Ladies and gentlemen, patrons of Pulpit-Pimps.org, I have to admit that this avocation of mine has proven to be very interesting. It has allowed me to see both the rational and straight up irrational sides of those who profess to worship God.
One of the things you don’t see in the day-to-day operation of this site is the behind the scene communications I have with various folks. Some are quite pleased with the site and are very generous in their compliments and testimonies. Some have offered advice which I have taken and improved the site. And some…well…some demonstrate to me that my job is not close to being done.
One commenter asked “Why do you keep doing stories on these guys? Why don’t you move on to something else?”
My response? “People need to be warned over and over again. You can’t just warn them once.”
I got an e-mail the other day that illustrated this need in spades. I asked the writer if I could use the e-mail here on the site. The writer graciously agreed.
Here is the text of the e-mail, no format changes, not grammar or spelling corrections. It is exactly as I received it , shouting and all. Oh, I know the writer understands the concept of caps being the equivalent of shouting because the response to my request was in normal upper and lower case text.
Here’s the message:
THIS EMAIL IS IN REFERENCE TO YOUR ARTICLE POSTED ON LAST YEAR CONCERNING PREACHERS ON THE EAST COAST. PERSONALLY, I FEEL THAT YOU HAVE BEEN MISLEAD AND YOUR IGNORANCE REALLY SHOWS IN WHAT YOU WERE SPEAKING ON. WHY MIGHT I SAY THAT, GLAD YOU ASKED! ITS BECAUSE YOU CLEARLY STATED YOURSELF THAT YOU’VE NEVER HEARD BISHOP HAWKINS, AND AS FAR AS I KNOW ANY OF THE LISTED PREACHERS, SPEAK BEFORE BUT YOU CAN MAKE A JUDGEMENT CONCERNING THEM. NOW WHAT I NEED YOU TO DO IS STUDY THE BIBLE FOR YOURSELF AND SEE WHAT IT SAYS ABOUT PUTTING YOUR MOUTH ON A MAN/WOMAN OF GOD. YOU’RE REALLY ASKING FOR TROUBLE. NOW WHAT IVE ALSO COME TO REALIZE IS THAT THOSE WHO ARE BROKE, BUSTED, AND DISGUSTED ARE THE ONES THAT HAVE AN ISSUE WITH NOT ONLY PROSPERING PASTORS BUT, PEOPLE AS WELL. THATS BECAUSE YOU OR THOSE LIKE YOU DONT UNDERSTAND HOW TO WORK THE PRINCIPLES THAT THE BIBLE AND OTHER SOURCES GIVE YOU ON HOW TO GAIN WEALTH. FEEL FREE TO REPLY IF YOU WANT.
The first thing you should notice is the writer did not address any of the issues discussed in the article on pimps-in-training . In this article, I highlighted the up and coming pimp Bishop Hawkins.
Notice that the person goes through all of the standard non-rebuttals:
- Don’t put your mouth on the man or woman of God
- You object to the preachers like these because you don’t know how to work the principles of wealth that the Bible offers
- You are misled and ignorant
The site has been on line for two and a half years. We still get, with great regularity, a mindless defense of the wolves and pimps by the very people being taken advantage of. And these people, in their defense, illustrate over and over again why the wolves are able to pimp them. That reason? Virtually no understanding of what the Bible says, what God requires of us, or what a truly spiritual life looks like.
These people need our help. They need to be able to talk to someone who can calmly and rationally explain to them why they should run away from the Christian Life Center and Slaughterhouse as quickly as possible. And help them find a church that is teaching the basics, the fundamentals you might say; and teaching them what the fundamentals look like in their lives.
The pimps will always be here. And unfortunately, the sheeple will always be there, practically begging the pimp to shear them. We can help those whose hearts God opens to escape. Be ready in season and out to give a response to any one who may ask.
Thanks to Dezzari bringing this scripture to mind, i think this may be most revelant to this topic…
Acts 20:29-35
” 29 I know that after my departing grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock;
30 and from among your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.
31 Wherefore watch ye, remembering that by the space of three years I ceased not to admonish every one night and day with tears.
32 And now I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you the inheritance among all them that are sanctified.
33 I coveted no man’s silver, or gold, or apparel.
34 Ye yourselves know that these hands ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.
35 In all things I gave you an example, that so laboring ye ought to help the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that he himself said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.”
the thing that jumps out to me is that Paul, in commenting about his soon departure, felt to warn the people at Ephus about the false teachers (savage wolves) that will come among them. He felt so much of a conviction, that he warned them DAY AND NIGHT FOR A PEROID OF 3 YEARS!! My question is, if it doesnt matter what people preach and we should just leave them be. Then why did Paul warn that people day and night for such a long time to the point of tears? Was Paul being foolish? Was Paul jealous or playa hatin’? I say nay! Rather Paul knew that the implications of what false teachers can do to a people.
Another thing to note is that, i think that alot of these churches can take examples from Paul in how he carried about his ministry. in v. 33-35, he insisted that he never coveted for no ones silver and gold or clothing. Rather he ‘ministered to his own needs’ (i.e. he worked so he can eat). Therefore, his example is that by WORKING hard that they would be inspired to do the same to help the weak and remember the words of Christ.
Paul went out of his way to try and avoid taking money. He never wanted to feel that he was a burden to anyone. Only when he actually needed it did he ever take any, which he considered “robbing”, 2 Corinthians 11:8-9. Other than that, it was like 2 Corinthians 12:14. He was telling them to save the money for their children. I heard The “Old Trailblazer” (L. R. Shelton Sr.) on the radio recently, and he said, that old ladies with retirement money they won’t use before dying should send him their money instead of giving it to their “no good children”. That’s what he actually said, he said they’ve got kids that would fight over money and are not acting right and it should be given to him instead of their own kids. My wife thought I was about to crash the car when he said that over the radio.
Paul had a view of:
While today’s pimps act like somebody “won’t be saved” if they don’t get money to broadcast themselves, in style.
These pimps twist words written by Paul’s hand as inspired by God in scripture like 2 Corinthians 9, but they never mention that the scripture was talking about giving to POOR SAINTS. And scripture from Paul’s hand that does speak of giving to a minister never eludes to the extravagance we see from today’s pimps. A Bentley for example is not “double honor”, that’s insanity! And if the minister’s needs are already met, they need no more! They don’t need a car that cost as much as some saint’s homes.
IC said: “A Bentley for example is not “double honor”, that’s insanity!”…
i don’t know why thats so funny; but you know that is so true.
2Timothy 3 :Caveat emptor
IC,
I hear what you’re saying about the comments made by LR Shelton. Shelton has been deceased for over 20yrs. They are playing some his old teachings over the radio. I would not place him in the same category as the pimps because of one blanket statement he made. I am familiar with his ministry and he is a fire and brimstone preacher. His ministry has been giving away literature and they do not believe in profiting off the gospel. When you get a chance to visit the New Orleans area (1st Church of Algiers), you can stop by the church and receive a tour of the staff, who uses an old vintage printer, to make gospel tracks. Allen Pendarvis, an old time preacher as well, is faithfully crying out against false teaching by playing old clips of LR Shelton over the radio waves. Some of the pamplets are as follows: “How and When God Saved a Baptist Preacher” “What in Hell do you want?” and “When a Preacher Went to Hell and a Harlot Went to Heaven”. By the way, on what radio station and what city have you been getting his teachings? I wish I was receiving his teachings out of Denver.
Take care,
Bro Duke
I live in the South. So obviously he gets major play down here. Can’t say how you could get those broadcasts where you are, but I don’t put faith in men. Without his broadcasts I can study scripture and not feel my children are no good leeches awaiting my death.
I’m not saying he always comes like that (from what they air), but he’s playing (well played) on elderly women (as the specified target) and it’s nothing but old country game.
Acts 18:3 Identifies what Paul laboured at. Ironically enough reading a lot of church history there was a lot of selling of salvation I think in pre renaissance times hence the ushering in of a number of the reformists. Ecc 1:9 comes to mind perhaps?
WOW………….That’s awesome, if we would only read the word and believe it and aply (not just hear’s of the word but do’ers). How come no one reply to these types of scripture’s. Because some people want to keep the blind folders becuase they are scared of the truth………They can’t handle the truth.
Why do all of you have so much time on your hands to sit and talk about all of these preachers? Everything that Bishop Hawkins preaches comes straight from the Bible. After every sermon on Wed & Sun I go back and study hard on everything that he preaches. The problem is people don’t want to see pastors get blessed. How does anyone on the website no for a fact that these preachers are “pimps in the pul-pit?”
MN: No, your job is not even close to being done. As for the one commenter who asked “Why do you keep doing stories on these guys? Why don’t you move on to something else?” God has done stories on us for the past several thousand years and some still haven’t gotten it, AND HIS MESSAGE HAS NOT CHANGED!
2 Chron 36:14-16 — The Lord, the God of their fathers, sent word to them again and again by His messengers because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place; but they CONTINUALLY mocked the messengers of God, despised His Words and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the Lord arose against His people UNTIL THERE WAS NO REMEDY.
Jeremiah 25:23-5 — They have not listened nor inclined their ear to hear [WHAT THUS SAYS THE LORD]. They go after other gods—mammon—and worship them.
Jeremiah 29:19 — They have listened to false profits/profitesses who made us trust in lies.
Jeremiah 32:33 — They have turned their backs to God the Lord, though HE alone has taught them, teaching again and again; neither would they listen and receive instruction.
Jeremiah 35:14-15 — They do not listen nor incline their ears to turn from their wickedness.
God in the flesh–JESUS–continues in the New Testament using that word, again and again, in Matthew 5:33, He “assumes” that they have heard… Did they? Verse 13:45 and 47, “Again…”; 18:19, “Again I say to you…” [JESUS is still speaking]; and 19:24, “Again I say to you….”
“Ah,” they say, but that’s the Old Testament, and we’re under grace now.” Foolish fellows and fellowesses (this one’s on loan)! Romans 15:4 speaks to the Whole Family of God: “For whatever was written in earlier times was written FOR OUR INSTRUCTION, so that through perseverance and the encouragement OF THE SCRIPTURES we might have hope.”
Oh, BTW, Jesus (God in the flesh) does expect us to READ for ourselves, e.g., Matthew 19:4 — And He answered and said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female…,”
To the false profits/profitesses, wicked, hirelings, plagiarists, thieves, liars, adulterers, deceivers, slanderers, you who forget God and His Word, read carefully Psalm 50:16-23.
Sorry Mel about all the CAPS but they’re strictly for the benefit of the doubters and those who don’t read for themselves. Couldn’t locate proper placement for this comment; please accommodate, thanks, B
Along time ago, a wise man once told me something that statements like that one unfortunately seems to bear out.
He said, “98% of the people retain the right to remain stupid”. Of course he said this in regard to the car buying public (he was my manager at the auto dealership where I once worked years ago), but I’m starting to believe this may apply to far too many professing Christians also.
You keep it up Mel, the 2% need you!!!
We continue to contend for the faith. Sooner or later, those who the Lord wills will embrace the truth. We’ll keep telling the truth of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, even if they don’t like it.
I must say, seeing someone call Melvin “BROKE, BUSTED, AND DISGUSTED” is rather humorous to me, given I had an opportunity to meet him in person. By the Lord’s will, he is not broke, busted or disgusted. In fact, we met for dinner and I could not pry the bill from his hands. I had ordered BIG because I had not eaten much of the day and certainly expected to pay for my meal. But Melvin wanted to get himself a 100 fold blessing and paid for the meal. (We really did meet, and we really did JOKE that he’ll get a 100 fold blessing for paying the bill
.) On the way out, I opened the door so he could walk out, which ensured my double portion blessing 
.
Melvin, knowing that you probably get even more of the type of mail that I get, I know you held back in showing the kind of e-mail you get. The people who want to toss us in hell, the people who call us demons, the people who claim we will one day die of a terrible illness and so on. I’ve seen in blogging about politics and church, the most hatred, evil and nasty messages from people who claim to uphold the faith. And then there are plenty of people who send messages of encouragement and support. Likewise, those are the most supportive and encouraging messages I’ve ever received. We don’t all get to meet personally, but the Lord allows a means for us to keep one another encouraged, Romans 1:12
To IC:
Any day, these rich, false prophets can become broke, busted and disgusted, playing with the IRS. What will the sheeple, who follow them will say?
Speaking of the IRS, someone sent me this interesting article.
To IC:
I cannot find the link to your article about the IRS. Was it removed? Also I’ve noticed that you have an article about Bishop Paul S Morton. He was on national tv, maybe last year talking about Hurricane Katrina and how his church was destroyed and on the process of being rebuilt. I don’t keep up with those tv ministries like I used to anymore.
The article is about a pimp in AL that tried to act like his “love offerings” should be treated as “gifts” and was convicted for not properly reporting to the IRS. If I get time (which is in very short supply) I’ll put a post together, not sure why the full URL does not work right when placed in a comment. Basically, yet another pimp busted.
Katrina supposedly wiped out Morton’s buildings. Then Tyler (he dress like a woman) Perry bailed him out. Because Mr. dress like a woman is one of Morton’s favorite members at his church/club.
Morton has re-established his Religious Industry empire in Atlanta.
JULY 27, 2007- MORTON’S PRESS CONFERENCE ON THE BEATING OF young TROY LAWRENCE BY JEFFERSON PARISH POLICE OFFICERS BEATING & VIOLATION OF THE YOUNG MAN’S CIVIL RIGHTS-POLICE BRUTALITY
Why was this kid arrested and cuffed in the first place? Is something being left out of the story? I’ve been stopped for speeding, and so has almost everyone I know at some point in their lives. However, unless they didn’t have a valid driver’s license, or had drugs in their car, or were driving a stolen car, they were merely ticketed. WHy was he arrested and cuffed? And, if he moved the cuffs, okay, the one shot where the officer broke his hand, but why the additional Rodney-King style tag team match? If I’m missing something, please let me know. I’m not anti-police,but this doesn’t look good.
http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/wwl072807tpbeating.b7d9034e.html
(MN: I saw the story on the station’s page. But I’m not real clear on why you posted this comment. Please clarify. )
To IC:
I am not certain if Bishop Morton was on a national broadcast or a local one in New York, but he seems to play a powerful role in the WOF movement.
Yes Paul Morton is a Kingpin Pimp and that’s why I noted it with details in a recent post.
He’s not as “known” as some of the pimps he’s teamed with, but he’s certainly been a “king maker” in the pimp game. Other pimps he teams with often grow bigger than him in name recognition, but Morton is like the Ike Turner of pulpit pimps.
that “broke, busted, and disgusted” line is one of T.D. Jakes’ more popular sayings. I’m continuelly amazed at how people are willing to be fooled… but the old people used to say, “if you tell/hear a lie long enough eventually you’ll believe it”.
I’ve come to undestand that a lot of people who don’t want to accept the truth is because they don’t want to change themselves. Like minds, like spirits. If you are setting under a pastor (so called) who is committing adultrey most likely your find it’s members committing adultrey themeselves. Likewise other sinful acts. If they would just read the Bible, they would not only be able to notice the false teachings but themselves being the one having the itchy ears. I came out of the church/tradition 2yrs ago after much praying and studing and Melvin, Dezzari, Independent Conservative,GaryV and others have truly been a blessing.
Be encouraged true men of God. Know that you all are being prayed for. Us sisters who are walking in truth need “MEN” to guide/lead us into rightousness. Yes I said we women need MEN….LOL That’s the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
p.s When you guy’s decide to start a church that teach the true word of God, let a sister know am in the market to fellowship with some true body of believers.
Melvin,
This brings me to a scripture:
For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their deeds. (2 Corinthians 11:13-15).
Remeber the Prophet Jeremiah and how People Clowned him and presecuted him because he prophesized the Desturction of Israel and how Israel didnt listen to him.
Keep doing what you doing man.
I remember leaving a church when I was about 20 or so, after about 2 months. It was small church, but the Pastor was pimping, and preaching false doctrine. He claimed that he saw Jesus many times in physical form. Even one time at the churches “pre service” service, there was a debate about giving to the poor, one guy said “i rather give my money to the church, than to some DC crackhead”. I remember leaving the church, the Pastor called me the following day and said “IF YOU EVER WANT TO SUCCEED IN LIFE, I COMMAND YOU TO COME BACK TO THIS CHRUCH”. I was scared for my life. LOL. When you stand up and speak against false teachers and their doctrine, sometimes your friends,family etc… will curse you, and command demons on you all in Jesus’ name.
I promise you, when I hear someone use that, “putting your mouth on God’s anointed”, it takes every bit of God’s grace to keep my flesh intact, and to not come out swinging. This has to be one of the most ignorant, and ignorantly used statements a person could ever utter in an attempt to protect these hirelings; and that, coupled with the very misused, “touch not mine anointed”, just sets my teeth on edge!
I may be totally out of order for saying this, but when I think on the folks who are so wise in their own deceit, and the people who follow them, I can hear the words of Christ, “my sheep hear my voice, and they follow Me, and a stranger they will not follow” (John 10:5, 27; paraphrased). I am disturbed when people cannot support the substance of their faith with sound, rightly divided Scripture; but, will attempt to diminish Scriptural truth with flesh-laden nonsense. It causes me to wonder if they are merely serving the ‘god’ of their imagination.
I don’t recall who coined this statement, but they said, “everyone wants to go to heaven, they just don’t want Jesus to be there”. Many aren’t interested in Jesus alone; they need Jesus, plus something else. The reward of eternal life matters little, if at all, to one who is seeking the wealth of this world. Though it may be out of context, the application is yet apparent concerning the false worshippers of today, the Lord rightly said, “ye worship ye know not what”.
I, for one, thank God for your obedience in answering the call to “go, and tell this people….” (Isaiah 6:9)
Grace and peace!!
I would love to hear the “principle of wealth that this statement implies:
” THATS BECAUSE YOU OR THOSE LIKE YOU DONT UNDERSTAND HOW TO WORK THE PRINCIPLES THAT THE BIBLE AND OTHER SOURCES GIVE YOU ON HOW TO GAIN WEALTH. ”
I didn’t know there was a principle to wealth. For example, the principle/law of gravity works for sinners and well as saints in that if a sinner jumps from a building, he/she as well as a saints will fall according to the law of gravity. Now if there is a “Principle” of prosperity/wealth then it would mean it works for everyone. Now answer me this question: If the principle of wealth/prosperity is true, why is it that everyone in the church who gives 10,20 or sometimes more on a weekly basis not rolling in wealth? As pastor John Coleman states on a writing on his website, IF GOD WANTED EVERYONE WEALTHY, WHO WOULD WORK FOR WHO?
“NOW WHAT IVE ALSO COME TO REALIZE IS THAT THOSE WHO ARE BROKE, BUSTED, AND DISGUSTED ARE THE ONES THAT HAVE AN ISSUE WITH NOT ONLY PROSPERING PASTORS BUT, PEOPLE AS WELL.”
Hold the fort there, I personally know a few who have and are disgusted with this type teaching. I do not consider myself busted but am disgusted that the church is acting like the world when it comes to money. Money is a snare in the body of Christ and can cause one to be highminded and trust in it. Did you not read the warning given by Jesus and Paul? I feel that I can be honest with myself even if you cannot in that if someone placed millions before me, I would probably begin to be deceived by the money and start to trust in it. I am just being real here. It is hard to focus on the things of God when are trusting in wealth( I did not say impossible but HARD) because THINGS start to cloud your focus. This may SHOCK you but, in actuality, it does not take millions to spread the gospel. Yeah, I have heard the argument about it cost to pay the utilities, material, transportation etc but what about this; AND LET’S BE HONEST FOR A SECOND. If you or I told one person about the gospel and they told one and so forth. How fast would the gospel grow? OK, let’s say you tell one and they don’t receive, KEEP TELLING THEM. How many people do you run into in a day, week, month or year? Changes things doesn’t it? We need to get up off our lazy, money hungry, pastor worshipping, world chasing, celebrity wannabe carcuses and spread the Gospel of Jesus Coming, Living among us, dying for our sins on the cross, raising on the third day, ascending back to heaven and sitting on the right hand of the Father and coming back again. I have said enough. Good bye!!
It is not alway the sheeple, sometimes it’s the fellow pastors. In my city there is a well know pastor that was convicted of tax evasion on this past friday and one pastor they interviewed said the following: “it it is about the monye, we have over 1000 churches in the metropolitan area and WE would be willing to pay the money for him?” Also a lot of his pastor friends are cscreaming of how goo a man he is etc. My problem with this whole thing is that although I hated it happened for him and his family, HE BROKE THE LAW AND ANOTHER PASTOR WANTS TO COVER IT UP BY PAYING IT OFF!! How sad. And of course, the enemy will be blamed and not the pastor who apparently willfully committed the crime and will not admit it. And we wonder why the world calls us “HYPOCRITES”
Aljonathan, here is the principle of wealth as taught by the pimps.
Give the pimps the PRINCIPAL authority over your doctrine instead of the Bible.
Make the pimp the PRINCIPAL concern of your life leaving God, your family, your bills, and your witness a distant second.
Give the pimp the PRINCIPAL portion of all your giving.
The pimp then banks the cash and lets it collect PRINCIPAL.
To Gary V
They may collect the interest too but not in their sheeple. It is sad.
(MN: I tend to put this in the same category as Hornbuckle. The state has convicted him. IT is no longer alleged. As a result, I don’t have a problem with using the man’s name. As a caveat, there is the possibility that the man is not a pimp. He could just be foolish or have a stupid lawyer working for him. Remember, Lover Offerings do not automatically make you a pimp. Here’s the article’s web page. )
An interesting article from my hometown’s local newspaper. I have witheld names for the sake of families involved and just to make a point about greed and how we defend those even if proven that they hade broken the law. Does anyone own up to their sins, even when they are found out?
LOVE THY PASTOR, JUST NOT IN CASH
Sunday, July 22, 2007
Ministers paraded through the federal tax fraud trial of the Rev. ******* ***** last week.
Some prayed and laid hands on the *** **** ******* Church pastor before he solemnly left the courtroom each day. Some sat in quiet support in the packed gallery, while others were turned away for lack of space.
And then there were preachers such as the Rev. ***** *****of ****** ******* Church, who testified the money his church paid to ***** was a gift and not income as the government claimed - even if it was paid to ****** for participating in an annual leadership conference.
It seemed simple to ministers and the loyal members of ******’s congregation who gathered in the courtroom: The feds just don’t understand a “love offering.”
But sadly they do. A love offering, according to understanding they’ve etched, as sure as scripture in the U.S. Code, is taxable income.
And the consequences of that are profound and far-reaching.
And ****** knew it. After he was convicted Friday on all three counts of tax fraud, he paid homage to what he called the FOPP - the Fraternal Order of Preachers and Pastors that supported him so vocally. He stood outside the courthouse in a purple frock and clerical collar - looking more MC Hammer than humble reverend - and spoke one profound truth.
This thing can affect a whole lot of preachers.
Can I get an “Amen”?
Not to downplay FOPP loyalty or anything, but that’s one good reason so many ministers took a personal interest in ******’s case. It could wreck the whole clerical gravy train.
Gifts, “love offerings” and cash payments have been used for decades to bolster preachers’ salaries, particularly in black congregations with powerful, charismatic ministers. So ******’s conviction is not just a shot across the bow. It’s a cannon blast through the poop deck.
There is no such thing as a tax-free cash gift or a “love offering” to a preacher, as Chattanooga church financial consultant Michael Chitwood says in his book, “IRS Treatment of Gifts & Love Offerings to Ministers.”
“The fact that the person is a minister, and that the payments arise directly or indirectly from the person’s ministry work, defeats any and all argument that payments received are nontaxable,” he writes.
And while ****** argued the tax law was perhaps too complicated for jurors to understand, it is not. A congregation’s desire to reward its pastor is always, in the eyes of the law, a payment for services rendered, no matter what they call it. It is not a gift.
That doesn’t make the situation any easier for the members of ******’s congregation who crowded into court all week, who stood stunned and saddened by the guilty verdict.
But then, they have culpability in sending their beloved preacher to prison. They did, after all, love him enough to hand him thousands of dollars without payroll deduction, proper records or even good recollections.
Hey, if you like your pastor that much, you need to write a check. If you love your pastor, make it out to the church.
John Archibald’s column appears Sundays, Tuesdays and Thursdays.
Now melvin, I think the point was well taken without names involved. If his name was John Doe, it would not have mattered, would it? I just thought the whole ordeal was a sad one in that he would not admit it and people still stand with him as if he didn’t do it. I for one, will not stand with you if you are wrong, brother or not, wrong is wrong.
(MN: I certainly understand your position. I, on the other hand, believe the folks who attend the other churches need to know if their pastors are standing with this guy. One of the techniques the pimps use in keeping the sheeple giving, is to prevent information from getting out there. When ever I spoke with folks at First Baptist Church of Glenarden about some of the things that were going on there, the first line of defense was “I’ll have to investigate to see if that is going on.” The translation: I don’t want to listen to you and I have no intention of doing anything about it.
I prefer preemptive strikes. Get the information out there and available and take away the ability of people to make excuses for their pimps. )
Now listen to a pastor’s point of view of this whole situation of tax fraud. a commercial precedes the interview.
http://www.myfoxal.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail;jsessionid=78D63D62791EAFAA8908054723B2E283?contentId=3829750&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=1.1.1&sflg=1
What puzzles me the most about the defenders is how they bless you in one breath (sentence), and in the very next sentence curse you to hell? In my opinion, either they are mentally ill and can not not help themselves, or just lazy (way too comfortable to move away from the church). Some people have even taken the profiteers over their own family and that is very scary. Also,it is downright cult-like to worship men and God warns us about that in his word.
When the poster typed something about being “Broke, Busted and Disgusted” I laughed out loud when I read those words. Are you worshiping Jesus or a man?
Maybe the defenders of the pimps do so because they are so offended at being lumped into this group of DUMB *groupies*.
Not making excuses for them, but can you imagine how offensive it would be to be told how stupid and mislead you are by a complete stranger who doesn’t know you or your pimp, er pastor? Its like a battered spouse. They will defend the person that gives them a smack down no matter how badly they have obviously been hurt, sometimes. They will even blame themselves as the batterer taught them - not enough faith, not planting enough seeds, not giving to the man of god enough, not attending church enough, not their season ….you get my drift. Being warned isn’t enough if they aren’t already looking to get out. Until they are looking to get out of this abusive relationship, you are practically wasting your breath.
OTOH, you have those that are ready to get out but don’t see any alternatives. These will lash out at you too. But mostly because they feel that the alternative is worse than what they are currently dealing with. They want an alternative that gives them everything and expects nothing from them in return since they have already suffered enough.
But this is just my own widdle opinion.
I just tuned to the new Jim Baker Show and sitting next to him is the high priestess of pimpology (PAULA White). Good old Jim is back in the real estate racket and Paula on on hand to help . Whats new is old . lol
You MN and the rest know what your up against in this fight for there rights. But those pimps aren’t letting up giving those same old verses that they been using. Why change if it’s still working on them. We have to kept praying for them and let God do his thing.
Far too may people are entering their so called ministries to fulfill their own personal destiny. Haven’t you all heard how often this is cited among these folks. What aboput entering the ministry because you have been called to help fulfill God’s purpose in the earth to preach the gospel unto every creature. If the apostles followed Jesus to fulfill some grandiose idea of a great destiny. I am susre they would have all been disappointed!They have been attracted the to the task of leading God’s people as a means to gain popularity, prestige and mammon. The proliferation of these charlatans has overun the church ; especially in the pentecostal and charismatic circles. Even the baptists are falling prey to this damnable trend. To paraphrase the NT book of Jude: “These men are clouds that promise rain and yet deliver nothing, autumn tress that provide no fruit and uprooted; twice dead.” Jude 1:12-13.
Further, this idea of not confronting men and women who lead people astray with false doctrine and the manipulations of men is based in their own ignorance. In the same book of Jude; THey will divide you and follow their mere natural instincts (lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh and the pride of life) and do NOT have the Spirit (emphasis mine). If the writer of the email would only read the Bible from which these men extracted wealth principles. instead of their books, booklets, tapes, CD’s, DVD’s, etc. They would see they are being decieved. Kepp on contending for the faith! In my part of the vineyard I am doing the same thing.
You’re right. This positive thought materialism/word faith movement/blab it and grab it movement, and it’s accompanying philosophies, have even corrupted solidly mainstream denominations, such as the baptists and methodists-especially black baptist churches, who now want to become pentecostal or charismatic, similar to what many A.M.E. churches have done.
Don’t get me wrong, I am not anti-pentecostal, for I do believe that their views are compatible with a christian worldview. And I also believe that you can be a pentecostal, and not necessarily be a follower of the word faith movement, and its subsequent teachings.
Baptists, Methodists, and the like, aren’t pentecostal, nor do they have pentecostal roots, but look at how they’ve been, or beginning to get enraptured into this new form of cultic and apostate christianity, known as the faith movement.
Many of these preachers, from these denominations, are preaching another jesus, demoting jesus, deifying man and satan, as well as preaching ideas straight from the metaphysical cults.
If you ask me, many (not all) of these preachers are demonically possessed, especially if they claim that the Holy Spirit is giving them their false revelations and teachings.
when did the whole concept of full-time pastoring began? When I read scripture, everyone who proclaimed the gospel had a job. If these men or women would get a real job, they would see how difficult it is to earn a buck and not try to manipulate out of the poor.
There is scriptural support for men working full time in ministry, like 1 Timothy 5:17-18. Those who work full time in ministry and receive support from others (as Christ did when ministering before the cross) are not put down for doing so. But Paul tried to set an even better example by working of his own hands much of the time. Although, even Paul took support at times, 2 Corinthians 11:8-9. Notice Paul took no pride in that at all. And Paul was in very terrible shape when he took it.
Really there’s not a scriptural problem with a pastor working full time, but he’s got to avoid abusing the privilege and that’s why Paul usually avoided taking money. Pastors should strive not to burden the church.
Them crooks always using the same thing them
“pastor” I know there are good ones out their.
“ALL” minster’s should get paid then not just the pastor. It doesn’t say just the pastor it doesn’t
even says the pastor anyway. God knew why, just
look around us look at the problems they have done I know not all. If they are never told you don’t so-call need me the pastor anymore it will “not” change because they need them to “pimp” them and wait for there every word out of them pastor mouth.
IC:
I agree with the scriptural backing of giving double honor to the worthy elders that labor in word and doctrine; however, it does not say that they are not suppose to have regular jobs or careers. The Levites were the only group that God told to live off of the land and the people but they were not to have any possessions. Jesus our Lord was a carpenter; Peter was a fisherman; Paul a tent-maker… The reason I feel this way is because I don’t see preaching as a job, but as something that has to be done to save people from hell.
It does not say they can’t do it as their full time devotion. Our Lord had women providing for Him as noted in Luke 8:1-3. And I previously mentioned 2 Corinthians 11:8-9 when Paul for a time was not making tents and ministering with funds from Macedonians supporting him.
Now if you look at 1 Timothy 5 in full and notice that prior to statements about elders receiving “double honor” it notes that widows should receive “honor”. By your own view of this, that would mean a widow would have to work, maybe even more than the one who labors in the gospel. The widow is supposed to be kept by her family, or the church if no family is there to care for her, that’s “honor” in that passage of scripture. Those who labor in the gospel are worthy of “double honor”.
Having said that, again I’ll mention that Paul worked in order to set an example, that laborers in the gospel should strive not to burden anyone, however someone can labor in the gospel and receive funds to care for them without working any other job and I see no reason why the Lord would hold it against them.
Would this site even need to be, if anyone who labors in the gospel was ONLY receiving about double an average salary? If an assembly had an average salary of $30K and whoever was paid ONLY $60K to labor in the gospel, would anyone really complain? I doubt it. Many of the people we mention here are fleecing people for literally millions and using various crafty means to cover it up. In my post about the Bentley, which cost way more than someone making double any assembly’s average salary, I noted how Jamal-Harrison Bryant seems to be driving a Bentley while claiming a salary that by its self would not raise any eyebrows. But given he has a fairly extravagant lifestyle, it’s interesting to see him claim to make less than $50 a year.
Some say “double honor” is a modest salary and respect. OK, that still does not justify a Bentley. It still does not justify multi-million or over $1 million priced homes.
Let me be clear: I believe Elders should be paid. The word of God is clear about giving honor to whom honor is do. In Luke 8:1-3, it does not seem like Mary called Magdalene, Joanna and Susanna did this continuously. Full-time pastoring is fine, but how do you prove 40+ hour work week? I think we are are looking at 2 different denominators. You are referring to the Jamal Bryant’s of ministries when I am focusing on the local pastor that is looking at the mega-church pastors and trying to become like them. So they have 50-75 people and expect to live off of that flock, have a building funds, and the church should buy them a Cadillac because Jamal Bryant’s church bought him a Bentley. I am looking at the local pastor fleecing the sheep. The average income in the congregation is $25K, but 3-4 collections are taken in 1 Sunday morning service. There is no honor in that. Shepherding God’s flock is hard work, but the pastor’s salary should not surpass the average income of the flock God has given him to look over.
I don’t see pastoring as something confined to the Western cultural standard for labor. I think each assembly of saints must answer how they will honor those they feel are laboring in the gospel and are worthy of “double honor”. And those laboring will have to be found honest in communicating their actual needs to the saints.
Amen.
In defense of the many hardworking pastors out there.Pastoring/preaching is a job, a very difficult one at that. I can’t speak for all pastors
nor will I try.However I must say preaching is the easiest part of my job.The preparation of the sermon,the administration of church business,counseling,weddings etc.is all work.I dont charge for pre-marital counseling weddings or things of that nature.My cell phone is on 24 hours a day even while I am working my full-time secular job as a nurse.Guys please don’t take this as tooting my own horn.I am just trying to emphasize that I am the rule rather than the exception.Most pastors I believe are not trying to get rich or be the next big dog .They are struggling to balance home life and their God given call to minister to the Lords children.That in itself is not a easy task I covet the prayers of all of you to help me do this in a better way. I was talking to a friend of mine who was recently ordained as a associate pastor.He was full of excitement and joy which I believe was warranted. However that feeling does not last too long.The first time he counsels a couple or prays with someone who he pours his time and concern into.And those same peolple turn around and say bad things about you because you tell them the truth of God’s word and point out that they must stop the sinning.These same people then leave your church and go to the church down the road and put dirt on your name.Please understand I am not bitter or crying foul but when things like that happen it hurts.Straight up, pastoring is far from the glamorous life as many seem to think it is.It isnt for the feint of heart .In saying the things I said I would not want to be doing anything other than what I was called to do. I see frequently why Paul wrote the letters of encouragement to Timothy.I know Melvinites this site is a much needed warning beacon to the bad pastors that are out there.The benevolent dictator allows me to sometimes defend the cats out there that are truely preaching the word, loving and feeding the Lord’s people. Some may take my words and go places I did not intend.I just wanted to share that pastoring is not easy when you are trying to do it the right way ; God’s way.Peace and chicken grease
(MN: Actually, I don’t have a problem with a full time pastor. At least, I’m not willing to say that all pastors should have a full time/part time job to support themselves. The church organization should support the leader as much as they can without killing themselves or destroying their credit. )
Oh Mel I realize you were not speaking against full time pastoring.I am definietly not against it either.As our church continues to slowly grow and with the Lord’s timing and provision.I hope to pastor full-time some day.
JC, I don’t think you’ll find the majority of us distrust all or even most pastors. I don’t (though as a former pastor I may be prejudiced :wink:).
We just concentrate on the ones mostly in the media, and it seems most of THEM are pretty iffy.
jcrep32 - I hope you’ve got a good group of elders with you that can help keep too much of the burden from falling on your shoulders. As the speaking elder, other elders should be pulling some weight, a lot of weight, with other affairs.
I don’t know if it’s an American thing or what, but we seem to leave the speaking pastor as the guy doing everything and that’s not how it was done when the apostles set things up.
DTG to MN and I.C. the reason I have a problem with the term full time Pastor. Is because we can’t find anybody in the bible standing up in some building Preaching saying God called me to preach. I know that Paul was inside Of some where and the kid fell out of the window. The first that comes to mind that they used is Romans 10:14,15 is says sent not called to preach. Called is what they used to put themselves in that place we all no that. With more and more people saying God called me to pastor it will never stop. Because they have to put God in front of it to make it sound right. I want to know what happen to making disciple of men and not after there building names or themselves. For the good hearted pastor who is not like the bad one. You still must mature them away from you no matter what. These pastors for the most part think that the sheep is theirs because what it says to Peter feed “MY” sheep. The Money issue is to me is not an issue because we don’t see nobody getting paid to preach. If the people would see that they are disciple of Christ and not of some pastor it would change but that’s not going to happen with the big pimps and little pimps out there. We all no about Ephesians 4:11 he could have been talking about the Old Testament here but lets not go down that road Again. This pastoral ship I believe comes from the “Catholics” mindset Not from a bible understanding of what leadership was. Let’s look at these People today and compare with the verses like 1Peter 5:5 there is a talk of
Submitting all of you but don’t hold your breath. This is the verse that says it
All 2 Corinthians 1:24 “we don’t have dominion” over your Faith boy do they have it. I can hear them saying you go to this building I’m your pastor. The priest and the fathers of the Catholics buildings want to rule there Peoples faith and so does the pastor in our day. I never hear a Catholics making disciples of men after Christ but after themselves. If someone uses Ephesians 4:11 it’s sad because there “JOB” is to mature the believer not Until they die in their buildings. Why don’t they ever get fired? For not maturing the people they say God called them to preach to. Please I’m
Not even talking about the smooth talking pimps. Please guys don’t use Hebrews 13:7 back to 1 Peter 5:3 there is a misunderstanding of what “rule” means. If they are not in it for Maturing them then God could not have sent them!! And I’m not a pastor basher it’s out of context my friends and I didn’t forget about the good ones they don’t stop the context of leadership.
What scriptual reference are you standing on in regards to your “mature them away” idea.I
believe Msamu feels the same way.And in prior posts he was unable to biblically justify that position.Also no true shepherd rules over the flock he serves them.This is not a catholic idea but a biblical one.
To Jcrep32 the reference comes from Ephesians 4:12 perfecting is to Mature them. Next up is verse Ephesians 4:13 and of the knowledge of the son of God unto a “perfect man” Greek is 5046 of the fullness of Christ. By the way it’s not an ideal of mine. Let me ask you a question how he serves them what by preaching. When I used the term Catholics it’s was to show how People want to rule their faith. You just read my blog about it. What’s a biblical one? The pastor thing show me in the bible not who you think was one.
here, here DTG, comment’s please! guy’s site some scripture to back up your point.
DTG,Thanks for the response.Regarding to the scriptures you cited. I truely believe you have read into the text to justify your personal choice.Ephesians 4 is speaking of a ongoing process of maturing and growing into the image of Christ.Neither one of us has reached a level where we dont need continual teaching and instruction.The measuring rod is Jesus and I know I’m not there.As noted here: Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: These described positions are to assist in the process of perfecting or maturing of the saints.I think the problem with some pastors is that they feel that the perfecting process of teaching, edifying etc.Is something that they must do alone.In other words only pastors have the God given authority to help saints grow and mature.That is far from the truth.You can not show me in these scriptures or any others that a person reaches a higher plain of spiritual maturity. That enables him to no longer need Godly instuction. Whether it come from a pastor /elder fellow saint etc.Now as to your second question. The word elder is synonomous with pastor or bishop in the new testament.I think these scriptures suffice as to how a pastor is to serve the people.
Pe 5:1 ΒΆ The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
1Pe 5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight [thereof], not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
1Pe 5:3 Neither as being lords over [God’s] heritage, but being ensamples to the flock
As you know the shepherds took care of the needs of the sheep, leading them, protecting them from harm even helping them diseaes and ailments they may have.Now as related to today and pastoring.The pastor as the shepherd must lead people to spiritual nourishment and teach them how to feed themselves.Through the Word and the guidance of the Holy Ghost. That my friend is service.Especially when dealing with many different types of people ie:former buddhists
skeptics,people who have been exposed to bad doctrine etc..To encourage people to read their word and not rely on TBN for their spiritual growth that also is service. Oh well I just realized I’m rambling and better stop now.
jcrep32:
“Neither one of us has reached a level where we don’t need continual teaching and instruction”
Your above comment is sad; life is an ever learning experience; the learning process never ceases till we die, just as our walk in Christ. Please explain why is it you think believers need to be in a controlled environment to “continually” learn? While you search the scripture’s!
I think you’ve missed the point jcrep32; obviously you have yet to raise children of your own. Learning does not cease when you put the books down, it just begins the real life application of the learning process. “Train up a child when he is young and when he matures he will not depart,” of the many responsibilities of the body one is to train another to release another limit control. Human beings learn from their experiences as well as in a controlled environment, as we apply the lessons learned in the class room of our infancy our daily lifes will force the believer to make needed adjustments as the spirit of truth “brings all things to their remembrance” the believer becomes with experiences better able to deal with life as well as their success but more importantly our failures. This fundamental principle in human behavior produces a mature man and woman of God as well as in life. Sadly your logic not only restricts and limits the learning process it denies the pupil the opportunity to grow and to know God outside of the controlled learning environment. The Spirit of God that every true believer has that has been properly equipped by the word must now rely solely on the Word of God as its guide and not as much on man when discerning God’s intentions in and for their life, this does not mean a mature believer should not seek council or prayer or fellowship, it just means the Spirit of God in the believer is growing mightily as the Word of God produces in the believer maturity. Amen
I know site scripture, Ok I will
See the BIBLE you’ll have to start from the beginning and read it till the end, It’s in their
Can you cite Scriptures that tell us “mature” folks are to leave congregations rather than stay and disciple new believers?? Any examples or doctrine that explicitly teach this?? It rather seems that Paul in Timothy and Titus show us that the “mature” should take leadership positions within the local church (elders, deacons,bishops, etc).
You say it’s “in there”. I can’t find it.
Covesch, I’m sorry you didn’t totally get or understand my last post. I never intended to convey the idea that believers only learning comes from behind the pulpit or as you say a “controlled learning enviroment”.I t’s so funny to me that you can take one post and determine that I have no kids (got three) and then go on to give me your best Obi Wan Kenobi impression as regards to life and it’s lessons.
Well anyway let me do my best to make my position clear. A pastor is not Lord , Daddy, boss, king, big poppa or source of all things spiritual. He assists the believer in his/her spiritual walk and journey toward becoming more and more like the Christ and not himself. This is not a job that is his exclusively of course. Other saints’ situations, tests,trials and temptations work to the perfecting of the saints. Ultimately its the Holy Ghost inside of every believer that is to lead and govern our lives. As I said earlier a pastor/elder/shepherd should teach the people he serves to feed themselves.
You read so much into my last post that I had to make sure you were adressing me. You Msamu and your boy DTG (the preterists oh I mean covenant evolutionists, ebonicists or whatever) will all ways have extremely different, off views as far as I am concerned because you believe that Jesus has already returned. I guess in my opinion, that unblical view clouds most of the things you brothers say.
May the force be with you.
Well said GaryV Msamu and crew have yet to show one and I mean one scripture to support their “mature one out stance”. Listen fellas Pauls letters were written to churches ie:1-2 Corinthians ,Galatians,Ephesians etc.
There were both mature and babes in these fellowships. The mature helped the babes grow, a body of saints helping one another.
Oh wait a minute my grey hair on my chin is maturing at this very moment it’s too “mature.” Its pulling itself from my face and leaving… farewell.
Do you get my sarcasm Msamu crew? The mature saints should not leave the fellowship but help other saints. Just as the grey hairs on my chin haven’t left my body but stay and enhance the already handsome, suave-looking brother that I am. Just take my word for it (Well me and my wife’s word. Ok my mother’s word too, and that’s it.)
(MN: Derrick - this is your last posting on this thread. Three reasons:
1. Your arguments are so poor
2. Your spelling is so poor
3. Your postings are so long.
If you do better, I’ll reconsider. But for now - give it a rest. )
To Jcrep32 You gave me back Ephesians 4:11, 12 you are here to assist people I agree total with “that” assist. Now that they have there own “BIBLES” now not like back then they didn’t have There own bibles it’s not the same. This is the problem now we have our own bibles so things have change. Ephesians 4:13 the perfect man has to happens since we are to assist onto that point it has to happen some day. Hebrews 5: 11 only the “dull of hearing needs to assist forever not the full of age” 5:12 tells you of that person is the one still on “milk” not everybody please this is a traditions statement that “we” use on people not to grow up “IN” Christ and eat meat. So we can keep them as babes until they die. Hebrews 5:13 we are to assist them off of the milk that’s the sent “men” of then and now. Just like in the natural we humans can’t understand when a grown “man” can’t stand On his on two feet. We say something is wrong with that picture he’s a “grown” man don’t we. I just read you and Gary stuff so we will continually Go down this road with your no proof please give one verse of the PASTOR not Ephesians 4:11, oh I forgot you already did. You gave Ephesians but that is tired trying to justified you self or any body else.