Sometimes I get totally fascinated with an idea, an object, or a person. For instance, I attended a Baysox game a couple of years ago (they’re the farm team for the Baltimore Orioles). and I found the ability of the catchers to stand from a squatting position, and to squat for extended periods of time, totally fascinating. I actually ended up watching them more than the rest of the players.
Watching the a house fire or the aftermath of a car wreck is the same way. Even though you know you are invading someone’s privacy at an incredibly vulnerable moment, you just about can’t look away.
It’s the same with the pimps and their oft times willing victims. The unbridled pimping of the masses should make me look away, embarrassed for the pimped sheeple. But right now I am just fascinated with the goings-on of John K. Jenkins and New Behemoth he has nearly completed near Watkins Park, out in Kettering Maryland.
If you remember, a couple of weeks ago I told you that I stood in the school driveway to take a picture of the entire new home of First Baptist Church of Glenarden. Well, I was sitting at my desk this morning and I started to wonder “What does that thing look like from space?”
So I called Cloe at the Counter Terrorist Unit (CTU) in Los Angeles and called in a chit, asking her if she would re-task one of their satellites to take a look at the area around Kettering in PG County. Again, pay no attention to the “Google” watermark on the photos. That is simply to keep people from figuring out that I bootlegged the images from CTU. I wouldn’t want Jack Bauer to come after my lazy behind.
But take a look at the foot print of the church. I did a quick and admittedly rough estimate of lengths and it turns out that the structure covers an area approximately 325 feet by 375 feet. That’s 121,875 square feet. One hundred and twenty one THOUSAND square feet. My house is approximately 1600 sq feet. The old church on Brightseat Road is approximately 60,000 square feet. This monster is more than twice the size of the old church. To put that into perspective, it’s more than the length of a football field on each side! While I don’t think it is the purpose of a church to build housing, I am curious as to how many low income houses the materials that went into the Watkins Park Behemoth could have built.
Oh, and just for a bit of irony, take a look at the school across the street. With all the building structure, it comes in at approximately 89,000 square feet. I believe that puts the church at nearly 33% larger than the school building.
I’ll ask again, wouldn’t it have been better - more consistent with the Bible to break the congregation up into smaller packets and send them off into the various and diverse neighborhoods? You know - the idea of going out into the world (or at least the county) to make disciples. Instead, these men gather to themselves as many people as they can, from as far away as they can, building huge buildings and enriching themselves. Granted this isn’t an essential, but it’d be nice if he started somewhere.
It kind of reminds me of the Tower of Babel in Genesis.
What did God tell the inhabitants of the earth to do? He told them to go and fill the earth. (Gen 9:1). And to do that, they had to spread out. They had to go exploring and not just hang around each other. To obey God, they had to do some traveling.
What did the descendants of Noah do instead? They said:
“Come, let us build for ourselves a city, and a tower whose top will reach into heaven, and let us make for ourselves a name, otherwise we will be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth.” (Gen 11:4)
They were more interested in making a name for themselves and avoiding getting spread out than they were in being obedient to God.
What’s the connection between the Plain of Shinar and the Plain of Kettering?
If we are supposed to go out into the world and make disciples (not simply make a name for ourselves), wouldn’t it make a good deal more sense to train men at the Glenarden facility, and send them each with ten to thirty members to start a church ten, twenty, thirty miles away, than to have a killer entertainment…er…worship program and ministries to draw people to Glenarden from ten, twenty, or thirty miles away? Now, instead of having twelve or thirteen churchlets composed of maturing Christians in twelve or thirteen neighborhoods spread across the county, doing Bible studies, establishing relationships, and being a part of the community, you have a big clump of stupid sheeple who drive to the Mausoleum-in-the-Suburbs every Sunday, herd into the sanctuary, jump and shout for an hour and a half, and drive home to watch the Redskins lose another game that afternoon. You have a group of people who don’t know anything about each other or the folks down the street from the church.
Ah, but John gets to make a name for himself and the sheeple get bragging rights about their church building, their pastor, and the famous people who visit the church (folks like Stevie Wonder (not LSW, our friend at the other web site), various politicians, and fellow pimps like T. Dexter, Tim Storey, and Charles Ellis). And they get to brag about the basically empty programs they have. And somehow, Jesus Christ and His saving grace get lost in the whole sorry affair.
Building a huge behemoth of a church certainly isn’t the worst of sins. But it does provide us a look into the vanity most of us have to deal with, but choose to reject on a daily basis. Fifty-five million dollars for a building that does nothing to further the cause of Christ. But I guess it makes the girly-man deacons and the elders who wouldn’t know a principal if it bit them on their derrières, feel pretty important.
And the church organization gets to gather a bunch of people in a single place. This, of course, means the influx of even more money and a greater potential to enrich the leaders of the organization. Remember, they even call it a grand opening, as if it was a place to make money, like a department store, a restaurant, or a casino. I’ll bet your chances of getting a breakthrough are better at a casino than they are at the new Mausoleum, Museum, and Memorial.
Speaking of enriching, guess who lives in the house below.
The three-car garage with the upper living space is bigger than most of your apartments.
And before you even ask, here’s a shot of my house from space.
HOW DARE YOU MEL!! The Redskins are a great team, I pay for parking(10 to 15 dollars), Have season tickets (1500). They also invite players with high profile names to come and play. Dan Snider continues to promise the team will have a break thru and to help support him, he owns Six flags so we can help the redskins get better by having a great time at the park. I even watch all the away games on T.V. while wearing my Redskin jersey. I believe in everything he tells me I dont care what you think about the Skins….HUH!!! IAM BEING PIMPED.
COP……..I never thought of it,but Daniel Snyder IS a pimp
!!!!
I mean, every year he brings big names in who really have nothing left to offer just to get fannys in the seats (like the pimps bringing in these used up preachers to spout nonsense).
Every year it’s ALWAYS the Year Of Breakthrough………until NEXT year when it’s the NEW Year Of Breakthrough.
He’s got shops full of souvenirs for the football sheeple just like the Anointed Trinkets of the pimps.
He’s corrupted a formerly reputable leader by offering him a truckload of cash (Gibbs).
Yup……………he’s a pimp all right. You better stop sending in your tithes and offerings (Season Tickets and concession stand purchases).
To MN it would be very nice to see what you said to happen. For people to spread out and make disciples of men. But the pimps are not going to let the church building thing die it’s there only hold
they have on the sheeple.
Mel, we are here!…(waving the peace sign back and forth indicating we see eye-to-eye) You said a mouth full with your comment: “I’ll ask again, wouldn’t it have been better - more consistent with the Bible to break the congregation up into smaller packets and send them off into the various and diverse neighborhoods?” Yes, it would have been better. I said in an earlier comment “don’t be fooled into believing the Mega Church is of God”. It costs too much money to upkeep and more money is spent on the church’s agenda than is being distributed to help those in need. One asks the question: then how is the church supposed to be financed, the light bill needs to be paid, programs have to be printed etc., etc. The church itself is not supposed to be financed, the church is individual people (who work for a living), not buildings…you all know this! In most cases church collections in the NT were used for helping those in need, not for hoarding hundreds of thousands of dollars…millions…for the purpose of ministry extravagance. Christ intended for the church to be small assemblies doing ministry in the areas in which it assembles. I’m new to this site so I’m sure I’m repeating what someone has already said, but Acts 2.46 says: And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart. The temple was the central place for Jewish worship, but as the gentile church grew, worship was done from house to house.
You all have to go to PW’s website and see this angelic picture of her standing in front of a picture of the Ark of the Covenant, with the words “thank you for going to the mercy seat” in beautiful script. Is she actually suggesting that she’s going to the mercy seat on behalf of her followers?
Thanks for sharing, Brah. Very solid on many of your points…..
We are definitely in agreement on this issue…..
I gave up on Jack Bauer the day he shot Curtis. You folks might not know it, but Curtis had just wised up to pimp Fred Price’s game out in LA and left that club
.
Of course it would. Took me a long while to realize that, but hey, I’m the nut who stayed at a club like this for 7+ years. I’m the nut who on opening day was inside taking pictures that I sent to family and friends…but the statues and all inside were SO PRETTY
…
When I was in such a club, a former club member told me the Lord showed her she needed to leave the club. She did not go into much detail with me as to why. And I don’t blame her. Because back then, I was not able to grasp the problems at all. And this former club member knew it. But thank the Lord He helped me figure it out too!
And Melvin, when these pimps break things into “smaller groups”, for them it’s nothing more than the 1 church, 2 locations styled break, similar to a corporation with 2 large sites. They never really separate. Mt. Zion in Nashville, TN has moved up to the claim of 1 church, 3 locations and they’ve got kingpin pimp Paul S. Morton, Sr. coming for their “Super Sunday” on September 30th. Their ad says “Come Expecting a Miracle!” I say it would be a MIRACLE if Morton actually preached a message where he rightly divides scripture.
The tower of Babel analogy is interesting. Given big cities are usually the areas where the MOST REPROBATE activity takes place. Those areas usually press for the most abortion (they treat animals pretty nice though) and usually the most so-called “gay rights” to encourage homosexual behavior. Anything to keep population growth at a minimum. Don’t want any women trying to be like 1 Timothy 2:15, you know. And in the big cities, there’s always the MEGA CHURCH…
You forgot the part about waiting an hour in parking lot traffic just to get in and MAYBE get a seat with a good view, cause you want to feel that anooointing good :D, can’t get as good a dose of that dope in the rooms airing things on big screens, then waiting another hour in parking lot traffic to leave
.
Best case, the pimp and sheeple end up in Heaven totally bankrupt, 1 Corinthians 3:11-17. But this mess, like that tower could leave them in Matthew 7:21-23.
Looking at the size of his house, I suspect some street corner dope dealers are going to give up their current line of work and run into that building to stand before Jenkins and become pulpit pimps
.
I like Bishop Paul S. Morton a lot. We must be careful not to lump all big-named Pastors and congregations into the category of being a pimp and being pimped, respectively. Bishop Paul S. Morton is a wonderful man of GOD from my perspective. Let’s be very careful in our “discernment” (i. e. our wisdom AND perception).
(MN: More importantly Julia, let’s pay attention to what they say and do. Consider this article and dig around on your own.
Morton Info
More Morton Info
Even More Information - Event #3
Morton may say exciting things, and he may be somewhat limited in the blasphemies he spouts, but all in all, given the company he keeps, and the gig he has going, I think it’s safe to say the man is a pimp. )
Julia - The man is a pimp. Like you I once saw him a a great Mand of Gawd (along with the others) and then the Lord showed me that he VERY MUCH is one of the most dangerous pimps out there.
Please read the following in full:
Paul Morton is a Kingpin in the Pulpit Pimp Racket!
That’s why I keep saying his name. Because I know many people don’t understand just how much of a viper he really is.
You all can go to hell in a handbasket w/ gasoline underwear. For one if you going to make accusations have all the info. A few of these preachers you talk about I work up close and personally with and I know what the do. Now your opinion, you can shove that up your crack. And actually I am a lawyer to 2 of them so expect a lawsuit for defamation of character. Please leave all posted because I need to print this for evidence you b*******.
(MN: I should note that the e-mail uses “pastor” as part of this person’s handle. )
Tristen, Do the preachers you work for know you use such foul laugauge?
If you read carefully some of the post you’ll see that there are no accusations. In fact all of the information is from their very own mouths, websites, books and some (although all cant be certified) first hand knowledge.
If you are a pastor, maybe you should be a little slower to anger.
OOOOOOooooooo………..another internet lawyer who has no idea what defamation constitutes, what are the level of demonstrable damages which must be shown, that satire is protected speech, or that it must be proven that what is written must be KNOWN TO BE WRONG by the author in order to rise to the legal definition of defamation.
Tristan……….you’re a dork. Just shut up and go away.
ha ha, she said gasoline underwear. Duh, if she was such a big time lawyer, why not get the info copied before you tell someone ‘not to’ delete it? And oh my, the mouth on this woman, no wonder she is so close to the pimps. Birds of a feather…. Oh by the way, I love handbaskets, can I have one of yours?
Oh and uh Melvin, I guess this means you need to stop posting youtube videos of these folk speaking exactly what it is you are addressing. I mean really, you don’t want any real “Christians” suing you.
Tristan is a lying Sack-O-Dung.Period.
Julia,there’s noway to reconcile Morton’s associations with the Bible. To put a pagan, racist worshipper of false gods in his pulpit (one who denigrates Christ BTW) is inexcusable and reprehensible.
He violated the Word in doing so,and became a stumbling block. I’d be interested in your thoughts after careful consideration of the links Mel provided.
Who was the pagan I didn’t see him in the article did he let Farrakan speak or something?
Here ya go Danharr……..
http://www.pulpit-pimps.org/archives/2005/05/01/a-target-rich-environment#comments
Hey, here in Houston Ed Young has 1 church, 5 locations.
That pimp was just cited by the blog A Little Leaven, see Ten Weeks, Ten Sermons on Ten BUSINESS BOOKS.
You know these pimps grow Wal Mart style
.
That’s messed up an entire series on secular books.
Ed Young is another spewer of twisted Scripture. 1 church, 5 locations, and not one of them worth spit.
Has he moved from preaching in bed with his wife onstage to preaching with her in a Jacuzzi yet?? Then two of them could “minister” while taking a shower and the dolts who support them wouldn’t blink an eye.
Actually, would you please help me find evidence of Ed Young doing this?
I know he has used many illustrative things during his sermons, (& IMO, has had many SOLID teachings he has done) but the wife in bed thing unknown to me.
By the way, turns out that Mr. Young has shared his pulpit with T.D Jakes…..& he has also opened his church up to ROB BELL, who’s apart of the EMERGENT CHURCH dilemma—”the new cult of liberal theology”. Go here to find out:
http://www.apprising.org/archives/2007/01/ed_young_jr_has.html
http://www.apprising.org/archives/2007/01/ed_young_jr_has_1.html
http://www.apprising.org/archives/2006/12/rob_bell_and_th_2.html
Gary V, I believe that’s Ed Young Jr. that you’re thinking about.
My apologies there guys………….I wasn’t aware there were 2 Ed Youngs out there.
Ed Young please elaborate I never listened to him so I don’t know but I never would’ve considered him in you guys pimp category.
You know not all Wof’ers as you guys call them preach that by giving money your life will turn over like magic. Ministers like Dr.Price and Bishop Hillard tell you all the time if your not living a life style pleasing to God you can give your last dime and it won’t make a difference. On the other hand i’ve seen people say just give your last twenty and abracadabra your break through will come but I suppose it doesn’t make a difference to you guys. Cause this is one point of an over-arch problem suppose you’ll use that little levin thing on this post. I personally can’t say tithing has changed my life since other than tithing i’ve made strides in all other areas of the Christian walk but tithing is a good start imo at least till you grow up and can take the training wheels off and do what God would have you do.
Danharr, you’re straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel. It doesn’t MATTER if they teach you must live a good life TOO,they teach that God guarantees you WEALTH and that’s a lie no matter how it’s presented. They teach that men are “gods” and that’s a lie. They teach that the tithe is a mandate and that’s a lie. They believe Jesus was tortured in hell by satan to procure our salvation and that’s a lie. They believe that you can manipulate God by faith and that’s a lie. They believe that we have authority to speak things into existence and that’s a lie. They teach the “seed faith” heresy and that’s a lie.
The tithe isn’t the only subject around which their pimpdom revolves by a looooooooong shot.
New to your web site. It is good to see that I am not by myself if this battle against false teachers. I to attended a church here in pittsburgh (Covenant church of PGH in wilkensburg) under bishop joseph garlington. 3000 to 4000 members. What amazed me was that they had more than 1 homosexual pastors. also had a closed door policy, meaning you could not talk to the pastor but had to talk to an associate pastor first. broke everything down into cell groups 20 to 30 people to check out your commitment to the church and pastor. If you didn’t agree wholeheartedly with everything they said and did you were treated as an outcast. They also had false prophets(profits) come in from other churches. What caught my attention to this was the fact that three of them where related (mother, son, grandson) My antenna went up immediatly, thinking how god could choose 3 prophets from the same family. (Hmmm) Not only that, they built a new church, asking the congregation to pay for it. then 3 years later started to take up collections for a new and improved building. They now own about 5 or 6 buildings (for profit) I left that church and have had a very difficult time finding a church where they worship GOD and not the pastor. My studies encourage me though, because when I prayed I prayed for discernment, and that’s what god gave me. Now I can see these charlatans from a mile away. Remember this our people are like lambs being led to the slaughter. Don’t follow a man who is no different than you or I. None of these people have a better connection to God than you. They twist things up in order to confuse you, then they give you false doctrine to solidfy their agenda.
Roosevelt,it’s hard to find a good Bible based church these days brother. But it COULD be worse. You COULD be a Ravens fan. Thank God we still have the Steelers!!
MN:: “And before you even ask, here’s a shot of my house from space.”)
Are you serious, Brah? If in fact yes, call me up when you plan on having a block party………
(MN: Serious? Here’s a hint. Do a google map search on 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. Then switch over to satellite. )
A bit smaller than I’d hoped, Mel, but it’s still something to work with. Give me a call, & we’ll work it out…
MN your on point with this one………………
hay can we get some pic’s on the inside of your house
(MN: I’ll give you a ground level shot of the exterior. Click here. )
Melvin,
Do you ever invite guests over to stay in the Lincoln bedroom?
Kyle
(MN: Sure. But it requires a love offering of at least $10k. You interested? )
Dear Melvin,
I must cordially decline your benevolent offer seeing that the previous resident quite defiled the Lincoln Bedroom and the Present resident had Elton John and his er, um, uh Husband stay over.
Kyle
Kyle,
This is joke, no? Never heard of Elton John or his lover at the Lincoln Bedroom at all, but if you could provide evidence, I’d appreciate it…
GxG,
Actually I was just messing with Melvin about Elton and the Lincoln bedroom. However, it is true that Elton received an award on Dec 5th 2004 at the Kennedy Center. He did stay with his “so-called” Husband at the White House. It was often joked about on conservative talk radio that he stayed in the Lincoln Bedroom. However this can’t be corroborated. So the answer is YES he did stay at the White House probably in a guest room with his “so-called” Husband. Either way it is a disgrace that a supposed “Conservative Christian” President would allow such a thing baffles me. But then again Bush hasn’t really lived up to the afore mentioned title.
Kyle
To add insult to injury to the Body of Christ, most if not all of these modern mega churches are ugly as sin. For all the millions spent, the surrounding community doesn’t even end up with an architectural masterpiece filled with beautiful Christian art. We’ve got nothing on the old school European mega cathedral builders, just cheap imitations.
Moreover, the standards of the Mega-Church begin to spread out & influence other churches in UNGODLY PRACTICES, making smaller fellowships believe that they must choose to either become “Seeker-Friendly” or more like a CORPORATION if they’re to survive……all at the expense of SOLID THEOLOGY/Practice
Eventually, people in the Body of Christ are no longer seeking to work together (Ephesians 4:1-16) with one another but causing DIVISION because they’re BELITTLING parts of the body that are less noticeable, thinking “Smaller fellowships have NOTHING to offer”
Instead of helping other churches BUILD UP OTHER BELIEVERS, they’re instead causing other cells in the Body of Christ to WORK AGAINST EACH OTHER IN COMPETITION/SELF-EXALTATION (I Corinthians 12)
Also, the church itself becomes so enormous that one must choose to turn it away from the ORIGINAL FUNCTION OF WORSHIP & create funding through MERCHADIZING to keep things going, further INCREASING ABUSE & adding to the DRAIN ON OTHERS.
Ultimately, you end up with a Church that’s nothing more than a RE-MIX of WHAT Jesus HATED: A CORRUPTION OF WHAT GOD INTENDED FOR SO MUCH GOOD (Matthew 21:12-21, John 2:12-17)
Ditto on the thoughts, sis…
Churches like Glenarden are akin to cancer cells
All cancer begins as a result of abnormalities in the genetic material of transformed cells. & Rather than working in harmony with the rest of the body, the cells become aggressive, growing and dividing without respect to normal limits, invasive (invade and destroy adjacent tissues, or metastatic (spreading to other locations in the body).
Likewise, many mega-churches do the EXACT same thing………
Some begin with NOBLE intentions, but eventually become SKEWED in their efforts by DRAINING fellowship from other churches which need it, just as FRANCHISE supermarkets come into small towns & driving out local stores VITAL in keeping communities TOGETHER…..
They proceed moving to the other parts of the Body of believers, spreading WITHOUT RESPECT TO THEIR LIMITS, thinking “Everyone else should ADAPT TO US….”, when REALITY SAYS the church wasn’t DESIGNED to handle GATHERINGS of that MAGNITUDE CONSISTENTLY & EFFECTIVELY ( Acts 8:1-8).
For many mega-churches Believers cannot follow the Biblical model where fellowship was close-knit & EVERYONE was able to be accountable like TRUE FAMILIES ( Acts 2:42-47, Acts 4:32-36, Hebrews 10:24-25)
You must be pimping hard……………………lol
Um, hmm, this is gonna kill you (even more) but as a religious orginaztion, I believe they’re tax exempt as well.
Would you consider Apostle Kimberly Daniels a pimp?
How did Kimberly get to be an Apostle? I’m willing to be that she was not a witness to the ministry, crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ as were the true Apostles. See Acts 1: 15-26.
And since when have even been eligible for this closed office?
The last to see Christ and be picked by Him as an apostle was Paul, 1 Corinthians 15:7-11, 1 Corinthians 9:1-2.
All others who claim the title apostle and all others who claim they saw the Lord Jesus are liars. That means Kimberly Daniels is a liar, that means when G. Craige Lewis says God paid him a personal visit to discuss Hip Hop, he’s a liar too.
And you should be leery of anyone who claims they are a “prophet” or “prophetess” also.
To IC:
To be sure, I have two questions. Was John the last living apostle? Do some preterist use the book of Revelations to support that Jesus has already come the second time? Personally, I believe that He is still on His way because there is too much unfinished business on earth to call this a new heaven and earth.
If you want to know about the preterists and their false teaching, see The Preterists’ (Who Visit This Site) Best Shot.
John died (of this life) last.
to Angela Trent:Covenant Eschatology is not based on just the book of revelations, there are
over 100 time statements in the new testament supporting a soon-to-happen
time of events. If your interested in understanding Covenant Eschatology visit
http://www.planetpreterist.com
Look everyone, I was right! The preterist are from another planet after all! I knew it! (just kidding
)
To brother BLD that’s cool it got me LOL, I’ll say this for you boy’s jack nichaols quote in a few good men “you don’t want the truth”
and please don’t get so serious. You give hit you take a hit LOL. I hope this don’t set off no sirens in the futurist planet!!
IC,
To clarify, are your statements regarding visions of Jesus meaning that VISIONS/DREAMS do not take place today? And if so, what to make of the MYRIAD of testimonies from persecuted Christians in other countries who’ve experienced visions of their Lord either:
· Encouraging them in their struggles,
(MN: the Bible is here to encourage us in our struggles. Why do we need dreams and visions to do that? )
· Warning them of situations through dreams/visions, (MN: Warn them for what? If we perish, we perish. )
· Speaking to them on a personal matters regarding themselves or others they should pray for, (MN: The Bible speaks to us on personal matters. It’s good for training in righteousness, etc, etc… )
· Alerting them to a vital issue taking place in their communities, (MN: Involvement in the community will alert us. God (in His sovereignty) moving on people’s hearts, will alert us. )
Though SCRIPTURE, rather than experience is the standard, these are testimonies from people truly KEEPING IT REAL FOR CHRIST, as opposed from those such as Kim Daniels/others who may be questionable. (MN: They’re not keeping it real when they depend on dreams and visions. You can’t have it both ways. How many times does a vision or dream have to be wrong before the dreamer or the visionary (or dreams and visions) are to be discounted? The dream may match my interpretation of a verse (and thus agree with the verse), but if my interpretation is wrong, all the dream does is fortify a bad interpretation. Pentecostals run into this difficulty all the time. Some one stands up and presents a prophecy - the prophecy “matches” the group’s interpretation of a scripture. However, the group got the scripture wrong. Thus the prophecy actually disagrees with scripture. And if it disagrees with Scripture, it’s not from God. If it agrees with Scripture, then why shouldn’t we bypass the visions and dreams and go directly to Scripture?
Or let’s look at my old stand by. Yun falls asleep and has a vision. The vision shows that Adam was six feet five inches tall, blond haired and blue eyed, with a wicked surfer tan, a six pack that won’t quit, and shoulders as broad as a football player with shoulder pads. Does this vision then become the authority for what Adam looked like? It doesn’t contradict scripture so it isn’t automatically wrong. And if it’s from God, doesn’t it hold the same authority as Scripture? So which one do I go with? Do I maintain that I don’t know what Adam looked like, or do I insist that I now know what he looked like?
Your approach eventually deteriorates into exactly what’s making the way of the pimp so easy now. Nothing comes before Scripture. In general, our experience cannot be used as a lense in understanding Scripture. )
For a good example of this, consider Brother Yun, who is a leader in the Chinese Underground church & describes the visions he had when severely persecuted in his book “The Heavenly Man”
(MN: To the degree that he depends on dreams and visions, he is not depending on and trusting God. He is depending on and trusting experience. A Pentecostal Christian in China will be persecuted. But that doesn’t make their pentecostalism valid. It does, however, validate God’s gracious power in our lives, even when we don’t have it right. )
GxG said:
People claim visions of everything from dead animals they loved all the way up to Christ. It does not make it anything more than their own imaginations. Muslims, Mormons, Catholics, you name it all claim visions of whatever they hold dear telling them everything under the sun and even claim they saw things above and below the earth too.
I’m not saying miracles don’t happen. I’m not saying a guy who gets a feeling he should not get on a plane should not go with that instinctive feeling. I’m saying if somebody tells you they saw any part of the Trinity or claims they saw some biblical figures sitting down for a personal chat with them, you can run with them if you want, but I’ll be the guy walking the other way. If they’re not noted in scripture like the 2 witnesses to come that are noted in Revelation 11, I’m not buying it. No more than the kid who wakes up one morning and says he saw his dead puppy that he loved so much.
Even people in stressful situations like war claim various visions. If I stay up too late at night, I start talking about things that don’t exists, ask my wife, it’s usually a clear sign I’ve stayed up too late. She responds to my “visions” by telling me to go to sleep.
When I was very young I had “visions” that I was using the toilet late at night, only to wake up with a wet bed. I’m not saying this to be funny, but to make a point.
My point is that your mind can and does create things that are not real despite how REAL it might appear to the one having the experience.
A friend of mine once told me he had a vision of Jesus and his mother together and the Jesus he described was some European dude. (Classic Da vinci look.) My response, “hey bro you say you saw whatever you claim, but I don’t know about that.” And that’s exactly what I told him. If he were not a good friend I’d have told him it was total bull straight to his face, but being a friend he knew I was saying that I don’t beleive him. But you ask him and he’ll tell you today that HE SAW JESUS and my other friend who was his roommate at the time thinks maybe the guy did see Jesus. They feel I should not be so quick to doubt the claim. I totally doubt his claim as much as those of people I never met.
I have a serious problem with people who deny God’s presence in the world today through visions, dreams, other stuff. Why did Paul need visions, he had the Apostles. (MN: Paul WAS an apostle. ) Why did Peter need visions, he knew Jesus. In fact, why Did Jesus need angels to minister to him in the garden of Gethsemane, he is God. (MN: Surely you can see that each of these are unique circumstances, not to be looked upon as the norm? Or maybe you can’t. ) The argument is untennable. It’s so interesting because the Sadducees used the same argument to Jesus. They said there was no resurrection and according to Acts they dont believe in Angels and other spiritual entities. (MN: They denied the testimony of their Book. Jesus explained their error from their book. This was very much like the liberal christians denying the resurrection or the need to be born again. It’s similar to Pearson going around now and saying there is no Hell, despite the witness of Scripture that it exists, now. )They simply believed in the torah. (MN: No. They didn’t. As Jesus said, if they were children of God, they would have believed on Him. ) It makes sense that they would argue that God had no spiritual contact with Israel outside of the text of scripture. It sounds like you all are saying the same things now. If Im wrong, let me know. (MN: The only difficulty with your conclusion is that God had never pronounced continuing revelation as ending. Hebrews and Revelation say exactly that. )
(MN: Would anyone else care to address the rest of this. There’s so much here that I can’t even begin to think of where to start. )
Melvin,
Listen I understand your perspective. I dont believe there are any other authorities besides the word of God. Paul did not either. He had an Old Testament in possession and yet God did something that he did not expect. Jesus revealed himself to him, which, like other Jews at the time, was an unpredictable move. God still reveals himself to people which gets them to read his Word. Sometimes he has someone come to them. Sometimes he speaks to them from heaven. Sometimes they have a vision. But it all happens within the guidelines of the scriptures. It’s not just about the letter it is also about the spirit. Paul himself said the kingdom of God is not just word but it is also power.
It amazes me that folks stopped believing that the church still needs to grow. I mean that’s what you have to believe if you think God does not do signs and wonders anymore. The fact that we have the scriptures does not stop God from showing us more about the scriptures we have.
If we believe that God can “move” on our hearts to be saved, why don’t we believe he can talk to us to do so. Let me give an example:Acts 16:6-7 tells us that the the Holy Ghost did not allow Paul to go certain places to preach the gospel. Now, based on the scriptures in Matt they were all madated to preach in all nations. Im sure Paul knew of this saying Jesus.
But clearly beyond what Jesus said, God specifically did not want Paul to go Asia to preach there. Now, what has changed sense then. Where does God’s word address who I should preach to today? Where in the scripture does it explain what message Im to preach on Sundays? Im serious, what has changed sense the completion of the New Testament.
Just because the New Testament has completed does not mean that the power of God is unnecessary. 1 Cor. 12 did not tell us that these gifts stop when John finished writing Revelation. To interpret 1 Cor 13 to say that the gifts are done is a gross misinterpretation. They cannot be because of what will take place in Revelation (eg the two prophets). 1 Cor 13 says all knowledge will vanish away. It’s so interesting that people never like to extend that part to today.
If thats true, the way you’re interpreting it, then that means you might as well quit because you cannot know God. Anyway, the point I’m trying to make is that the power of God has not ceased. The belief in the loss of the power of God is the same belief in the Apostolic Succession. The Bible never says that God passed on Apostolic power to bishops. This is a belief that comes from foundations of Catholocism. I believe in God’s sovereignty, but I also believe in his immutability. He still saves people the same way: through the scriptures confirmed with signs and wonders.
And who has always been rendering praise to God in Heaven? Angels. So for them to come to Jesus makes perfect sense. What you think the angels were telling Jesus something he didn’t already know?
Regarding the apostles, unlike you and me, they witnessed the risen Christ and had a level of access to Him that we ONLY find in scripture. They also lived lives and did things on a regular basis that we ONLY find in scripture. They were very much the exception, for the establishment of the church.
Hebrew scripture made it clear that the Messiah was coming. It even makes it clear that God is triune, has Tri-Unity, is a Trinity. Once the Messiah came, the Sadducees did not beleive and they DID NOT KNOW THE SCRIPTURES, Matthew 22:29. Those who beleived were the people God called who were not hypocrites and understood the scriptures.
When I read 1 Corinthians 12 and 1 Corinthians 13 I don’t see a word about God providing extra-biblical revelation via “dreams” or “visions” in the church today. You act as if I need to listen to someone who claims a dream or vision, I say I only need scripture as the true guide and can ignore everybody that claims a dream or vision.
So let me ask you what I’ve also asked in another comment:
Please tell me where in scripture it is noted that after the work of Christ and the apostles that I should follow ANYONE who claims a “dream” or “vision”? Keep in mind, what was said in Acts 2 has already happened.
Hebrews 1:1-4, the Lord has spoken to us and His apostles as recorded in scripture. There is warning not to add more, Revelation 22:18, there is no command to seek more people with “dreams” and “visions” to listen to.
Revelation 22:18 cannot be extended to mean that there are no more visions and prophecies. I mean honestly, listen to this verse. It is more likely speaking about corruptions of the New Testament rather than dreams and visions in confirmation of the New Testament. Are you saying that there are no more visions of Jesus? Are you saying it is IMPOSSIBLE to ever see the Lord until the second coming? I guess you probably dont believe in casting out evil spirits. The problem I have is lack of scripture. You show me where it says in scripture that there will no longer be signs and wonders when Revelation is complete. The fact is that there is no scriptural evidence for this claim. What we do have is scripture showing that the gifts of the Spirit are for the whole body of Christ for its edification. Do we not need edifying any longer? Are there people that do not need salvation like 1 Cor 14 says will happen when we prophesy. I mean give me some scripture that explains that God no longer shows us his power anymore. The church is still the church and there are still supernatural signs that we are the church. It is not in word only as Paul said but in power.
MJASOG said:
2 things are abundantely clear:
1) Some saints don’t know what the meaning of new covenant “prophesy” is.
2) Given point #1 above, they can’t rightly divide Revelation 22:18 and this prevents them from actually getting to Ephesians 4:14 in their walk with Christ here on earth.
Prophesy today is the following:
1 Corinthians 14:3 ESV
Speaking words of upbuilding, encouragement and consolation does not involve foretelling future events. You need to understand, that old covenant prophesy included foretelling, which was to tell of future things to come in some level of detail. Today in the new covenant, prophesy is NOT of the foretelling type, but rather forth telling, which is to speak words from the Lord for upbuilding, encouragement and consolation. This does not involve speaking of future events, but rather speaking truth that is rooted in scripture.
I am saying that scripture makes it clear that Christ told those who would see him before His 2nd coming that they would and they did. There were others and those others are fully detailed in 1 Corinthians 15:5-11. Anyone making such claims today are liars, period. For you to beleive anyone is actually SEEING the risen savior in His glory now is to claim that we still have newly appointed apostles in the church today. Which is to say that Paul was not the last appointed apostle and validate the claims of false prophets over thousands of years. Meaning the foundation for the church still has not been laid, which is a lie. To claim otherwise means that we need MORE than scripture and must add to it. This runs a truck over Revelation 22:18 and we might as well toss the Bible in the garbage and follow whoever had the “vision”
.
Either you walk this walk by faith or you follow charlatans.
Melvin, I think this issue deserves its own thread. Something for your “future posts” list. Saints are in need of instruction on this issue.
Even the act of salvation causes the Lord to remove evil from within us. But this takes us outside the scope of our sidebar, so I won’t address this issue casting out evil spirits further.
What he’s missing is the entire point of visions……….either the visions are authoritative, in which case they replace the Word of God, or they are in agreement with the Word which means you didn’t need the vision anyway because you could have just gone to the Word to start.
That’s why Peter called it “A MORE SURE WORD of prophecy which he describes as Scripture in the next verses. In other words, you CANNOT be as sure of the visions as you are of Scripture. Therefore they are NOT authoritative and can only confirm what’s written………..and for the life of me I can’t figure out what good that would do since if you have to be convinced that the Word is authoritative via a vision, you’re not even a Christian in the first place.
We make a mistake when we take the Book of Acts as a template for the way the church operates today.It is not. This is how the church operates before the Scripture is completed. This is how the church operates when the office of Apostle is still functioning with the attendant signs and wonders.This is how the church operates when authoritative prophetic words were still needed in the absence of a completed canon. This is how the church operates before the knowledge that salvation was to be for all men (Gentiles and Samaritans not just Jews, which was determined by the outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon those previously rejected. This is how the church operates when external signs are needed to edify and direct the church because the Word was incomplete.
Since these conditions are no longer relevant today,why do we insist that we still need signs and words external to Scripture to guide us?? They needed them because they didn’t HAVE the Word. We do,and therefore visions are rendered non-authoritative and therefore unnecessary.
To IC and Gary V
To comment, that’s why people shouldn’t listen to Jesse Duplantis on TBN and even if they do, don’t take his visions seriously. That man has a truckload of visions to tell. Like his waterfight with Jesus and Him riding on the back of his motorcycle, right Gary V ?and Brooks mentioned that recently, he said Jesus would wear a rolex or He worn one. Duplantis and a lot of heretics like him railroad Rev 22:18 all the time.
You know it Angela………..Jesse is either a compulsive liar, or he’s delusional, or he’s demonized and therefore unsaved. Those are the only 3 options I can come up with.
These are people who are hungry for the Word & who SUBMIT TO IT AS THE FINAL AUTHORITY …… & if I’m not mistaken, I don’t see anywhere in Scripture clearly saying God doesn’t speak in DREAMS/VISIONS on things anymore. (MN: No, they don’t submit to Scripture as the final authority. They submit to their dreams and visions as their final authority.
If anything, it’d seem that Joel 2:28-29 still stands, especially seeing it was said to happen in the last days (Acts 2:14-41), which include all the days between Christ’s first coming & second comings—simply another way of saying “from now on”……& “the great & glorious day of the Lord” (Acts 2:20) denotes the WHOLE CHURCH AGE.
(MN: Correct me if I am wrong, but Peter said that that which was happening RIGHT THEN was referred to by Joel, not something that happens 2000 years later. He says:
Again, that which happend on the day of Pentecost and following in Acts, was a fulfillment of Joel, not some mystical dreams and visions that people experience today. )
MN: “Correct me if I am wrong, but Peter said that that which was happening RIGHT THEN was referred to by Joel, not something that happens 2000 years later”)
Cool, Brah…..but then again, you’d also have to account for everything else mentioned in Joel 2:28-29 that DID NOT TAKE PLACE THAT MORNING to be consistent……
SIGNS & WONDERS IN THE SKY weren’t apparent, nor was it in the sun turning to darkness…
DOESN’T seem one can logically & sufficiently address Joel 2:28-29 without believing those things Jude mentioned were meant not only for that period. If it was for that time only, how to go about solving it other than through subjective “Pick n’ Choose” methodology?
(MN: That is a separate issue. Besides, who said all of it has to happen all at once? It only has to happen during the last days. Notice Peter called THAT DAY a part of the last days. As a result, every day from then till the end is a part of the last days, including today.
The physical events have nothing to do with dreams and visions. And there is nothing that argues against a partial fulfillment then (dreams and visions) and the physical events (dark sun, etc) near the close of the age. I don’t present this as an airtight argument, and I’m not trying to. You have to demonstrate the value of dreams and visions [direct communications from God, according to the proponents] and how they mesh with the authroity of Scripture. So far, you haven’t.
Remember, I’m a dispensationalist. I don’t have a problem with two-part fulfillments. Especially when we look at the prophets and the as they talk about Jesus’ initial arrival as a servant and His return as the King. Once could conclude from what they presented, that Jesus was supposed to be revealed as King the first time He was here. But that was not so. )
Melvin you were on a roll, don’t hedge now by saying “I don’t present this as an airtight argument,” IT IS THE AIRTIGHT ARGUMENT!!!
Acts 2 was partial fulfillment of Joel 2:28-32. The part about the sun Christ noted will not happen till near when He returns, Matthew 24:29-31. You want blood, it’s noted that will come from one of the two witnesses in Revelation 11 and they’ve got the fire too! How that fire will actually manifest from their mouths remains to be seen.
If this is not happening in pieces, than Melvin you’re 100% correct about the prophesies regarding Christ. If those all had to happen at the same time, we’re all wrong, need to go commit to following the Torah and help all the Jews get a spot in Israel. But we know the Lord Jesus Christ gave true testimony of the Father and is His Only Begotten Son.
Don’t get me wrong, for I agree that many of the visions that people claim to have are WAYYYYYY out there.
But I think it can be dangerous to say “ALL OTHERS (including the ones who are SOLID in their faiths) claiming to see Jesus are liars”, when no one can prove that.
(MN: They’re not solid in their faith if they depend on dreams and visions. But I doubt that any argument would be able to convince you since you keep putting dreams and visions up as a way for God to communicate to us. Your involvement in a Pentecostal denomination doesn’t help. )