I won’t write a great deal this time around. The previous posting said it all. But I want you to see what foolishness is perpetrated by church leaders who have no substance to preach with respect to the Gospel. I suspect these poor men and women in the audience (I really can’t think of them as a congregation) are ill-equipped to resist the lure of Pulpit Pimps. Their pastor should be taken out and flogged.
Let me make sure I understand this. The fellow cutting the rug is under the influence of the Spirit - he is supposedly “filled with the Spirt,” perhaps even drunk with the Spirit. But one has to wonder how this relates to Ephesians 5:18 through most of chapter 6 where Paul explains what being filled with the Spirit looks like in the believer’s life. I don’t really remember seeing cutting the rug as one of the items.
He did, however, talk about husbands loving their wives sacrificially, wives obeying and respecting their husbands (even if they are oafs and clods), children being obedient to their parents, and a lot of other boring, day-to-day stuff. But no place does he mention cutting the rug.
I guess I could pull out David dancing in the street when the Ark was recovered, but somehow, this just doesn’t seem to compare to that.
I have to admit though, that the man in the white coat, and the one behind him, could probably do well on “Dancing with the Stars.”
I just did something I don’t blieve I have ever done in a posting before. Yochee sent a clip in response to this posting in its original. It was so on the money, I had to post it as a follow on to Jumping Jack Flash.
Listen to what McArthur says about preaching to men.
So, are you willing to die on a hill for God’s truth?
I think the preacher is Derrick Triplet from Daytona Beach. He taught at bible study for ET where we took 3 collections and had all of the men in the audience who were secretly jealous of Jamal come to the altar and repent.
This was the day Mike became Mike former ET member.
wow! glad that you split the scene!!
lol, man i don’t know why everything is so funny today…. I’m pretty sure after they repented they had to give a *peace* offering for their wickedness, huh?
Oh……….NO DOUBT!!! The peace offering had to be SUBSTANTIAL to appease the wrath of a vengeful God. After all, what else but MONEY could placate such a wrathful Deity??
You all may not know this because you rely on the dead letter of the Bible, rather than the Powah O’ Da Spirit like me.
But de Holy Spirit lit up mah spiritual eyeballs (while I was spinnin’ ’round and jumpin’ and prayin’ in dem tongues during the third Bless Da Mand of Gawd offering) that Judas really had it right fo shizzle. God was willin to let Jesus off on the whole cross thing for the right price.
God was expecting Judas to barter for Him on the downlow with the Temple Priests (after all, God’s a Jew). What does Judas do??? He takes the FIRST OFFER!!! 30 lousy pieces of silver. Whazzup wit DAT?? Here’s God looking to slap some flossy silver spinners on His chariot, and Judas settles for somethin’ can’t even plate the gearshift.
Well, when Judas came to God with that wack offering, God opened a can of WhoopHiney on him, and Judas went and hung hisself.
See what happens when ya bring the coin to Gawd and hold back da dead Prez ?? It don’t mean a thing if ya don’t bring the bling. You feel me??
Thanks Gary V, you just gave me my sermon for the up coming week!!!
p.s. shhhhhh!!( i hope you didn’t copyright that, i don’t want to give people the impression that i’m not lead by the Spirit to preach the word)
*cough, cough* Eddie Long *cough, cough*
GaryV,
Don’t you just love the EX Super Charismatic/WoF/Prosperity Gospel/Hyper Pentecostals like you, I, and many others. Fortunately I didn’t have to learn the hard way. In fact I walked away from my COGIC church I attended here in upstate NY for other reasons than the pimping. During my exodus the Lord began to show me the truth like never before. Over time he has opened my eyes wider and wider to the truth. I am grateful that Melvin had the courage and calling to put this site up on the net. As we are seeing the small and mid size Pimps have already began to crawl out of the woodwork and come on this site. I am waiting for the day when one of the Big Dogs comes here and attempts to challenge us.
Kyle
No need to challenge you, just going to let the blind lead the blind.
WORLD CHANGERS CHURCH INTERNATIONAL, INC. DBA CREFLO DOLLAR MINISTRIES (”WCCI/CDM”)
Creflo is that you?
If it’s Creflo, obviously he knows better than to even attempt bringing his twisted doctrine around here.
He knows life more abundantly is a spiritual promise, not a physical one, but he lies and attempts to claim it’s for his personal gain. Then he claims to wonder why other Christians don’t get rich and claims “oh you just need to get your love right” while fleecing them via networks like TBN!
God is real and Creflo will learn that he’s unable to pay the price for the crimes he’s committing in the spirit.
I don’t agree with some things of one of the giants Martin Luther; however, this one I do “Unity if possible; truth at all costs”! Some hills are not as important as others but “The Hill of Biblical Truth” is and not forcefully taking the hill will lead to losing a war and I will tell you we in Christiandom are fighting a war that we may just be losing, evident by teachers I used to respect partnering with these wolves.
This is not a “war” that is won or lost by volume, but rather you holding to the truth till the end. 2 Thessalonians 2 offers details that these kinds of things would come to past. It is not us “losing” but rather the fulfillment of scripture. And we are only in the warm up for the real mess. Wait till the Real Anti-christ comes and can actually perform verifiable healings and other neat tricks! Imagine if Benny Hinn really could heal the masses of people that go to see him? Would anyone care that his doctrine is false? We are just in the warm-up for the real deal. It’s going to get worse and a remnant always seems to get it right.
Satan is setting himself up as God via false doctrine and he’s going to have masses of people following him.
I’m in the process of viewing the DVD set titled “The Signs and Wonders Movement Exposed”. I’m half way through it, just finished disk 1 of 2. I can tell you that it is a video set you all really should pick up.
I was just thinking about that point today. What about supernatural pimps and why not do some segments on them? You have one side the extreme Bob Larson who’s crazy butt got yanked from Christian tv at least. Then you have people saying you have to send out to them to get a cloth to get healed. I would like to know about people who deal in the “real” supernatural and not a bunch of trendy spooky stuff.
Danharr,
The most extreme example of such a thing is St. Mathews Church. This is the place that sends out prayer towels, portraits of Jesus, and other crazy things and claims thing like,” just put this under you pillow tonight and your blessings will be fulfilled the next day”. And wouldn’t you just know it that they also have the “seed offering” you can send in. I suggest you find a way to send 5 or 10 bucks to these guys just so you can get their mailings. They are a real scream.
What is even more shocking is the fact that there isn’t even a St. Mathews Church. Its just a building where they process all the money you send in. This guy is worth millions and millions of dollars with absolutely little to no effort. Here is an article below which ties this St. Mathews Church to non other than scam artist Robert Tilton and Oral Roberts. BTW Oral Roberts has been on Benny Hinns program and TBN. Oh the web they weave.
http://george.loper.org/trends/2003/Apr/815.html
Kyle
As I have been reviewing certain YouTube clips,(something clicked inside my brain)I’ve noticed everytime those magical organ riffs are played,numerous people begin to dance mindlessly to this beat driven music.
The participant’s body jerks and dances wildly to the drummers beat of this “holy” music.Being reared in the Baptist faith,I would like to know where did this type of dancing and worship comes from?Who is the real author of this wild dancing, and why are the muscians (organist/et al.) waiting on the pastor’s keywords: 1..2…3… Go!
This is something that I have noticed everytime a clip is played.I do not mean to offend those that participate in this worship, but I just want to know the origin.I’ve heard some ministers call it “standing in a “Congo line!”Yes, that sounds racist but I guess those men never seen such dancing before.What do you guys feel about dancing in the spirit?
(MN: I used to attend First Baptist Church of Glenarden, pastored by John K. Jenkins. The process was very predictable there as well. Wind ‘em up! Wind ‘em up! Wind ‘em up! Let ‘em go! Mr. Organ man please. )
(MN: I used to attend First Baptist Church of Glenarden, pastored by John K. Jenkins. The process was very predictable there as well. Wind ‘em up! Wind ‘em up! Wind ‘em up! Let ‘em go! Mr. Organ man please. )
what is the name of this on youtube because i want to send to my former church
(MN: Click on the link again and the browser will take you to the clip on YouTube. )
Oh yes, I spent many a service watching the dancers and sometimes dancing myself. Your right, the organ always plays just like that! When my son tried out to play the bass the first thing the music director ask was Can you play Shout music. That’s what it’s called, Shout Music. My son did good on the Shout music and he played bass till he left for college. But they use the Shout music to drum up that reaction in folk. That’s why it was so important for the band to know the Shout music. Otherwise no reaction from the people.
I don’t see anything wrong with dancing or rejoicing in the Lord. We have no dea what that young man has been through or what he is going through. So those who sit still with their legs crossed and arms folded are true worshippers because they seem to be more dignified than the rest?
I would not want to attend a church where the congregation just sat there as if they were at a board meeting. Why would you say that the pastor needed to be flogged?
This is a short clip of someone dancing. We did not hear the entire message. Don’t assume that the congregation is not well equipped. I don’t see where you are going with this?
*sigh* not the “too dignified” and “you don’t know what I’ve/he’s/she’s been through” babble…Just because someone doesn’t do what the guy in this video is doing does not mean that they think they are too good to do it. The point is, WHY is the person doing it? Where is it written, demonstrated or even implied IN THE BIBLE, that this type of behavior is caused by the Holy Spirit? There is nothing wrong with emotion, but what happened to things being done “decent and in order?” If you want to dance, run, spit, fall out, faint, etc., then do it AT HOME. I mean…I cry out before the Lord…in private. It’s not because I’m ashamed of my Savior, but because I’m trying to be obedient to his word concerning public shows of piety…It feeds pride and self righteousness….Not to mention that anytime I DID dance in church, I was totally in the flesh and it was for all the wrong reasons (long story, but praise God for his faithfulness and patience)…
It’s corporate worship for crying out loud. Not the Pookie show. Sit down!!! Plant it!!! Let’s worship our God in UNITY. I’m hungry for preaching and singing psalms and hymns to our holy God when I go to corporate worship, not waiting for people to finish dancing. WRONG FOCUS. It takes the focus off of the true reason we go. God is the audience of our worship. He is the focal point. Not Pookie in the front row, dancing and shouting for like 15 minutes. Displays like these only serve as distractions…be honest…they do…
Again, just because a person is sitting quietly doesn’t mean they don’t have the Holy Spirit. If they are anything like me, they are waiting for the histrionics to stop and for the pastor to get to the main course–God’s Holy Word…THAT is what get’s me hyped. Not an organ and bunch of tired cliches’.
sorry if it’s too long Mr. Jones….
Correct me if i’m wrong but doesn’t the concept of holy dance come from the traditions of the Hebrews and their praise ceremonies to God?
Derrick, the Word COMMANDS (not suggests) that things be done decently and in order in the Body. (1Cor 14:40)
The entire 14th chapter of 1 Corinthians is DEVOTED to PREVENTING precisely what that video clip demonstrates. That man is NOT being compelled by the Holy Spirit to electric slide up and down the carpet,or else the Holy Spirit is a liar. In the very same chapter the Holy Spirit through Paul states clearly…….
1Cr 14:26 ¶ How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
(GV)Now Derrick, I think we can agree that Paul here is speaking of those whom the Spirit of God has given some doctrine, or tongue, or revelation, right?? Let’s see how he commands these things to be handled.
1Cr 14:27 If any man speak in an [unknown] tongue, [let it be] by two, or at the most [by] three, and [that] by course; and let one interpret.
1Cr 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
(GV)Now, here we have Paul admonishing someone being moved upon by the Spirit to keep silent if the message cannot be presented decently and in order.
But is that what we are told by today’s church culture?? NO……….we are told that when the Spirit moves on someone, they CAN’T HELP how they respond. If they gotta dance and shout, they gotta dance and shout. If they got a tongue, they gotta blurt it out. If they gotta Word, the Body is gonna hear it. Can’t help it. But the Bible contradicts that in the verses we just read, as well as the next verses.
1Cr 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
(GV)Prophets……….. another example of the Spirit moving upon someone for exhortation, edification, and comfort of the Body. What does Paul say here?? That the spirits of the prophet is subject to possession by the Holy Spirit, and the prophet can’t help what he does?? NO. The Word clearly states that even when the Spirit is indeed moving upon a person, that person does NOT lose control. The prophet’s spirit, even when moved upon by the Holy Spirit, is under the control of the prophet.
Nowhere in the New Testament do we have an example where the Holy Spirit possesses someone, wresting control from them and rendering them incapable of responsibility for their actions.
Therefore, if WE are always in control of our actions, we are responsible to obey the injunction that everything in the service be done decently and in order. Instead, what we have is folks who DISOBEY that command, then BLAME THE HOLY SPIRIT for forcing them to break the very command He gave.
This final verse is very instructive as well.
1Cr 14:33 For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
Now, the Greek word translated “confusion” here is “akatastasia”, meaning instability, disorder, confusion.
Can you tell me that what we saw on that video did NOT bring instability, disorder, and confusion??
To get an even better sense of what the Holy Spirit is trying to convey, it’s always instructive to reference Young’s Literal Translation of the Bible. Rather than a simple word definition, Young’s takes into account grammatical factors in the structure of the verse to give an even more accurate rendering. It’s a literal word for word translation. Here’s what Young’s says…….
“For God is NOT a God of tumult ”
tu·mult (tū’mŭlt’, tyū’-)
1. The din and commotion of a great crowd.
2.
1. A disorderly commotion or disturbance.
2. A tempestuous uprising; a riot.
3. Agitation of the mind or emotions
Now, this verse clearly states that God is NOT THE AUTHOR (or originator) of ANYTHING in the church assembly that has these characteristics…….
Instability, disorderliness, confusion, tumult, din (loud, discordant noises),tempestuous rioting, or agitated minds and emotions.
(GV) What IS God the author of, according to this verse?? Peace. From the Greek “eirēnē”, meaning…
1) a state of national (or corporate) tranquillity
Anything “tranquil” about that church service??
Derrick, you’re simply caught up in the common “churchianity” of our age. We were ALL there brother. It’s time to let the Word be our guide, rather than following along the path to apostasy.
No one is suggesting that you should be emotionally detatched. What God has done for us in Christ SHOULD touch our emotions. HOWEVER, there is no license Biblically for what is being done in that clip and across the majority of congregations today. It is in fact FORBIDDEN by the very Holy Spirit they claim “moved them”.
Nothing in this video is out of order. You have two men dancing. Did they run up on the altar and do backflips? Did they jump over pews? In this short clip, what did they do that was disorderly?
(MN: Uh, yes. They were in the aisles dancing around and bring attention on themselves. With your standard, why would doing backflips be a bad thing? Why would running up to the podium be bad? Why is doing anything out of order. Couldn’t they have also rummaged around the place and growled like gorillas? Or maybe they could have stood in the aisle ans screamed like a banshee. Why would any of these things have been wrong? )
Agreed like most things in life you have people with two extreme agenda’s and no middle ground. Some folks see dancing, like prosperity, and say ah that’s bad without any further context. Then you have people who say all you do to please the lord is dance.
I agree Danharr……….I don’t think everyone who lets out a shout, or raises hands, or whatever is necessarily not led of the Spirit. But when it gets to the point where that video goes, it’s NOT of the Spirit or else the Spirit is violating His own Word.
That man is NOT being controlled by the Spirit, nor is he following the Spirit’s commandment.
Gary,
I guess David would be out of place in your cult ….I mean church. Who are you to dictate how one should worship God, until you die for our sin please hush , for the more you type you show your ignorance.
(MN: No one is dictating anything. If you want to jump up in church, shouting and whirling around while the preacher is preaching, you’re certainly free to do so. However, in that environment, where you are the only one doing this, it would quickly become apparent that it’s not of God. Unfortunately, most of the places we see dervish dances are in places that present nothing but shouting, dancing, and emotion; places where numerous people, at their seats, in the aisles, and at the foot of the podium are the norm. The crowd keeps the individual from looking foolish. )
Wow. David kept his emnotions in check when it was TIME to. He didn’t lose control. yes, his worship was genuine/not to mention his weeping, but it was not out of order.
2 Samuel 12:16
David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in, and lay all night upon the earth.
2 Samuel 12:19-23
19 - But when David saw that his servants whispered, David perceived that the child was dead: therefore David said unto his servants, Is the child dead? And they said, He is dead.
20 - Then David arose from the earth, and washed, and anointed [himself], and changed his apparel, and came into the house of the LORD, and worshipped: then he came to his own house; and when he required, they set bread before him, and he did eat.
21 - Then said his servants unto him, What thing [is] this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, [while it was] alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread.
22 - And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell [whether] GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
23 - But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.
Interestingly enough King David himself curbed his emotions even regarding death and weeping when the state of affairs was inevitable. He exerted control of his emotions, not being beside himself, which would bring to light that he was aware & sound in mind to do so….as many are today.
This scripture also brings to light (although off the subj matter) purgatory and praying for dead loved ones. If King David did not even do it and drew a conclusion….why would others deem there to be such a thing???
It is something else to listen to people like John McArthur. If you have been involved in “certain” type of churches, you almost feel guilty if you are not shouting and jumping around all crazy. Sometimes I don’t know what to believe anymore because when you studied the Bible for yourself it seems as if your interpertation is not the correct interpertation. and that GOD gives the MAN of GOD the words we need. If these people are teaching false doctrine, then a web site like this needs to be getting a lot more exposure to people inside this churches.
I don’t agree with people shouting and dancing to get a new building or material gain. I do believe that if God has done anything for you (healed your body,opened a door for you,healed your marriage,etc), there is nothing wrong with you dancing. David danced before the Lord. (MN: I told you this would be presented to justify the clip. )
The Body of Christ is so EDUCATED and DIGNIFIED now. Dancng and worshipping God is beneath them. A lot of people want to come to church, stay for no longer than 30-45 minutes and go on with their day. Very few people believe in sanctification and holiness. (MN: And how, exactly, does jumping around like Jumping Jack Flash accomplish that? )
I am a second generation COGIC member. We are a great church (in spite of the remarks posted on this website). I do not agree with every COGIC preacher (but who agrees with everything?) (MN: On what basis do you disagree with them? Because of your feelings? Because you like it or don’t like it? ) I support the overall values and mission of the church. We have great outreach programs across the globe. We are in the community (for the most part). We believe in the freedom of worship. Worship is not to be restrained (if so, point it out scripturally). (MN: John 4:23- 24 - We are to worship God in spirit and in truth, not prompted by Shout Music. )
Hey Mr. Moore.
I would ask you, why is worship now encompassed by some type of excited behavior? Is not inviting my neighbor over for dinner worship, what about reading my bible, is that worship? What about going to the nursing home and taking flowers and praying with the elderly? Is that not worship.
It is wierd but the only NT example of that is Pentecost (and it is taking out of context, people weren’t running around foaming at the mouth, or jumping over pews). Everytime we see people worshipping together it is never this hyper display of emotion. (someone correct me if I am wrong).
So I beg the differ with you bro. As a matter of fact I would dare to say that the Holy Spirit would not spend time taking attention away from himself. Meaning, why would HE encourage us to sing a song corporately then stop singing so HE can show us how HE can make a person dance uncontrollaby?
Other examples is when a preacher is preaching (the Holy Spirit is equipping him to give a word of Exhortation) he then interrupts HIMSELF (the Holy Spirit) by getting someone to shout across the room? So he prevents HIMSELF from edifying the people of GOD by making a person go into a frenzy. My opinion however, I never see a boxer punching himself in the face to give the audience a good show!
I like what you said Mr. Woods! You see we can agree!
Excellent points….
Derrick Moore: “I support the overall values and mission of the church. We have great outreach programs across the globe. We are in the community (for the most part). We believe in the freedom of worship.”
Ok big deal!, So does the Muslims, Jehova’s Witness, Mormons,…etc. They all claim to have global outreach programs which feed the poor, clothe the naked, house the homeless, provide education. Now that doesn’t make them right in the eyes of God, does it? Now those things are good for the body, but at the end people need a teaching thats going to connect them with the true God for eternity. True worship is simply obediece to his word, not jumping and running around the church like the Indiana 500. What good does that do if you haven’t repented of your sins and lived a life of holiness?
truthofgod,
In my statement, I also stated that sanctification and holiness are essential. Obedience to God’s word is a part of true worship, but who are you to state that if someone chooses to dance or even run in the sanctuary, they are not truly worshipping God? Someone please give a step by step outline as to how a believer should act in worship!! Since I dance from time to time, it is evident that I need to learn proper church etiquette.
Ok Derrick, Lets evaluate some verses to see if they serve as a guideline:
Titus 2: 1-8
1But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:
2That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.
3The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
6Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.
7In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
8Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.
Before i go any further, i’m not saying there is anything wrong with showing emotion during service. I believe that the message of the Gospel should give us joy with in our daily lives. Yet there is surely a way to go about it in decency and order.
Now there are some key words in the passage:
-Sound
-Sober
-grave (serious)
-temperate
-patience
-discreet
-chase
-sincerity
Now Brother Derrick, how is it that we are to achieve these attributes of Godliness if we are busy running around, flipping, slobbering, speaking in some fake tongue? I’m not giving you my opinion, I’m going by the very Bible that you have my friend. And yes, I stand by my statement that Worshipping God is not running around in the sanctuary or “Clappin my hands for the Lawwwd”.
BTW, how do we dance and run around “in Spirit and in Truth”?
TOG:”…Now there are some key words in the passage:
-Sound
-Sober
-grave (serious)
-temperate
-patience
-discreet
-chase
-sincerity….”
Amen brotha. The “key words” are just THAT! The KEY to order!
truthofgod,
What does these look like to you (the list below)? I need to know because I need to see these things through your eyes since you are guaging them for me (wrong, smile)
In other words your viewpoint on these words listed below can not be measure by me nor me you. You and nobody else can place a measuring gauge on my praise and worship to God in spirit and truth. If I want to cry out I’m going to do just that, If I want to dance (shout, move my feet, wave my hands) I’m going to do just that, if your praise is to be silent than amen, I have no problem with that, If you want to cry at home in your closet so be it. If do not believe in clapping your hands than my all means… you guess it do’nt clap ……I’m not here to gauge your praise.
Furthermore the reference scripture that you have for your viewpoint is incorrect for this example. Paul was instructing Titus on what was needed for leadership he was not talking about the body, praise or worship but qualification for the selection process of Elders (leaders) that was going to be needed in that region.
By the way I could not bring up the youtube above (I’ll try later) I do believe that there are spirits in the church that just want to be seen and heard and that their actions are not of God and out of order.
- Sound
-Sober
-grave (serious)
-temperate
-patience
-discreet
-chase
-sincerity
Be Blessed/OiW
One in Worship, you are missing the point of my post. I’m not here to gauge your or any body’s praise. But the point is that what the Bible outlines as worship and what we outline as worship are two different things. We look at worship as dancing, shouting, clapping your hands, cuttin’ the rug. Yet the biblical form of worship is what was explained above. Now there are instances in the Bible where the Spirit was manifested overtly, most notably by speaking in tongues, to which the Jews thought that the believers were drunk (Acts 2:1-15). But no where did you see anyone running around, rolling on the floor, doing back flipps, laughing in the spirit. Therefore if you are going to worship (as you put it) or praise God, it must be done orderly.
Now you mentioned that the passage above was taken out of context since Paul was giving Titus instructions for leadership. Well again,the point you are missing is that he was giving instructions to leadership for what should be taught in regards to how the people should conduct themselves. Also this wasn’t just for that region, any instructions that were given where given for the whole body, not just one group of people.
While I am not agianst one praising God for themselves, there is an order and the Apostole Paul covers it. There is a time to praise, and not to.
1 Cor 14:26
How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, {EVERY ONE OF YOU} hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let ALL things be done unto edifying.
1 Cor 14:27
If any man speak in an [unknown] tongue, [let it be] by two, or at the most [by] three, and [that] by course; and let one interpret.
{I would wonder if we adhere to this today???}
1 Cor 14:28
But if there be NO INTERPRETER, LET HIM KEEP SILENCE in the church; and LET HIM SPEAK TO HIMSELF, and to God.
Paul emphasizes SILENCE if there is no interpreter, another violation of the order set.
1 Cor 14:30
If [any thing] be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
HOLD HIS PEACE. This is a SWIFT indication that when the spirit of God is upon an individual, that THEY ARE ABLE to exert self-control. This is not some uncontrollable extasy. Paul makes this clear, otherwise he wouldn’t be instructing the order for use of the gifts of the spirit. Why do we see different? Could it possibly be much flesh??
1 Cor 14:33
For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
akatastasia (confusion) - meaning a state of disorder, disturbance. How many disturbances & interruptions do we have claiming to be “the spirit”?
1 Cor 14:37
If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
The first acknowledgement here is Paul stating that if a man {or woman} think themself to be a prophet, then these instructions are to be acknowledged simply because they are from the Lord, a prophet would recognize that. The same Holy Spirit would not contradict himself in another brother.
1 Cor 14:38
But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
1 Cor 14:40
Let ALL THINGS be done decently and in order.
Perhaps this would be easier if you define “santification” and “holiness,” Mr. Moore. Can you show me how interrupting corporate worship brings on “santification” and “holiness?” Can you also show me how sitting quietly while the word is being brought forth is contradictory or counterproductive to achieving “sanctification” and “holiness?”
I guess name calling(jumping jack flash) exemplifies your spiritual maturity. Why resort to name calling if you do not understand or disagree with something? We are to worship God in spirit and truth. Everyone has their interpretation as to what “in spirit and truth” means. (MN: Unfortunately, not all the interpretations are right. After all, some people think that barking in the spirit is worshiping God. But believing something doesn’t make it right. Agreeing with Scripture makes it right. ) When the Holy Ghost “sits” upon someone, we as “believers” do not have a right to judge the authenticity of that person’s worship. If you sit still and tap your feet but I choose to dance, which one of us is worshiping in spirit and in truth. My answer would be both of us.
Right. We don’t have the right to judge, but if it contradicts the Word…which gives guidelines for church order….then it cannot fly.
I mean, I understand the fact that someone is joyful…but interrupting the Word?
The Holy Spirit testifies of God, & He cannot contradict himself…
“….God is not mocked….”
Derrick,
No where in scripture do you see such examples of people falling down and convulsing, speaking gibberish, and dancing around. This is not of God. Actions by such people are wipped into a frenzy by the music and the antics of the conductor, er uh, I mean Pastor. I guess you too would believe in the origin of such blasphemy which can be attributed to Azusa.
Kyle
Kyle,
Who are you to say what is of God? Again, if you disagree with something, that’s fine. But when you chuckle at someone who chooses to dance or is speaking in an unknown tongue, YOU are headed down a slippery path called blasphemy. You have given satan an occasion to blaspheme. Watch yourself. I know we get behind a computer or laptop and feel as though we are the final authority on what is correct. My question is, what are you doing while persons are dancing? If you spent more time during the worship service being intimate with God, you would not be able to look around and see who is dancing or shouting. (MN: So dancing and shouting are a way of being intimate with God? Is that how you develop intmacy with your wife, your friends? Intimacy with God is developed through study of the Word, hiding His Word in our hearts and meditating on it, prayer, listening quietly to what God has to say to me. Jumping around and cutting the rug may help me to lose weight, but it doesn’t help me to hear God. Remember, God is in the small still voice, not the thumping bass and growling organ. Or the shouting preacher, for that matter. ). Please let me know what church you attend since you are so set against COGIC. I would like to attend a service. GOD FORBID, if I come to your service and someone decides to dance. That would be so “common” and “classless”. I’m sure you would have to leave and align yourself with a church where people worship with “self control”. LOL.
I would disagree with you again Derrick. We can say what is of God and what isn’t and dancing uncontrolably and speaking in an unknown tongue (without an interpretation) are not of God. Please read 1 Corinthians 14 for the rules of Church gathering. As a matter of fact Paul ends it with saying if you are really spiritual then understand my words are from God. So if your dancing interrupts the service where the worship leader has received instruction from the Holy Spirit or interrputs the Pastor who the Holy Spirit is speaking through, then we have the right to say that is not of God.
What I would reiterate is the fact that this is learned behavior. I go to a church that is 85% black now and this never happens. Why? Because we don’t have a well trained organ player who plays the shout song, when he sees the crowd being worked into a frenzy, furthermore we don’t have a Pastor who uses the infllections in his voice in unison with Mr. Organ Man that would get the crowd moving. So, you may be a little wrong on this DM. We have the right to an orderly service and for non-believers who walk in, they need to hear from God not see people doing the funky chicken (by the way that is also what Paul talks about the unknown tongue “will not the non-believer say you are all mad”)
How about a definition of acceptable praise and worship since everyone is disagreeing with the COGIC guy.
(MN: A couple of people have already done this for you. However, I would add such references as Romans 12:1,2. IT goes bacl tp tje idea of being of the mind to sacrifice everything to God, to make a living sacrifice. And as the old saying goes - the trouble with a living sacrifice is that it keeps trying to crawl off the altar. Doing a two-step in church is easy. Working hard when your boss isn’t looking, respecting your husband when he acts like an oaf, or loving your children no matter how moronic they behave, are tough - and a part of worshiping God in spirit and in truth, and as a living sacrifice.
I hold my hands up in church and say “Oh yes, I love you Lord, and I even get a little teary eyed. Then I go hom and treat my wife like crap and my children like a couple of little slaves. Huh? This sounds an awful lot like Isaiah(?) talking about people’s lips and their hearts.
The “worship” they do in church is cheap. The stuff God asks for is tremendously expensive.
I still have a measure of difficulty with the concept of a Praise and Worship team, as though I have to be guided and helped along in my worship. But that’s a very minor irritant. )
Melvin
It seems to me that you have difficulty in a number of things. Seems as though everything has to be in agreement with the way Melvin feels. If not, you are an idiot,pimp,stupid,uneducated,etc. Maybe you need to check your own spirit and pray that the Lord reveal some things to you that may be out order. I still enjoy your site and agree with a number of things but with regards to worship, calling someone jumping jack flash and stating that it is unnecessary is not your place sir.
(MN: Derric, the site is what the site is. I don’t believe I have called anyone uneducated or stupid [unless it was in reference to the sheeple’s habit of showing absolutely no discernment in following the wolves]. I certainly haven’t thrown out the moniker of uneducated. I know too many college grads who put themselves under the authority of wolves like John Jenkins. I suspect your problem is the fact that I am will to say that I believe I am right and if your view disagrees with mine then I believe you are wrong. But don’t you do the same thing? If you disagree with someone don’t you think they are wrong until they convince you otherwise?
So far, you have presented nothing from Scripture to help me see that I am wrong. Should I change just because Derrick said so? )
@Derrick Coleman-Is it true that to become member of C.O.G.I.C.,you had to be born into this faith?Why is that?Have the standards changed in accepting non-related people?Can anyone become a member of the church now?Please forgive me for so many questions.
Sorry for the typo!I mean Derrick Moore.
COGIC believes that one must be “born again”. That means confess with your mouth God gave His only begotten Son so man might be saved. Repent for those sins committed by word,thought or deed. Ask God to come into your heart. We believe in sanctification(denying your flesh). We believe in Holiness(a lifestyle, not a dress code). If you are talking about being saved, you have to be willing to admit that your way of doing things has not worked and that you now submit yourself(mind,body and soul) to Christ. I don’t know what you mean by “non related people”. We are all God’s children. All people are welcome. You can become a member of any church but before you join, make sure that you are in agreement with the principles of that particular church and know the history. If you have an interest in joining a COGIC chruch, let me know what city & state you reside and I will try to locate a church in your area. Even if it is not a COGIC church, join a church where you can grow spiritually and receive the tools that will allow you to become an effective christian. I will pray for you. God bless you.
Derrick,
Slow down man. I never said that every Church let alone every COGIC church was bad. I said I don’t believe that this hyper charisma is of God. Its an opinion Derrick. I didn’t say you were going to hell. Can I not have an opinion? I never questioned your salvation. But Derrick again I have to beat this over and over again I just don’t believe it is of God. Also, I have a hard time with a Church who’s beginnings go back to the early 1900s hyper Pentecostal movement. And don’t think I single out COGIC, I also address the Assemblies of God Church. Derrick I don’t know you or your heart. That being said we can agree on two things and that is the Trinity and salvation by grace from our Lord and savior Jesus Christ. After those two things I would like you to address the questions I am about to ask. I asked these questions as a barometer of where you stand in “your” beliefs not your church. Unfortunately I asked these same questions to Pastor Stephen and he never replied. So Derrick here we go.
#1. Are you a little god?
#2. Do you believe in the law of reciprocity?
#3. When a Prophet like Kim Clement, Benny Hinn , Wanita Bynum, or even prophets that come to your local church claims a prophecy and it does NOT come to pass are they STILL true Prophets?
#4. Do you Believe that the Azusa Street Revival was of God?
#5. Do you think personal poverty is a sin and demonstrates a lack of faith as espoused by Creflo Dollar?
#6. Do you believe that with enough faith you will have health and wealth as described by those individuals often seen on TBN and others who espouse similar views?
#7. Is tithing a mandatory obligation of 10% and if so is one robbing God if he/she does not tithe?
I will await your response.
Kyle
Kyle,
Now you slow down. You are asking me to answer a laundry list of questions. I am not a little god. I am a child of God. I believe in the law of reciprocity(sowing and reaping). If someone claims they are a prophet, that prophecy SHOULD come to pass if they are a true prophet. I was not present during the Azusa Street Revival but from the footage I have seen and the accounts of believers that have gone from labor to reward, there was a great outpouring of the Holy Spirit. These are first hand accounts of those present. Why would you feel it was not of God? I do not feel personal poverty is a sin. I don’t believe that personal poverty demonstrates a lack of faith. I believe some people are poor stewards over what they have. I believe that health and wealth are subjective matters. I am wealthy because I ave a loving wife,great family and great friends. I suffer from a neurological disorder(epilepsy), but I have more than a reasonable portion of health and strength. I am believing God for a complete healing but even if I suffer from this disorder for the rest of my life, He is still God and I love Him the same. “Many are the afflictions of the righteous but the Lord delivereth him from them all”. Tithing is mandatory. Leviticus 27:30. I know, that is Old Testament. Jesus came to fulfill the Law,not abolish it. We can go rond and round. If you don’t want to tithe, it is your choice. You have to stand before God and give an account. So by all means, do as you feel lead to do.
Here is a good summation of tithe for the New testament believer.
Thank you for the reply!I am already a born again believer in Jesus Christ, and again I thank you for those words of encouragement.I guess I will log off now because I have more questions about the church,but I do not wish to stir up anger and confusion with you.I will leave you with these final questions(I promise I will stop bothering you),why is it necessary for COGIC’s members to speak with other tongues?Brother Derrick,I’m going to tell you the truth.when I watch those people dance uncontrollably,I get frightened at the sight of their praise,maybe I’m being closed-minded about the dance.As a child, my grandmother called Pentacostal/COGIC parishoners “sanctified people”?Is being called sanctified offensive to you?Okay,I will not bother you again.
Very good exchange of ideas and thoughts as always. I like many of you have had the experience where I would be in the middle of a “breakout of the Spirit” during service and be dumbfounded and confused as to what was going on. I often left those services the same as I entered except covered in the sweat of the brother/sister next to me. These were times when the congregation was worked up into a lather and the Word was never preached the service just consisited of spiritual aerobics (my praise is so funky LOL). The unfortunate thing was that for those who didnt feel the Spirit that Sunday am was a waste of time.Ridicule often came towards the ones who did not “feel it” . Now in saying this there have been times during the worship portion of the service without the provocation or manipulation of the worsip leader or pastor in a expression of joy,adoration or gratitude towards the Lord I have danced . This is something that I have done in the privacy of my own home with no else around during my own personal intimate time with God.Yes I have witnessed pure foolishness and disorder when it comes to this in church like many of you. However I dont believe that means that all emotional expressions of worship are wrong.No I cant find examples of dancing in the new testament however the old has several :Psa 149:1 Praise ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a new song, [and] his praise in the congregation of saints.
Psa 149:2 Let Israel rejoice in him that made him: let the children of Zion be joyful in their King.
Psa 149:3 Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp .
Yes this in the context of Jewish worship however I believe these scriptures are examples of how we of the new covenant are to worship the same God today. Now Melvin you know you’re my boy and all but I dont see how you or others can equate any form of worship ie: raising of hands,crying or dancing as soft ,sugary or feminized.David was tougher than you or I (I aint fighting no Lion or bear) yet he was never afraid to express his love for the Lord. Look at John the beloved man he loved Jesus so much he rested on his chest . Now that to me is a manly man.
with much love and manliness, jcrep32
Dear SDM,
I have no problem with your questions. I know many members of COGIC churches that have admitted that they never spoke in tongues. This is not a prerequisite for membership. As far as the dancing, we have been around this point throughout this posting and we can agree to disagree. Being called sanctified is not offensive. Denying your flesh is essential to salvation. I can tell by your responses that you truly have sincere questions and are not trying to be humorous or spiteful. Maybe a church that believes in “free” worship and dancing is not the church for you. I hope that you don’t allow your questions regarding different aspects of worship to hinder your spiritual growth. God bless you.
My eye-opening came one day at just such a dancing time as this. Everybody was all whirling around doing their jig, and suddenly the thought went in my head that they was NOT dancing for the Lord, they was dancing because the pastor just declared a word about blessing, which meant MONEY.
It was in a moment that the scales fell off my eyes! And then the more I let myself think about it all, the more I realize that it was by design. They set it up like this! And the Shout music is a big part of the setup. They really do pimp the people, they set us all up like fools by playing the beat and the organ. My son like I said played the bass, he can tell you all about how the music gets faster and raises key to make folk feel like the annointing just got stronger. It’s a setup I tell you.
Thats something to think about! I have never read that in the word of God other then David dancing. Like you said its part of the set up. It’s all emotionalism. Atleast thats what I believe. I truly believe they do it to keep folk from getting bored. I use to go to City of Refuge, Bishop Jones would give a hand sign and the organist would play as he preached. I thought to myself why does he need music to help him preach? I guess its just a way to keep the people from falling asleep.
I guess I tripped a little when I saw him gived the hand sign for the music, it happens right before he rebs up to go to the mountain so he says.
So many who wish to advocate disorder in church meetings run to the fact King David danced. They never dare go all the way with that. David danced till he was butt naked! Who wants to advocate that? David, King and a man after God’s own heart was in a position where he could do things he would never even have allowed others in his court to get away with.
David was all for dancing, but what we are seeing is simply another play of emotional fits, out of control and calling attention to themselves. How come at churches where people are not encouraged to jump around, can a convert come in who came from all manner of mess and not jump around? Because the jumping around is learned behavior, it’s not honestly a move of the spirit and just because David danced out of control, Jesus never did, is Jesus not greater than David? The apostles never danced. Never were CHRISTIANS instructed to dance. Christians were instructed to have decency and order. To have meetings where if an unbeliver enters, they won’t think everyone is mad! Our job is to spread the message of Jesus Christ and imitate his actions. Jumping around in emotional fits does not come in anywhere in the life of a Christian.
I know the Jews did a lot of things that people really seem to like. Such as get lots of land and money from God, destroy their enemies and dance to the point David was naked, but sorry, that’s not at all the life of a Christian. We work to show love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.
Who is to say that in praising God you must be “in the Spirit”? We were taught and conditioned to think that when the Spirit moves you, that’s when you should dance. NO, if you tell a person to clap their hands in church, is it done with the Spirit? NO, but the Bible does tell us to Praise with the timbrel and dance. That simply means that we are giving God praise. Not because I am moved by the Spirit but because the Word of God says, “Let everything that hath breath praise the Lord”, and God is due our worship and praise. THE MAN
The Man, that’s really an excellent point. God is due our worship and praise whether or not we FEEEEEEEEL the “anointing”, or FEEEEEEEEL emotional, or FEEEEEEEEL the Spirit “moving”. (MN: Uh oh! He’s learned how to make things bold. )
We are COMMANDED to worship and praise our Saviour (for He is worthy), therefore worship and praise are an act of the WILL, not a product of internal or external stimuli of any sort.
To worship as a result of what we feel, or sense, is carnality defined. It is obedience to the stimulation of the flesh and/or emotions, and therefore is not a product of faith.
To worship as an act of OBEDIENCE to the Word, without regard to ANYTHING external or sensory driven, is a product of FAITH. We demonstrate that we worship as a result of our BELIEFS rather than as a result of what we SENSE (flesh).
Hbr 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please Him.
Worship or praise that is a result of our senses or emotions is by DEFINITION not of faith. Which leads to an even stickier problem……
Rom 14:23 For whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin.
Melvin………..it’s YOUR fault
Last thing. I do believe in raising your hands in worship and I their are certain words arranged about the Grace of God. One song that gets me crying (for all the Hip Hop heads I am still a hardcore guy) is Holy are you Lord. So I don’t think we should be void of emotion but when it interrupts a service, (everyone stops singing to see my MANLY cry) then I don’t think it is of God.
You’re not alone Mr Woods. I had my iPod playing while driving today, and Ray Boltz’s “The Anchor Holds” had me in tears.
Nothing wrong with being emotionally moved by the contemplation of what God has done for us through Christ. In fact, if you’re never moved emotionally by that, I’d be concerned. Nothing wrong with rasing holy hands in church………..nothing wrong with allowing God to simply MOVE you.
But to build your Christianity around experiences and emotionalism, and derive your doctrine from that, is dangerous ground.
Emotion doesn’t lead to correct doctrine, but correct doctrine will lead to some powerful emotions. But even then, there is no hint in Scripture that we are to be given over to those emotions in an unrestrained or wild manner. Otherwise the command to have everything among the brethren be done decently and in order becomes meaningless.