The phrase “Pay back is a son-of-a-gun” comes to mind when I think of the activities initiated by Senator Grassley. On the other hand, one of my favorite phrases (Government is Stupid) comes to mind as well.
As one who warns the public, specifically the nominally Christian public, about the pulpit pimps out there taking advantage of the faithful (even if the faithful are, Biblically speaking, sometimes a bit dense), it’s good to see that someone with a little influence is calling the pimps to account, or at least checking to see if they have done anything that may require calling to account.
If they are hammered, I think it will be incredibly ironic that they will have been hammered as a result of the same thing that proved to be Al Capone’s weakness , the IRS and income shenanigans.
And of course, this isn’t the first time a Mand of the Cloth has been examined by the IRS. You remember Henry Lyons? About five years ago he got in big trouble with the Feds. The charge? Tax evasion. And who can forget Jim Bakker, that fun loving pixie who apparently sold two hundred percent of some retirement homes. According to ask.com :
On December 5, 1988 he was charged with having illegally diverted millions of dollars from the PTL ministry for his own personal use. It was revealed that the Bakkers owned a 10,226-square-foot condo in Florida (which he called a “parsonage” with $60,000 in gold fixtures, not to mention the his-and-hers Rolls Royces. As a result of what he did, the National Religious Broadcasters adopted a new code of ethics defining proper moral and financial standards.
Keep in mind though, that the quote is from an atheist section of About.Com.
But I suspect the biggest difference between these events and the highlighting of the Gang of Six is the fact that law makers rather than law enforcers are going after these guys. And there in lies my nervousness with the situation.
As we all know, Congress has rarely stuck its nose into something without screwing the situation up. The more laws they pass, the worse things get. I suspect this will be no different.
Why is Congress bothering these people? If the Feds (FBI, IRS, etc) believe they have done something wrong, then the Feds should investigate them, gather evidence of wrong doing, and hammer them just like they would anyone else found guilty of tax evasion, sexual abuse, or perjury. I’d love to see Cashflow, after exercising his rights as a citizen, and receiving due process, land his butt in jail. I wouldn’t have a problem getting the real mug shots of Ken and Gloria Copeland, Benny (There’s Nine of Them) Hinn, or Richard Roberts and his wife.
But I don’t like the idea of Congress (bless their stupid hearts) sticking their pudgy and clumsy little fingers into church stuff. I suspect that whatever they may come up with would do as much damage to the pimps as it would to the regular Joes out who serve God. And I suspect it wouldn’t be too long before they decided we have to adhere by the same rules as other employers and all of a sudden, First Christian Church of Dirt Poor Texas would have to hire the flaming homosexual for the administrative job because it’s illegal to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation.
Some of you may think this is a stretch. But you have to realize that Government knows no bounds when it comes to screwing things up for everyone.
One bad apple, or shall we say six bad apples can spoil the whole bunch. However if they were to be convicted, old empires fall and more can or will rise up. When they couldn’t get Capone for racketeering, they got him for tax evasion. When you cannot get a ministry for fraud or running a cult, especially under religious freedom for the pimps and the sheeple, it would have to take something criminal to stick them.
If this remains an investigation into the true outworking of the “non-profit” status of these ministries, then I have no problem with it. However I do, along with you Mel, feel a bit suspicious because of the governments’ ineptitude in everything else that they do.
I agree with you that the mega churches are exploiting individuals. I disagree with your belief that Jesus is GOD. Jesus was a man that walked the earth and GOD is within all of us. We can not live by the a book the Bible that was written thousands of years ago and translated another thousand. You are just as fanatical as the people you are judging.
shay said ” I disagree with your belief that Jesus is GOD. Jesus was a man that walked the earth and GOD is within all of us.”
shay, please provide some documentation for your claim. If you have an issue with our claim that Jesus is God, then atleast we have documentation for what we believe. If you are just stating your opinion, then what you are saying is not even worth posting.
(MN: Tru dat. But I wanted to give y’all something to work with. )
I’m anxiously awaiting Shay’s (oh wait,he/she is God),I mean God’s evidence.
lol, melville- your attempts to use slang always make me laugh. tru dat, lol. my teenagers don’t even say that- they know they BET not let me hear it comin from they mouf. ya heard!
Mav’s Ebonics class meets the first and third Tuesday of every month. Sho nuff,
Truth of God, you and the devil are liars. let me tell you who Jesus Christ is-He is the Son of God concieved by the Holy Spirit and born of a virgin. He lived on this earth for 33 years and then He died on a cross for your sins and mine in order to save us from eternal damnation. (the lake of fire) Three days later, Jesus Christ came back to life (the ressurection) and 40 days later, Jesus Christ ascendend into Heaven and is now sitting on the right hand of his Father. One day soon, Jesus Christ will come back for those who have accepted Him as Savior and Lord. You sound like a new ager because that is the spirit that I pick up from you. Read your Bible and stop with this new age nonsense.
hi noni,
if i’m not mistakened, truth of God wasn’t denying the Lord- i think he was attempting to get shay to back up her(?) false claims. perhaps a typo on your part?
Noni, I don’t understand what makes Truth of God a devil. He was just citing Shay’s antichrist statement. Jesus is within his own, not everybody. Not everyone was meant to receive Him. I do agree with you that during His short lifespan, He knew His Father and still does and He came to be an example and a light, also died for His Christian elect. You have people who has lived longer and never knew Him. He shall return and yes, we should all read our bibles. Absolutely.
That’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard. God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are three in one. Jesus is God’s son, and the Holy Spirit is God in us. Anyone who says otherwise needs to pick up their bible are read it once in a while. Half of the people who complain about Kenneth Copeland’s faith message are people who are too lazy to pick up the bible and actually read it to find out the truth themselves.
Don’t get too upset. The clip producer was actually poking fun at the Oneness folks, showing how ludicrous their position is if you take it to it’s unavoidable conclusion. A reader provided a Oneness translation of a portion of John 17. Try it here.
During past research on this type of subject, a religious group in CA. was being accused of missappropriation of funds and was facing legal and civil actions against it…until they lobbied their own rep. to pass laws protecting themselves from such.
My point is, use of the gov’t is a two way street. If Mr. Money Bucks pastor who often IS often politically connected can use lobbying to get laws changed to protect his fleecing of his sheeple, why can’t the reverse also be used to protect the people from confidence artists?
About 17 Years ago, the local Ne Age movement was facing entertainment fees to practice their beliefs…”for profit…erm ‘donation’ readings of tarot cards and crystals and other such pseudo-religions practices.”
Louisville KY. wanted to regulate them and collect (for lack of a better word) Vendor fees.
This is what these people did for a living. They also believed it blended in with their spiritual beliefs and wanted religious protections (equality under the law) for it. Can you imagine those psychic hotlines being tax exempt and religiously protected ventures?
I didn’t follow the case too closely but reps from the ACLU and civil rights lawyers were involved.
Not terribly long ago, Christian Scientist took federal payments for ‘treatments’, what ever they do…or don’t do…to cure people until that was ruled against.
With some rabid forms of keeping the gov’t out of religion, what’s to eventually stop me from saying 3 Card Monte is my religious practice and cite some long forgotten pagan god of luck as a patron?
What about a permutation of Tugeeism and Kali veneration. I’ll skip the murder for profit part and focus on theft…it’s ‘religion’ and Hinduism is widely acknowledged with about a billion followers.
How about the FLDS permutations of the LDS?
Or, how about getting the Travelers more militant in their cultural beliefs…maybe form it into a religion. Wouldn’t be too hard to do.
What I see is that religion is (and has been) often used by confidence artists as a legal means to extort monies from gullible people.
And while claims can be made that they are ‘free-will gifts’ in psychological practice, with the level of unethical manipulative tactics, there’s really not much free will involved.
I see no difference from the man who goes to an old persons house, spills some oil on their driveway and then threatens to sue them for not paying for his services if they refuse to pay him (even though he knows this is a bluff) and the pastor who threatens to remove his supernatural protections from a person born into a movement if they don’t pay their tithes and offerings that he’s demanding.
One of my favorite lines for the Nick Cage movie Matchstick Men is ‘I never forced anyone to give me their money’.
There are laws protecting people from this secular abuse for a reason. Replacing ’secular’ with ‘religion’ shouldn’t be a loophole for the crafty con to easily use.
In the past, wasn’t Robert Tilton also found guilty of similar crimes?
I know many have a rqabid conspiracy theorists attitude against the gov’t. More so with religion. But, all the laws protecting religious freedoms came from the lawmakers…who came from the people who eleted them.
All this move seems to be doing is to ensure the protections instituted are being used fairly and not manipulated for personal profit by con artists.
of all the 6, in the past when I looked them up for financial issues, Only Joyce had some form of disclosure on her finances. In the mass media, often these listed pastors are focused on with their new ideas of prosperity with journalists questioning on who really is the one profiting from this new gosple. The layman in the pews tossing money at the pastor hand over fist to bless them and sow a seed for their own harvest that never comes or the pastor who seems to feast on the sown seeds in a fit of ravenous gluttony?
You know, I believe this is a good thing. Someone has to hold these crooks accountable and it’s clear that their boards can’t or won’t so somebody has to do it.
I guess we’ll just have to wait and see how this all plays out with the Sacrilegious Six!
Melvin I understand your reservations about what the government can and will do in terms of affecting those who are honestly carrying on the business of the church, but I would say we cant blame them.
It is the church’s failure to judge ourselves (in this case the 6 churches of major minor) and their wayward leaders. I think that God allows the gov the go ahead to “punish” and yes all will suffer behind it. It is an unavoidable consequence of not policing our own. I think it makes a stronger case for sites such as this.
You remember when God allowed the Babylonians and the Assyrians to haul off Isreal, the “righteous” were sent into captivity also. Their sins were numerous and they refused to hear, heed and change. (Jer 30). JEremiah was telling them not to follow the pimps, but all they wanted wanted peacce and prosperity. Today, these fits of excessive gluttony and binges of callous abuse of the sheep hurt all of us in the long run.
We all need to keep speaking out against this ungodly behavior and with all that we have, hold these people accountable so that God doesnt take judgment out of our hands and give it to some entity that will not care about how it will affect the church.
I hope I made a clear point.
Excellent points, Brah (& ironic that we’re back to the question of whether or not Government should have any involvement with religion, lol )
Some verses on what God considers of Government
A wicked ruler is as dangerous to the poor as a lion or bear attacking them , Proverbs 28:15
With good men in authority people rejoice, but with the wicked in power, they groan , Proverbs 29:2
When rulers are wicked their people are too, but good men will live to see the tyrants downfall , Proverbs 29:16
Where there is ignorance of God, the people run wild, but what a wonderful thing it is for a nation to know and keep His laws , Proverbs 29:18
While the institution of government is ordained of God, OBVIOUSLY God doesn’t approve of all governments, just as it was with Hitler, Stalin, Mao or Idi Amin or any dictator in history. They must live and rule according to God’s purpose, protecting the innocent, punishing the guilty and preserving the peace, so that we can live peaceful and godly lives in our country.
Also, We know that the function God has given government is the dispensing of justice and the restraining of evil (Romans 13:1-4)……& For God to demonstrate His justice in government, He uses godly men and women in government, to do His will.
Remember Rome? The Roman governors of the day began to appoint the early church Bishops to positions as judges, because of their reputation for integrity and high moral ethics. Rome became very insecure because their court systems became corrupt and the only way to correct this was for the Roman authorities to appoint GODLY men as the administrators of justice.
In England, we saw statesmen, like William Wilberforce , who led the fight to abolish slavery. Christians such as Lord Shaftsbury were also involved with correcting child labour abuses.
Also, it was Christians brought about reform to insane asylums where much injustice took place, t
Evil men, of course, don’t understand the importance of justice, but those who follow the Lord should be MUCH concerned about it , Proverbs 28:5.
A good man knows the poor man’s rights, the godless don’t care. , Proverbs 29:7.
Grassley’s simply another example of how God uses godly men and women in positions of authority, so that we may have a peaceful, just and moral society. Moreover, he’s simply an example of we’re to use government in the cause of defending those who can’t defend themselves (Proverbs 31:8)…and If the moral, righteous people of our country do not take their responsibility in government, then we leave the doors open for our nation to be governed by the wicked and immoral.
Melvin this stuff is getteing worse and very discouraging I am a pastor and I have become numb to so much now that I feel like walkign away at times. Please everyone pray for me. I am so grieved, the Bishop Hawkins that Paula White ran to in Texas is now under investigation for financial abuse as well as a sex scandal. Please check out this video at http://www.woai.com/home.aspx You will see where it says New victims come forward in church sex scandal. Everyone I do not post much at all I read on here and get inspiration but right now I am mentally drained. The gospel has been trumpled over by this foolishness. Any advice? Distraught
(MN: Not to be one to beat a drum incessantly, I still have to say: Don’t be discouraged. Part of accepting the idea of God’s sovereignty is knowing that He is in control and that according to Romans 8:28 He causes all things to work together for good to those who love him.
This isn’t just a verse the insensitive throw at someone who has lost a child or a husband; or someone who has just found out they have a particularly virulent and nasty form of cancer. It’s for the day-to-day living Chrisitian.
The pimps are going crazy? God is still accomplishing His will in our lives and in the life of the Church. He tells us we are to contend for the faith. He tells us we are to continue in His grace. And He tells us to fight the good fight. And we are to fight knowing that He controls all and that the hardships we suffer, the discouragement we feel, are simply aspects of growing in the truth and in Him. Take a look at 2 Pet 1:5 - 8. Without hardships, without discouragement to overcome, how would we grow. James that that we are to count our difficulties as joy. After all, how do you develop steadfastness if there is no push against your steadfastness?
As the epistle says: Be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might.
Okay - I’m stepping down from my soap box now. )
Melvin I need to speak with you ASAP. What is your email address
(MN: mjones@pulpit-pimps.org. Send me your phone# and I’ll give you a call. )
Melvin I need to speak with you ASAP. What is your email address
Melvin and anyone else that wants to respond:
Thank you for your input and insight man I understand what you are saying but right now I have been torn by what is happening so much that my brain is in overload. Are you saying that I have to b pushed and go through hardship in order for me to be developed?
(MN: Pretty much. This is completely contrary to the idea most of the pimps give you. But I do believe it lines up with Scripture. )
Ce
Pastor on the Edge
Ce, I would love to talk to you and hopefully encourage you brother.I also pastor and if I can help in any way please let me know.My email address is JCREP32@Juno.com.I will also keep you in my prayers.
thank you I will be emailing you soon
Ce,
Recently I lost my home, my church, my denomination, my grandmother, and a lot of friends, and a lot of pride. Remember, there is NOWHERE in scripture that says we will not go through trials, and in fact Jesus Himself said “in this world you will have tribulations, but fear not, I have over come the wolrd.” (Jn 16:33) In our pain and hardships, we are to be examples to God’s people, who could you counsel in their greatest time of need if you have never been through “the fire” yourself. God has broght me and my family “a mightly long way”, and I am back in a new Pastorate. I don’t know what you are going through, but be encouraged! Don’t let the wickedness of this old world get you down.
MJ, if he would like my e-mail, he can have it……………….AK
@Ce
I’m sorry that you feel discouraged. As a former member of a church that is also undergoing a “great falling away,” I can only encourage you to remain faithful to God and his calling on your life. Your members need the model of a Man of God who is sincere in his service to God and them. We’ve seen enough of “public pulpiteers” living double lives.
Although many of the postings address public figures, my former pastor is not nationally known. (However, if the news of his conduct is released to media, it’s possible that you all may hear of him, also.)
I attended my former church for almost 15 years. I watched the ministry grow from 10 members to 5,000+. I knew my minister and his family personally.
Imagine my horror, shock, disgust, and personal sense of loss to discover the ministerial financial impropriety and immoral conduct. Although I have found a new place to worship, it almost impossible to have the same level of confidence and trust. I often wonder, “Who was that person? Did I ever really know my former minister?” And even more confusing, “Why do people who know the truth about his conduct, continue to follow him? Why are they still there?”
So, if I could say anything to you, I would encourage you to remain faithful to God’s call to minister to His people. Sincerity, integrity, trustworthiness, faithfulness are all very important qualities for a servant of God to possess. Be encouraged and remember, “We are living epistles read of all men.”
Thank you so much for your words.Wow do you think thst as the ministry grows that these leaders get offf track easily?
Mr Ce,
Paul did encourage the saints to fight the good fight and that we are not wrestling against flesh and blood, but against principalities. The rest is in Eph 6:12. As a woman who is still struggling herself, and I’m sure there are many of us, I hope this helps.
Ce
Yes, sometimes, I think the rapid growth of the ministry does cause some people to get off track. (Because so many compare themselves to CEOs, think about what happens to a company when it explodes in growth. Some leaders, either secular or sacred, aren’t prepared to handle the exponential growth.)
I also think that non-denominational churches are at a special disadvantage when a leader gets off track. There may not be a system of discipline, censure, or even licensure. When the leader, who has been accustomed to making most decisions alone or with input from family members and close friends, is found in a compromising situation, who can correct him? (In the case of my former pastor, no one could correct him because “the board” was composed of friends and family members. There was no denominational board for oversight.)
So what do I think? Pretty much the same thing I shared with you earlier…remain true to your calling. Find a fellowship of clergy, perhaps through a local seminary or bible college, that can support you during this rough time. You may even want to look for a pastoral retreat. I think it’s pretty easy to understand that you have a challenging job. Everyone gets discouraged sometimes and everyone needs friendship, encouragement and support. Don’t try to go it alone…just make up your mind and heart to GO IT (in other words, don’t quit!)
I believe that many ministers should read the words that MyGirlBarbie has to say because if the body ain’t right, look at the head. Christ did not only come on this earth to die for our sins, but He came to be an example for us and to demonstrate what true ministry is. These words can allow a minister to take a long look at themselves and repent of this, if the shoe fits. However, if they don’t, then any sheeple with any spiritual discernment should leave. An apostate minister is no good to the body of Christ.
I believe as ministry grows “people” experience a greater temptation to align them selves with the moral codes of conduct and ethics of the true and living word. Therefore, what ever God is convicting a person of in their own personal lives, it is wise to adhere to the warn and change, what is in a person ” bad conduct, poor morals etc…will someway and some day find it way out of that person. God deals with individuals in private, when they choose not to adhere they - themselves brings it to the “open”. We should all allow the All-Knowing God to change us in the secret place….
(MN: Now - what’s your point? )
Servant, until (as you put it) “bad conduct, poor morals etc…someday find their way out of that person”, that person has NO BUSINESS in a pulpit. NONE.
The Bible NEVER gives even the suggestion that we should allow the spiritually immature,
or the carnal, or the heretic,or the wolf into the pulpit, then let them outgrow their “bad conduct and poor morals” while behind that pulpit.
1 Tim 5:19 Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. 20 THOSE WHO SIN ARE TO BE REBUKED PUBLICLY, so that the others may take warning.
21 I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism.
Melvin, that was an encouraging dialogue between you and Ce. While you’re helping one, you could be helping more.
Um….I wouldn’t hold my breath if I were you. This investigation will amount to very little and as much as I would like to see them held accountable for their greed and lust of all things material, I have this awful feeling nothing will transpire.
If proof were needed of their greed, just tune into TBN right now and watch that money machine go into action. Shameful……
Unfortunately,I agree with Doug that little to nothing will come of this investigation. But, as Mel says, it IS nice to dream.
Although I have never commented, I have been visiting this sight regularly for some time now. What I fear is that the wolves will start crying ‘persecution’ they will make themselves out to be martyrs for Christ, being persecuted by evil government, and the sheep will believe it, and come to their defense.
Is this the beginning of eventual persecution for Christendom? I don’t know, but perhaps we need a little persecution to remind us once more what it is to trust God, to be steafast, to have faith, and to pursue righteousness.
I believe the church in America is on the cusp of a great sifting, wherein the illusion that we have so craftily fashioned for ourselves, of opulence, excess and prosperity, will be shattered by the reality of this present age.
Melvin, thank you for what you are doing. Whether humorous, or forthright your posts are always insightful. May God bless you in all things.
Mike
MJ,
I think it’s a good thing to investigate the pimps; but your caveat about government is right on point. Not only are the pimps destroying large parts of the christian faith, but the end result of this will probably be the end of non-profit tax free status for churches. In my home state (IN) we already have to turn in tax forms every year giving the state our property’s net value. They have been seeing the lavish lifestyles of the pimps, and want a piece of the pie. The mega-churches will be ok, they will probably just lay off a few workers. ( like the lackey who carries and opens T. Dexter’s bible for him-what a job!)But the little guys out here like me will suffer. According to statistics, an average of 4 churches close in Indiana alone every WEEK.
I’d say the bible bearer is an unpaid volunteer.
A couple books I read once about Pat Robertson and Falwell by former employees stated that the average worker was paid low with the attitude of ’suffering to get the all important message out’. It was ’sacraficial work’… well, it was for everyone but the top dog and his family.
Also, I think I’m in your neck of the woods. If you could contact me on which churches you attend/ lead, I’d appreciate it.
Rev ak I could not agree with you more. I am truly seeing what you are saying is comign to past. Brother I think that what is going to happen is once they (Govt) gets through investigating they are going to come down hard on those of us who have 501 C3’s and will have more scrutiny into the tax base itself on how ministries do what they do.These jokers are not htinking about the smaller ministries only how much bigger they can get and how much more they can pump into themselves.
Ce,
It’s already happening. The Indiana Congress has been talking about revoking our 501 c3 for several years. We already fill forms called “property tax assesments” in which we have to divulge our net worth. Maybe the pimps will eventually get away with it, because they have star power. Just like Nicole Ritchie gets an hour in jail while the other average Joe’s out there will pay the price, the groundwork is already being laid. I believe in the future, after the mega-churches have swallowed up smaller churches, there will be a need for the “true church” to meet in alternative ways, just like this site. I am going to be starting cell churches within my congregation (as soon as we get a healthier , more mature church.) I know many will say “the gates of Hell will not prevail”, and I don’t mean to sound pessamistic, but that’s just how I see it….Thorn, if you were talking to me, Id be glad to give you my email….. (MN: BTW Thorn - if I don’t already have your e-mail, send it to me and I will forward it to Rev_AK. )
(MN: I’m not sure the removal of the 501 c3 is a bad thing. Given the slide of the government into a more and more ungodly direction and philosophy, I’m not sure I’m that comfortable with the government holding the threat of taxation over us. I think I would rather throw off any exemption, thus removing the ability of the government to silence us. If you are a conservative church and you promote a candidate for president, the ACLU comes after you like a a shark after chum. On the other hand, if a liberal candidate goes to a liberal church, they’re as quiet as a mummy. Some may take the view that church organiizations shouldn’t promote a specfic candidate. I tend to be of the view that they should be able to do so without fear of retaliation from the government.
Besides, (speaking as a person who has never, never, never pastored an church or run a church facility) the idea of taxation would likely begin to limit the size and sumptuousness of the facilities the pimps build. But that’s just my opinion.)
Melvin,
You are right on all accounts, but the flip side of limiting the size and sumptuousness of the larger monliths, is the damage that is going to occur to the little guys. I would rather do business as an LLc, and not worry about 501 c, but the truth is is that many churches cannot afford to add the cost of just property taxes alone to be added into their budgets. Remember that EVERY (501c3)church ever built in this country was built tax free. No one has ever thought about budgeting the outrageous taxes that would be levvied. Many older churches that have barely survived the “great white flight” to the suburbs, are in locations that that towns and munincipalities would love to confiscate (think emminant domain). I have only been in my current pastoratre since July, and financial freedom is on the agenda, but I don’t think we could survive the high rate we would have to pay. Also, If the gov’t did start taxing us, who’s to say they wouldn’t try making it retro-active? All this because the sheeple have made the pimps who they are……
Funny that you should mention the entire issue of promoting political cannidates in the church. I recently came across an article on the subject….specifically on why Government shouldn’t use the Church for basic “electioneering”:
http://projectfairplay.org/brochure/
(MN: Actually, all this does is emphasize why I don’t believe churches should have a 503 waiver to begin with. After all, how much taxes would the government want on a cinder block facility that’s good enough to do the job? )
you know i agree with you 100% Melvin. why do churches need 501(c)(3)’s anyway. when they accepted that status they ultimately accepted govenrment intrusion into their ministries. Did anyone notice that they already tell churches that they cannot be in the political arena by supporting any particular candidates. that’s why obama is keeping a distance from his “pastor”.
Actually, Brah, if what you’re saying is true, then it’d seem that there has been a GREAT AMOUNT OF CONTRADICTION POLITICALLY.
I wrote a post about the issue already ( http://emissary7.wordpress.com/2007/11/07/the-road-to-hell-is-paved-with-good-intentions-a-study-on-the-recent-situation-on-rick-warrenworking-with-those-against-the-faith/ ) but it turns out that Obama has long been lobbying churches under the notion that they’re working on adressing common issues (i.e. AIDS, etc)…..& no one has said anything about the church not getting involved politically.
Go here for evidence:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTfY2_ivYdQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEjdpqZZASc
Also, it appears that he has been rallying support from churches without any hinderances. Evidence:
http://www.christianpost.com/article/20071009/29641_Obama_Breaks_%27God_Talk%27_Tradition.htm
http://www.christianpost.com/article/20071018/29747_Obama_to_Throw_Star-Powered_Gospel_Music_Concerts.htm
“Embrace the Change! Gospel Series,” was aimed at boosting Obama’s religious black voters in South Carolina. The concert tour featured McClurkin, Grammy Award winners Mary Mary and Hezekiah Walker and the Mighty Clouds of Joy among other Gospel greats……..& though Barack may not necessarily be in a church when he sponsored it, it seems he indirectly used church support by getting ahold of the people the church praises.
The same thing goes for recent developments such as PAT ROBERTSON SUPPORTING RUDY GIULIANI:
http://www.christianpost.com/article/20071108/30010_Pat_Robertson%27s_Giuliani_Endorsement_Draws_Mixed_Reactions.htm
“The law that cannot be broken can surely be bent……”
(MN: I actually already covered this. Conservative churches are not allowed to get involved in politics. Liberal churches do it all the time, with nary a complaint from the press, the ACLU, or anyone else (except the conservative churches). )
How is the government destroying large parts of the christian faith? The true church has always and will always prevail! What happened to volunteer workers in the church? Pastors/Elders working to support themselves and the weak? Gathering in homes, community centers, YMCAs, and other free or extremely inexpensive means of fellowshiping together? Let us not forget that our kingdom is not of this world. The true church is not a temple/priest old covenant religous system. Again, NOTHING, will ever prevail or damage God’s church!
(MN: No one is saying the Government is destroying part of the Christian faith. Christianity will not be destroyed. We may become less “free” to practice what has come to be seen as Christianity, but no one is saying the Government will destroy us, any more than the Roman Empire, Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union, or Communist China can destroy it. I’ve just never been one to BEG for the opportunity to have my life made more difficult. )
Hey, remember thousands of souls are being sent to hell as a result of the WOF preachers. I believe the Lord is more concerned about them than a non-profit-tax free status! God will use whomever will stand of for righteousness! Let the investigations began. Add the honorable Bishop, Drs. I.V. Hilliard to the list. Praise God for His Faithfulness!
Yeah, I’m glad to see it, but you’re right. They will probably end up hurting the REAL Church, since they- and most- don’t know the real from the fake.
Or else, it’ll end up looking like the baseball thing, with not even a slap on the wrist for show.
At the least, though, maybe a few will let this cause them to question their faulty allegiances to these crooks.
It seems that the sovereignty of God and human responsibility are like two parallel lines that do not seem to intersect within our finite minds. God’s ways are “past finding out” (Romans 11:33), and the Bible warns us to “lean not unto thy own understanding” (Proverbs 3:5). To say what God says in the Bible - no more and no less - is not always easy, comfortable, or completely understandable. But Scripture tells us that the wisdom from above will be loving and kind toward all, seeking the unity of the believers, not trying to find ways to divide and separate from one another. May God help us all to love each other, to be kind, tenderhearted, forgiving one another as Jesus Christ has forgiven us (Ephesians 4:32)! In difficult doctrinal matters, may we have gracious attitudes and humble hearts, desiring most of all to please Him who has called us to serve Him in the body of Christ. Discussion - YES! Disagreements - YES! Division - NO!
Church Mafia:
http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=31611a5417e5aa8c3a1b
from a somewhat Charismatic perspective, but quite interesting
I worry about government getting involved with religion also. It reminds me of one pimp sniffing around another pimps women. Usually he is either trying to take over and totally get the other pimp out the way so he can get all the profits or trying to find a way to get a piece of the action. In this case I see a piece of the action. But whose? Grassley is not all on the rights himself lobbying all the jobs in america across the water, it makes me wonder what he may stand to gain from this and who he is in bed with in bringing these accusations. And ole anthony we all know him as a cultist out to find fame, especially in the wake of how him and abc botched and lied their way into so-called catching Tilton. I want some of these pimps to be busted for their wrong doing, but when one wrong doer tries to point the finger at another then it makes me wonder what situation came about that made you start pointing in the first place? What kind of skeletons are you hiding and who is puppeteering you to keep your skeletons hidden? Something just smells a little rotten in denmark to me. Just like religion has become big business, government and politics always has been. They are the biggest pimps of them all. And who could Grassley be trying to get browny points from, money, campaign contributions or votes out of? Just food for thought.
I think it could be bad for the little guy, our government/all governments crush the little guy when they slap the offender on the wrist.
As good as it sounds to finally have the law looking over the shoulders of the pulpit pimps, the downside of this investigation could be this: The six are legally exonerated, and come out with as martyrs with an “I told you so” attitude. Remember, each one of these has teams of attorneys working around the clock to keep them out of trouble–not to mention PR experts and crisis management gurus. Ultimately, this problem has never been a legal one at heart. Neither the law or the IRS say preachers should be husbands of one wife, not greedy, not manipulative, theologically sound, etc. In the end, the government just wants to make sure it’s getting its fair share. Thank goodness, even if these clowns are exonerated legally, they will still have to stand before a higher Court.
You know, what is interesting about all of this is the response of the Pimp 6. Creflo says that “yes, I live an excessive life” (which is a direct contradiction of God’s word by his own admission when God’s word commands us to do everything in moderation). Long feels as though he is being targeted….for what? The bible says that we must be “above reproach” and “shun the very appearance of evil” so as to be transparent. The bottom line is that they still have sheeple that will defend them to the death…natural and spiritual. God still gets the glory in all of this in that the words of the pimps during this time of exposure, reveal what is truly in their hearts, which is not the love of God or His people…and now the entire world is seeing and hearing all that we have known for sometime.
simply put, we are ministers which is an honor to be called so. Minister means God chose us to declare His gospel, not that we are above the law!!! If the law was broken than there are natural consciquences for that. If we speed we get a ticket, Murder merits jail time…Remember that God judges the heart and what is done in the secret God sees and our sins always finds us out!!!
However, if these ministers have observed the law and handled their finaces correctly, then they have nothing to fear do they? Read Romans, God initiates Government, authority and leadership for the peace and well being of humanity. I hate propserity gospel but at the same time we need to be concerned first with the heart then God is surely big enough to reach their: wallet, clothes, language and relationships. The gospel is the good news of Jesus dying so that the world/humanity can be resurrected with Christ and in Christ…ultimately at the parousia but here also!
Man looks at the outside but God judges the heart! Matthew 15:8 says, “This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with [their] lips; but their heart is far from me. ” (KJV)
also see Romans 13!!!!!
God Bless
Look at the tags on the police mugshots and imagine what could be ahead. They thought it was OK to fleece the flock in OK City. OK?
Just a thought.. I wonder why TD Jakes ministries was never requested to hand over infomation since the other big TV ministries were asked to do so.
(MN: Or why not CBN, TBN, In Touch, Junie B, etc, etc ? The list could go on forever. I don’t think there being asked is an indicator of guilt. Neither do I think not being asked is an indicator of innocence. I’m sure Reverend Ike has his IRS feces very tightly amalgamated the whole time he was in business. But that makes him no less despicable.
Beside, my issue with the pimps isn’t wether or not they are doing something illegal. It’s the fact that they are pimping the professors of Christ. And the last time I checked, that wasn’t illegal. )
To Melvin,
I read some time ago that MinistryWatch was after TBN.
Isn’t stealing a crime! These turnpike (your words) preachers are stealing the hearts of millions of souls away from the truth of the Gospel and our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Wow to them! Opportunities for repentence is only good on this side of life. God wish that all men repent and be saved.
MN: After Marcus made the comment in that he wondered why TD Jakes ministries wasn’t asked, you replied Or why not CBN, TBN, In Touch….
In Touch? With Charles Stanley?? I thought he was one of the few who lived a “plain” life….
(MN: No insinuations intended. I was simply pointing out that being asked didn’t automatically mean you were guilty and not being asked didn’t automatically mean you are innocent. Other than not standing by his word after the divorce, and insisting a person should tithe (and the fact that he appears on TBN/The Word Network) I don’t really have aproblem with him. I still want to be more or less like him when I grow up. )
I am an associate Pastor at a church and I had mixed emotions about this as well. I was happy that these extorstionists getting their due, however I was also concerned about the real churches being hurt by this fiasco. When I read the letters that were sent to these churches, if what they allege in these letters is true, things could really get ugly for some of these guys. But my opinion is how can you be upset or surprised with the government doing what it always does? They don’t care how you get your money, or where you get it from just as long as they get their cut. And these pimps were blatantly raking in millions and telling of their lavish lifestyles on national television and in print and weren’t giving the gov’t their cut. They really must’ve started feeling untouchable, but they didn’t know that the gov’t doesn’t believe in the scripture “touch not mine anointed.” (MN: ROTFLMBO ) The biggest issue that they have seems to really be with them not paying income tax. Not what they are doing to the people. So those of us that are in ministry for the right reasons will have to check our motives and our processes to make sure we do things in order, and “render unto Caesar” when it is appropriate.
The bottom line is it’s on its way. The whole faith based initiative thing was fishy to me from the beginning, as a way for the government to get its hooks into church money, and in turn everything else. After they get them hooked on the government money, there will soon be strings attached to it. At my church over the past few months we have been preparing ourselves both mentally and financially to at some point pay taxes as to never have to compromise. I just pray that God’s will be done through this whole ordeal. And those that truly have a heart for people will not be hurt or hindered by whatever the results may be.
(MN: I suspect that any bad that comes out of it will actually be good for the true church. )
(MN: My commendations. This posting is what I’d like to read more of from you. It was focused, relevant, made a statements, and didn’t simply ruminate. Keep up the good work. )
Regarding these investigations, I think there’s way too much emphasis on the negatives that could come about from it. IMHO, I think this investigation will end up giving an MARVELOUS opportunity for a demostration into what the true church of God looks like:
1 Peter 2:12-17
12Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.
Submission to Rulers and Masters
13Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, 14or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. 15For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. 16Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God.
In the case that government will use possible abuses as a way of slamming the ENTIRE CHURCH (and possibly doing investigations into GOOD CHURCES as well), those churches which are truly doing their duty will have the opportunity to shine/ demonstrate what it means to be GODLY STEWARDS OF FINANCES.
http://www.ministrywatch.com/mw2.1/Newsletter/MinistryDirect_November02.pdf
It’ll give us the opportunity to truly live by the Scripture’s admonition to be like “aliens” (I Peter 2:11) in the world and demonstrate what it means to operate according to God’s Principles rather than the WORLDY ones of greed & lack of intergrity all too familar in much of the church today.
Peter’s advice is much like’s Christ in Matthew 5:16, where He made clear that for tthose whose actions are above approach, even hostile people will end up praising God. Remember that Peter’s readers were scattered among unbelieving Gentiles who were inclined to believe/spread LIES about Christians…….but the attractive, gracious, and upright behavior on the part of Christians proved these rumors false and could even win some og the unsaved critics to the Lord’s side.
Also, when Peter told his followers to submit to the civil authorities, we must keep in mind the fact that just as today he was discussing a government that was CORRUPT and WANTING TO CONTROL CHRISTIANS. He was speaking of the Roman Empire under Nero……& yet he still remained positive on the situation.
Even if persecution arises from the investigations, there’s still GREAT REASON TO REJOICE. For in cooperating with rulers as far as conscience allows, the GOOD NEWS and GOD’S PEOPLE become respected…….and if we’re to be persecuted, we can all be at peace that it was for the fact that we were truly OBEYING GOD and not breaking moral/civil laws.
Moreover, sometimes we must become UNCOMFORTABLE BEFORE WE’LL MOVE. Discomfort may be best for us when we’ve either become LAX in our mission or God wants to work something new. That’s how it was for the early church, 4 the persecution forced them out of their homes & spread the GOSPEL (Acts 8:1-4). God brought GREAT RESULTS out of the believer’s sufferings…..& the same is the case TODAY.(Mark 10:29-31, 2 Timothy 3:10-13)
Amen Detroit. I am orginally from Detroit. I completely understand your thoughts. I have been thinking that the “true’ leaders or pastors shoudl try and ban together not to cause division but stand up and say enough is enough
I love Detroit. What team recently won a SuperBowl there?? Anyone?Beuller??Beuller?? Maybe IC can refresh my memory??
(MN: You see? This mean, in-your-face-kick-them-while-they-are-down-even-if-they-are-always-down attitude just proves that you don’t have the love of Gaawwwd in you. You need to repent of this behavior and love people no matter what team they support. )
HEY!! I never mentioned the pathetic Ravens or their embarrassing season. And I love IC as a Raven fan just like I love some poor deluded sheeple following Benny Hinn. God has blinded the mind of them both.
To Cushie, BAR, and Jcrep,
Thank you very much for your help and answers.
I know that this is not directly related to this thread (though, maybe this is the appropriate and only place to find a answer). Is Kellie Copeland (Kenneth’s daughter) divorced or seperated from her husband Win Kutz? I see that she no longer carries the hyphenated name “Copeland-Kutz” and she no longer appears with him in their ministry publications. Also Win Kutz no longer plays with the KCM Band in their meetings. He is a music producer in his own right. It just seems that if they are no longer a couple - the ministry has kept things quiet. I have learned in life that good can come from out of hurt if you choose to help, heal and go forward. I thank God for my wife of 17 years and pray the best for all marriages. I added a like post to the IC website. Thanks for any comments and answers.
As far as im aware they are no longer together.. and im guessing he could see this coming and disassociated himself from the Copeland Clan
i agree with Melvin,but i would like to add that when churches apply for that non-profit status don’t they open themselves up to scrutiny? i mean i have not read any where in my bible(KJV) that Jesus said go out and build megachurches, preach the prosperity gospel and by the way make sure you get that 501(c)(3) so ceasar won’t question your tithe(profits)s and how you spend them. i think t.d