GaryV was kind enough to provide us with the translation of the Bible that the Oneness (Jesus Only) people apparently use. At least this is what Jesus has to be saying when He prays to the Father in John 17.
17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Me, the hour is come; glorify Me, that I also may glorify Me: 2 As I hast given Myself power over all flesh, that I should give eternal life to as many as I hast given Myself. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know Me the only true God, and Me, whom I hast sent. 4 I have glorified Me on the earth: I have finished the work which I gavest myself to do. 5 And now, O Me, glorify Me with Mine own self with the glory which I had with Myself before the world was. 6 I have manifested My name unto the men which I gavest to Me out of the world: Mine they were, and I gavest them to Me; and they have kept My word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever I hast given Me are of Me. 8 For I have given unto them the words which I gavest Me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from Myself, and they have believed that I didst send Me. 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which I hast given Me; for they are Mine. 10 And all Mine are Mine, and Mine are Mine; and I am glorified in them. 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to Me. Holy Me, keep through Mine own name those whom I hast given Me, that they may be one, as Me [are]. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in My name: those that I gavest Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13 And now come I to Me; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them My word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that I shouldest take them out of the world, but that I shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through My truth: My word is truth. 18 As I hast sent Me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as I, Me[art] in Me, and I in Me, that they also may be one in Me: that the world may believe that I hast sent Me. 22 And the glory which I gavest Me I have given them; that they may be one, even as I are one: 23 I in them, and Me in Me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that I hast sent Me, and hast loved them, as I hast loved Me. 24 Me, I will that they also, whom I hast given Me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which I hast given Me: for I lovedst Myself before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Me, the world hath not known Me: but I have known Me (Thank goodness for that), and these have known that I hast sent Myself. 26 And I have declared unto them My name, and will declare [it]: that the love wherewith I hast loved Myself (There He goes again) may be in them, and I in them.
Remember, if there is only one of them, He can’t have a relationship with Himself. Any of you Oneness People out there, don’t bother to quote the “The Lord is One” touchstones. Instead, spend your energy trying to convince us this isn’t ridiculous. And you Trinitarians who support the Oneness Pimps, see if you can even begin to understand why it’s such an important doctrine.
What I find most interesting is that this apostasy is something that started around the early 20th century. During the time frame of the mid/late1800s through the early 1900s you began to see a major paradigm shift from the truth to paganistic and twisted forms of Christianity. This idea of oneness being associated with most of the Pimps should not be surprising seeing that this same Oneness doctrine nicely coincides with the Azusa Street Revival which happened about the same time. Below is a great link which explains the who and when regarding the Oneness Doctrine.
http://www.watchman.org/profile/onenesspro.htm
Kyle
One of the arguments that Oneness like to use to rebuff the Triune God is the “I AM” quote. However, their argument is weak because the only thing that Jesus was saying is exactly what he stated that I and the Father are one. He never said we are the same. Also, Jesus was in fact there during the creation however this in no way implies that it was Jesus alone. Oneness often times will claim that WE who believe in the Trinity are Polytheists and are going to be damned to hell. Oneness Pentecostals have very little in terms of their arguments. Like I stated in my previous post they have roots in heretical movements including the Azusa Street Revival.
Kyle
(MN: Actually, the Oneness Pentacostals’ roots are as firmly planted in Azusa Street as a giant sequoia in Redwood National Park. And this is really ironic sense the pentecostals always claim to have a deeper understanding of God because of the supposed second experience they describe as the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Of course the question is: Why is there such error from those who have this deeper understanding? )
Because having a profound experience with God is not a substitue for sytematic study and biblical exegesis. There are plent of believers/ministers who have pentecostal beliefs who do NOT espouse extrabiblical beliefs. There are also those who do not embrace the “baptism” who also go offinto errant beliefs and sin. The issue is not Azuza. The oneness heresy was recognized very early on in that movement and it was rejected.
(MN: Ah, but the issue is Azusa. Virtually all of the modern pentecostal practices were spawned, or re-spawned by the leaders of Azusa - start with Kansas and move west. And it would be more accurate to say that those who embrace the idea of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as a subsequence experience, evidenced by speaking in tongues don’t always go into GREATER doctrinal error. However, it is also safe to say that virtually ALL of the Word of Faith pimps are pentecostal in their doctrine. To list a few:
- Copeland
- Avanzini
- Price
- Dollar
- Daddy Hagin
- John Osteen (Joel’s dad, but Joel’s a wimp anyway)
- John Jenkins
- T. Dexter Jakes
- Paul Morton
- Blake (COGIC)
- Noel “The Weasel” Jones
- McClendon
- Paul and Jan Crouch
- Mrs. Weeks and Bishop Weeks
- and On and On.
Like it or not, the common denominator with these people is the experience-based pentecostal practices in which the experience becomes the definer of Scripture.
)
I see your position. You don’t accept the so-called pentecostal experience. I can accept that. Would you also deny Baptist theology because of the errant teachings among Southern Baptists around racism, the absolute submission to men of women or place of women in the local church? (MN: The theology is good, the application is bad. In general, with pentecostals, the theology is bad which forces flawed applications. )
These practices you mention are not at all pentecostal in definition. (MN: Yes, they are by definition pentecostal, unless you are referring to the cults engage in them as well. All of the practices are defended on the basis of what I believe to be a false interpretation and equally faulty application of what happened during the day of Pentecost. ) I grew up Pentecostal and these people would have been sent packing from our denomination. Catholics, Presbyterians, Episcopalians and even DL Moody gave testimony of receiving a experience from the Holy Spirit that deepened his power of preaching, understanding, etc. (MN: Personage doesn’t matter. If one counts on or looks back to an experience it is at best iffy. It certainly isn’t by faith, which is how we are to walk. )
The error and the “ism” in Pentecostalism is the teaching that one MUST speak in tongues to be filled with the Holy Sprit. (MN: Not at all. Calvary Chapel is pentecostal [they “soften it by calling themselves Charismatic] but is is a difference that makes no difference. ) We saw filling as a daily yielding to the presence of the Holy Spirit in one’s life. (MN: That’s good and Biblical. The common denominator between these people is not Azusa but a lack of biblical scholarship and the Love of money. That idiot lunatic pastor who is boycotting the funerals of dead soldiers is a Baptist. (MN: With very bad theology and even worse applications. ) There are many other folk from many other churches who espouse hate (Jerry Falwell who blamed 911 on the pagans in the US for one) (MN: Again, bad theology and [with all due respect to the departed, an occasional case of the stupids. ) and other aberrant teaching to scripture. If all people let the scripture be their guidepost and authority none of these errors would be in place. This would reverse experience being the definer of scripture; on that we certainly agree.
(MN: Well, no. Koresh let the scriptures be his guide post - using his fallen nature, and not Scripture, to interpret it. Jim Jones did the same thing. One cost almost a hundred people their lives. The other cost nearly a thousand theirs. The Bible even says that the Bible (the Gospel) is foolish to the unsaved. And the unsaved, when they use scripture, tend to come up with unbiblical ways of using it. And when we allow our own desires and treasured experiences to come into play, we do the same thing. It may take a while to noticeably deviate, but the deviation will be there.
I am not using the term Pentecostal as a marker for a denomination. I am using it to identify people who, sincerely or not, apply the events of the day of Pentecost to believers today; who see those events as normative. For instance, as I previously stated, Calvary Chapel is pentecostal. They prefer to call themselves Charismatics, but the name doesn’t change anything. There are pentecostal churches that adhere to a reformed theology. Catholic, when they buy into the pentecostal view of BOTHS, tongues, and the rest are Pentecostal. Full Gospel Baptists are pentecostal - they prefer to call themselves Charismatics, but again, a change in the name doesn’t change the essentials.
These people cover a fairly wide range of beliefs. But they all see the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as a separate event in the believers’ lives, speaking in tongues (whether they do it according to 1 Cor or not) as a valid activity and a couple of other things. They all see an experience as making them a part of the “have” crown and separate from the “have not” crowd. They all imply that we are not complete in Christ until we have an experience. This is contrary to the command that we walk by faith and not by sight (experience).
But being Pentecostal doesn’t make you a pimp any more than being dispensational makes you a Christian.
)
Your point about the average pentecostal as believing they are in the “Have” group is true. Is is not also true that those whom the pentecostals believes are the “Have Nots” also believe they are the Haves? That idea is basically why denominations exist; to a lesser or greater degree.
Koresh and Jones did NOT allow the scripture to be their guide post. They twisted it and perverted it’s meaning. David Koresh believed he was the messianic leader for the end times. His mental illness prevented him from correctly handly the Word. They are also not fair examples because both of them had definable mental illnesses. Those two men you used were not the norm. Jerry Falwell was not merely “stupid” he was a mean spirited man who was opposed to the abolition of apartheid in South Africa and called Desmond Tutu a fraud. He presented himself as a racist, despite allowing black folk in his pulpit. He consistently made statements that clearly defined his Theology. If not, then from whence did the statements proceed? Bob Jones also misinterpreted scripture and was a benevolent rascist. What you say about Koresh and Jones is applicable to everyone including you and me. Scripture and the correct application thereof should be the Christian minister’s guide. When people do not have accountability to other leaders there is always room for private interpretation. Some of these issues with the pentecostal, word of faith folk, etc., has to do with the rise of independant congregations and the abandonment of scriptural exegesis.The Pentecostal issue (as I understand it and I was reared in a pentecostal denom) is this: Hyper emotionalism, extrabiblical revelation, and the belief in modern day prophets of the ilk of Elijah and others opens the door for deception and what the NT called the doctrine of devils. DL Moody gave testimony to a “pentecostal” experience; something that happended after his conversion experience that changed his life and ministry, yet it did not change his theological position.
You could subsitute the word “God” everywhere you see “Jesus”, “Spirit” and “Father” and your essay would sound the same. The irony is your own beliefs say you can put the word “God” there, so putting “Jesus” is no different to me since I believe Jesus is the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. I’ve answered most of your Trinitarian objections on my YouTube site and my regular website at kingjamesman.com. Go to YouTube and type in Jesus is the Father and you will find my videos. I’ve also refuted your Calvinistic nonsense, and I say that with all due repugnance since I was once a former Calvinist and unbelieving Trinitarian.
(MN: Actually you haven’t you haven’t done any such thing. And your statement about my own beliefs merely indicates that you really have no understanding about Trinitarian teachings. And actually, the essay wouldn’t sound the same because then you would have a person sending himself, giving things to himself, and being in relationship with himself. Why do you guys seem to think that you have addressed an issue just because you say you have addressed it? It’s a really interesting phenomenon. It’s right up there with believing that somehow, the 1611 Kings James translation is an inspired translation. By the way, I assume the Germans have an inspired translation as well, along with the French, the Burmeses, and the Oclawan Indians in the Amzon Basin. )
Hey Timid, I see logic isn’t your forte. You can substitute the Names but that isn’t the issue.
The issue is as follows……..is Jesus talking to Himself?? If so, Who answered when He was baptized from heaven?? Is Jesus just a Divine Ventriloquist, throwing His voice so it SEEMS the Father is answering??
And,if THAT is true, then you have made Him a deceiver, because He Himself said the voice from heaven was there to confirm HIS Words. In other words, He LIED about that voice being a confirmation from outside Himself. He just threw His voice to deceive the disciples into THINKING this was confirmation from outside Himself.
You make Jesus a 2 bit Vegas novelty act, and a liar.
Also,there’sthe little problem of Jesus giving things to Himself, coming to Himself, claiming to send ANOTHER after He departs when He’s NOT really going to the Father because He IS the father, and He’s not really leaving as He claimed and sending the Spirit because Jesus IS the Spirit and therefore He never left (He lied again) and never sent ANOTHER (which in the Greek means another BESIDE Himself) since He has no other beside Himself to send (Either Jesus just keeps on lying……..or you are. I know which way I’m leaning).
It’s amazing how we continue to debate the oneness v/s Trinitarians. Jesus Christ is God manifested in the flesh. Please read your bibles. This is old news! Let’s talk about how we’re going to advance the kingdom of God. Let’s talk about soul wiinning! Let’s lift Jesus Christ up above the earth! Let’s stop the slander and gossip and preach the GOSPEL! We are supposed to be the light of the world! Are we operating at 20W, 30W, 50W, 75W, or 100W? As a matter of fact……….are we even shining! If we were praying and talking to the Lord, we would be talking about souls! That’s what God is concerned about! kw
(MN: Which Lord? The one that didn’t come into existence until he was born in the flesh or the one who has been with the Father from the beginning? The one who talks to Himself and received the believers from himself or the one who is separate from the Father yet perfectly united in love?
As nice as your statement sounds, you can’t get to your destination if you don’t have a map. The doctrine of the Trinity is part of that map. Or should we work hand in hand with Christian Scientists, Unity School of Christianity, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Swedenborgians? After all, they promote Jesus too.
As I have said before - start a site and talk about Jesus, which ever Jesus you want to talk about. )
i learned something new today. never heard of a swedenborgian until you put it out there melville. oooweee, they are like, so new ageish. thanx for sharing.
Righter says ya’ll going over the top-again! lol
Wow, reading this passage in this light, I can see how Oneness REALLY preaches a gospel of greed. It all makes sense now! It’s all about “Me.”
I had a two month dialogue (debate) with a Oneness guy. He pretty much said that I was lost. I asked him to explain Phil 2 for me also. How is it he submits to himself and then exalts himself, putting himself on the right hand of himself, making his enemies a footstool to himself for himself. I am not being sarcastic the brother could only say that his Spirit was doing this to his human side. In other words his Spirit crushed his flesh, his flesh was praying to his Spirit and the Flesh was baptized and his Spirit was talking from heaven. I gave up on the brother. I gave him OT references in Isaiah and Psalms and NT references throughout the Gospels and Epistles. I feel bad for the dudes. I would object; however, that not all Oneness guys are greedy especially where I am from because the Health and Wealth Gospel doesn’t work in a city with a $17K median income (this has been my experience, I was in a oneness church until I was 21 and never once did I hear the WOF type of preaching).
(MN: Being Oneness certainly isn’t equivalent to being a pimp. The oneness factor simply shows the extent to which the Trinitarian pimps are willing to pimp themselves. )
Here we go GV, this is 3 in a row for us. I agree with you! John 5:31 If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true.
We’re not so far apart Derrick. I think we talk past each other more than truly disagree. Anyway, let’s go for 4 and see where we go from there
Be blessed!!
I’m sorry… should I feel guilty for laughing? I found this HILARIOUS! Some things seem really obvious to me - God is a Triune Being, Three distinct Personalities in One. I agree with Alberto that the oneness doctrine is one of sheer greed. No wonder individuality is taking such root in the world today. I have a not-so-random question… I don’t know much about Azusa, but MN, you imply that it was not a true baptism of the Holy Spirit that took place there. Could someone explain that to me, please? I keep hearing about this great revival in which the church was regenerated or something to that effect… and I thought it was genuine. Help, please, and sorry to digress.
Don’t feel guilty Paula………..nothing wrong with illustrating absurdity with absurdity, and having a bit of a chuckle in the process.
Paula,
Here is a nice short website with some info about the Azusa Street Revival. Oh by the way Oral Roberts is a big fan of this stuff. This fact alone should be enough to know its a bunch of garbage.
http://www.discernment.org/ologians.htm
(MN: Actually, most of the Pimps are more than happy to be associated with Azusa Street. Visit John Coleman’s site. He did a series of webcasts during their centennial last year.
There are also a couple of books by the participants. You can read those and see just how hosed the whole thing was. )
I am currently hearing John Colemans first message. I will listen to them all. This guy Coleman is right on the message. Thanks Melvin for the website.
Kyle
This is not directly related but Jerry Farwell just died. The founder of Liberty University had many Theological gaffs I didn’t agree with. He like Rev. Billy Graham began to push the whole ecumenical movement in later years. Now that I think of it this does have to do with the Pimps. It seams that with each successive era of preachers coming up and passing that the new and upcoming generation is worse in regards to sound biblical doctrine. You do realize that once many of the old heads begin to pass on, who by the way are not very sound scripturally, will nonetheless be replaced by even worse teachers and preachers. Don’t be surprised to see some of these pimps begin to replace the old guard in a major way. Speaking of Oneness TD is supposed to replace Billy Graham. Hmmmmmm. LOL!
Kyle
T. Dexter replace Billy Graham?! I don’t think so. BG does his meetin’s for free and they last for two to three days. TD charges one hun’ed large for one sightin’.
If TD is going to replace BG the big meetin’s is gonna fall off rapidamente! LMBO!
Danny,
It was a joke based upon a previous post Melvin had up. And besides have you ever seen the amount of people who show up at a Billy Graham crusade? You multiply that number by a $100 a pop and you can bet TDs chubby little fingers are doing the math on a calculator. Hmmm 30 thousand people times $100 times three days equals 9 million. TD could never pass that up. LOL!
Kyle
I like this sight because you do a good job of exposing the folly that is taking place is the church world today. However, you are complety WRONG about the Godhead. There are NOT three persons in the Godhead, the Bible NEVER says this. The best example I can think of about the Godhead is water or H2O… it can be a liquid, it can be a gas, and it can be a solid… and it can be ALL THREE at the SAME time, but there is only ONE molecular formular H2O. Jesus Christ was not/is not God Jr as it were. The Bible says (and the scripture escapes me at the moment) God was MANIFESTED in the flesh. Jesus is a MANIFESTATION of God. Just as you and I are manifested in clothing, but the clothing isn’t our second or third person. The Bible says in the 1st Epistle of John 3:16 “here by we perceive the love of God in that HE laid down HIS life for us”… now if Jesus was something other than God, when did God die? Now I’m not saying that God died, because we KNOW that God is eternal… but his BODY did. Jesus was/is Gods’ body.
(MN: Explain why the Oneness Translation is so obviously foolish before you go on much more. I urge folks to not even discuss it with you until you explain why the New Oneness Translation is not down right irrational and not the result of insisting that Jesus is the Father, is the Holy Spirit. Don’t bother chasing down any other arguments. First explain away John 17 from a Oneness perspective. That or, to be somewhat harsh, stop using up bandwidth. )
Hey Bishop…………feel free to actually look up the word “manifested” in the Greek. That will save me the time of proving your ridiculous illustration about “clothing” wrong.
Sorry to jump in, Bishop612 probably is not going to explain anything, because he can’t. It’s indefensible.
Bishop612 - You need more chemistry classes. H2O is 2 parts H and one part O. All together as ONE. That’s 3 parts that make one molecule of water.
You’ve shown an earthly example of trinity and don’t even know it
.
Never mind if you are married you are 2 who have become one flesh.
I will NEVER try to (as YOU put it explain AWAY) scripture, but I will be more than happy to expound on John 17 for you, and I won’t take the cowardly treck YOU took by answering a question with a question. Also let me make it plain, I don’t condone “retranslations” of scripture, the Bible is the perfect word of God, and speaks well enough for itself. Now for the sake of time, I won’t go through John 17 verse by verse (perhaps at a later time) but the gist of John 17, and all of the gospils where Jesus prayed was communication between son (his human nature) and father (his divine nature). I’m a bit pressed for time, but I will come back and go much further in depth at a later time. However, in the mean time please answer my question about John 3:16, and while you’re at expound on Acts 20:28 as well. Eventhough we disagree on this subject, I still appreciate this site… the work you are doing is MUCH needed. There are honest sincere people out there who are truely seeking God and are being duped.
(MN: You are free to consider my cowardly or anything else. But the rule stands. And we have all the time in the world to wait for you to get the time. I will answer you question on John 3:16 after you address the initial issue and explain away John 17. The brief explanation you just gave makes no sense what so ever. One “nature” is talking to another “nature”? Please. And I suppose when the Son sent the Holy Spirit it was the human nature communicating with…what?… His holy nature? As a couple of people have pointed out - you’re making no sense. Take your time Bishop, build a case and then come back and talk to me. )
By the way Bishop, you did answer a question with a question. You asked a question about 1 John 3:16. Don’t you remember. Are you saying you are cowardly? Interesting.
I have debated Oneness folks since my youth and THEY STILL DON’T MAKE ANY SENSE TO ME!!! And some of them are even part of my physical family. They know how I feel, I tell them it does not make any sense too. And I love them enough to tell them “IT IS WRONG”, just as I say here to any that fall for that LIE.
Usually the debate ends with them looking at me and saying “just keep reading, praying and the Lord will reveal it to you”. Well it’s been OVER 20 YEARS AND I STILL DON’T UNDERSTAND THEM ANY BETTER THAN THE FIRST DAY I HEARD THE ONENESS DOCTRINE MESS!!!
It’s like “tithing”, made up and rooted in a most awkward use of scripture.
Who was Jesus speaking to in Matthew 27:46? Oh his “spirit nature” was forsaking his “body nature” and his “body nature” cried out for his “spirit nature”
. What a mess! You’ve got to totally change, twist and contradict scripture just to achieve the Oneness mindset.
IC I’m 100% in agreement with you on the oneness twist and contradiction of Scripture,
it is the worst! This man named Gino Jennings a sadness (aka oneness) preacher is always talking about “am I right about it”. Unfortunately, he’s totally wrong about it- his Oneness theology. i was told by one of the fake Oneness self-called apostles that when I get the Holy Ghost, then I’ll understand it. yeah, sure.
Just curious, what do you believe about tithes?
(MN: You don’t get to change the subject yet. Your last comment didn’t really say anything except to repeat your self. You still have to explain why the Oneness version of John 17 can be avoided. BTW if you want to see my stand on tithing look at the essay on the subject. Top right-hand side of the page. If you respond, respond to what I say. Please don’t mindlessly quote Malachi and the other touchstones involving the Pharisees, Jesus, and fish. )
Melvin, have you ever tried to do a “Oneness” styled read of John 8? I almost passed out trying to do it, partly from laughter and partly from exhaustion of trying to twist scripture.
I don’t know any other scripture where Jesus made it so clear that although he is I AM, that he is NOT HIS FATHER. He even says they are 2 witnesses. With the Holy Spirit, you’ve got “Trinity”.
Independentconservative, after reading your post I started bustin’ up! OOOweee, I couldn’t have said it better. That ” oneness”doctrine is a mess! They don’t even get it themselves…lol. No wonder why them “oneness” folks are so messed up in their thinking. Must have something to do with all them extrabiblical REVELATIONS that only them “Pharissees, oops I mean “oneness” folks are getting. Well whatever revelations they are gettin’ I sure don’t want them. Cause’ those folks are really messed up. WHAT A MESS!!
Bishop, where do you get the idea SCRIPTURALLY that the Divine nature and the humanity of Christ are so completely divorced from each other??
Tell me Bishy, when Christ was baptized, why did those present HEAR A VOICE from heaven?? Was Jesus just a REALLY good ventriloquist??
How is it that His natures are SO separate (according to YOU) that they don’t even share THE SAME PHYSICAL LOCALITY??
Jesus is on earth………….but the voice comes from heaven (as well as the dove). THEN the voice refers to Christ as “HIM”, not as “I”.
Why was God deceiving the disciples by making them believe that the Father and the Spirit were separate??
How is it that Jesus returns to HIMSELF in Heaven?? Is Jesus sitting on HIS OWN right hand in Heaven right now?? And if so, I wonder if His hand’s asleep from sitting on it for 2000 years??
Please………..Christ is CLEARLY speaking to ANOTHER in John 17. He is ASKING for things from another. He is DEFERRING to another. He is praying to another. NOT TO HIMSELF.
YOUR God may be a schizophrenic ventriloquist deceiver, but the God of Scripture is not.
Bad enough you have a God Who talks to Himself like a lunatic, you have a God Who ANSWERS BACK to Himself like a schizo, then throws His voice to DECEIVE others into believing that He’s NOT talking to Himself.
Even worse, you have a Christ Who prays to HIMSELF, asking Himself to SEND Himself after He HIMSELF leaves.
“I will ask the Father, and He will send you ANOTHER Comforter……….” Errrr……….look up the word “Another” in the Greek Bishy. It means ONE BESIDE…………not the SAME PERSON.
We should re-translate THAT too.
“I will ask Myself, and I will send Myself (though I just lied and told you it was ANOTHER, not ME) that I may be with you always”.
How about this one??
Jhn 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Oneness translation………..
Jhn 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I GO AWAY (though I am secretly LYING to you because I’m not REALLY going anywhere.): for if I go not away (wink wink), I will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send Me unto you.
Let’s see………….Jesus claims to be leaving. But He’s not, because He’s coming. And somehow it’s better for us that He leaves so that He can come. But why would He have to COME when all He has to do is STAY to begin with since He’s already here anyway?? Why is He telling us He cannot come unless He leaves?? According to you, the same one coming is the same one leaving. So He’s not really leaving at all, for if He left that would mean He’s gone, but He can’t be gone because Jesus just promised us He would be here with us………….but He can’t be here with us or else He cannot come.
Yeah…………..it’s all clear now
Gary, Gary. Pretty clever. Hand fell asleep because he has been sitting on it for 2000 years? Wow. That is some good material.
Good way to make the oneness “translation” clear, and easily decipherable. Thanks.
The Oneness doctrine is worse than the old Abbott and Costello, “Who’s on first” skit!
yeah, sorta like the you know, that i know, that You know, that I know that, YOU know, that I know…..
gary, re: your last paragraph…
so i guess their Jesus doesn’t know whether he’s coming or going
Why do I hear Norman (Android #1) trying to figure out the logical conundrum he was forced into by Spock?
Norman: But there was no explosion.
Harry Mudd: I lied.
Norman: But…
Kirk: He lied. Everything Harry tells you is a lie. Remember that. Everything Harry tells you is a lie.
Harry Mudd: Now, listen to this carefully, Norman. I am lying.
Norman: You say you are…lying, but if everything you say is a lie then you are telling the truth but you cannot tell the truth because everything you say is a lie but you lie, you tell the truth, but you cannot for you lie…illogical! Illogical!
Big Mel, I want to address something that Mr. Bishop612 said if you don’t mind. Hey Bish, you asked someone to expound on Acts 20:28 without stating your reason why. There’s a few things going on in this verse. What is it that you need clarification on? Wait, let me guess…. since you believe that the Godhead is interchangeable, let me take a stab at it and say that maybe you are confused by the usage of [he] in Acts 20:28. The he is not referring to the Holy Ghost. Remember, Scripture interprets Scripture. Is there anywhere else in the Scriptures where it says that the Holy Ghost purchased the Church with his blood? No. But we do know that the Scriptures teach that Jesus paid a ransome for many and that He is God (Matt.20:28, 1 Tim. 2:5-6) A Spirit has no flesh or blood and the Scriptures don’t teach that the Holy Ghost ever took on the form of man- but the Son of God did, Who also died to redeem mankind (Rom. 8:3, John 3: 16) Please, Mr. Bishop, no mind games with the verses. Rightly divided, you will know that Paul is first admonishing the elders that it is the Holy Ghost that made them overseers of the flock, then he goes on to remind them that it was God who purchased the Church with His blood. God in vs. 28 is Jesus (Eph.1:3-14) This is why Paul is telling them to take heed to themselves so that they keep in mind not to lord over the sheep and realize that God put them in authority to feed and be examples to the flock (1 Pet. 5:1-3) If this isn’t what you had in mind, then let us know what you meant and you expound on Acts 20:28.
Wow Brother Melvin, I thought the Prosperity Pimps got together and had you booted off the internet, because I couldn’t log on to this site the past few days. Anyway, back to the subject at hand. This subject very mysterious, the Bible even says so I Timothy 3:16 “and w/out controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh… now if Jesus Christ isn’t God, when was God manifest in the flesh? And lets just have an intelligent debate (no need for name calling, my apologies for calling you a coward) , after all we are seeking truth. Now in the gospel accordng to John 17 Jesus is praying (and let me reiterate that I’m NOT defending the translation on the head of this section). I think this paralells Matthew 26… in these scriptures, Jesus is coming to terms with his assigment, in Matthew he was struggeling with it (the flesh didn’t want to suffer), and in John he has accepted it, and is ministering to the deciples. It is important to understand that Jesus is the Godman, that’s to say he was 100% man, AND 100% God (that is a mystery). His conception is a mystery (nobody can definatively explain that, scientifically, it’s impossible… it’s a mystery). The flesh side had every human emotions there is, God needed it to be that way so we could have a perfect example to follow. If Jesus is something other than God, and devine, now you’re dealing with polythesim. And we KNOW that’s not true Isaiah 44:6 “Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of host; I am the first and the last, and beside me there is no God.”
How foolish you sound in believeing that God is anything other than One. I will MORE than gladly take you on a journey throughout the scripture proving the ‘oneness’ of the Godhead.
OOOOH!!! LOOK everybody……….it’s an APOSTLE who’s going to take us on a journey through Scripture!! Everybody go pee now before we leave. We’re not stopping for you until the journey is over.
OK Apostle………put her in drive and let’s see whatcha got!!
The last time I’ve checked with the Boss Himself, that position is closed Rev 21:14
Hey Gary, I wonder if there’s a “journey throughout the scripture proving” that this guy is actually an Apostle.
Actually Bro D,you and Melvin and IC and I just TOOK that journey through Scripture not too long ago right on this very blog.
Conclusion?? NOT.
I take that journey every day on my blog. It doesn’t matter how many times you prove the Office of Apostle ceased with the death of John, you still won’t convince the sheeple that it has. It’s like beating your head against the wall!
Keep fighting the good fight Philly!!
This Bishop guy should not be teaching anything until he gets it right. It says that the word became flesh and everyone knows that Jesus is the word of God. Not only that who was talking to Peter, James, and John when a voice came down from heaven saying “This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased.” Was he talking about himself? I could go on and on with scripture that would put him out of business but, I will say this if you are reading Bishop612 you need to go back to the basics….For when for the time you ought to be teachers, you have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. Heb. 5:12
Don’t comment until God has filled you with the true Holy Ghost!
Errrrrrrr……as opposed to the “fake Holy Ghost”?? How do we know that YOUR Holy Ghost isn’t the fake one,HMMMMMMM???
I know!!! Since you is an Apostle and all, maybe you can do some of the works of an Apostle by the “Holy Ghost” YOU follow??
HEY EVERYONE!!!! Apostle MATT is gonna heal the sick!! Then he’s gonna let a poisonous snake bite him!! Then he’s gonna pass out some Healing Hankies!!
Then the showstopper……….you guessed it……..RAISE THE DEAD!!
Just curious,you’re not the ORIGINAL Apostle Matthew are you??
The issue with the deity of Christ for trinitarians because we know he is God.When Christ came to save a dying world he did so as God but took the limitations of man upon himself yet he was still fully God.Matthew 1:23 bears witness to his deity as well John 1:1.You see one of the many erroneous doctrines taken by modalists is that Jesus was not God while on earth which is a lie.Since we know he has always been God he was also man which is known as the hypostatic union.So when Christ died it was his human nature doing what was natural after enduring what he did.God cannot die but we see he laid down his life for us and on the 3rd day he raised it up again.Please explain why Christ spoke of the father he used words like with in John 17:5.Also take a look at verse 22 when he says the father and he are one as he and the world are one.Am I a manifestation of Jesus?!I would have to be according to oneness doctrine since I am part of the world and like every other living being.Jesus was clearly talking about his unity(oneness) with the father which also includes the Holy Spirit.Well if you look at verse 23 he speaks of being perfected in UNITY which leaves no room for further discussion.God in ONE in unity yet 3 distinct persons.See 1 John 5:7 which sums it up for there are 3 that bear record in heaven and these 3 are one.
(MN: Two things: the “Enter” key and the space bar at the bottom of your keyboard.
Other than that, not a bad summary of the trinitarian view. )
No sir you wouldn’t be a manifestation of God, because your mother and father (a natural man)came together and conceived you. God produced himself a means to redeem man. If you believe in trinity, then you can’t believe Matt 1:23… according to you Jesus is a “distinct person” of the Godhead. I’d like to call your attention to I Tim 3:16 “and w/out contraversy great is the mystery of godliness; God was manifest in the flesh…” now if Jesus Christ isn’t God, when did God manifest himself in flesh? Look at St. John 8:28 ” Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29 And he that sent me is with me; the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.” God did just dump out a God Jr. because anything less than him wouldn’t have had any power.
(MN: You just repeated yourself and still didn’t address John 17. You get one more time to do so and I will have to dismiss you on the discussion of the Trinity. Step it up Bishop! I know you can do better than you have. Again, tell us why John 17 isn’t as ridiculous as it sounds if there is only one person? Who does the Father give to, who does the Son receive from, who is the Holy Spirit sent by? Answer these and you are free to frolick about this posting like a new born lamb. )
THANK YOU GUYS so much… Kyle, I went to http://www.discernment.org/ologians.htm but somehow I ended up at an even better explication, at http://www.letusreason.org/Pent57.htm. It made so much more sense, I can now understand the origin of many false doctrines. Gary V… lol… thanks. Bless, all!
Letusreason.org is a great Christian resource. Anybody who has never been there should check it out.
More than you’ll ever learn from a pimp, for FREE!
Paula,
Its kind of scary to see what went on during the 1906 Azusa Street Revival. That being said we have a church in this area that has people making animal noises and convulsing on the floor when they are filled with the spirit. I’m sorry to tell them that the spirit is NOT of God. We also have an Assemblies of God Church here in upstate NY and they are one of the largest congregations in the area. I temporarily went to that church before I knew better. The Church had kind of a Joel Osteen appeal yet smaller with a bunch of hand waiving, gibberish, and jumping up and down. Oh! by the way did I tell you that the Assemblies of God was a splinter off of the Azusa Street Apostasy.
Kyle
Kyle, you stated that the Assemblies of God church you attended had a “bunch of hand waving,gibberish, and jumping up and down”. Is there a certain way you should respond when the Holy Spirit comes upon you? Please back this up with Scripture. It is interesting that so many people seem to have their own blueprint as to how Christinas should behave.
I don’t think the bishop will be back to explain his foolishness. Illustrating the trinity from a human mindset. NO SCRIPTURE used. He is probably pentecostal, cos you know the pentecostals use MANIFEST, MANIFESTED, MANIFESTATION alot
Isn’t it wierd. We try to explain the Deity of Christ to JW’s and the person of Christ to Oneness dudes. It is two extremes. I tell you what once I understood what the Oneness Camp was saying. I was out the door. I think their are a lot of individuals who are sitting in these ministires who don’t understand the Oneness position. I am not saying they are without excuse, but I tell you what until I started to investigate the Theology of these individuals I all thought we were in the same game. I just thought we baptized differently than the Baptist folks. I didn’t understand we were redefining the nature of God.
Luke 23:46–And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, “Myself, into MY hands I commit My spirit.”
Another nice find FourPointer
Just to fill you guys in on an interesting thing. I know this thread has long ended but this being my 3rd week I’m still catching up on archival stuff.
In a discourse with a oneness work associate I asked him to explain Rev 5:1-7.
I asked if he agreed that the one sitting on the throne was God. He did. I asked if he agreed that “a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes” was Christ. He agreed. I said so explain then how the fact that the bible states that ” And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.” Is it him manifesting himself to take the book from himself. He says he has to go back and check and further research before he answers.
Stay tuned, same thread, same blog. I am overly curious to hear the response. I will keep us all filled in.
(MN: Nigel, you can comment on a posting as long as it’s open. Many a thread has been resurrected by some one visiting for the first time. )
The Godhead is a mystery and who knows the things of God save the Spirit of God? You base your belief on a term that itself cannot be verified in the scripture(Trinity). How foolish can that be? Your lack of understanding has caused you give your own interrpretation to to scripture that are otherwise sealed to the carnal mind. Someone mentioned Revelation 5:1-7. I strongly advise you, by the guidance of the Holy Ghost, seek first an understanding of what it is you are quoting because to quote without an understanding would be blasphemy. May peace and grace abound.
Apostle Matty……….can you verify your Apostleship by the Scripture?? I mean, your trite use of Oneness cliches is really impressive and all, but we wanna see how you know you’re an Apostle via Scripture before leaving a breadtrail for you to the Trinity.
Or God come to you in a vision and tell you that you is an Apostle?? I thought my mom told me I was am Apostle once……….but she really said I was “impossible”. They sound a lot alike.
Maybe that was what God was trying to tell you too??
You are SO dumb. Apostolics (or Oneness Pentecostals) use the King James Version of the Bible. You are so daft it beggars belief.
The Jews understand that God is One. Jesus was fully God and fully man - every trinitarian and Oneness believe this. Therefore, he could speak from 2 perspectives and it was as a MAN that he prayed.
Otherwise you have the even DUMBER situation of God the Son praying to God the Father - Go write a version about that.
You are sick, offensive and in need of prayer.
Well that was a neat party trick that Jesus did when He got baptized….
djenk23, I call that Holy Ventriloquism at best, downright DECEPTION at worst. If Jesus was just throwing His voice at His baptism then He deceived the people there. If He was just throwing His voice at the Mount of Transfiguration, same thing.
He PURPOSELY left the disciples with the ERRONEOUS impression that ANOTHER Divine Person was validating Him and His ministry.
The Oneness Jesus is a deceiver………
Hey NLBM, did the Holy Spirit encourage you to come someone dumb, sick and offensive? Maybe we have two different spirits. Just curious.
Righter agrees…