(MN: As a preface to the article, and to keep us from going in too wide a circle too many times, I will allow you to comment on this article, and to comment back and forth until Wednesday evening. My reason? Neither side is going to convince the other that their view is the right one. And while I do want discussion [discussion usually forces the defender to think his or her position through more clearly], I do not want repetition or elevated … animosity. Talk as much as you are interested. I will likely put a new posting out Monday or Tuesday.
Also, I did not do much in the way of editing this posting other than some format issues. But even those I tried to leave as they were presented. When I write, the format is sometimes a part of the very structure of the argument. I didn’t want to impact that.
I also promised not to make any comments on the contents when it is published. However, I do maintain the right to say that I disagree with what is being said and do not believe it effectively demonstrates the Preterist position that Jesus Christ has already returned.
Have a good read. )
I remember when I came to the Lord; I asked my pastor how does one understand Scripture? He told me that God was a personal God and that He wanted to deal personally with me. He also said that I should read the scriptures (primarily New Testament) as if God was talking to me. I did as he advised, approaching the Bible with the mindset of God talking directly to me. I applied the promises, gifts and judgments personally. The promises were for me as well as the gifts, and judgment would SOON come on the world. I continued believing this but had serious issues with the Church; the lack of unity concerned me more then the lack of the gifts. I put down all the books, lexicons and commentaries and began to pray. As I began to read my Bible again, I changed my approach. I would now read it from the vantage point of the people that were living at the time the words in the New Testament were spoken and written. This new approach changed the way I now understand scripture. I remember saying to my good friend “I think we missed it, I think we missed Jesus”. He gave me a strange look and immediately changed the subject. I did not press the issue because at the time I mentioned it to him, I did not fully understand what I meant myself. My good friend’s wife challenged him to refute my statement. As we began to study the Word, approaching it from the view point of WHO JESUS WAS TALKING TO- it became clear, and logical that Jesus was talking to his contemporaries and not to me or to us today. Below are some of the questions we asked ourselves. I only ask that you would ask yourselves the same questions to see: what’s the logical conclusion.
The Old Testament is the story of God’s promises to his convent people. Throughout its pages the reader can find promise after promise from God concerning his convent people, all of which are fulfilled in the Gospels. Is the Bible a Christian document? Was it written to Christians or by Christians? Its promises and prophecies were all to be fulfilled by Christ to God’s covenant people; this is inclusive of the judgment upon the nation of Israel in the known world then. Acts 3:19-25. verse 25 states(YE are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with OUR fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.) Deut. 18:18 ” I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.” It’s clear from the passage that Christ would speak to “them”. The prophecies in the Old Testament were not directed at a global audience but to the covenant people of God. Jesus was the last prophet to the Jews and their rejection of the very God that had covenant with them would ultimately bring about a new age, an age that would bring about the justification of all mankind by faith John 1:12-13.
We’ll begin our discussion by dealing with certain words and their particular meanings. Let’s look at the words soon or near. When we talk to somebody and we say to them “I’ll be there soon” or “I’m near”, what is meant by these statements? The logical conclusion is that I’m at, within, or a short distance or time away. For some reason when Jesus Christ or the apostles used the same phrases for obvious reasons, we challenge the clear meaning of their words. So I ask you, when does soon mean later, and near mean far?
Next, we see the words “shortly” and “delay”. If you said to someone, “I’ll be back shortly” or “I will be there without delay” would you say this knowing that you really mean an unspecified time? Would you say these words and not expect people to believe what you were saying? So I’ll ask again, when does shortly, or with out delay really mean an unspecified time?
What about the words “all” and “this”; if you were to tell someone all of this is mine, would you mean some of it belongs to you but some belongs to someone else? When does all, mean some and this mean that?
And lastly, to use the phrase “at hand” implies near in time or place: within reach. How do we know it’s going to rain? If we see nimbostratus clouds we know rain is near, so what’s the logical conclusion? It WILL rain.
Let’s apply this same logic to the scriptures listed below. As we review them, we need to honestly ask ourselves if they were intended for us. As we read, the questions WHO, WHAT and WHY beg to be answered.
From the bible: Matthew 4:17 (Jesus said the kingdom was AT HAND, did he know what he was talking about?) Mat 10:23(WHO is being persecuted here- US or Them? WHO was told to flee? Are WE going to go over the cities of Israel?) Matt 16:27-28 who’s standing there? Matt. 24:20(WHY were THEY told to pray that their flight be not on the SABBATH)? Could fleeing on the Sabbath arouse suspicion?) Matt. 24:34 (WHAT generation?) Mark: 9:1(surely these people are not still living, so THEY had to have seen the kingdom of God come with power) Luke 21:28(Whose redemption was drawing NEAR? ) 31-32(again, WHAT generation is he referring to?) Philippians 4:5 (a reminder that the lord was near) 2Thess. 2:1-2 (is Peter giving the believers false hope?) 3:5 (why be patient waiting for Christ if he wasn’t coming in their time?) Hebrews10:25 (they were assembling because they SAW WHAT DAY approaching) Heb10:36-39 (will not tarry and did not tarry) James 5:7-8 (was the coming of the Lord REALLY drawing near?) 1 Peter 1:7, 4:7 (all things are at hand). Revelation1:1(what MUST SHORTLY come to pass? what does shortly mean here?) Rev 1:3(what “TIME” is at Hand? Did this mean it was near, or afar off?) Rev 1:19 (did ‘hereafter’ mean a long time?) Rev. 22:6 (what were the things which “MUST SHORTLY BE DONE”?) Rev 22:10(John was told NOT to seal the prophecy because the time was AT HAND, WHAT TIME was at hand?) Lastly, REV. 22:20 (Jesus says SURELY I COME QUICKLY) did he mean it? Surely, (no doubt) I come quickly. Did Jesus give them false hope?
Because we weren’t there when all these things transpired between Jesus and the first century church, many of us tend to doubt that the events spoken about really happened in THEIR time period even though it’s easy to see how all of the preceding verses could (and Do) rightfully apply to them. Because we don’t see the evidence of Jesus’ return many can’t bring themselves to BELIEVE that Jesus’ return actually happened.
Therefore, it’s important that we understand the faith required of a Christian and how doubting is a sign of unbelief. A prime example of someone who doubted Jesus’ words is the disciple Thomas. (He doubted that Christ resurrected, even though he said he would) The gospel of John 20:24-31 records the incident and Jesus’ response.
John 20:25 “the other disciples therefore said unto him, we have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: [then] came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace [be] unto you. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust [it] into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed. And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
The key statement is “blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.” This profound statement still speaks to us today. We must not be like Thomas demanding proof of Jesus. God cannot lie and we cannot pick and choose which of his words we will believe. Let us continue to grow in our faith. We already astound the world because we have a document that while the originals are no longer around, we trust that the copies we do have are accurate and detail the most spectacular event in history. We believe the Almighty God stepped off his throne, impregnated a chaste virgin, lived as a man perfectly and sinless, did miraculous wonders, was then put to death by his own creation, raised himself from the dead, and sat down next to his father in heaven. Let’s just think about this for a moment. To the faithless, this is absurd, unbelievable, nonsense and utter foolishness. But to us who Believe, it is the power of God unto salvation. We are challenged every day in exercising our faith. I’m not talking about the pseudo-faith of the current word-of-faith movement. We are not little gods with the power to speak something from nothing. The faith I’m referring to is the faith explained in Hebrews the 11th chapter found in the only document we have that validates our beliefs. Since we trust the bible to be the very Word of God, we are blessed because although we haven’t seen, yet we still believe.
Whenever someone talks about their belief that Jesus has already come, others label them false teachers. But, this should not be the case just because their view of eschatology is different from those who subscribe to the teaching that Jesus is yet to come. There are clear statements made by Jesus that we as believers simply can’t ignore. We trust Christ because the bible says he was found to be without sin. Let’s consider some more words spoken by our Lord and Savior that we need to give an honest answer to.
Verily I say unto you, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. (Matt. 16:28)
Logic would dictate that within the lifetime of the people listening to Jesus, some of them would be witnesses of the “Son of man coming in his kingdom”. His coming would bring the final judgment upon Israel. Israel’s judgment was an integral part of Christ’s message. It is said, we cannot prove Jesus came, however, his words were plain which included a specific time frame- “some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they (who is the they) see the Son of man coming in his kingdom”. Do we need to explain away this statement as some indefinite future event, or can we accept by faith that Jesus appeared to the “some, that were standing there” just as he said he would? I know that some believers tend to trust the headings written at the top of the verses separating certain thoughts, but the headings aren’t inspired and were added later on by the translators. The new King James Bible puts Christ’s statement in verse 28 under the heading of The Transfiguration. Some believe that when Jesus transfigured before Peter, James and John that that was the son of man coming in his kingdom. How can this be when Jesus told them in Matt.17:9 “Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead?” If this was indeed Christ coming in his kingdom, why would he not want them to tell it? Matt.10:23 also record’s a specific timing for the coming of the son of man. “But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. Who were the (ye) that Jesus was addressing? Is it us today? Are we the ones that are supposed to be going over the cities of Israel? Once again, let’s change our approach to how we understand time specific statements made by Jesus to see whether he actually meant what he was saying to the crowd he addressed 2000 years ago.
The only evidence we can supply are the words of Christ and the prophets. Sola scriptura should be sufficient proof for any believer. There are those who’ll say this type of exegeses takes away the Christian’s hope. This of course is nonsense. It should give the believer an even greater assurance and hope since we know that Jesus kept his promises to those he spoke to! We can boldly proclaim that Jesus appeared just like he said he would! This truth would help to keep false teachers from setting dates of Christ’s supposed return, and would encourage apathetic Christians to get involved in the world to make positive changes since their eyes won’t see Jesus until they die. We should rejoice in our Lord for he is true to his word! Judgment and redemption has been completed. God has kept his promise to Abraham, avenged the prophets, defeated the last enemy; put the devil under his feet. The world has been liberated, Christ has returned all to his Father and all has been fulfilled.
“When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that [is] the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, [but] the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
There over one hundred scriptures dealing with Christ’s 2nd coming. All of them are directed at the generation living at the time his words were recorded. We must ask ourselves is Christ a liar? Was he the giver of false hope? The emphatic answer is NO! If you were standing there with Christ in the 1st century, who would you think he was speaking to? We already know what the answer is. In Titus 2:13 we read about looking for the blessed hope. We must ask ourselves why would they be looking for the blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ if it were not something they expected to happen. You’ll no doubt ask, if all of this was for the 1st century Jews what’s for us? What’s for us is the great gift of salvation and the promise of eternal life which will be for all believers for generations and generations to come. This is our blessed hope!
The bible is a book of faith; we walk by faith, we’re justified by faith and we’ve all heard preaching on the champions of faith in Hebrews the 11th chapter. Trusting in Christ and believing what he said is what Christianity is all about. Even if the lack of evidence challenges our reasoning we must stand on faith because without faith, it’s impossible to please God. Jesus Christ decides what truth is, Man’s VIEWS should not determine truth.
A final thought to consider would be Daniel’s vision. (Dan. Chapters 9-12) He was told to shut up the words, and SEAL the book even to the time of the end (not the end of time).Dan. 12:4, 9. Compare this with John’s revelation where an angel told him NOT to SEAL up the prophecy for the time IS at hand. Rev. 22:10 what’s meant by the time IS AT HAND? Are we supposed to believe this 2000 year gap means, at hand? Study Daniel’s vision and John’s prophecy to see how they correlate to each other. I submit to you that the Christ of the bible is the Christ that kept his promises to his covenant people. Prov. 13:12 “hope deferred maketh a heart sick: but when the desire cometh, it is a tree of life”. Jesus didn’t defer their hope and he doesn’t defer ours either. His coming for them does not exclude us or future generations from the promise of eternity with him when we depart this life. To conclude, we will hold to sola scriptura. We don’t need to see the evidence of Jesus walking on water, raising Lazarus from the dead, an empty tomb, or anything else to believe it was done. We trust the word of God.
There are two paths we can take. We can hold that it is utterly impossible that the historic Church has been teaching a grievous eschatological error for nearly 2,000 years. Or we can concede the possibility that it has.
If we deny the possibility, then we base our position on absolutely nothing other than an arbitrary, man-made rule (that the Creeds cannot contain a significant error).
But if we concede the possibility of eschatological, creedal error, then we are left with only one course of action: To search the Scriptures nobly for a deciding judgment for or against covenant eschatology. Acts 17:11
See what’s free at AOL.com.
And finally this post has been setup here, so it can be rightfully knocked down. I’ve never seen a good display of the Preterist position, because their position has no foundation in fact, period.
So let’s get right into this and be done with it.
First, it was always known that the entire world would benefit from the seed of Abraham, not just the Jews, Genesis 12:3. Which is why Jesus came for the sins of all, not just the Jews.
I’ll continue to detail this for a moment, to show Christ’s coming was not just about the Jews.
Psalm 118:21-23 - It was foretold that Jesus would be rejected by the builders, the Jews. And he would be the cornerstone for salvation.
Isaiah 8:13-15 - Foretold that Jews would stumble regarding Him.
Jeremiah 31:31-34 - Foretelling of a new covenant with the Jews and it was also foretold that he would be Lord NOT JUST FOR THE JEWS BUT THE ENTIRE WORLD TO THE ENDS OF THE EARTH, Psalm 2:7-8. We can’t deny that the Lord is Lord over the entire world, not just the Middle East and this was foretold. That he would come, offer redemption and be Lord for all, not just Israel.
While the term “world” might have been within the realm of their vantage point for some matters, that was NOT the case with Jesus Christ.
See, Psalm 37. We’re still waiting for that which was mentioned to come soon in that scripture (and even with that Jesus did not come in flesh till many generations later) and the wicked are to be gone after a “little while”.
If you had followed the pattern from even the OT prophesies you’d never ask this question and already know that “short” is not always what you would expect, but that all that is promised is always fulfilled as God sees fit to deem “short” to be.
Uh no! You’ve applied this logic to make your conclusion, but your conclusion fails to meet the facts. Soon does not mean it has to meet your view of “soon”.
This “generation”, aside from meaning a race of people (which I know you disagree with, despite the word in Greek having various meanings) could also mean the generation of the righteous, Psalm 14:5.
Regarding Mark 9:1, they also saw Jesus after His resurrection. They also received the Holy Spirit. Some even had visions of Christ’s 2nd coming.
You ask about scripture like Luke 21:28, but never show that anyone actually experienced Luke 21:27. Who has seen the coming of the Lord outside of visions of it occurring? You’ve made the claim this already occurred, so the burden is on you to show this to us.
Nope.
Maybe you doubt, given the things mentioned to occur have not happened yet? We have PROOF Jesus came and died for our sins then was resurrected, but we have NO PROOF of your claims Jesus came a 2nd time already. People sell bridges in Brooklyn off the kind of “faith” you’re saying one should have, better known as scams. Faith with no actual verification what so ever. We know Jesus came the first time and have proof of it all. You’ve got NOTHING to prove your claims.
If he already made the 2nd pass as you claim, give us the account of that. We have the account in scripture of Jesus going the first time. We don’t beleive without any scripture or witness at all. You come to us with a theory that has NO WITNESS.
You make it seem as if the Holy Spirit played no role in this at all. And as if the Father played no role either.
For good reason. You mislead people to think they are at a point that they are not in. Anyone who claims Christ is not risen is deemed false, anyone who claims Christ has not yet come to die for sins is deemed false, so why would anyone who claims Christ’s 2nd coming already occurred be treated any differently? You claim a move of God that is not true. That has not yet happened. You and others have made up your own new doctrine, claiming you’re in an age that you’re not in.
Now given you feel Jesus already returned, there IS A HOST of matters that WOULD HAVE EVEN HISTORICAL RECORD and you need to either show they occurred, or stop this contrived invention and accept that “soon” can have a 2000, 3000 or even longer gap, as the Lord deems sufficient!
Revelation 11 speaks of 2 witnesses coming before the Lord’s return. They are told to have great power and would minister for over 3 years. They can stop rain from falling, turn waters to blood and strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they desire. The Anti-christ (the beast you folks claim was Nero) is supposed to kill them, nobody else will be able to do so and all who try before that will be doomed in their efforts. After the Anti-christ kills the two great witnesses, their dead bodies will lie in the street for 3.5 days and people of all nations will witness their dead bodies and refuse to have them put in a tomb. Sinners will rejoice in their death. Then God will raise them up and they will go into Heaven in a cloud while their enemies watch! And just after that in that hour a great earthquake occurs which kills 7,000 people.
These events are too great to never have been recorded. They have never been recorded by anyone, because they never occured. If you think Jesus already came for the 2nd pass, tell us the names of these 2 great witnesses and the recorded details of their deeds? The whole world will know of them. By your view of things they’ve already come, so tell us about them? What about the quake that killed 7,000, tell us about that? You can’t. None of it has occurred yet.
IC thanks for your comments, is faith exercised by what we can see and prove? Science discounts the existences of God for the very same reason, since God cannot be proven to exist (for no man has seen him) science clams he does not exists, they don’t care what the Bible said. The secular evidence you seek to validate the bibles claims can be found in such historian’s writings as Josephus-The war of the Jews or Origen, Tacitus, Seneca, Clement of Alexandra.
IC Remember this is Jesus Christ the man that claimed to be the son of God, the very word that created all things speaking directly to his contemporary’s the words we read today,
Please answer this question, if you were a believer standing in the front of Christ the day he spoke these word’s what would you think,
“Verily I say unto you, there is some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.”
Remember IC your standing in front of him as he is speaking (God not a man),
what would you think?
I know God exists because I exists.
If the two witnesses came and prophesied for over 3 years, surely they wrote something. We have nothing from them, because they have not yet come.
I’m not searching Al Capone’s vault when I already know it’s empty. Witnesses are supposed to bear “witness” and we have nothing from those who are supposed to come before Christ’s return. If you have proof of them, please show it to us.
I’d think Msamu needs to come up with some actual answers to my previous questions. Please show actual proof of the two witnesses and other events that were noted in my original question to you.
I’ve already addressed Mark 9:1. Now let’s move this discussion forward instead of the usual circular debate. Please offer proof, actual proof to address the questions that have already been asked of you.
And you are already seeing from some other comments, there are a slew of other matters that would need to have occurred. Some have not even been asked about yet. For now, just offer verification of what has already been asked.
When the Bereans were told Christ had come and risen from the dead, they searched the scriptures to cross check Paul’s words. We know there was actual evidence of Christ coming, fulfilling scripture and the empty tomb. You say Christ has come again, you’ve got to show the scriptures were fulfilled.
The book of Revelation and the Gospels are the only proof God has given concerning Christ 2nd coming, your issue is with God and Det 18:22
Christ said he wouldn’t terry, John told the religious leaders that the time was at hand, Paul stated that the Gospel has indeed gone through out all the world,
Tyr this exercise
Question: do Christians go immediately to Heaven upon physical death?
If you answered YES then has the biblically termed LAST DAY occurred yet?
Please read
John 6:39-40
John 6:44
John 6:54
Again has the LAST DAY occurred yet? If not how can anyone be “raised up” or even in Heaven? It’s contradictory for people to claim people go to heaven upon physical death if the last day has not yet occurred. Covenant Eschatology contents that the last day has occurred. Please read Mat 24:14 and Mat 28 19-20. Pay close attention to what JESUS says about the END. Notice he doesn’t say end of the World but rather end of the AGE.
What AGE is JESUS talking about? Covenant Eschatology says that the end of the age was the end of the old Jewish system; the Jewish Temple and all that went along with it. The JESUS established a New Covenant (testament) age. Thus, the LAST DAY was the end of the old covenant. So now every Christian from the time of the LAST DAY onward, upon death go Immediately to be with the Lord
I.C. First go get yourself a history book and look it up for yourself please. If you read something from history you wouldn’t believe it any way thee of little faith. like I said You guys “Don’t” have one I mean “one” Sign that Jesus is COMING please give me one sign. Because these have to happen before he comes. Maybe you was thier to “see” Matt 26:64,65 so you can prove with the high priest that it didn’t happen. I can’t answer all of your mess at one time. But one I do like is Luke 21:28 look up for what and why sike Jesus I”m only kidding, I”M just playing around you know I Jesus did this in the hole new testament I didn’t mean nothing I said to YOU GUYS so why are you shock.
Checked, didn’t find them. Now if you know about it, tell us. As I said before:
But you say:
I believe scripture. I don’t believe people who resort to ad hominem responses.
You know most of us here already saw enough scripture twisting with the pimps. Thanks for a really lame discussion.
IC I never twist anything my freind in scripture.
please don’t you “ever” put me in the class with them pimps. IF you can’t “take it” don’t Blog
please tell MN that you resign. Just because we don’t see the same thing I didn’t put you in that class. Watch because I have held Back some stuff from the Hound!! that I thought it is better of not saying. Once again if you can’t take it, and start with the name calling maybe this isn’t for you. By the way why don’t you try Josephus. Like we said to the rest. When was the last time any body read 2 peter 3:4 and ask “you” and mock you. Because after 40yrs
they were all over “them” it’s not the same is it.
Because we can Just say any day Now. But they may want more than just the brush off words any day now or soon. You wouldn’t understand your not save stuff.
DTG and MSAMU,
Great post. Christ has fulfilled all His promises. I hope more will continue to study the Scripture and reconsider their eschatological view in light of what Scripture has clearly taught.
Hi. To be quite honest, I didn’t read this persons’ theory fully… it just stopped making any sense after a while. My question is why he/she totally skimmed over Matthew 24. Based on that chapter alone, it seems clear of which generation Jesus was addressing. And it seems apparent that the situations/ occurrences (signs) that Jesus gave of his “coming, and of the end of the world” are still happening and some have yet to be fulfilled. For example, the reference to the false prophets and false christs. And verse 14: “And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.” Are you saying this has been fulfilled? In this chapter, I don’t think Jesus was talking about the generation living among him… it seems that he was clearly describing a future generation. And I thought Jesus’ second coming was the final chapter, the great renewal, heaven on earth, etc. Where are we then–in hell?
But it’s OK, I guess. We can believe what we want as long as we believe in Jesus. He didn’t say we had to accept his second coming… just that he was born, died and raised from the dead. It’ll be a great treat for those who believe he’s already come. …And a great shocker for the followers of Judaism when he comes… ‘for the first time.’
Anyway, what’s free at AOL.com?
“Anonymous” you typed:
I guess. We can believe what we want as long as we believe in Jesus. He didn’t say we had to accept his second coming… just that he was born, died and raised from the dead
Please say you were kidding! Please!
Anonymous: Please try reading not as if he’s talking to you but to the generation before him, why would they believe anything else, this was God with them. Just try it once, it’s an experiment you won’t lose your salvation
I get the feeling that the point of this post was to say “We believe this because we believe this and if you had faith you would not need evidence!”
Gentlemen (Msamu and DTG) on what date did Jesus return? What about the 1000 year reign? What about the tribulation? What about the locust with womens hair and lions teeth and iron breastplates and the sound of chariots in their wings and scorpions tails? According to your view this all took place already in some way. Where is the evidence?
Come on guys, you made us wait for weeks and this was the best you could do? I mean barring my usual quibble over grammar and such, where is the substance? I give up on you two, really!
Lord Lawrence D god of all understanding, you got it Bro. that’s the best we can do, it’s just a command sense approach to scripture, not rock science; no harm done you can keep waiting for jesus
Msamu,
In order to communicate effectively, one must communicate clearly so that the one who hears can also understand. I’ve berated (my words not yours) you about your grammar time and time again. For the most part it was because I had to struggle to understand what you were trying to say. Now I would admonish you to study grammar because I realize it is affecting your understanding of scripture.
Since in the past you have rejected a study of Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew and also theological training, all in the name of what you call “faith”, I will go along with that if you would at least make an effort to learn reading comprehension and phonics. It would help a lot. You will even know the difference between “command” sense and common sense. And the difference between “rock” science and rocket science.
This goes for you too DTG. Since you have chosen the road of the unlearned also, I suggest these same things to you. I’m quite sure that your manifold errors in grammar also translate into a poor understanding of scripture. I would agree that this “understanding of grammar” is not the one key issue but it does help.
In Pity and Love!
To BLD with the “grammar” remarks over and over is not helping your cause in understanding
the bible. I pity the Fool who “STANDS” on his
so-called bible school you need pity my friend.
WE ALL HAVE THE GREEK,HEBREW, words today. WHY DO YOU TALK TO PEOPLE IN ENGLISH IN THE BIBLE. What is the purpose for the english bible. YOUR education has BLINDED your MIND!!! with all of that education
you still don’t get it do you. HOW smart we seem how lost we are in the bible, maybe I shoudn’t say in the bible. But with the
greek the hebrew the theological training you
should go and get your MONEY from what ever school you went to. Because with “ALL” your
getting Get “understanding” which seem to have slip you some were in school. I would never pay for somebody to teach me wrong but this is the big thing to do today. Hear it is, with all the smarts we are in the worst shape it looks like in 2000yrs and counting. I fell sorry for those poor lay members quotes you put on those poor people. By the way are you a pastor-want-to-be-leader are you. Last thing for you is this and “ME” is 1COR 13:2. I hope this doesn’t offend you. I’m Done you can have the last Blog to tell me about my errors so you can lean back in your chair and say how does this man think he can teach me anything do he no who I am. LORD OF ALL UNDERSTANDING!! but I think not. By the way when you open your
school you know I need help in all. I’ll sign up if your not down with the PIMPS using mind games. last one I kept thinking of stuff they were unlearned but fill with the HOLY GHOST WOW that doesn’t sound like SCHOOL to Me but maybe I got it wrong again or another error or didn’t communicate it right from the bible.
DTG,
Surprise, surprise! I’ve never been to bible school, seminary, etc. I wouldn’t know where one was within 100 miles of my home. What I do know is the alphabet (that the abc’s), phonics, grammar, etc.
By the way, the bible only says that the Apostles were unlearned in other languages and dialects and even then it wasnt’ God speaking, it was the men who heard them on the day of Pentecost. Everywhere else in the Gospels we see the words “And Jesus began to teach them…”, “And Jesus taught them saying…”. I expected you to miss this in the scriptures as you’ve done most other things. GOD NEVER PUT A PREMIUM ON IGNORANCE!!!
DTG you asked this: WHY DO YOU TALK TO PEOPLE IN ENGLISH IN THE BIBLE.
I would love to answer this for you but I only have one problem… I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about!
Forget bible school, try elementary school!
We tried to show you guys Heb 11:1 but when you are stuck on something like on the word “evidance” please show what you have. What “evidance” that you have of the bible “things” that happen Nothing so why ask me or msamu for something. We have what you have that is FAITH that’s it. Can you answer some of the post about any of the verses that we used. Remember we look at it from their side who heared him Jesus talk as well as sending the disciples out to teach the same thing. Let me give you one so you can explain it to me. What do you think they were thinking? When they heard this in HEBREWS 10:36,37 when are “they” gonna receive those promise please tell me. Next Heb 10:37 HE who’s HE that shall come “WILL” COME AND NOT TARRY no delay. Did that mean WHENEVER!!! YOU have to do better to convince yourself of what you believe on this subject not me all msamu. You have to come out of the box of churchanity thinking. I Never said anything about Jesus or the bible so lets kept that in mind please. We were ready for people to say you took my hope away, why do “we” still take communion,what about us in everything selfish type of thinking. I know you didn’t say that but it will come up. Revelation could be talk about. But my freind these things can take a long time. MN said this want be long and I understand that about this subject. Not saying I want talk about it. Because we took the book of Rev and made it fit our times. Question woudn’t you be made if you were still waiting like them. They were told to hang in there He’s coming very soon to them. All we every say is “Soon” he’s coming. It’s not getting tired it is tired
to me. When is the last time somebody question you
about Jesus return reading 2 Peter 3:4 mocking you
about what our Jesus said. It took them forthy years
and they jump all over them about Jesus coming. We
can just brush them of and say soon he’s coming i’m
telling you better get ready.
DTG,
Did you just use Hebrews 11:1 to say that you don’t need evidence? (not evidance by the way) Come on man, the word evidence is in the scripture itself! “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE of things not seen.”. You guys make this too easy! Also, isn’t it “heard” not heared?
LORD LAWRENCE D, your so correct, the edidence is the Revelation of John the last statement made is
He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly.
what does quickly mean ?
To BLD maybe I’m lost here? AGAIN what “evidence” do you have WHAT!!! please “show” me that the red sea was open and killed those people back then. Show me were Jesus walk on water do you have this outside of the bible. For the resurrection at Jesus coming please explain 1Cor 15:52 WOW
that’s quick. why don’t you blink blink to see how fast. Who to you was ready to take snapshots of this back then my freind please tell me. Oh’ I forgot maybe TIM Lahaye. The “evidence” reading from thier side they didn’t have any. The other people who was preach to about his coming. Not the apostles but “all” the other people didn’t have any “evidence” that HE was “COMING”
my brother they just believed the teachings.
SO that kills your evidance STUFF. Again my friend those people didn’t have the big E any to show that JESUS was coming. Evidence like
you want me to show you, and he wasn’t talking to me hear anyway. Heb 11:1 but now we believed what was written.
There are some discussions I am simply NOT hip to…this one being one of them. As far as I can gather a “preterist” believes Jesus has already returned, right? If that is the case, what of believers today? Is He returned a second time?
Hay Christopher have you every asked
What about the believers he was talking too did they believe him?
The first problem we should have with the preterist view is that it came from the Catholic Church!!!!! Plus, most of the end-time prophetic manifestations will involve this same Catholic Church when the Lord judges the world!! You definitely are “green behind the ears” when it comes to exegetical study. I think your pastor failed to tell you to NEVER take another’s word for scriptural interpretation!! Jesus spoke of this in Revelations 2:2. The same Catholic Church fulfills Paul’s prophetic words in 1 Timothy 4. Have you read these words?? They will forbid to marry, make the people to abstain from meats and worst of all they discourage the people from reading and understanding the Bible for themselves. Paul even said in verse 16 of this chapter, ” Take heed unto THYSELF, and unto the DOCTRINE; CONTINUE in them: for in doing this THOU shall both SAVE THYSELF and THEM the HEAR THEE.” It seems you “Can’t see the forest for the trees”. Also, how do you explain away 2 Timothy chapter 3?? How about 2 Timothy 2:16-18?? Chapter 4 warns us of a time when the church will not endure sound doctrine; do you see this happening RIGHT NOW?? The very end, from my understanding, will be like the “Days of Noah”. Dude, open your eyes and look around you; this is the prevalent attitude of this present age!! I am only trying to exhort you, not beat you down but you need to study for yourself and quit leaning on the words of other men. This world is full of “watchers” warning His people of the impending judgments and if you are in the mindset that “all is well” you will be in for the “RUDEST AWAKENING” that a man can get!! I definitely wouldn’t want to have all of my eggs in the same basket as yours.. Do yourself a big favor, do a word search on the origin of the preterist view and “Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines…” Hebrews 13:9. I could seriously go on and on and on with scriptures showing the “popular opinion” of the last days such as the prosperity gospel. This in itself taught by Jude should show us that we are indeed seeing these things fulfilled in our lifetime. I am not saying it will happen while I am or am not on this earth, but to say it happened almost 2000 years ago is denial!! Do your own homework and don’t ride the coattails of others before you. I’m not a scripture guru, but if I have a doubt or question a teaching, I go to the scriptures; simple as that. What if they are wrong?? Hope you find the truth Bro!!!
In Christ,
Buckstah
buckstah: Sorry you disagree, but you’re not disagreeing with me I didn’t say the words in RED, God did.
ask your self this,
your a believer standing in the front of Christ the day he spoke these word’s, what would you think,
“Verily I say unto you, there is some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.”
I must say Msamu this post explains alot regarding your prior posts. Now I dont feel guilty for thinking most of the other things you say are full of error and based upon personal opinion and not scripture. Look man you and those that think like you have basically eliminated the need for the majority of new testament.
Should I not partake in communion anymore since it was to be done until Christ’s return? 1Cr 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come. Are the episltes not for us now? Or just some of them and if so which ones?
Is satan bound ? If he is that eliminates the need for the armor of God .What about the jews when as described in Romans 11 many of them will return back to God.Man you and DTG are just like the two guys Paul described 2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.Some versions of these scriptures use the word gangrene or cancer instead of canker.This teaching is just as dangerous and harmful as either one of those diseases. You are false teachers.I always felt Msamu you had a hidden agenda.With your “trust no man” church isnt necessary ideas now I see clearly where you are coming from. I dont expect you to respond to everything I said. I am quite sure their will be others who will do a better job than I breaking down your incorrect position. (sorry Mel my keyboard skills are weak like Msamu’s and DTG’s paper)
First thats up to you my freind about communion. what your not reading he wasn’t talking to you about communion. For the armor of God, please explain Romans 16:20. Your flesh will always be with you my freind. The renmnant did return to God. Show me were they didn’t? I knew this sad statement about hymenaeus and philetus would come up. My freind I and msamu were not living
2oooyrs ago sorry so that want work. We never told
you to lose your faith. Our agenda is not hidden it’s
up to you to study for your self. Please prove to
why you think Jesus is coming for you now in the future with no signs off his coming.
jcrep32 - Although they are on a most shaky foundation, I must explain what they seem unable to do themselves. 2 Timothy 2:18 mentions “saying that the resurrection has already happened”, but not in the context you’re thinking of. That verse of scripture’s context is best explained in 1 Corinthians 15:12. There was a cult movement going on mostly in Corinth, where people were saying that after Jesus there was no more raising of the dead. As in, they treated Christianity as a matter of changing to improve one’s lifestyle and well being on earth. They felt once physical death came, that you had no access to eternal life. Not what DTG and Msamu are trying to present.
Anyway, they’re never going to answer your questions because something that has not occurred can’t be given answers. So you’ll continue to see spin, questions in response to your questions and so on.
Thanks I.C I realize the scriptures I cited are not in the proper context as related to Msamu’s and DTG paper. I was just pointing out the potential danger related to false teaching.Perhaps I should of used a different portion of scripture.However I do appreciate the input though.By the way DTG the 1 Corinthian scripture I used earlier IS related to communion. Paul is reminding and correcting the Corinthian church about the proper manner in which they are to partake in communion.Start reading at verse 20 it should be pretty clear.I was merely pointing out that according to you guys since Jesus has already
come that makes verse 26 moot.Also what the heck is a covenant eschatologist? Man I tell you we as human beings really complicate things with are theories and positions ie:calvanism,pre trib,post trib preterist’s etc. The beauty of the gospel is it’s simplicity.That a divine God would allow filthy disgusting men and women to partake in his divine holy nature via his son Jesus Christ.That he would call me son even though I clearly dont deserve it.Now that is just awesome and incredible.All these other silly debates we partake in is evidence enough that when man puts his goofy mind in the mix we sure mess things up.The Lord clearly is gracious and I thank him everyday for it.
Well, the article is too lengthy to address in the way I usually prefer………point-by-point.
I believe I can condense my objections down to this (though there are numerous other objections)…….IF Christ returned in 70AD, then the burden of proof lies in history. In other words, Jesus gave specific signs that would accompany His appearing. These signs are of a terrestrial nature. IF these visible sign did not accompany the destruction of the Temple in 70AD, your case falls without addressing the numerous other objections that should be considered.
Let’s see the signs that the Bible says will accompany Christ’s Return. I will purposely exclude those that preterists like to spiritualize away.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
(GV) ALL the world, and ALL nations will hear the Gospel first. Even today, this has not been accomplished.
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
(GV) Was the destruction of the Jewish Temple in 70AD the greatest tribulation since the beginning of the world, and greater than any future tribulation that EVER occurs again?? You have to ignore a LOT of history to draw that conclusion.
I would submit that the flood was FAR greater tribulation than 70AD. Only 8 left alive on earth, the entire ecology of the planet permanently altered, the mass extinction of animals, the entire earth covered with water for a whole year. That seems a tad more severe than the destruction of a city and Temple.
I know the counter argument……….”We’re only talking about the Jews. Noah wasn’t a Jew.”
OK………..how about the Jewish Holocaust?? 1 million Jews died in 70AD. 6 million in WWII, along with their persecution and murder ever since.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
(GV) In order for preterism to be true, Jesus’ Return MUST have been secret, because no one saw Him. There are no reports of Jesus Christ being seen in 70AD. However, this verse states that His return would be like a lightning bolt that pierces the sky from “east to west”, or around the world. Did that happen?? Did the whole world know of it?? No.
The physical (NOT spiritual or invisible) manner of Jesus’ Return was described by angels in Acts 1:9-11.
Act 1:9 ¶ And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
(GV) Now, preterists like to say clouds represent judgement, not actual clouds in 70AD. They like to say that Jesus’ Return in 70AD wasn’t PHYSICAL but a return in visiting judgment upon Jerusalem.
However, if we read this passage, that becomes problematic. The angels saud explicitly that Jesus would return “in LIKE MANNER” as the disciples saw Him go up. Look up “in like manner”. It means literally in THIS manner, or in THAT manner. In other words, in the same manner in which they just saw Him ascend.
Now………..did He PHYSICALLY and VISIBLY ascend in front of the disciples?? Yes. Did He PHYSICALLY and VISIBLY return in 70 AD??? NO. So, how was His invisible, non-physical return in 70AD “in like manner” as the disciples saw Him ascend??
Let’s not forget that the very Book you say has already occurred says the same thing……….
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
(GV) HOW many eyes SEE Him?? Every eye. When did ALL kindreds of the earth wail because they saw Christ in AD70?? Didn’t happen.
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
(GV) Again……….ALL the earth SEES Him, and they ALL MOURN when they SEE Him?? 70AD?? NO.
Zec 14:1 ¶ Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle;
(GV) Were all nations gathered against Jerusalem, or just Rome??
and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 ¶ Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
(GV) The Mount of Olives never cleaved in two opening the springs that geology tells us run beneath it. 70AD?? No.
Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
(GV) Did this happen to the Roman Legions?? No. This verse tells us that the invaders will be destroyed. Were they?? No, Jerusalem was.
Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
(GV) Has THIS happened?? Are all the nations going up to keep Tabernacles at Jerusalem since 70AD?? No.
Zec 14:17 And it shall be, [that] whoso will not come up of [all] the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
(GV) Well then, NO ONE should have rain, because no one is doing this.
Anyway, I’ve addressed this in greater length in the past, and don’t wish to do so again. As Melvin said, it will change neither minds nor eternal destiny. There are simply too many internal contradictions with the text to suit me.
Okay GaryV, this is totally off topic.
I honestly, again, haven’t read this whole post YET, but one day….You GOTTA teach me that point by point thing. I may not agree with everything you say, but you are definitely thorough.
When can I get my first lesson? I’m serious.
D.
Pre/Post trib?
I too do not believe in the preterist view. Jesus will clearly return and Israel becoming a nation is like a sign post of what is coming soon. However, that being said for those who are awaiting Christ’s return do you think it will be a Pre-trib or a Post-trib.
Kyle
Preterists seem to believe the Bible indulges in circular logic when it comes to the 2nd coming. Whereas His first coming was written of by eyewitnesses. As a matter of fact, the entire New Testament is written by eyewitnesses of this first coming. If God thought it crucial to provide eyewitnesses who were privy to “many infallible proofs” of Jesus’ life, suffering, physical resurrection and ascension, why did He provide none for the most world-changing event ever predicted: His second coming?
Another HUGE problem I have with preterism is how our personal resurrections fit in. According to their view, when will our bodies be raised incorruptible from their graves?
Third, If Jesus has physically returned what is His current address?
Finally read this post. I never knew that this is what a preterist believed. I had read that preterist believe that the prophecies in the bible had already come to pass, but not that Jesus had already returned.
If Jesus has already returned, what’s the point of following Him now? Kind of a rhetorical question, but not one at the same time.
Its always interesting to see how the bible can be used as the basis for so many unbiblical conclusions. The Nazis used the bible to justify the murder of millions of Jews, American slaveowners used it to justify kidnapping and enslaving millions of Africans, the pimps use it to justify the robbing of millions of believers through tithing and seed faith giving, etc., etc., etc. the list goes on and on.
If this is the whole of preterist beliefs, the foundation is very unstable and easily debunked.
Sorry guys (Msamu and DTG)
Well danny, this is just my opinion, but I think like with the other cases you’ve cited, this (preterist view) is used to suit the goals of those who made it up. Unfortunately some folks fall for it.
With the preterist (or even Covenant Eschatologist) view, it’s really easy to give modern day Israel the cold shoulder. And I think that plays a role in this. Before Israel was established again, it was easy to explain it away with the preterist view, that there does not need to be any Israel established. Now, that view can be used to justify ignoring any conflicts in that region.
Respects to you MN, were not trying to support a Preterist point of view, I’m not a Preterist I’m a Covenant Eschatologist as you can read we never addressed the AD.70 point we choose to leave it out, were attempting to challenge the Christian to think out of their dogma and apply their faith. I believe their hope will not be seen by us MN; but it’s ok if you wait
When I was living in New York City, once living in a neighborhood called Crown Heights, you would see a bunch of Hasidic Jews going into their synagogues, but they would have posters and signs of some old white man in a black suit and hat, just like them and they called him the Messiah. This old man died some time ago and I think they named him Mesiach, I am not sure. The Rev. Jesse Jackson, as some of you may remember, called New York City Hymietown. Some of you may have heard of this neighborhood for it gained national attention because of a certain incident that happened, but I’ll stick to the topic of discussion. Jesus said that in these last days, there would be false Christs and it is evident that they have fulfilled this prophecy. If Christ had returned the second time, then the sheeps would be separated from the goats, the wheat from the tares, cast into everlasting damnation. You would see Christ and so many of his soldier angels for Christ said he is not coming with peace, but with a sword, bringing judgment and bloodshed. Also, there would be a new heaven and new earth as described in Rev 21. In other words, if Christ came back, we would all know it for all eyes shall see him. You will never know how soon Christ will return for it is not for you to know. It is not even for Him to know, not even the angels until the Father gives him the go ahead. In the meantime, you do see signs of His coming, because many events that has happened in this new age has lined up with scripture and to expect more to come. There is something else to consider. Read and think about the passage “because thou hast seen me, thou has believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed. God honors your faith in Him. If you have to see it to believe it, then it’s not faith. Heb 11 are examples of faith. In the meantime until His second coming, all we have is our faith and His word to stand on, plus the Comforter.
To all
All we can say is 2Peter 3:4, while we wait for your answer.
All we asked was that you to read the scriptures from a different vantage point, putting yourself in the place of Christ’s contemporaries, did you try it NO! you just lock and loaded, how can you understand the point were making, remember the gospels were not the gospels to Christ’s contemporaries they were privileged to stand before God in the flesh and believe the words we spoke them, what you’re saying is that Christ didn’t mean what he said, but to us 2000 years later it’s very clear. The witness you seek is Revelations that’s the recording of this great event, John’s account in the spirit of the coming of Christ in judgment. No gaps
Like James Brown said can somebody please, please, please answer Rev 22:10
hay Gary you can just cut and paste your response
One more day to go
God Bless
To Gary V and the rest of my friends. We don’t have to prove anything to you. Because you can’t prove anything to us so please let’s stop playing games with that. To start with I’m Glad you mention AD70 because we didn’t. I can mention your Doctrine AD-when-ever-theory!!! Better yet no time doctrine. Here are some of the things you don’t have. 1 no temple Maybe Rob parsley can help you get it built. No 2 were is the high Priest to see Him Matthew 26:64. Also This body of people is not on one Accord so please He want be back for another 2000yrs. No 3 were are the sings from heaven you have none. No 4 were is the fig tree he was talking to them about. Now the Signs that they where told to look out for. Where are any of them now? Please show me one just one. Once again you can’t mix unbelief with faith. And Try to come up with a remedy it’s not going to add up. Next can YOU prove that the signs in Ad70 didn’t happen and how? My case stands from Jump Street because at least I have the Temple around to discuss the signs that he told them to look for. You to make your AD what ever numbers fit in. You have to wait for Them Muslim to get off of your spot that’s not happening to least get a temple. Gary we already went over this Matthew 24:14 the “was preach to every Creature under haven in Colossians 1:23 also Romans 10;18 answer it again their sounds “went not going to” all the earth and their words unto the ENDS of the “world” for you the Greek 3625 The Roman Empire. To add to that Luke 2:1 that all the world. The problem is your thinking about today it’s already done!!! Matthew 24:21 first Gray this what make me upset with the hole thing I believe in everything Jesus says then turn around and say wait a minute Jesus words don’t fit my view. So He must have meant something else. Said something is wrong please give me a break. So when Jesus Who created you say world “to this time” he doesn’t no what he’s Talking about because he could not see the future. Nor ever shall be, it’s sad I’m following the Christ and he doesn’t know what he talking about but you do. I can only stick with the master on things that happen in the world he talks about. Gary this is getting old as I read on. Matthew 24:27 Gary the roman world again not ours brother. Who was looking for him first, who seen the disciple leave when they saw the signs is that reported no But do you believe they left it Gary. ACTS 1:11 ye men of Galilee not “Americans” this same Jesus which was taken up from “YOU” Not us sorry as “you” have seen. The point is this Gary shall So come in like manner as YE them not “us” have seen go into Heaven. “YE” is not “you” so you don’t know how Jesus went to Heaven. Because you wasn’t standing their “gazing up” were You I don’t think so. I’m tried of this verse like one of you people Was there so you can pin point how he look. Next REV 1:7 every Eye of that time Gary. You would have to be their to have seen it. Next is Zec 14:2 is answer in Rev 17:15 to18 that great city is not now. This was done with Rome They gave their kingdom unto the “beast” for God hath put in their hearts to “Fulfill his Will” so Jerusalem is not that great City “today” so stop trying to make it that place please. Next You didn’t talk about none of the verses that we talk about accept one Rev1:7 I think so correct me if I”M wrong. All the verses You didn’t say any thing about my favorite one Hebrews 10:37 Gary this is hard to get away from. Rev 22:10 can one of you guy’s say something about this verse. This is sad what about the “time” verses.
(MN: Make sure y’all get everything out that you want to. Tomorrow evening I shut down the discussion. )
Derrick, you’re a good brother. I don’t agree with you here,and you don’t agree with me always (why IS that anyway??) but you know we’re cool.
to Dgt,Msamu Explain Matthew 16:28 in more detail. who are the “some”. Well you’re right , He wasn’t talking to us.(mt.16:24 “Then said Jesus unto [HIS] disciples”). So, the “some” will be his disciples who will not taste death. Show me the evidence.Oh, my bad, no evidence. What Jesus says is true, that his disciples would not taste death until they see Him coming in His kingdom. The problem is, all the disciples died, except for John, before AD 70. So then I ask, who are the “some”.
To They call me bishop:
I’m not sure who died when, all I know is that none of them are alive today, so who’s left to see him comming in his kingdom ?