtube clip for you if I can find it. You have to see it; it is so crazy.
Its funny that the founder (forgot his name) of the Pentecostal movement rejected such gifts himself, even though a lot of his family and friends died because he did not believe in medical treatment for healing. It is said in history that he rejected the activities that took place at Azusa and called it demonic.
Anybody that I mat who claim to operate in a unknown tongue would always say to me “I have the Holy Ghost.” They say it as if I don’t because I don’t operate in such gifts.
R4C
WOW!!!!! These are all the issuse I struggled with for years before I made the change. Good job! That was a college level thesis. I am floored, and also very proud of you!!
All I can say is, that I am now going to shrink back into my little corner and read for the next year. I have seen some good arguements and defenses given, this is one of the best. R4C you have now made it to Monster Jr. status in my book, one more post like this and you will be officially a monster! Since we are in the spirit of quoting, I leave with this one:
“Finnniiisshhhh hiiiiimmmmmmm”
LOL
R4c,
Man whatever it is that you have been doing to bring yourself to such masterful handling of complex issues, all I have to say is keep it up! That was excellent! I wish I could post Passa Burnett’s response to me on my personal e-mail. You would see clearly who we are dealing with and it wouldn’t make you proud at all. R4C you are an encouragement to me brother!
Ask hom for permission and have at it. I will post it if he allows.
I have purposely stayed out of this because I found it so late in the game, and there was already so much participation. Good thing……….anything I would have written would have paled next to this. Excellent job brother!!
Ready4Change, as a reformer who sides with the likes of Sam Storms on the spiritual gifts (in that i believe they are still a part of the church today), i too am very against the Charismatic movement and how they make Christianity look like a drunken, disorderly gathering. It is precisely because so many Christians, even conservative reformers, repudiate the importance of the intellect (mind) in Christianity. In reality, Christianity is first and foremost intellectual.
It is a system of propositions laid out in scripture to which everyone who desires to be saved must assent. I hold to the perspective that once sound doctrine and the ministry of the word becomes the focus of the body, that God will once again move in power. You find that even by reading the book of Acts, the power of God was seen after the gospel was articulated in a comprehensible fashion. But one finds that behind the pulpit, this is no longer the case.
I was once at a college youth night a couple of years back at a COGIC and for about 3 hrs. people were at the altar wailing, getting “delivered,” etc., but the word was never preached. The preacher then had the nerve to say something to the effect of “there was a mighty move of God here today. The atmosphere is too thick to preach the word.” Such defiance and disregard for doctrine is one of the reasons the Pentecostal movement can be seen as false. 1 Corinthians 14:40 emphasizes order in the midst of the use of spiritual gifts, which is exactly lacking in almost all Charismatic churches.
Verse 32 speaks of the mind and how it is under the control of the one who is using the gifts. God is not of disorder, as verse 33 clearly says. Although I say unashamedly that God is absolutely sovereign, He will not in the midst of His people cause a man to stand up and speak a prophecy or utter a tongue uncontrollably. Many NT examples of such occurrences are demon possession, where the possessed has no control over himself. God, though in control of the rulers of darkness, does not operate among His people as the demons do among theirs.
The excuses, as you have acknowledged, that Charismatics always make is that “God washed over me and I couldn’t control myself,” and it’s so clearly anti-Christian since it’s anti-Bible. Before I get too carried away, praise God for your thorough analysis of false charismata. I hope that Azusa’s disciples have not made the rest of us genuine reformed Charismatics look like retards.
MAN…I’m certainly most honored…I reall don’t know what to say…I’ve been around for such a short time and I’m already on the chopping block…(LOL) Anyway, I think most of your questions will be answered here: http://dunamis2.wordpress.com/ and since I’m sure you’ll have plenty more, I’ll just come back here and answer them as I can. Please, from here on out, ONE issue at a time. I’ll get into the COGIC 411 but let’s deal with the empowerment issue first, if you don’t mind. Thanks and God bless!
(MN: I’m on the chopping block all the time. Have been since I started the site. And the questions come as they come. You don’t get to moderate them, just answer them or ignore them. )
Pastor B,
Certainly did not mean for you to feel like you personally were on the chopping block. Always understand though, that your words, just like the words of the pimps, are always up for trial. Yes, I did get a chance to read over your first installment, and no, many of my questions were not answered as you suppose. The paper leaves much to be desired in terms of biblical coherency, proper exegesis, contextual analysis and sound hermenuetics. However, as much as I would like to respond in immediate fashion, I will be limited in such a matter, due to the fact that I have some military obligations that will demand more of my time for the remainder of the year and beyond. So, even my posts and interaction on PP will be not be as often as they have been previously. Besides, my wife caught wind of this post, and has requested that I go easy on you. So, I will hearken unto her voice…for now…You can thank her for the small reprieve that you have gained…(smile). Anyhow, I will respond to elements of your paper as I am afforded the time. I pass the baton to my brethren (and sisters) on this site, as I am certain that many of them are more capable than I am to clear up this issue with you. I must leave you with a note of caution though, since you have made your paper available for closer examination and scrutiny. It’s found in Jeremiah 12:5. I’m just going to quote part of the verse, as it drives the point home. This by no means is to be taken as an intepretation of this scripture, just food for thought.
“If thou hast run with the footmen, and they have wearied thee, then how canst thou contend with horses?”
I’m just a footman. There are many horses on this site…
R4C
All,
I am humbled by all of your kind words!!! This means a lot, especially coming from people whom I admire greatly, such as yourselves. I don’t consider myself as astute as I should be by any means. If I can ever get to the status of a workman that doesn’t need to be ashamed, I’ll be happy. I’m just so hungry right now, and not to mention passionate about this particular subject…I do believe it is because I’ve been duped for so long, hoodwinked, bamboozeled, led astray and run amok (That’s from one of my favorite movies, see if you can figure it out…smile). My desire to make up for lost time and this voracious reading monster that just won’t go away (thanx for the promotion BAR), seem to go hand in hand. Keep praying for me, so that my passion for knowledge will be balanced and tempered with prayer, thoughtfulness, sensitivity to the spirit and all of the fruit that comes along with it, that I may be able to love God with all of my heart, soul, mind and strength. Also pray for my family and I as we endeavor to remain pimp-free…
Soli Deo Gloria,
R4C
(MN: I have the answer. It has to do with a speech given by a red-head. )
YES! The spirit of the prophet is subject to the prophet. You cannot claim to be completely carried away with no ability to control yourself and claim it is of the Holy Spirit. Paul likened that claim to the former worship inspired by demon worship, “carried away” is what he said. Hmmmmmm.
I enjoyed this, i grew up in the same type of gifts church, but i ran across alot of people that challenged me in the scripture and it being the final authority. But whats funny about the whole tongues thing is that everybody supposed to be speakin an unknown language but all i here are the same tongues, ( shondalaboseyhey) etc. So now they are familiar, im dyin to here a new tongue. Thank God for the truth and delivering from alot of emotionalizm.
Dominic, you are so right!
Why is it that all the tongues are “shondalaboseyhey”. No matter what charismatic church you go to, anywhere in this country, it’s always “shondalaboseyhey”. I too thank God for opening my eyes and delivering me from that confusion.
No, guys, sometimes the tongue is “Hyaboshi-yah” or “Heybybeybey-bobo”, you all have got to get out and around more! HA!
I think we should be careful not to mock brethern. We are to speak the truth in love and even as Paul is ministering in Acts 17, his heart wasn’t to mock them but to show them, error in their belief system. If you don’t agree with a prayer language (which I don’t) then I say fine. If you want to provide a hermeneutic on 1 Corinthians 14, Acts 2, Acts 10, and Acts 19, I also say go for it. However, mocking isn’t “speaking the truth in love”.
This is what causes divisiveness, not disagreeing but this arrogant undertone (mocking is arrogant). Paul encourages us to be patient with one another, and to encourage one another. Once again, if you want to refute the common use of tongues in todays society have at it, but this isn’t acceptable among brethren. God bless. (MN: Actually, I would suggest that error and those who would promote error cause division. Romans 16:17 says to keep an eye on those who cause dissension - and he wasn’t simply talking about disagreeable people. Jesus causes division based on who people say He is [Matt 10:34-36] )
(MN: Actually, division is caused by an honest disagreement with another. Jesus was divisive as will be anyone who stands for the truth of God. )
Thank you bringing up the point, Brah. II Timothy 2:23-26 is the standard we’re to uphold if we’re to adress those who oppose us……but this is rare……never mind James 3:13-18, which indicates being considerate/peace-loving among brethren as part of the Wisdom of God.
Even in instances where Jesus used sarcastic with his disciples (such as Matthew 15, where at one point he said “Are you so dulll?” when they weren’t understanding), people forget that there WAS A RELATIONSHIP already in place with them…..and the same with Paul, who wasn’t some joe smoe the Corithians knew nothing about but who encouraged them in his letter/past times, and was like a FATHER who had taken time to invest in their lives, 1 Corinthians 4:10-16.
(MN: But none of this is applicable for the men and women who would market the children of God and mislead them. Given the behavior and the insistence on staying in error [as supposed mature teachers of the law of God], I have trouble seeing many, if not most of the subjects of this blog as brother. As such, I take the approach the Jesus took with the pharisees and that Paul and the rest took with the heretics that were creeping in among the members of the Body.
As an explicit example, Passah Burnett, in his communications with Larry D has been quite caustic and has insisted on defending the COGIC foolishness over and above the testimony of Scripture. While I can’t say definitively that Passah is not saved, I can say that his fruit [even his behavior] is not consistent with one who claims the name of Christ.)
B&R you typed:
“This is what causes divisiveness, not disagreeing but this arrogant undertone (mocking is arrogant).”
(BLD) If orthodoxy (Biblical/Historical Christianity) is the standard by which we all adhere, then it would seem to me that those who go outside of that orthodoxy are the ones who are being divisive. The idea of a “second blessing” itself creates two classes of Christians. The haves and the have nots. Throw in the phenomenon of tongues and you’ve really got division in the body of Christ. Do the historical research and you will find that the first group of “second blessing” adherents didn’t believe in tongues. (John Wesley for example) When the “Pentecostal/tongues movement” came even the original “second blessing” folks rejected it. So the division was caused by them not us who hold to the bible alone. The idea of “unity” at all cost is unbiblical. (not that you were promoting that but it needs to be addressed anyway)
I would also like to have a little more clarification on the mocking issue. It seems to me that there are situations in which mocking is totally acceptable. And facing false teachers who refuse correction is one of them:
I Kings 18:27 “And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them (the prophets of Baal), and said,…” Would you say that Elijah was arrogant?
Proverbs 1:24-26 “Because I have called, and ye have refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; But ye have set at nought my counsel, and would none of my reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;”
Now of course, this is God and I know you wouldn’t call God arrogant and that you would say that He has a right to mock so that’s not the point that I am making here. But I would ask you to consider the reasons that He gave for His mocking and then apply those to people who insist on ignoring scripture. It’s not much of a stretch to see the servant of God mocking those who oppose God. (If you oppose God’s word, then you oppose Him!)
Right now the Mormon Church is making a concerted effort to have themselves considered “just another Christian denomination” despite the fact that they are wayyy outside the pale of Christian orthodoxy. There was a time when they were saying that they were the only true Church. At that time it was allowable to call them a cult and to attack their doctrine. Now that they just want to be included, you have some of the top apologist saying that the use of the word cult no longer “allows for dialogue”. Dialogue? Since when is “dialogue” the key to fighting false doctrine. Sorry but that sounds like the “Dialectic” at work. Now everybody wants to be sensitive to their feelings but even at these conferences that they’ve been holding down in L.A. to “dialogue”, the main complaint of the Christians that attend is that the gospel is not being presented and that the mormons are leaving believing that they’re ok and just another denomination indeed. That’s what “dialoguing” and being “sensitive” to everyone’s feelings will get us.
There is a tactful way to approach any and all confrontations and if we believe that we’re right, then we lose nothing by using that tactful approach. But again I must stress that we are in no way the cause of anyone accepting or rejecting Christ. Nor are we the cause of anyone accepting or rejecting truth. We do contribute and should be mindful of that. But the ultimate work, or lack there of, on the heart of a man, is God’s!
PLEASE Melly-Mel, spare me this {As an explicit example, Passah Burnett, in his communications with Larry D has been quite caustic and has insisted on defending the COGIC foolishness over and above the testimony of Scripture. While I can’t say definitively that Passah is not saved, I can say that his fruit [even his behavior] is not consistent with one who claims the name of Christ.)}
When a person, ANY person attributes the work of God to the devil it deserves correction and the utmost rebuke from any sort of spiritual leadership. In fact the Bible says that to do and say what your dear Bro Lawrence said to me and about the God of the Bible was called “blasphemy”. Now, you just encourage him and others to come into God’s judgment along with you, you’ll pay for it…By the way, didn’t you say “stick with the issues?” What are they now? What I’ve written is clear. Thank you.
(MN: What you’ve written is anything but clear. Even this last item is confused. I have no idea what you just said. What you’ve written in the e-mails is clear in indicating that you really can’t argue a coherent case. I think I will, since you gave LD permission, post at least one of your awful missives. They are breath taking in their arrogance, their lack of civility, and their lack of understanding of some of the basics of both Christianity and the Bible.
I shudder to think of what you are doing to the people who view you as their pastor. )
I backed off of my expulsion of Passah. However, in light of his continued silliness, I did not post his most recent, and mostly useless comments. If you want to read his posting on BOTHS you can go over to his site and take a look. You can even post comments if you want.
If I post another of his comments for this thread, I need one of you to hit me upside the head.
Melvin……..my Holy Ghost ball bat is at the ready. Fact is, he can’t and hasn’t made a coherent case from Scripture. He wants respect as a pastor and superintendent, but at this point it’s like giving respect to the superintendent of the Flat Earth Society.
This highlights what I’ve said repeatedly about the COGIC,and what folks like Burnett and LSW prove………ignorance of the Scripture and a lack of Biblical higher education are NO barrier to getting ahead in the COGIC. Perhaps that’s why they chose to affiliate with them.
Genuine tongues don’t sound like that. It sounds like a genuine language, even if you don’t know what it says. Many folk who say these “tongue” friendly phrases, from where I’m standing, aren’t really speaking in tongues, but are just caught up in a euphoria, to where they stammer and throw words and phrases together, because their literal senses have been deadened for the moment.
Now some of them are just faking because of peer pressure.
AMEN, that’s MY point in “mocking”. If I was convinced that what was happening was indeed the work of the Holy Sprit I would be reverent. Since it’s clearly the works of the flesh I (we) can’t be truly mocking. I can call it the work of the flesh because of the fruit is bears and the anti-scriptural operation of the alleged “tongue”. Question: Why do so many of these languages sound so similar? Why do classic pentecostals insist on exercisig this gift outside of the guidelines of scripture? Why are these tongues so rarely interpreted? (1Cor. 14) Why is tongues mandated in classic pentecostal dogma when the scripture clearly says the gifts are given “severally as the Spirit wills”? 1 Cor. 12:11. Why do they make a distinction between “the intial evidence” of tongues (Baptism in the Holy Spirit) and the gift of tongues when the scripture does not make such a distinction? Why do they ignore Paul’s question in 1 Corinthians 12:30, “Do all speak with tongues?” in insisting that all speak with tongues?
I do not believe the gift of tongues has ceased, I believe in the perpetuity of the spiritual gifts, so I am not anti tongues; I AM anti fake, anti false doctrine. “Therefore bretheren, desire earnestly to prophesy and do not forbid to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order.” 1 Corinthians 14 :39. Why do pentecostals encourage tongues without interpretation? Why don’t they insist that the exercise of tongues be done in the order Paul gave? Why is the wrong operation of these gifts considered “spiritual” when Paul clearly taught that it was a sign of spiritual immaturity to elevate some gifts over the others? 1 Cor. 12:12-30.
To disobey scripture is what causes division.
I a with the apostle whe he syas; “Do not forbid to speak with tongues” but I like he mut insisit on a biblical method of the exercise of the gift.
Watch Youtube Clips. Here they are Melvin conerning the gifts.I actually found them. These clips are in order from part 1-part 6. Enjoy!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-P1wFSDDJ4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kTP2btHTJ0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4slQaljds8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PFjFZ2jskU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sv6tT74Wc8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trWlVGTDILU
To all,
It’s a very weird and demoralizing feeling to have an “altar call” and to pray for folks to recieve the “baptism of the Holy spirit” and nothing happens. One old lady at my old church used to hit the floor everytime I prayed for her, but other than that, nothing ever happened. ( I know, some of you out there are going to say it was a lack of faith or some secret sin in my life at the time, but trust me, I believed with all my heart) One of the things that really got to me was ayoung lady that wept and prayed every week after church to recieve something that, we didn’t realize at the time, she was never going to recieve. I am happy to be in the truth now, and what delivered me was a “revelation” through the reading and understanding of God’s Word. And I am thankful for this site, the “Mitchell Report” of the church world!
Awesome and very thoughtfully well-written post, R4C!
I got to thinking about some people claiming to be “drunk in the Spirit”. According to scripture, it’s a sin to be drunk from alcohol. We are also told to avoid even the appearance of evil. So why would the Holy Spirit make someone act as if they were drunk (i.e., appear as if they were sinning)? (I’m scratching my head over that one.) Even on the day of pentacost when the disciples were speaking the gospel in “tongues” (in that instance, actually languages known to various hearers present at the time), Peter said “These are not drunk as you suppose.” He wanted to make sure that people didn’t think the disciples were drunk (sinning).
I’ve heard some charismatics use Peter’s saying “These are not drunk as you suppose” to excuse people laughing uncontrollably and wobbling and falling down in public. I’ve known some charismatics who said that after leaving a church meeting, they went into a grocery store or restaurant continuing to act like that. I can’t help wondering how that could help lead anyone to the Lord? It might draw some puzzled attention, but I’m not sure it would do much else.
At one time, I had attended a charismatic church for a few years, but I began to question a lot of things and eventually stopped going there. There was one woman there who shook intensely during meetings (supposedly under the power of the Holy Spirit), but I also heard her gossip about people, too, after meetings, and one time during a meeting, in reaction to something the pastor disagreed with her about, she threw a really ugly, hissy fit of a temper tantrum that disrupted the meeting when she didn’t get her way on the matter at hand. Reminded me of the scripture “You shall know them by their fruits,” and also “Love does not demand its own way.” One time she also claimed to have a “prophetic word” from the Lord, but it didn’t come to pass.
rev_ak,
My heart goes out to you, and that sister who kept coming to the altar to recieve the “baptism”. I was at a church here in Boston during a revival and I saw the most desparate people crying and pleading with the LORD to give them an experience. The minister was yelling and screaming at them to “RECIEVE! RECIEVE! and nothing happened. They were falling on the floor and crying. When it was over they went back to their seats defeated and guilty because they couldn’t recieve.
I just sat and cried my heart out, no kidding. I was sooo hurt for these people. This was an AME church, not pentecostal. This is what happens when you teach people to seek an experience rather than CHRIST JESUS. I pastor a church full of wounded pentecostals, who felt like 2nd tier saints, or those who got off into weird excesses, confused baptists who don’t know the scriptures and the unchuched..It is my delight to teach them all the work of the Holy Spririt from a biblical perspective. It is wonderful to see the peace that comes to them when they learn the scripture and not the twisted tradtions of men and the errors of false doctrine.
St. James,
It’s also wonderful to preach with that peace. There is a large weight that has lifted off my shoulders now that something supernatural doesn’t have to happen, and I can concentrate on the Word. I am a different, more confident (and happier) preacher.
I wish I could find a healthy, well balanced church that stands solely on Biblical doctrine. It’s very difficult these days because it seems most churches teach a heretical, pimp based doctrine (The ones I’ve been to, anyway). If there is anyone out there in the San Francisco Bay Area who can recommend a good, healthy, well balanced church, please help a sister out. (Please no tongue-talking-bible thumpin-bench-jumpin churches). Thanks!
(MN: Okay people. What about it? Any ideas? )
The folks over at 9 Marks ministries have a map of churches that hold to sound biblical practices (for the most part). You will still have to investigate (as I am sure you will) just to be sure they line up, but it is a step in the right direction and I would check a church out on their site if I were looking.
http://churchsearch2.9marks.org/?organizationId=
Healthy……….well balanced………San Francisco.
Why does that old Sesame Street song come to mind??
“Which one of these things is not like the others?? Not like the others?? Not like the others??”
Forgive me for an off topic question. I was reading some of the newspapers at standupministry.com and was quite impressed by their articles until I came across the January 2007 one. On page 16(I think), Rev M.E Carson is defending tithing. He doesn’t only believe that it’s still valid today, but in fact believes it’s something we will be judged on. When I saw that I was like, “finally I’m gonna hear somebody defend tithing”, but to my disapointment, no Scripture was used to support his view. Just the usual, “if you are obedient to the Word, you will tithe”.
My question really is why is it that even the people who normally stand for the truth on other matters just seem to forget that there is a word “exegesis” as soon as we talk about tithing??
That’s funny, I actually looked through the paper as well and found one article from the viewpoints of a pastor in error and a judge discussing tithing. However, the tithing was carefully explained concerning its Old Testament purpose and status today (that being that it is not required today).
Tongues still do exist today, as well as other spiritual gifts. In our attempts to become pure, let’s not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
(MN: And what, according to 1 Cor 12 - 14, is the purpose of tongues? )
To all who have been commenting on this post, just want to say that I have enjoyed all of your comments, and that they are right on the money when it comes to the misconceptions of the operation of the gifts. This is why Mel’s site and many like it are so important, because He is able to expose the pimps to a degree that our dear sound, biblical pastors all over the world are not able to because of their limited audience and pastoral responsibilities. Furthermore, what is discovered on this site allows you to really understand why it is so important that those pastors teach their flocks the word of God correctly. They have their part in the body, and certainly brother Mel has his. Anyways, I should let you all know that the terms for joining the Melvinite Temple are ridiculous. All he told me was that I should read my bible, study, pray and know why I believe what I believe. He didn’t promise me any blessings, supernatural healing or overflow. He didn’t even tell me it was my time!!! If that’s all there is to being a faithful Melvinite, then that means the only benefit I get is a better relationship with Christ, true spiritual growth and the experience of true fellowship with other believers. What a scam!!! I did read a clause in his bylaws that outraged me though. Did you all know that he told me that in order to get the Super-Duper Melvinite Decoder Ring that I would have to sow a seed of $1,000.00 instead of $500.00 because I missed the registration window? Some nerve!!!!
By the way, I must let all of you know that I have recieved an interpretation of some of the tongues you hear. Yep, fear no more, you will now be able to understand a portion the gibberish you hear in the local Charasmatic church near you. After you get this info, consider yourself fortunate, because you now have the gift of interpretation.
The Parishioner: “Icominahanda, levinatayata”
Translation: I come in a Honda, leave in a Toyota.
Reason: The parishoner wishes to let the saints know what mode of transportation he/she is using. This way, once they are too “slain in the spirit” to communicate, you will know who they are riding home from church with.
The Parishioner: “Untamabota, Retamabota”
Translation: Untie my bowtie. Retie my bowtie.
Reason: The Parishioner is requesting assistance with adjusting his clothes, due to the fact that he is unable to do it because of his “slain in the spirit” status.
The Parishioner: “Heyshandalaya. Shenomababamama”
Translation: This one is a little tricky, so follow me. Hey, Shonda’s a liar. She’s not my baby moma. Let me explain. The parishioner is expressing to the congregation that the girl who is accusing him of adultry is lying, and that the child she is pregnant with is not his. (That’s really in the advanced class.)
Here are a couple of more that you may hear, but the full translation has not been ascertained as of yet.
“Hacumanatata” (Possibly from a well-known film, and only properly interpreted by the tape ministry.)
Kikomondodeosha (Kickem’ up under the ocean. Translation uncertain)
Congratulations!!!! Your certificates will be in the mail.
“A merry heart doeth good like a medicine: but a broken spirit drieth the bones.” Proverbs 17:22
Thanks for the instructions, I wonder if they’ll let me stand on the pulpit next to the sign language person and scream out what the minister just said when they speak in tongues.
(MN: Either that or you can just let your fingers relax, then hold your hands up in the air and shake them around furiously. It will accomplish about as much as the tongues do. )
I once visited a Sabbath Keepers church and they would foam at the mouth, while speaking in so called tonuges. It was very disturbing to me. I had never experienced that. When I asked the “first lady” to explain that to me, she suggested that I schedule a meeting with her husband/the pastor. I was curious to see what they had to say, for which they said some mess about the body getting purged and a form of cleansing was taking place. A form of tarring. So that the Holy Spirit could reside within the body. I had a look on my face were the wife said, I can tell by the look on your face you don’t understand. I keep silent but the look was more so, these people have lost there minds.
People “foam” at the mouth because they are repeating the same words repeatedly, like “Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, or Halleujah, hallelujah, halleujah, furiously in order to be filled with the Holy Ghost. They don’t swallow and the saliva builds up and bubbles at their mouth. Try saying hallelujah for an hour non stop and I guarantee you’ll foamand drool gobs of spit too. I saw that many times in pentecostal churches. They call THAT being purged. More error, dangerous to believe such a thing
I have a question for Pastor Burnett. You said that God finished working on your vocal organs and you began to speak in unknown tongues.
Why do the tongues have to be unknown? Why does God have to minister through you in such a way that you yourself cannot understand? Is it that God really doesn’t trust your mind but still feels that he has to use you or what?
R4C,
You hit the nail on the head and through the wood on this one! The Reformers didn’t flinch on their beliefs (like say, Carlton Pearson on the Doctrine of Hell…) because they studied, studied, prayed, and studied some more! Living proof of which we can see in such historical events as the Synod of Dort
All,
In light of the nature of this particular thread, I just thought I would post something that I was reading which I found interesting, and I think it kind of sheds light on the definition of the Christian experience. I wanted to post it also because so many have considered the Conservative and Reformed traditions to be so rigid and staunch, lacking vibrance and enthusiasm, and nothing could be further from the truth. Although the writer brings this point out to highlight the experience of God in the Reformed tradition, I think it is also a good rule of thumb for all those who seek to know our Savior in a deep, personal way, but want to also make sure it is in keeping with the testimony of Scripture. The quote is from Howard L. Rice’s book entitled “Reformed Spirituality; An Introduction for Believers”, and it has helped me greatly in putting the evaluation of experiences in perspective. This is not exhaustive, but Rice details 4 guidelines to use when evaluating spiritual experiences. I’d like to hear some of your comments if possible. Mel, let me know if this is too long or takes up too much bandwidth, and if so, I understand. Thanks, O benevolent dictator…(smile)…
“In spite of the wide differences among people and their experience of God, it is possible to discern some common characteristics of spiritual experiences that are healthy and in harmony with the broad sweep of Christian tradition. These characteristics help us to measure our own experience and determine whether or not it is genuine. Those experiences which are not in harmony with these characteristics should be properly suspect; they may be deceptive, dangerous, or destructive.
1. The experience of the holy is ordinarily something that people do not seek out. It is much more likely to be something that occurs to them while they are going about some other activity. This is certainly true in the biblical stories of encounters with God. For Saul, the encounter with the risen Christ took place while he was trying to get rid of Christians. For Moses it took place while he was going about his work of caring for his father-in-law’s flock. There are, of course, activities that can make us more vulnerable and open to encounters with God, but we need to be careful about efforts to create such experiences for ourselves. The Reformed tradition has always been deeply concerned about the dangers of idolatry. Efforts to achieve special experiences for ourselves easily fall into the trap of being idolatrous. People can get caught up in the desperate need to imagine a god of their own and strive to make themselves have sensations that will reinforce their images. People who are overeager to seek out the unusual may miss the God of the ordinary.
2. The experience of God has the element of awe. In the scriptural record , those who have been encountered by God nearly always have to be reassurred by such expressions as “Fear not.” They are terrified by what has happened to them. They meet the holy God, and they are conscious of the distance between themselves and God. Moses must put off his sandals, Jacob is wounded in the thigh, Isaiah is aware of the uncleanness of his lips, and Saul is blinded. Whenever people claim to have experiences of God that are described only in terms of being lovely and wonderful and feeling good, we must ask about what God they have encountered. Calvin goes so far as to say, “Whenever the feeblest ray of the Divine glory bursts upon us, we cannot avoid being alarmed.” Without some sense of awe, the experience of God is reduced to manufacturing a convenient idol who can be easily met on our own level and treated like a pal. God’s powerful love is never a comfortable private possesion and will always include both a sense of inner peace and an uncomfortable experience of awe.
3. The experience of God always demands something of a person, and often that demand requires the person to accomplish something difficult. A reluctant Moses is sent to lead God’s people out of slavery. Isaiah is called to proclaim a message which he knows will cause him personal pain. Saul is required to become the apostle of the very faith that he has sworn to oppose and destroy. People are required to take up tasks, to make changes, or to let go of something precious. Any asserted experince of God that demands nothing and only confirms the person’s present life is certainly very different from biblical experiences. Emily Herman describes the aftereffects of what she calls “baptismal moments.” They are “always followed by a temptation in the wilderness; the unveiling of beauty always involves a stern ethical choice. Upon the seer rests the special obligation to be obedient to the heavenly vision, and obedience is not a natural instinct. It is a matter of long training and of continuous moral discipline.” God’s love reaches out to us, but not just for our sakes alone. It is a love that would shape us as instruments of God’s wider concern for other people. The key to a right understanding of all spiritual experience is in our obedience. Any other standard of evaluation of religious experience can be distorted or used for selfish purposes. Calvin declared, “Not only faith, perfect and in every way complete, but all right knowledge of God is born of obedience.”
4. Confirmation of the spiritual experience should be sought from others we trust. All of us need to have other people in our lives to whom we can turn for guidance and discernment about our own experiences. Because we so easily misread and misinterpret our experiences, self-discernment can be very dangerous. Many people have failed to distinguish between psychosis and what they have believed to be visitations by God. They have done damage to themselves and others by following the leading as they have sensed it. When trusted friends tell us to be careful, we need to pay attention. All of us need to have friendships in which we trust each other enough that we have the courage to share our experiences with the other. We need friends whom we can trust with sufficient confidence that we can tell them what has happened to us without fear of ridicule. At the same time, we need to trust their wisdom enough to accept that it may lead them to a cautiously healthy suspicion of our own interpretation of our experience.
These four guidelines are important for all people, because there is always the temptation to use religious experiences as a way to get something for ourselves and to gain new control over our lives. There are many self-proclaimed religious leaders who promise that if the hearer will only follow instructions (usually sending in money), blessings will surely follow and one’s life will go well. They promise that health, success, wealth and popularity are the results of right belief. This promise is very appealing, because it meets us in the midst of our universal human struggle. No one of us has life quite the way he or she wants it. We would all like to have things a little easier, for the pieces to fall into place a bit more neatly. At least once in a while we all wonder “what if” about ourselves. What if I had a better physique or were wittier or had more education? We look around at other people and they seem to have what we lack, and we become envious of them. That makes us all easy prey for the promises that offer a life without struggle or pain, which is a great illusion.”
Hope this helps and blesses someone as it has blessed me.
Submitted in all humility,
Soli Deo Gloria (For His glory alone),
Ready4Change