A reader complained that Pulpit-Pimps.org doesn’t pray for the pimps and that it uses big words and tries to impress people with our knowledge and mastery of words. In fact, here’s what Enlightened said about praying for the pimps:
Yes Denise, I agree with you that we are supposed to pray for them.
Also, we need God’s guidance in helping us minister to those who are still in “strong delusion”. I don’t think “pimp bashing” alone will help our brothers and sisters who are still being deceived every Sunday.
As has been pointed out repeatedly, if one takes the time to read the site there are MANY encouragements and requests for prayer, for pimp and pimped alike.
The insinuation that we should type out such prayers on the website is patently absurd.
Tell me, to whom would those typewritten prayers be directed?? Does God read the blog to ascertain our prayer requests? Can we also send Him requests by snail mail like He’s some cosmic Santa Claus? What, PRECISELY, would we accomplish by doing so?
No, we are commanded to enter our prayer closet in secret, and expose the pimps publicly. That is what we do. To print out pious sounding prayers and supplications here would be an exercise in futility at the least, or an attempt to pander to men at the worst.
Folks are encouraged to pray here, and reminded of their duty to do so. All else is simply feigned piety.
Enlightened then went on to say:
Also, I believe that whether or not we are grammatically correct or whether we are biblical scholars does not impress the Lord.
Unfortunately, we would have to ignore 2 Timothy 2:15 which says:
Study to shew thyself APPROVED UNTO GOD, a workman that needeth not to be ASHAMED, rightly dividing the word of truth. (KJV)
It seems God approves of Biblical scholarship, and considers it shameful to be unable to rightly divide the Word. Of course knowledge for the sake of knowledge is a waste of time and it puffs up. But knowledge with respect to God and what He expects of us is essential in living the Christian life. And that, as Paul points out, takes study.
An illiterate person should be able to come to this site for biblical knowledge, without having to use a dictionary. For example, “interpret” or “explain” are simpler, better-understood words than “exegete” for most people.
I would have let Enlightened entire post pass by, had it not been for this statement. Frankly, it infuriated me.
We’ll leave aside the fact that neither “interpret” nor “explain” properly give the sense of the word “exegete”. The crux of the issue is the contention that we should dumb down the presentation here so that no one will have to extend themselves. That is precisely the format the pimps employ. Besides, saying that the illiterate should be able to come to the site…without having to use a dictionary…” is like the billboard that says “Illiterate? Write for Help”. The illiterate generally don’t use the web. They can’t read.
The pimp waters everything down to keep the lowest common denominator AT the lowest common denominator. His concern is that the sheep are made comfortable. He doesn’t want them studying; he wants them obedient. He doesn’t delve into the great issues of doctrine and theology, so to that end he spoon-feeds spiritual pabulum lest they grow and their eyes are opened. When was the last time you heard Eddie Long preach about the Trinity, or God’s sovereignty and man’s free will? On the other hand, when is the last time you heard him preach on the need to step up to your destiny, to walk in your anointing? The latter keeps people stupid, very stupid.
Mel constructed this site as an encouragement to STUDY and LEARN as well as an expose’ of Pulpit Pimpery. If one never learns HOW to study, if they are never CHALLENGED by what they read here, if they are not willing to EXERT themselves for understanding, they cannot remain free from pimpery.
In that light, there are articles on great doctrinal issues, there are books recommended which dig deeply into theology, and there are discussions which explore the profound issues addressed in the Word. How is that not “ministering to those in strong delusion” or how is it only “pimp bashing.”
Tell me, why bother encouraging the sheep to study, and recommending books on theology and doctrine, when doing so will INEVITABLY bring them face-to-face with the very theological terms you feel we should avoid? Why not expose them HERE to these terms, where they can gain a familiarity with them among friends? They MUST KNOW THEM to further their study as they seek to free themselves, or to further steel themselves against pimpery, because the great books they need ALL USE THEM.
Good grief! All they have to do is ASK, and they will be eagerly answered. If they do not wish to ask, they can use the search function of the site for clarification. OR (heaven forbid) they might actually GOOGLE IT.
No one competent as a parent raises children this way. You don’t keep your children in ignorance in order to make them comfortable (as the pimp does). You CHALLENGE them. You PUSH them. You PREPARE them for the difficulties that you know await them.
Is it better to send them out unprepared for the very books and doctrinal discussions that we are encouraging them to undertake? Hardly. It is a KINDNESS, not a hardship, to expose them to these things among friends. Should we rather then send them out clueless into books and theology they will be unprepared to understand because we refused to familiarize them with these terms and concepts? If they can’t be bothered to extend themselves even this slightly, a few seconds asking, or searching, or Googling, they aren’t serious to begin with. They lack the requisite hunger to escape the pimps and please God. Better they should confront these issues HERE and learn HOW to study in the process so they can deal effectively on their own.
Enlightened then goes on to say:
Everyone should be able to clearly understand what is being said on this site. The Lord is a God of simplicity, and He doesn’t like self-exaltation and pride.
Many of the key concepts of Christianity are anything but simple. I would ask Enlightened to demonstrate for us the “simplicity” of the Trinity, the Incarnation, the sovereignty of God, the free will of man or the hypostatic union.
These are NOT simple concepts, but they are concepts that are NECESSARY to understand to be doctrinally sound and 100% pimp-free. Do you have to understand them for salvation? No. But if you are to grow in grace, if you are going to be pimp-resistant, they are necessary. And, considering again the INEVITABILITY that theological terms WILL be presented in the works which explore these great doctrines, how is bottle-feeding them milk here (which is how the pimps got them to begin with) going to aid them as they seek to explore these Truths??
The bottom line: the pimps think you’re stupid. We don’t. The pimps want to take advantage of you. We want you to grow in the knowledge and grace of Jesus Christ. And that means you have to be challenged spiritually and intellectually. Lazy Christians don’t lose their salvation. They just lose chance after chance to impact the world for Jesus Christ.
Now, if you’ll excuse me, I’m going to water down the doctrines of Grace until I can format them into a Dr Seuss-type nursery rhyme for the newbies. You know……….like the pimps do.
Let’s see. Instead of Sam I Am let’s try “GaryV”
“That GaryV. That GaryV. I do not like that GaryV!”
“Were you saved to be conformed?”
“I was not saved to be conformed.”
“Were you saved to follow Christ?”
“I was not saved to follow Christ.”
“Were you blessed with eternal life?”
“I was not blessed with eternal life. I was not saved to follow Christ. I was not saved to be conformed. I do not study, GaryV!”
“Will you study while at home?”
“I will not study while at home.”
“Will you study on the train?”
“I will not study on the train”
“Will you study while at lunch?”
“I will not study while at lunch.”
“Will you study just to learn?”
“I will not study just to learn, or while at lunch, or on a train. I will not study while at home. I will not study GaryV.”
Of course this is just a rough draft. I still have to polish it up some.
Let it be proclaimed throughout the land…………..while I employed a bit of sarcasm in suggesting that I would be dumbing down the doctrines of Grace into a Dr Seuss-type rhyme, I did NOT actually write the hilarious rhyme posted under the banner above.
That was a product the Benevolent Dictator’s fertile and somewhat skewed mind…………and yet another example of how far I have to go before I can be regarded as a true Melvinite.
:lol:
I bow before your transcendent wisdom (and humor), Benevolent One.
Amen! You know, I admit I used to skip over a lot of the posts here because they were too “hard to read”. There was a ton of scripture, references to “obscure” passages I had never heard of or read, and lots of interpretations. I thought, ‘just tell me about the pimps so I can nod and agree’.
When I read this posting, it hit me that that’s what I’d been doing for 12 years at Newbirth. Nodding and agreeing with the stories, anecdotes, and catchy sayings.
Since I’ve left there, I’ve done more studying than I ever had, and once I started reading this site, I had to study some more. I love that I’m challenged now, even though it’s frustrating sometimes. At least here, I know I’m not being patronized or pandered to.
Keep it up, brothers and sisters in Christ! People ARE being challenged and convicted here!
(MN: Thanks. Again, comments like this make the whole thing worthwhile. )
Wow,
I am also a former member of New Birth. I’m trying to put together sort of a directory of escapees from there. Would you get in touch with me for more details.
My e-mail is sound-doctrine@myway.com
Thanks
I can’t believe she got under your skin so bad. I find it laughable that she’d come on here and tell you to dumb it down. Why even put much effort into responding to such nonsense?
(MN: The classroom never closes. Everything is an object lesson. )
Hi Danharr!!!
This wasn’t addressed solely to Enlightened, who I am certain is a sincere brother or sister. If you read the postings over the last several days, this theme has been coming up quite a bit.
I simply used Enlightened’s post as a launching pad because it neatly encapsulated all the arguments I wanted to address. And yes, frankly it DID get under my skin too (though that is partly due to the accumulation of this argument from other sources).
This wasn’t an attack on Enlightened, but on the ideas presented. I wanted to demonstrate that there was a perfectly valid and conscious decision made to keep the conversation elevated, and it had nothing to do with pride or self-exaltation.
To Enlightened and others, I hope you can see the other side of the coin, and I wish you nothing but peace. I hope you stick around.
People like enlightened do have their hearts in the right place but lack the full depth and breadth of what effect the Pimps are having on people.
Just take Pastor Stephen for example. He claims that God is going to give him a global outreach. The question is global how and for what purpose? Does Pastor Stephen see himself as another Creflo? Is his goal to be “blessed” like those on TBN and the such? Does he dream of a mega-church like Osteen?
If so, what does that have to do with saving souls, living a life of obedience, and contending for the faith? So it begs the question should we simply sit around in the upper room afraid or do we boldly speak the truth? I choose the latter.
People like enlightened fail to understand that pimps are devouring the pocket books of people oftentimes taking their entire savings and leaving them broke. Numerous examples of such have been posted on the Web.
Should we idly sit by and have a prayer forum while these WoF vultures steal from the flock? I say no. These people need to be exposed for who they are. My humble suggestion to you Enlightened is to go on the web and search some of the victims of this heresy in the Church. Once you do that I humbly ask you to reevaluate your opinion about this site.
Kyle
Kyle, regarding your comment,”My humble suggestion to you Enlightened is to go on the web and search some of the victims of this heresy in the Church. Once you do that I humbly ask you to reevaluate your opinion about this site”.
Kyle, I was one of the “victims” of heresy in one of these “churches’.
Not only was I a member for many years, but I was also in numerous ministries, so I experienced the destruction that results from false teaching.
I could tell you stories that would shock even you all.
I do find it very amusing that Gary would get so angry.
Is that “righteous” anger?
Enlightened,
No need to get defensive with me. Please do tell of some stories regarding what happened. Each example of such things only builds a bigger case against these pimps. Please don’t read into my posting too much I am not a flame thrower nor do I wish to insight any arguments. I was being sincere that your heart is right however I don’t think you should leave nor do I think you should assume that this site is all about bashing pimps. I think this site is quite constructive. Many Pimps are now coming out of the wood work and on to this site. Enlightened Pulpit Pimps is having a positive affect.
Kyle
Right Enlightened………..it was a great way to be sent into the weekend by having someone accuse us of “pride and self exaltation”. Ignorant drivel.
You never considered any other option, did you?? Nope……….judge the hearts and move on. You came to erroneous (and unrighteous) judgment without the courtesy of even asking asking a single question.
Feel free to address the points in the post, if you can. We all want to be amused too.
You have proven my point.
And your point was what, exactly?
Enlightened,
What is your point? What do you want us to do? We already beat this thing over the head a million times. YES we should pray for those who are pimps or who are being pimped. NO this is not a prayer blog. YES Pulpit Pimps has had an effect on this heresy. Enlightened your going in circles with this argument. Just let it go. You know what its like to be pimped just as I do. Quit firing arrows at your own army and direct them towards people who are trying to destroy the truth. Your starting to give me a headache. All this in fighting is probably making Pastor Stephen smile. Just breath in and let it go. Squash it and move on. Nobody is your enemy here.
Kyle
Kyle………….you’re the very voice of reason itself.
Back to the Pimpalicious ones!! Enlightened, I give you dibs on the next Benny Hinn heresy
On the other hand, I find it curious that you would be so cavalier in warning others about the pimps given that you have seen the destructiveness of their activities.
Too funny. I JUST read my kids Green Eggs and Ham today in the truck. LOL!!!
Melvin, be nice.
You should not read while in a truck
You should not dare to press your luck
Your crash may cause a traffic jam
First park, then read Green Eggs And Ham
Funny! We were parked at McDonald’s.
Hey? How’d you get that smiley?
Kyle, I have many entities on the web. Have you seen one appeal for funds made by me? There is not one! No trinkets for sale nor anything else! I am not madly running after your dollar nor the dollars of anyone else!
By the way Stephen, make sure your comments are assigned to the post they are applicable to. This comment had nothing to do with the posting. Kyle hasn’t said anything about you or anything else here.
Well said GaryV! It is heart breaking at times to deal with individuals from a Biblical standpoint when they don’t understand that the Bible is the basis for our faith. Therefore, when you quote scriptures to them and you talk to them about context, language, grammar and such, they get offended and accuse you of being prideful. As if being uninformed biblically is something itself of which one should be proud. The pride is what is keeping them from being willing to be taught. Then they invoke “the spirit” as if that should end the conversation. Even Marvin Gaye said “If the spirit moves ya, let me groove ya”. Was he talking about God’s Holy Spirit. No! And neither are they!
I had been doctrinally wrong for more than half of my Christian life (it began July 18,1997). I have believed and even practiced and participated in unbiblical things while calling it of God. (and while wondering what I was doing and why) That is not something that I am proud of for obvious reasons. In that time I had been little help to those who had crossed my path, in that my gift of gab always led them to believe that I knew what I was talking about even when I didn’t. I knew that I wasn’t sure but I was too PRIDEFUL and full of “denominationalism” to admit it. Really it can be said that I was deceived into thinking that all I had to do was to recite the company policy (aka the COGIC doctrine) on any subject and I had to be right. Although I disagreed with a lot of what the COGIC held, I was conditioned to be afraid to openly question it. So when I answered people who asked questions about different things, I just recited the company line for that subject.
Thankfully, God used many disapointments, failures, and a brother on my job to get me to see outside of the “black manual”. Now I no longer openly receive any statement claiming to be biblically based without checking for myself. No “words from the Lord”! No “prophecies of prosperity”! I thank God that the blinders have been removed. It did not come from someone dumbing down God’s Holy Word but by me being challenged to “smarten up”! Keep up the Go(o)d work Melvin, GaryV, and others. All of us need it and some of us really want it!
Pastor Stephen,
I had some questions regarding your beliefs. Please look at the post addressed to you (Pastor Stephen) under the Todd-Prophet or Puppeteer post. I’m very civil I just want to know in your own words what you do and do not believe.
Kyle
Hi,
Hope I don’t to sound too hard.
I was just listening to I.V Hilliard raping the Word of GOD on tithing and offering and claiming that during is 21 day fast GOD told him that this season of giving is a 20-point giving. Don’t even know what that means has I live in the UK I assume he wants the congregation to double tithe.
Anyway my point to Melvin and fellow brethrens in Christ.
1) Where in the Holy Scripture are we told to pray for false teachers?
2) Where are the examples in the Holy scripture’s did our Master and Teacher Jesus Christ and the apostles actually went about their way praying for false teachers?
Melvin and fellow brethrens in Christ haven’t we read from the Holy Scripture’s that the “world is already condemned” Rom 2:12-16. Even the un-believers Rom 2:15 know the truth that their conscience bears witness against them.
Rom 2:15 who show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts meanwhile accusing or else excusing themselves)
If the Holy Scripture tells us that un-believers know this how much so the false preachers.
False teachers know the truth their mind is not clouded by some invisible mist and hence we have to pray for them because they don’t’ know or are not aware of what they are doing.
The Holy Scripture calls them wolves in sheep’s clothing. How then can a sheep say they want to help the wolves when the natural nature of the wolf is to devour the sheep and keep on devouring because the wolf never loses is taste for sheep meat?
They the false preachers have willing made up their mind that this is the path they want to take and I’m afraid they have their part in the lake of fire.
I can’t remember any preacher (please let me know if there are) who has been exposed has being false or caught in some uncompromising situation that the media picked up on that hasn’t after a while start up another church and preaching again under the notion that they have repented from the wrong they were exposed on.
What about the rest no one knows but GOD knows about?
Sorry Melvin for the long post. I was just upset.
—–
Gab,
You are exactly right concerning the nature of a wolf, and the naivety of a sheep rushing to their assistance;
Gab: “How then can a sheep say they want to help the wolves when the natural nature of the wolf is to devour the sheep and keep on devouring because the wolf never loses is taste for sheep meat?”
Matthew 7:6
Give not that which is holy {good, clean, pure} unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
We have so many admonitions, and the trappings of this behavior are in regard to following the “spirit”.
Gab, I’ve never heard of any popular preachers repent and stay the right course. However, we also must consider the scripture that says in Hebrews 6:4-8
To your question or comment, I would say, in agreement with Gridiron, it is like casting pearls to the swine. I don’t believe people like Benny Hinn, T.Dexter, Cashflow, etc. are innocently being carried away unawares. When they choose to do the wrong thing consistently to the degree that they use the Scriptures to their own benefit and to accomplish their own agenda, they are of reprobate minds.
At some point, the Lord will give them up as such. Once blinded to the degree that they don’t even have the sense to know that they should be ashamed, what point is there in praying for them? I think we do better praying for those who are blindly following them, that their eyes would be opened to the Truth.
GaryV - I am very glad you made this post and the benevolent dictator of this blog allowed it.
I felt the same way you did about that comment. Although I didn’t have time to detail it as you have, plus I honestly did not know if folks picked up on how backward a comment it really was. I just knew I was not accepting it myself. Some folks need to grow to understand that they should not have an aversion towards those “big words”. I’ve been told that slaves were kept in check in part by keeping them illiterate. I’ll use the big words, learn more and encourage others to do the same. It’s not for any form of show, but when you actually know those “big words”, you realize they often express things better than a smaller word.
Trying to dumb things down regarding language is almost as bad as the comment a good while back where someone claimed we should use the Bible less
.
The Bible has lots of “big words” you know
.
There’s a lot more here going on than “pimp bashing” here and I know from the messages I get personally (at my blog where I can be even harsher than Melvin at times on a viper, pimp, brute beast who misleads saints) that efforts like this help a great many people.
IC,
Do you have any suggestions as to how we might be effective in ministering to those who are still “caught up”?
I don’t know about you all, but I didn’t start visiting this site until “after” I fled the deception.
I submit to you that people who are still deceived are not visiting this site.
This time last year, I would have been ready to fight anybody who talked about my pastor.
I am thankful for this site, as well as your blog, for helping me “recover”.
(MN: The ones who tell me that hell is waiting for me and that I’m going to die visit the site. Little Stevie Wonder visits the site. I suspect John Jenkins visits as well. And I know for a fact that at least a couple of people from the First Baptist Church of Glenarden offices visit.
IC, what else can these good people do to pull the souls from the wolves’ slaughterhouses? )
Enlightened - As I’ve already mentioned, both me and I’m sure Melvin have proof positive that some who are caught up in the mess are helped by this. And they are no longer as victim to it as they once were and now they are “former” victims, just like myself. We are not going to parade it for you, but we know that while we both are called demons on a regular basis, that others tell us how our embedding the truth along with examples of pimping have helped them see the truth. Of course most people are not going to suddenly read one thing and realize the truth in a single day.
Personally, I heard of it all being false for YEARS before I fully turned away from it.
If you’re looking for a magic bullet you’ve got the wrong prescription in mind. Notice there is a guy just locked up in Baltimore who people still defend, notice the comment in that post. In other posts on my blog I have gone back and forth with his supporters for over a year and still do even after his conviction.
The truth is…and this is the really sad part everyone, some people will never see the truth.
But people continually beating me over the head and showing me the truth helped me. It really did. I offer the same and say people should continue to tell the truth and support it with scripture.
The Bible recommends exposing the false teachers and elders caught in sin. Exposing and rebuking them publicly. Sharing the truth and being a witness for the Lord Jesus Christ. That’s the prescription and I’ll keep administering it.
I say to those who disagree with my methods or Melvin’s, but realize the pimps are not good, that they should work their own efforts as they see fit.
I don’t do things for the sake of numbers, so I can say “I helped X number of people”. That’s not something that I should ever claim. I move as led by the Lord. Some disagree, I say let the Lord lead you and help whoever you can as you are led.
IC, Enlightened,
It is true that this site is having an effect. There are people who are coming to this site without posting and reading what is being said. Oftentimes when they do post they are combative but not for the reasons you think. When someone is cornered and lost the argument they oftentimes turn to sarcastic, immature, and defensive remarks. This is not because they believe 100% of their errant doctrine. In fact it is just the opposite. Pulpit Pimps is slowly exposing the cracks in the armor and rubbing people the wrong way which is causing these pimps and those being pimped to reevaluate themselves.
Kyle
Enlightened, if you look through the archives you will see many instances of folks who were directly changed by coming to the site. You will also see many instances of folks who never participated until the message sank in…..but then they gave testimony to how important the information here was in their escape.
And I have no doubt that if we were to poll those currently involved on a steady basis here, that you would find that EVERYONE here has been blessed by Melvin and this site. And I’m equally certain that we ALL have used the information gleaned here with those in various stages of pimpdom, so the reach far exceeds the grasp of the site itself.
GaryV,
You are right. I too was believed in what the Pimps believed. Although I must confess I was never totally sold on the idea. I was more like a participant observer, sort of like a fence sitter. I did give money to TBN and CBN in the past. I used to give to Chuck Colson’s prison ministries, James Dobson’s Focus on the Family, and I even tossed 10 bucks to St. Mathews Churches (You know that one) Lastly I even gave to the National Right to Life.
However through yearning for the truth, God lead me to correct doctrine. Thank God for the internet. I began to research these people and soon realized that it was all smoke and mirrors. It was easy to stop giving to TBN after a little research. Slowly after that the “less” obvious like CBN soon followed. The others like Colson and Dobson were next to get cut off.
Those two were difficult for me because clearly there intent is correct but I have great reservation over there political wrangling.
And lastly NRL I stopped giving to because although their hearts were in the right place they were little more than a GOPAC. (GOP Political Action Committee) This is not to say that politics is bad its just I don’t like the alignment (see the Mitt Romney Post)
I now give to certain organizations that I research about from MinistryWatch.com. I will never give to ANY “so-called” Christian ministry that gives out trinkets for your money you send them nor will I give to organizations that send out letters for more donations. It was a work in process but I am glad I am no longer in bondage nor do I feel like I am robbing God. Having the shackles of the Pimps released from me has been a blessing unto itself.
Kyle
IC………..please be so kind as to capitalize Benevolent Dictator. Faux pas.
Now GaryV, if you really want to do it right, you must use bold text, Benevolent Dictator
.
Once we make a flag with Melvin’s picture on it, we can start twisting scripture and collecting “tithes”
.
You have to show me how to do the bold text. I’ve tried, but can’t.
As for the flag, we have to come up with a name for Melvin’s domain first.
Pimponia?? LIEberia?? Kuwait(wait, wait for it), SamoaMoney?? HOmania?? Paupau New Gimme?? Wackistan?? MELaysia?? Jamaica Me Rich?? Kenya Make That Cash?? Lebanon-Refundable?? JonesTown?? (wait, that’s been done).
(MN: < b >Text to make bold< / b > (But don’t include the spaces) )
Yea, JonesTown would have been perfect
.
I am learning to think like this and read and understand more. I think the big thing about the Pimps is that they say what people WANT to hear. Some of them started out OK and preached the Gospel but then they got sidetracked by stuff that made us stand and cheer and say amen. And dance. Stuff like your just a step from your destiny, I’m here to tell you that the devil is fighting your breakthrough. Stuff like that. It was always real general so we all sit and think of our own situation, where we need a breakthrough. And then we get pumped up by what they say and in the end, it turns into giving an offering. How many times did we dance and get excited and then they say something like John 10:10 says abundant life so give an offering of $101 dollars and you’ll have abundant life.
And we gave and the only ones who got abundant life was the preacher! That’s just wrong!
I wonder why the Holy Spirit didn’t dumb down God’s word when he used the writers of the Holy Scriptures to convey God’s message to the world. Words like propitiation, justification, predestination, and a slew of other words, are used in the bible.
Furthermore, I don’t even think most of the Pimps are “dumbing down” when they teach. I heard Jakes put a sentence together that I couldn’t repeat unless I recorded it and practiced and all he was saying is God wants to bless you with some type of good that would show the world that God is into the blessing game! You can’t listen to Paula White without hearing some foolishness like that either.
They use words like: divine purpose, annointing, and other words that I care not to repeat. To make it is short, I am in aggreance with Gay V on this one. Should we now make a Dummy’s guide to the Bible? Or should we just make a translation that a third grader could read and understand (oh I think we already have children’s bibles).
These same individuals we would “dumb down” the Scriptures for would spend hours upon hours studying their trade and going to college, but they want to come to church and have it easy. Nope! I think it would be doing them an injustice (as so many of the Pimps are doing to keep them hinged on every word they speak), to dumb it down. It gives them nothing to strive for. So please continue to Exegete the Word Expositorily while consistently holding to the 5 Solas of our great faith (LOL)!
Mr. Woods/Gary V; the admonitions against “dumbing down” the Word have definitely ministered to me.
I have been in the position of placing a study together, and at one point it was reviewed and I was advised to….”take this word out”, “what does this mean?”, “you shouldn’t use this type of language - they won’t understand what you are saying”, and let’s say I ended up changing the whole context of what I was communicating by altering words they could not “understand” with language that was “easier”.
Not exactly a comfortable feeling.
I did not want to do it, because I felt I was being as clear and concise as I possibly could. I ended up doing it anyway against the promptings in my own heart. Thanks again for the lesson.
To Gridiron:
Don’t listen to people who tell you to “dumb down” your sermons. You will be doing a grave disservice to those who need the real meat of the Word and don’t mind listening and learning during the service then going homw and studying on their own. It makes people think, look for further information, do private study, and to thirst and hunger for more knowledge as well as to study on their own in between church services. It allows for week-long growth through personal study and “foraging” for the nuggets of the word that the pastor didn’t have time to include in his sermon. It make us accountable for not only feeding on the Word at the church but to have our own private spiritual buffets at home. DON’T dumb down!
Well said Mr Woods. I’m a living witness, because I was in churches for years that dumbed down the word, not intentionally, but because the pastors simply didn’t have knowledge to do otherwise, but finally I became a member of a church with a pastor who knew how to teach. I’d never heard the doctrine of election, nothing about predestination, election, millennialism, the tribulation, rapture, had never had any kind of study on eschatology, nothing about what sanctification really is, nothing on spiritual gifts, really very little at all, and all of them would get up, read Scripture, then preach on “everyday, sit-around common stuff that people already knew, just conversational kind of preaching, then they’d go into what is called the “whoop!” I absolutely hated it when they did that.
But the church that had the preacher who taught on biblical messages that I’d never been exposed to was a man who’d studied Hebrew and Greek–could read and write in the Greek language very fluently (and had been to several seminaries, not that I feel a preacher necessarily need seminary training, but I do say that for the first time that I was fed real meet, it was from a pastor who’d incidentally been seminary trained).
He preached sermons on doctrines I’d never heard before and he had it on the steak level, not the milk and baby cereal I’d been accustomed to hearing, which caused me to study harder to keep up with what he was teaching. It gave me a thirst for more of the Word than I’d ever had. It caused me to get Bible on tapes, commentaries, to pray more, asking for enlargement of my knowledge of the Bible, etc.
I’d never had Daniel and Revelation taught the way it was taught by him. We did a verse by verse study in Daniel/Revelation AFTER doing a verse by verse study of the entire Bible. In fact, because of the meat he was serving, I enrolled in our local seminary and took their course on Daniel and Revelation just to learn more. (NO I didn’t go there to become a preacher, just to learn more) Had this pastor not piqued my spiritual interest and thirst for more knowledge by NOT dumbing down, I wouldn’t have a great deal of the understanding I now have. Not only did I go to the Luther Rice Seminary twice to study.
Daniel/Revelation, but I also placed my membership in another church after my pastor left town, a church that was doing a verse by verse study of Daniel/Revelation. It took 2 years to go through the study and I again enjoyed it immensely.
He taught us about evangelizing and we chose a Black couple who were serving as missionaries in Sao Paulo and every month we sent money to support this couple in their missionary work.
There as so much I learned while in this church. When he and his wife had to move to another state, the church called a man who’d never been a pastor and he came in with that milk and cereal, and I began my search for the Word being preached again. I joined a church that was predominantly Caucasian, and this is the same church that I joined because of the through the Bible teaching of Daniel/Revelation. This pastor went out to evangelize three years after I joined and this church called a dry bones in the valley kind of preacher and I left there. So, I said all this to say, dumbing down the Word is a disservice to those who have a thirst for knowledge and a willingness to study on their own to add to the knowledge that is being taught by the well-equipped pastor. There is nothing better than a well-prepared, meat-filled sermon!!! People need to get in the habit of studying at home. Do some follow-up on what was taught. Add to your knowledge.
Sorry for the lengthiness of my post. I don’t usually get this carried away. Please don’t ban me. LOL!
(MN: This is a good carried away. Hey, you even used paragraphs!! I’m going to complain? )
Anybody else REALLY like BagLady?? I do!! Thanks for the messages, they were inspirational!!
Fredriqua, that about sums it up!!
Sorry I have to disagree, I do not believe we should pray for these pimps. When people say that what they really mean is that you should shut up and stop criticizing them.
My time is better spent praying for the poor, the sick the suffering children of the world. As far as the pimps and the pimped out, Let them read our critisism and pray for themselves! Sorry, but I am not going to pray for one of these money grubbing sean jean wearing preachers for one minute, even if there was a slight chance that one of them might change thier ways.
Look at it this way, they have the Bible right in front of them they have all their worldly needs. They have every advantage and proof before them. They know what they do is wrong and they still do it. It reminds me of the Rich man & Lazarus.
Again, pray for the dying children of the world, these pimps should pray for their own selves and anybody telling you what you that you should be praying for them and thier followers should realize that they should pray for themselves and listen to the criticism for truth and understanding!
Again they don’t really care if you pray for the pimps and pimped out, they just want you to shut up so they tell you to put it in Gods hands thinking that lame command of “you should pray for them” will shut you up!
(MN: don’t be bashful Harry. Say what you really think!
)
Harry,
You crack me up. Don’t let enlightened read your post PLEASE! Otherwise we are going to go around and around in circles again. The arguments are becoming tired and vacuous with the back and forth jockeying on such a trivial idea of whether or not we should pray for them. I think we should go on exposing them for who they are and “if” someone would like to pray for them they should do it on their own time and not here.
Kyle
I don’t know Kyle, I would have to disagree with Harry and agree with Enligtened on this one. If Paul tells Timothy to pray for rulers who were feeding Christians to lions and making human candles out of them we should definitely be praying for pimps. I don’t know if they are on the top of my list but we have to pray for them. Some our lost. Are we not to pray for non believers I would also have to provide a verse, can I get a link on this one Mr. Melvin Jones? 2 Timothy 2:22-26 about how to approach those who teach false doctrine. I heard Kenneth Copeland call God the biggest failure in the Bible and that my friend is scariest thing I have ever heard a lip professing Christian say in my entire life. I heard Benny the Butcher say “Jesus is going to show up on stage with me in the flesh” so I would probably put them in a class with Mormons or worse off Lunatics! But I still think we have an obligation to pray for them. That they would see their error and repent. Somebody correct me if I am wrong but I don’t think Carlton P ever said he was wrong right? I am telling you if I was a betting man Paula White is going to say something of that magnitude. She has been trying to make the Top 10 list for a while and she is actually falling off from where she was in the past. Mark my words friends if she will diss Paul, she is going to step it up. Sorry for the long post Melvin, but I still disagree with Harry (just a little though).
I agree with Mr Woods (scary, big bald black baggy-wearin’ Hip Hop listenin’ man that he is, I’d be crazy not to
).
I figured it was time to see if you had a sense of humor Mr Woods
Mr. Woods,
I was implying that we should squash this topic because Enlightened keeps on chiming in about the same thing over and over and over again. It is like a broken record and as more and more people chime in Enlightened keeps on coming back and giving the same response.
Kyle
Incorrect,
Enlightened has not posted since May 28!
Good one Mr. Woods.
Mr. Woods, praying is not the issue, when someone says “you should pray for them” what they really mean is “thou shall not judge”! Coincidently pray for them is usually followed by thou shall not judge in thier arguement. So praying for them is not the issue because if I can’t judge them how do I know to pray for them? I guess I better pray for everybody, as common as drinking water, “bless you I’ll pray for you” it starts to loose its meaning.
And if I see you about to drink tainted Koolaid I’ll pray instead of educating you and helping you flee into the jungle.
When I do pray for them I pray they (the pimps) drop dead, or suffer tremendously. But I see nothing wrong with praying for them to be saved or praying for anyone no matter what they have done. But again praying has NOTHING to do with ” you should pray for them” that is just a polite way of saying shut up!
I’ve been coming here for a long time and only wrote a comment now, because I felt it needed to be said clearly that “pray for them” means, in lay man dumbed down terms, “shut up”.
Al sorts of people might stumble into this site even those under the influence of the pimps, so please continue to present the logic evidence and reason in an intelligent manner! Enlightened is very concerned with who hears this stuff and how it is presented, but truth is truth if you are interested in truth you will take the truth in whatever form it presents itself.
“This time last year, I would have been ready to fight anybody who talked about my pastor”
I feel that way about Jesus Christ I’m ready to fight anybody including you and your pastor. It is OKAY to fight about these subjects! These are the real fights that need to be faught, not Rosie vs Trump. If everyone limits themselves to prayer then no one will have access to evidence and different opinions.
A lot of people may come here with out much of an opinion on anything and this site might give them the seed to do more research and form an opinion.
My Father watches Fredrick Price religiously, I never knew much about him until I picked up a phamplet he ordered that said that the Bible is not the real truth because its full of errors, then I noticed all the donation solicitations and the Magezine with this cocky “Man of God” posing like a street thug in Sean Jean really made me get off my butt and do more research, I haven’t warned my father about this WOF wolf yet, He has been watching him for years I can only hope and pray he stumbles across this site while searching for that wof or other sites like this exposing them. Because I am exposed to the truth I might have a chance at helping my father see the truth.
What I find funny is the abundance of criticism and scrutiny and advice for people like Mel who educate and expose these people, but thier pastor is above such treatment, Even Jesus Christ gets more criticism and scrutiny than thier pastor. They will bypass all the websites that make fun or criticize Jesus but they take up residence and battle on the sites that criticize thier pastor. Your pastor is the 1st person you should be scrutinizing especially if you put him in charge of your spiritual education, not scrutinizing him/her is like handing your child and your pocketbook to complete stranger for a few hours.
Harry, either you have never read my post or you have ignored them. What you have done is put words in my mouth or better yet thoughts in my mind that I never had. Let me answer you chronilogically
1. When I say pray for them. I mean pray for them. Don’t tell me what I mean. I mean pray for each of those individuals. As I said earlier most aren’t on the top of my prayer request; however, when I feel burdened to do that is what I do. Secondly that does not mean “don’t judge them”. It means pray for them. I want these wolves exposed and I am vocal every chance I get to do expose them and educate people I know about false teaching.
2. I hope that you don’t pray that people drop dead. If that is the case you have missed the entire mission of Christ which is to reconcile sinners to himself. You were once in that category. So you have a serious heart issue if you pray that someone drops dead instead of praying that the Lord would extend them mercy and grace as he has done for us all. I am troubled that you so easily forget that you were once an enemey of Christ (Eph 2), but now you are so righteous that you pray for other sinners to drop dead. And again I didn’t say shut up. I said pray for them. Expose them, but also pray for them. Please read (2 Tim 2:24-16). I hope you see something wrong with praying that people drop dead as a matter of fact Jesus says when you pray that we should ask the Father to “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive others”.
3. Once again I didn’t tell anyone to shut up. “Unity if possible, truth at all costs” is my motto. I will expose my Grandmother if she taught false doctrine. Let me tell you I will split if I feel your doctrine is crossing the line and expose you at all cost.
So Harry, I appreciate your zeal but you may be checking the wrong person. I understand your passion, most on here have been abused by slick talking wolves i n sheep clothing. I would tell you though again, that It breaksy my heart that you would pray that someone “drops dead”.
Hi,
Although I do not agree to pray that someone drops dead.
Mr Woods (Please don’t take this as being confrontational, I just want to understand more)
Please bear with me while I ask a question?
I am not a scholar but I have learnt from experience that its safer (if I may even say the only safe way because the Holy Scripture’s are Christ’s Words) to take what the Master Jesus says literally
Our Master and LORD Jesus Christ called them “Wolves” in allegoric terms. The LORD Jesus Christ is omniscient (all knowing). Have we not read the Holy Scripture’s in John 2:23-25
John 2:24 But Jesus did not commit Himself to them, because He knew everyone,
Now when I look up the word “wolf” in the dictionary it doesn’t sound like a pretty character.
(Webster’s)
Wolf
WOLF, n. WULF. [G., Gr.]
1. An animal of the genus Canis, a beast of prey that kills sheep and other small domestic animals; called sometimes the wild dog. The wolf is crafty, greedy and ravenous.
(Dictionary.com)
wolf (wÅ?Å?lf) Pronunciation Key
n. pl. wolves (wÅ?Å?lvz)
Either of two carnivorous mammals of the family Canidae, especially the gray wolf of northern regions, that typically live and hunt in hierarchical packs and prey on livestock and game animals.
wolf in sheep’s clothing, a person who conceals his or her evil intentions or character beneath an innocent exterior.
I am inclined to believe that these types of men are intent on what they do intentionally.
But I am also inclined to believe that if someone feels burdened to pray for them that is not wrong either.
But I don’t think there is anywhere in scripture we are instructed to naturally pray for such types of men.
(Your comment) “hope you see something wrong with praying that people drop dead as a matter of fact Jesus says when you pray that we should ask the Father to “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive others”.”
And also may I ask?
Doesn’t the act of forgiving/forgiveness only proceed after the other party come to ask for forgiveness first as we all do when we come to Christ. (MN: I’d say “no”. Jesus forgave his crucifiers even while they were killing Him. )
gab
I haven’t read all the comments or everything you wrote, so I don’t know from where you are coming Mr. Woods, but if you have any experience debating christianity on the net, then you will know that “pray for them” means shut up, and quit criticizing them. After all if you are praying yopu can’t be typing at the same time. (MN: I don’t think Mr. Woods said not to expose them, not to take action against them. )
How often do you pray for them? This seams to be a big concern of yours. Did you take time to pray for them today before you wrote this?
We don’t have to agree! But my experience has been that those who say pray for them 1) do not pray for them themselves b) just want you to shut up.
2) Sure I pray for people to drop dead all the time! There are some people so debased that they have been given over to thier retrobate mind God even sends them dillusions to keep them in thier lost state, so is Christ mission to reconcile EVERYONE? Romans 1
Reality is there are people killing and raping children right now, I’d rather they just drop dead before they harm another child. There is a movie out called Zoo I will spare you the details, but the man the movie is about, is better off dead, he went so far that he couldn’t return, his own mind wouldn’t let him. The Hitlers and Jeffery Dahmers of the world, ect,. I am not limiting God’s power, but God himself says that sometimes its better just for God to take them out of this world. Would I rather them be saved, ofcourse. But to ignore the parts of the Bible that talk about God’s hate and wrath and revenge (jesus too) and just say that God/Jesus is here to save and love everyone is ridiculous. 9 people where saved from the flood, and Jesus says it will be that way in the last days of judgement. Clearly his mission is not to save everyone but to give everyone the oppurtunity. Thanks for using the 2nd typical debate tool, pointing out my own sinful state, you might as well just say “Thou shall not judge”.
“I hope you see something wrong with praying that people drop dead as a matter of fact Jesus says when you pray that we should ask the Father to “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive others”.”
Jesus doesn’t forgive everyone, he only forgives those people that admit they are wrong and are sorry and ask for forgiveness, We should be like Jesus, should we not?
You think your better than me because you have risen above hate, you are so refined that you would never wish that an unrepentant child molester would just drop dead of a heartattack rather than live to old age hurting child after child and perhaps on his death bed ask for salvation. Your living in the same dillusion that many of these preachers preach, that God is not wrathful, revengeful and hateful. Perhaps your afraid to say the word hell, too, for fear of chasing away potential new church members. We come from a society that trys to indoctrinate us that love of ALL THINGS is good and hate of ANY KIND is bad, and I see you preaching the same secular lie that doesn’t work for a christian when you have to love those things which are wrong according the the Bible. It doesn’t even work for a non christian who knows right & wrong in there heart.
3) Once again you think of yourself as above me, you think of yourself as refined so you would never say shut up, instead you use the politeness of saying pray for them, which gives you the cloak of looking like your putting it all in God’s hands, but if your praying for them, your not on the computer exposing them, therefore you are essentially saying shut up quit typing and just pray!
I noticed a lot of teaming and cheering on this board, Let us get this straight, I do not need a pat on my back or a partner by my side to validate what I believe and type. I do not need unity. Nor do I seek it at the expense of not offending anybody with the truth.
When I hear somoone say we must have unity within the church (spiritual or physical church). It reminds me of how the world is trying to unify all religions/beliefs.
Vengence is mine saith the Lord, so your going to tell me its wrong to pray for vengence? Keep things in balance please I was being slightly sarcastic when I said I pray that they die, but sometimes when I see the injustice in this world I stop and ask God why these people are still alive to do these things. You can pray for whatever you want! But your in denile if you think telling other people to pray for them is not equivilant to stop typing and quit criticizing/shut up! Again if your praying your not typing. God isn’t going to do everything for us, God relies on us to do our part in fulfilling the prayer and that would be researching , talking to people, making websites,blogs videos ect,.
I should pray for the homeless that doesn’t mean I can’t go out and feed them to?
And I was never saying that you personally was just proposing prayer only, because I haven’t read all you wrote, I am saying when someone makes a negative comment in response to 1st visiting here and their arguement is “You should pray for them” it means they don’t want you talking about them they want you praying for them, otherwise why tell someone what they should pray for?
(MN: I’d say “no”. Jesus forgave his crucifiers even while they were killing Him. )
hi Melvin,
that part of the scripture did cross my mind but for the sake of brevity I kept my post short. Anyway since you asked.
If I don’t retaliate to my offender because of the fear of GOD and because I am following the teachings of the LORD Jesus Christ. And when the offender asks for forgiveness I am commanded by the Word of GOD to forgive 70×7 times
My point you see, is that there’s a prescribed order to things. Jesus put it this way in His Holy Scriptures, “Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.” (Luke 17:3-4).
(MN: So Jesus was out of order? He forgave His killers before they asked for forgiveness. )
Luke 23: 34Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
MN, are you trying to use this passage to say that we should forgive everyone regardless of wether they know what they do?
Jesus wasn’t out of order nor does he contradict (Luke 17:3-4)
Jesus/God is the only one that can forgive of all sins, if your saying he will do this for whom ever he chooses regardless of wether that person asked to be saved or thinks they are a sinner, then we must throw out the whole Bible.
Simply the passage means that he is forgiving them of thier part in his death, because that was a unique one time only event, but for them it was business as usual that’s why it states that they are dividing his belongings, like they do everytime they execute a prisoner.
I do not see that this passage is telling us to forgive everyone that doesn’t know what they do especially since stated a few chapters before it says the opposite. This passage simply states that Jesus asked the Father to forgive them of this one sin of crucifying him, that will not be repeated again in history, that is why they have no idea of what they are doing, besides that, what they are doing is necassary to fulfill God’s plan of salvation. So was God using these men to fulfill his will thus they should be forgiven for this sin, by God?
These were not really his enemies these where soldiers doing thier job that fulfilled God’s will/plan. Not only did they not realize that they where killing Jesus, but they did not realize that killing Jesus was fulfilling the plan of salvation, also its interesting that Jesus has to ask the father to forgive them, instead of forgiving them himself. Why didn’t Jesus just forgive them himself the way he forgave so many others like the lady at the well (casting stones passage)?
If anything, if we where going to apply this to our lives we should ask God the Father to forgive our unrepentant enemies, because that is what Jesus did, Jesus did not forgive them himself nor should we. That is if you want to apply this to your life, which I think you shouldn’t because this specificly refers to the act of crucifying Jesus.
But Do I think it is a sin to forgive someone that does not repent? No I don’t, but I don’t see the scripture that commands us to do so either! The heart of christianity is that you admit you have sinned and you ask to be forgiven!
I need to add that we never find out if Jesus’ killers where forgiven by the father. So Mel, Maybe you miss-spoke or where wrong when you said “Jesus forgave his killers” Because Jesus asked the father to forgive them, he did not forgive them himself, unless you have a passage to support your statement that proves a)Jesus forgave them or b)The father forgave them.
HUH?
Harry - Are you saying that Jesus asked something of the Father and the Father did not affirm His request?
They were forgiven because Jesus requested it be so.
A) Jesus asked they be forgiven, so they were.
B) The Father found the Son’s actions to be perfect in every way a