(MN: Actually, no. God was responsible for saving people. Maybe Graham has been more faithful in obeying God. Maybe. )

One thing we here recognize is that God is our provider but more importantly our Lord. In all honesty many of us especially in the West have been blessed. We have cars, homes, clothing, food, etc, etc. We specifically here on PP recognize first and foremost however that regardless of what we have been blessed with God is still sovereign and if one day everything we had vanished we would still praise his holy and righteous name even if we wound up penniless and on the street.(God forbid of course) Moving on. God requires our worship of Him. He is holy and true. We are to read our word and draw closer to him. We also must die daily to our carnal and inherently evil selves. Now lets look at the Pimps in light of what I just said. Their focus is strictly on material wealth. They DO NOT worship God as Lord but rather expect him to provide ALL WORLDY WANTS AND NEEDS with no true worship in return. Now lets look at Romans 1: 24-32

24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:
25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.
28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

From the onset we recognize that these people have been handed over to a reprobate mind because of their worship of the creature, meaning mankind, idols, materialism, etc etc. In other words that which was “created” encompassing many things rather than the creator. Once this happens we notice that sexual depravity is one of the main results. We have seen Paul Crouch, Jim bakker, and Ted Haggard have been outright accused of Homosexuality. Others like Bishop Weeks have been speculated to have been involved in this lifestyle. Also, one of the reasons Randy White and Paula are getting a divorce is because of the many women Randy has been seen with. Lastly, many speculations regarding other Pimps of infidelity have surfaced here. Clearly sexual misgivings of many sorts arise from these people and are clear examples of people of a reprobate mind. Now lets look at some of the other attributes of these people in light of Romans. Covenant Breakers- Paula White reneging on a house. Proud, Boasters- All Pimps flaunt what they have. Inventors of evil things- Look at the comments Paul Crouch made regarding people questioning him. What about Hinns comments applying a curse of death to anyone who comes against his ministry. Covetousness-All Pimps try to out do the next PImp with a bigger plane or bigger house. I could list the rest but lets move onto the end of the verse regarding, “Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them”. By the example we see that not only are the Pimps aware of their Judgment but actually take pleasure in others who do what they do hence their love for other Pimps. So clearly by the above example we see that Pimps do not “Worship” God as described in the Bible YET they claim to. Clearly however by the attributes described in the afore mentioned verses they are worshiping something i.e. something created.

Moving on to Mathew. Let us look at Mathew 4: 8-10.

8Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

As we can see by the scripture verses Satan is the one who offered the “things” of this world to Jesus as long as he worshiped him. These same Pimps are the ones who worship a created being (Satan) rather than the Creator (God) resulting in them taking the offer as described in Mathew 4: 9. This is why they can justify all the earthly things they posses yet at the same time have all the attributes prescribed to them in Romans. In summary they clearly worship the Devil (Romans 1: 25 & Mathew 4: 9) which provides them with material wealth of the world and the proof of that is the attributes assigned to them as described in Romans 1: 26-31 resulting in their inevitable Judgment(Romans 1: 32) The reason I mention this is because we oftentimes over look the serious nature of this blight on Christianity. It is one thing to have debate over differences like tithe, eternal salvation, preterist, etc, etc. But this (Pimping) on the other hand is not a difference of scripture interpretation but is rather not even of God. It is the lie of the Devil carefully masked in Christianity. We have seen from the mere two references above that people in the Pimp game are not even of God. The Bibles, crosses, Churches, and TV ministries are smoke and mirrors to what they really are which is nothing more than a cleverly devised front for the Devil.

Kyle

You haven’t noticed but in order to continue a defense or promotion of “titihing”, you have to continue to ignore some very important details about the practice:

1. What amount was the tithe biblically?

Since there were three different “tithes”, The Levite tithe:(Leviticus 27:30-34) 10% a year, The Sanctuary Tithe (Deuteronomy 14:22-27) an additional 10% a year (This tithe of grain, new wine, oil and the firstborn of flocks and herds was consumed by the people in the presence of the Lord), and finally the Welfare Tithe (Deuteronomy 14:22-27; 26:12) which was an additional 10% given in the 3rd and 6th year of the 7 year sabbatical cycle and also not taken to the temple but rather stored in each city for the purpose of feeding the local Levites, the orphans, widows, and the strangers (or foreigners) who lived with the Israelites.

This averages out to about 23% a year every 7 years.
So 10% just doesn’t cut it buddy.

2. What did the people actually tithe?

Well if you read the scriptures cited above you will see that it was always agricultural products and farm animals. Even in the case of the Sanctuary Tithe when the products themselves were exchanged for money, it was only in order to lighten the load of travel for the ones traveling a great distance to the temple. The family head would then re-exchange the money for the products mentioned earlier and eat them before the Lord with his household.

By the way, how come the passa is the only one “eating the tithe before the Lord”?!

3. Who was required to tithe in the first place?

Well we see that the orphans, widows, and foreigners were exempt. The Levites (Numbers 18:21-32) had a different sort of exemption in that they gave a tenth of the tithe that they received from the children of Israel to Aaron the priest to present as a “heave offering” before the Lord.

Now I’ve never heard any pastor teach the exemptions while he taught tithing, maybe you have.

4. What was the purpose of the tithe?

Well I think that we’ve seen the answer: 1. For the Levites and their service in the temple, 2. For the people themselves as part of an elaborate worship celebration before the Lord, and 3. For the widows, orphans, and foreigners. That presents some real problems:

1. There are no more Levite priest. Our High Priest (Jesus Christ) was a priest after the order of Melchizedek, which was superior to the Levite priesthood in every way. Jesus doesn’t need tithes.

2. The only temple on earth is your body if you’re a Christian and I presume you are. (I Corinthians 3:16; 6:19)

3. You already know that the money is being used to build elaborate buildings under the guise of promoting the gospel. Come on Gdub, you know this is unbiblical.

5. The tithe totally ignores all of the passages on giving that were directed to or examples for the “church”. (I Corinthians 9:1-14, I Corinthians 16:1-2, and II Corinthians 9 to name a few)

I could go on and on. Have you read Melvin’s essay? Well you should if you have not. But you can’t continue to ignore the substance, detail, function, or purpose of the tithe and then try and drag it over into the new covenant as some “ground floor giving” rule. (to quote Randy Alcorn, “Money, Possessions, and Eternity: Revised and Updated” which is a wonderful book until he gets to the section on tithing and then it becomes a load of crap!)

BTW, the TESTIMONY OF SCRIPTURE is always superior in authority and reliability to some testiphony given during a service.

However, all Baptism symbolizes is a covenant sign of being identified with the Gospel…..& with that in mind, there doesn’t seem to be anything wrong with those who baptize their children simply to show that they desire them to be identified with CHRIST.

Infant baptism seems reasonable to do since babies were circumcised & brought into a covenant relationship with God in the Old Testament (Gen. 12-17). …..& as some believe, the Abrahamic covenant under which the infants were circumcised is still valid because of its label as the Gospel (Galatians 3:8)

You said….Moreover, seeing that we’re to be fair in our assessments & hear all sides of the issue, (Proverbs 24:23, Proverbs 18:15 ), what to make of the testimonies of those truly blessed practicing tithing?

Me: This is where I take issue with the false teaching of tithing, and other’s tithing ‘testimonies’. How can anyone, or even you, rationalize that they were blessed because of their regulated tithing? How can anyone know that, what they considered their blessing was a result of their tithing? This is where man crosses the line and sets himself up too highly, to surmise that he could know the mind of God (Isaiah 55:8). It is insane.

This becomes the doctrine of devils that says, “you must give to get”; and, from there it’s, “you don’t give enough, and that’s why you don’t have what you need/want”. The next thing you know, someone, somewhere, is questioning the Sovereignty of God because they’re measuring their lives against the wealth of another.

I spent the first 30 years of my life, listening to ministers that I was “instructed” to listen to; never really much hearing that I should seek God for myself. These last fifteen have been spent in a purely intimate relationship with Christ without the hinderance of man-made ordinances concerning my faith walk.

I do not tithe, but I give according to, what I have, the needs of others, or by the unction of the Lord’s Holy Spirit. Now, I have a testimony of how the Lord has blessed me; shall I attribute it to my non-tithing practices? God forbid! As with all things concerning man, it is by the grace and mercy of God that any are saved, blessed, and kept.

Ministers, and teachers of tithing, force others to give grudingly; and, this includes by guilt, twisted Scripture, or on the unfounded testimonies of those who claim blessings by tithing. This is not a part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I am, Brah ……& anyone paying attention will see that the direction of this thread WAS NOT SIMPLY FOCUSED ON MANDATING TITHING as WRONG.

Please Don’t act like I’m not addressing something ALREADY MADE APPARENT in the thread, for the general direction of things was believing the practice of giving TITHES IS GENERALLY WRONG…..& anyone holding to it’s AUTOMATICALLY an ISSUE.

EVIDENCE……

Msamu
2007-09-02 15:24:30

Tithes were never taught in the NT, tithes are NOT for the NT believers, as it’s taught today its error plain and simple, tithes are not in the gospel as taught by any of the apostles. Its ERROR doesn’t matter who teaches it. A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

DTG
2007-09-01 18:59:15

Tithes are pimpery under the radar always has been and always will be.

(MN: Those two statements have nothing to do with what you said. You said:

That is my issue with your statement/Question. Why try to take us down that path (encouraging = pimping) when no one is saying that? )

)

(MN: So are you saying, since there is neither male nor female, that it’s okay for me to marry a guy that I happen to be really fond of? Why do folks like you insist on twisting a verse so you can do what you want and then ignoring other verses that tell you things you don’t want to hear?

There’s not much point in asking the first question given that you ar, I assume, seriously asking the third. I am not going to be taught at the Grand Opening. I’m going to collect information and report back to you, the readers. You phrase would better be used on a person who says “I know he preaches error, but I can pick out the bones and swallow the meat. ” )

Never said that, Brah….please don’t put words in my mouth (though if I did & haven’t noticed, please point it out)…..

Though I agree with your statement of how setting amounts will hinder dependence on God’s leading…..for Using a tithe (10%) as a gauge for giving carries the potential to prove arbitrary/misleading, since the commandment to LOVE GOD shouldn’t be reduced to giving mere percentages of one’s incomes

Will share more later…….

Or that ALL preachers encouraging their congregations to be generous in giving ARE as WRONG as those manipulating congregations by MANDATING TITHING? (MN: Come on Gdub. Surely you can see that encouraging someone to be generous is not the same as mandating the tithe. Why would someone think they are as wrong? You keep doing this - running down the road no one was going and then taking up our time with nonsense posts. Pay attention. )

Moreover, seeing that we’re to be fair in our assessments & hear all sides of the issue, (Proverbs 24:23, Proverbs 18:15 ), what to make of the testimonies of those truly blessed practicing tithing?

(MN: How is it that I have to hear the side of someone who contradicts scrpture? Fair is not an end in itself. )

Are their stories FALSE/ INVALID simply because of those abusing tithing?

(MN: So how do you prove they were blessed because they tithed? The best you can do is demonstrate that they were blessed while tithing (as the modern Christian defines tithing, remembering that if they were only giving 10 percent instead of thirty, or giving money instead produce and livestock, they weren’t really tithing. So how could they have been blessed because of tithing?)

Obviously, it is incorrect to say that Christians are REQUIRED to tithe, for the NT doesn’t say such.

However, seeing that GREATEST standard to evaluate our giving is the commandment to love the Lord our God & our neighbors as ourselves (Matthew 22:34-40, Luke 10:25-37, Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:13-14), does this mean that faithful tithing cannot fall short of Christian GENEROSITY ( II Corinthians 8-9)?

(MN: No, it doesn’t. However, it does mean that we give as God would move in each of our hearts. You’re still saying I’m stealing from God if I don’t give at LEAST 10 percent. Still not right. )

Or that Christians’ are FORBIDDEN to tithe, & all members making a FREE CHOICE to support their churches with it are WRONG……?

(MN: Here’s the deal - each member, each Christian at the local assembly can give as little or as much as they wish and they are not stealing from God. On the other hand, a maturing Christian will do with his money as God wishes, whether that might be supporting the local assembly’s place of assembly, giving his time and treasure to promote the gospel, provide help to other Chirstians [as God would lead], and a host of other things. God wants our entire heart, soul and body, not just 10% of my paycheck.

Setting an amount interferes with the individual believer’s dependence on the leading of God. )

Same today. Folks sending their money out for foolishness.

Just got off FBCG website and it looks like they’ll be rolling out the red carpet during there first week at the new worship center. Your favorite pimp, T. Dexter Jakes, will make a grand apperance on 9/19/07. So Get Ready Get Ready Get Ready……

(MN: I’ll probably be coming out with a new post this evening. I’m afraid I just couldn’t leave it alone. I guess the sheeple are right - I do obsess on this guy. Sigh. )

Blessings…..