Okay, I have been giving Mr. Roberts a pass over the last couple of years. Maybe it was because he runs a real live school and produces real live lawyers. Or maybe it’s because he doesn’t show up on TBN, and CBN tends not to be as all pervasive as TBN.
Yes, he has stepped in major piles of theological pooh, made statements that would cause even the casually thoughtful Christian to cringe, and makes excellent fodder for the Comedy Channel. But until today, I haven’t had much to say about the man’s dealing and relationships. Until today.
On the current events page, at Regent’s site, there is a picture of one of the main buildings at Regent (top left hand corner). Notice the words carved in stone: Developing Christian Leadership.” Their focus is Christian leadership. Christian. Not mostly Christian. Not generally Christian. Not kinda Christian. They say Christian leadership.
Now take a look at the leader Pat Robertson chose to give the commencement speech at the graduation of 1004 people who graduated with a law degree from a college designed to develop Christian Leadership.
That’s right. Pat Robertson chose a Mormon, presidential candidate Mitt Romney, to speak to the class. That must be because there are no Christian leaders out there capable of addressing the graduates.
I won’t mention the fact that IndependentConservative has been foaming at the mouth at the mere mention of the thought of Christians actually voting for a Mormon for presidential candidate. I can imagine that he had a stroke when he woke up this morning and reviewed the news article.
You have to understand that not only are Mormons NOT Christians, their very doctrinal statement and writings make it clear that they consider historic Christianity to be the false church. They are hostile to historic Christian. They are not simply another denomination of Christianity. They aren’t a separate branch coming out of the same Jewish traditions as Christianity. They are members of an organization founded by a thug and a con artist who believed that you have to have a lot of children with a lot of wives so you can become a god ruling over your own private universe.
Mr. Robertson has helped the generic, biblically stupid Christian take yet another step toward the collapse of the promotion of sound doctrine. For crying out loud, except for the public respectability and credibility, Patty Boy may as well have invited the Honorable Calypso Louie (aka Louis Farrakhan) to speak at the university established to develop Christian leadership.
You have to wonder if Patty Boy attempted to present the gospel to Mitt or if they just sat and had a good time. I hope Patty Boy understands that if Mitt dies in his sins (and as a Mormon he is unregenerate) he will spend an eternity in the lake of fire. Does Patty Boy consider a political coup to be more important than the loss of a soul? Is political clout more important than conformity to the image of Christ (Romans 12:1,2)?
Patty Boy apparently sent a letter to folks explaining why he invited Mitt to speak. I have not been able to get my hands on it. Of course, I’m not trying real hard. I suspect it is going to be like reading a letter from someone explaining why they defaced the Mona Lisa or blew up the Great Pyramid in Egypt.
I guess there are several types of pimps. We talk about the Pulpit Pimps like Kenneth Copeland regularly here. There are also Poverty Pimps like Jesse (She’s Having My Baby) Jackson and Al Sharpton. Now I perceive that within Christendom there are also what can best be described as Political Pimps like Robertson. Of course, some of the pimps run across all three areas.
I think he got jealous of the attention you were giving to Cashflow, Copeland, Jakester, and the like, and decided to find a way into your heart. Especially since most of America sees him as a joke anyway. This was his last ditch effort to prove to the mighty pimpality that he is worthy to be counted among them. Don’t be surprised when you suddenly see him popping up next to the Jakcopstercashflow (that’s Jakes, Copeland, and Cashflow) scene. It’s nice to know, Melvin, that you are not a respecter of persons (lol).
(MN: Hey! I’m an equal opportunity belittler. )
I will apologize later for again bring up the subject of training for the so called ministry,
I’m still looking for scripture to support the need for formal training, I can’t find it. Now this is just me but all I can see is pride, Christ and Paul taught that we are to serve one another, to love one another; study to show ourselves approved unto God “not man”, to rightly divide his word by his Spirit, Jesus clearly states the world will know us not by the knowledge we process but in the love we share for each other; is love expressed in education and knowledge?
This is not to say having an education is a bad thing but apparently it has become our primary focus, for some reason we think because a person has a degree in of all things “divinity” that this person is qualified to lead the people of God, I NEED SCRIPTURE to support that belief, not opinion, not ” what are we suppose to do”
I believe the reason the world is following after the pimp’s pope, and Dr. of Divinity is simple, we do not love one another, neither do we love God enough to trust his word, his Spirit to guide us, we need a man to lead us, are we any different then Israel.
1Sa 10:18 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.
1Sa 10:19 And ye have this day rejected your God, who himself saved you out of all your adversities and your tribulations; and ye have said unto him, [Nay], but set a king over us. Now therefore present yourselves before the LORD by your tribes, and by your thousands.
Above scripture is the reason why today’s so called Christianity does not evoke in the unbeliever the desire to asked “what must I do to be saved” even the unbeliever see’s no difference in our so called faith then what they see in any other religion, We are more educated today this is true are we more loving is not love how we reflex the image and likeness of the living God. That tree is still in the middle of our soul and we still desire its fruit, sad
Msamu,
Please re-read your post. Take notice of all of the grammatical errors and poor sentence stucture. Then rethink the context of the scripture (in I Samuel 10) that you used and ask yourself if it really applies to the point you’re trying to make. Did you rightly divide this word of truth? Where does the bible state to do this “by his Spirit” as you state? Then follow your reasoning in the following statement:
I’m still looking for scripture to support the need for formal training, I can’t find it
I have a question. Where is the scripture that supports NOT having formal training? Sorry for you msamu but you’re not making a great case for your standing on education. By the way, if you feel I misunderstood you, then you have to accept responsibility for that. You did not communicate your point well at all.
You ask this question: is love expressed in education and knowledge?
Now it is said that there are no dumb questions but… I would submit to you that your parents educated you and gave you the knowledge that they did BECAUSE they loved you. I would submit that if you have children of your own, that you do the same thing. Jesus gave knowledge to his disciples as an expression of his love for them. We have the bible (a very educating work in my not so humble opinion) preserved through the ages as an expression of God’s love toward us. As a matter of fact, I’m taking the time to post this because I love you! Do you need anymore evidence?
Although I agree that Christian love is missing from today’s church and our witness is very weak, the problem is more because of a LACK of education (being taught how we are to live in this world) rather than because of it.
Bro Lawrence D: Please re-read your post. Take notice of all of the grammatical errors and poor sentence structure.
Msamu: Mr. Larawance D, please accept my apologies for the grammatical error’s, unfortunately you might have to suffer through some more.
Bro. Lawrence D: Then rethink the context of the scripture (in I Samuel 10) that you used and ask yourself if it really applies to the point you’re trying to make. Did you rightly divide this word of truth?
Msamu: I do not have to rethink the context of
1Sam10:18-19, my analogy parallels the behavior of man then and now, as our teacher the Old Testament reviles man’s nature which is to be lead by man and as Israel rejected God we are doing same today. I submit that we seek the accolades and approval of the world; we reject God’s ability to guide us through his word which is his Spirit and seek the wisdom of the educated to lead us, this is how we reject God.
Bro. Lawrence D:Where does the bible state to do this “by his Spirit” as you state?
The Bible:1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. Since we cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God naturally we would need “his Spirit” to understand his word.
Mr. Lawrence D: Then follow your reasoning in the following statement: I’m still looking for scripture to support the need for formal training, I can’t find it I have a question. Where is the scripture that supports NOT having formal training? Sorry for you msamu but you’re not making a great case for your standing on education. By the way, if you feel I misunderstood you, then you have to accept responsibility for that. You did not communicate your point well at all.
Msamu: The only example I can find in the bible are 12 ignorant or unlearned men with the Holy Spirit that changed the world, please give an example to support your position.
Mr. Lawrence d: You ask this question: is love expressed in education and knowledge?
Now it is said that there are no dumb questions but… I would submit to you that your parents educated you and gave you the knowledge that they did BECAUSE they loved you. I would submit that if you have children of your own, that you do the same thing. Jesus gave knowledge to his disciples as an expression of his love for them. We have the bible (a very educating work in my not so humble opinion) preserved through the ages as an expression of God’s love toward us. As a matter of fact, I’m taking the time to post this because I love you! Do you need anymore evidence?
Msamu:Yes I do, How does the world know the Christian is different?, what does the bible teach that makes the Christian faith different from all the other religions of the world ,can it be our knowledge, education and a wall full of degrees, but wait the world has knowledge and education and a wall full of degrees. Can it be the buildings we erect to worship in, but the world also erects buildings to worship. Maybe it’s our good work’s that separate the Christian, Ahh but the world also has it’s good work’s. Sorry Mr. Lawrence D none of these thing’s separates the Christian from the world but love, but wait the world also has love, so what’s this love that separates the Christian from the world’s kind of love, is this love based on knowledge, wisdom, understanding or is it only the kind of love that God can give us through his spirit?, does a child understand why he or she love’s it’s mother and father, no a child loves unconditionally, not because he or she understands not because he or she was taught to, a child just loves; as we should. Knowledge did not die for you, wisdom did not die for you, your education will not die for you, God’s love has died for you, wil your love die for another?
Bro. Lawrence D: Although I agree that Christian love is missing from today’s church and our witness is very weak, the problem is more because of a LACK of education (being taught how we are to live in this world) rather than because of it.
Msamu:I could not disagree with you more on the above statement, It is not for a lack of education it’s for a lack of love. If love is missing we cannot be of God for God is Love, and that is not debatable.
Much Lov Bro
Msamu,
I’m going to try one more time to reason with you in intelligence. This time if you don’t get it, then I’ll leave you to your willful ignorance. (Sorry if you feel that’s unnecessarily harsh but I think it’s accurate)
It seems as though we are not using the same definition of education. I think you are intelligent enough to know that even when you read the bible you are educating yourself. You don’t wait to hear voices instructing you but you trust what you read. However, as you have shown in your poor use of scripture, some of us still need help. God has blessed other men, with more time, energy, and money than us, to dedicate themselves fully to the task of making the Word of God easier to understand. We are never to solely trust in them but it is okay to consider their work in our study. God blessed them with insight. It would be foolish to think that God has a problem with them sharing it. In fact if you really believe that we should not listen or be led by men then WHY SHOULD I LISTEN TO YOU? Aren’t you just a man?
In regards to your answering my question with a reference to I Cor 2:14 you missed my point entirely. In your previous post you wrote: Christ and Paul taught that we are to serve one another, to love one another; study to show ourselves approved unto God “not man”, to rightly divide his word by his Spirit”, which is an allusion to II Timothy 2:15. You added the words “by his Spirit”. So my question was as to where to find those words in that verse. They’re not there.
Now in regards to the verse in Corinthians itself, I’ll repeat a familiar phrase: CONTEXT!CONTEXT!CONTEXT! This verse is a reference to an unconverted individual who is not able to access an indwelt Spirit who would illuminate the Word of God to him. But if you claim that the Spirit teaches you, then why wouldn’t you teach others? Are you lazy? Selfish? Unsure of the Spirits’ presence in your life? Is it every man for himself with you? It’s not that way with God. Read Galatians 6:2.
You make mention of the 12 Apostles as being ignorant and unlearned men. I personally believe that if I had Jesus Christ as my personal instructor over a 3 year period I could not be ignorant or unlearned. Read Acts 4:1-13 and you will see that they were referred to as being such by some men among whom I don’t think you would want to number yourself. These men knew that Peter and John had not been educated in the rabbinical schools nor did they have any formal training in OT theology. However in II Peter 2:13 Peter says that “they which are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.” Was Peter including himself when he used the term unlearned? I hope you’re getting this.
I’m really missing your point about the world being able to tell the difference between themselves and Christians. Didn’t you read I Corinthians 2:14 before you used it? Now would be an instance when that verse would be applicable. Anyway, God does the drawing, convicting, and difference making by His Spirit. (St. John 16:7-11) The world hates us for whatever we do. Stop trying to prove your Christianity to the world. That’s not what God commissioned us to do. He commissioned us to preach the gospel and to defend the faith.
You say: Knowledge did not die for you, wisdom did not die for you, your education will not die for you, God’s love has died for you, will your love die for another? I again miss your point and it is again because you communicated it poorly. Sounds like someone needs an education, but I digress.
Do you know that Christ loved you enough to die for you? If you do, then that’s knowledge. Have you put your faith in Him for your eternal salvation? If so, that’s pretty wise. Do you know that you didn’t deserve it and that He chose to love you by His grace? If so, then you’ve gained an understanding. Don’t think that any of those elements are separate from God’s love or the love that we are to exibit in the world. If you really love someone, then you will seek to enhance them all in that person.
Finally, I stand by my statement. Those who have not been taught how to love in the Christian way, demonstrate their ignorance constantly. Because we come out of the world not knowing how to live the Christian life, it is imperative that we are shown how.
I urge you to reconsider your stance on the benefits of education in the life of the believer and then to obtain one yourself!
Mr. Lawrence D.
Are you a Catholic, according to your reasoning men like Martin Luther should have just trusted and accepted the fact that God blessed men, educated men like himself with insight and time to study the word, why rebel, why reform why seek God for understanding; you know why Bro. because they were wrong because men are flawed, what directed Mr. Luther to rightly divide the word, was it a little voice talking to him ,maybe; or maybe the Spirit of truth guided Mr. Luther because Mr. Luther desired truth and an understanding that he could not get from any man, I don’t expect you to understand that because your to busy defending your education so to you it just doesn’t make sense, you would say, why would God need to do that today we have his word, well Mr. Lawrence because of men like the pimp’s the pope’s and those in power seek to control us so that we would submit to them thinking were submitting to God.
Do you belong to a denomination Mr. Lawrence which one of the more then 1500 Christian denominations lead by educated and non-educated men do you ascribe to and who’s right and who’s wrong? again man at his best. No I will trust in no man or in any denomination, I elect to trust God, so if I hear a teaching out of the mouth of any man even a Luther I will open up my bible, I will pray and humbly seek his face and the spirit of truth which the father has given to guide each believers life thus protecting the believer from men and error guiding the believer in all truth; now I don’t expect you to understand what I’m saying because your faith lies in your statement. Even through the bible wrongs us to “trust no man”
“God has blessed other men, with more time, energy, and money than us, to dedicate them fully to the task of making the Word of God easier to understand. We are never to solely trust in them but it is okay to consider their work in our study. God blessed them with insight. It would be foolish to think that God has a problem with them sharing it.”
Why do you make the word of God sound like its rocket science it’s not, it’s so simple even a child can understand it, it’s where your heart is not your intellect, and that’s why not many wise are called, man has made it difficult so as to separate the have’s from the have not’s the leaders and the followers, so you spin your game and follow your leaders, I’ll trust the word of God and the spirit of truth to guide me.
Please understand, I’ve never been involved in the so-called faith movement or the name it claim it were little god’s thing, laying on of the hands and on and on, my faith is rooted in God’s word and his Spirit which is true I know God has my best interest at heart, he will direct my steps, and if I get it wrong, which I will because hay who’s got absolute truth anyway but God, I pray God will correct me by his word.
I really don’t expect you to understand my point on love but bro. what you said on love is really the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard, but you go and wag that Dog Bro.
(MN: People, people! Surely we have figured out by now that this conversation has been going the way of the seminary discussion a couple of months ago! I suggest we call this one quits. This dance could go on forever with absolutely no resolution. )
Don’t worry Mel I promised that it would be my last attempt to reason with him. You can see what it got me. Another dead horse beaten!!!
Actually even the Jewish religion is not of God see Romans, Galations, 1 and 2 Cor., Hebrews, etc.)
(MN: Michelle, stop. We all have access to Bible software of one kind or another. Just give us the references unless you have an overpowering reason to include the text. )
Brother, I’ve long known that Robertson was no good. I only kept quite about it for a while and then I had to unload on him back in January. He’s got about 7 months to make that supposed prophesy come true and he better not try and claim it was the shooting at Virginia Tech.
I’ve known about him hooking up with Mitt since it was scheduled a while back. Melvin, every Republican out there is hooking up with Mitt.
The Bush Camp is in bed with Mitt too.
They’ve dubbed him the savior of their party.
Hugh Hewitt (Catholic) got it started and it’s been like watching a bunch of idiots tumble downhill since.
The only current hold out is James Dobson and I’m not holding my breath! His legs might (with a high probability) get weak the closer we get to November 2008.
The key phrase you’re going to hear is “but he agrees with our values” which is bogus. I’ll vote for a Christian without a chance of winning before I put my vote behind the bishop of a cult. I don’t live in Utah where only Mormons are on the ballot! I’ll choose a loser Christian before I choose the cult leader.
When are they going to ask Romney if he took the blood oath, which was the norm when he started in that cult?
And there is James Dobson, all but saying outright that he’s behind Romney!
Now now IC and Melvin….you’re overlooking a VERY important camaign plank for Romney. If he is elected, he will have the guidance of the Archangel Moroni (that’s M-O-R-O-N little i).
God save us………..this is evidence that the Christian Right is far more political than spiritual, and now should be re-named the Cultic Wrong if Romney gets his be-diapered posterior into the chair in the Oval Office.
As for Pat Robertson……….he’s a certifiable nutjob. Claims to be able to push 2,000 lbs on a legpress machine because of his special Protein Shake (which he pushes on his show), redirects hurricanes away from HIS home (and onto the homes of others), and uses the planes for Operation Blessing to move his diamonds from his South African mines to his buyers here.
Is it a requirement to be a mental defective to own a “Christian” TV network (see Paul and Jan, Jimmy and Tammy, and Patty)??
Everything out there called “Christian” is so jacked up.
In politics you have “christians” endorsing a MORMON.
On TV everything supposedly spreading the gospel has doctrine about somebody they call “jesus” who guarantees them big money and gives the poor more money, healing, blessings and more when the poor give their last bit of money to millionaires. Millionaires who claim they are the mouthpieces of gawd.
Then I turn on the radio and it’s about the same, I might sometimes find some little known person on the radio who is actually ministering the true Gospel of Jesus Christ, but it’s not easy to find there.
Then I go to the store, looking at the “christian” books and I see the same nuts who are dominating my TV, radio and politics.
It’s a real mess and leading people to a sad place.
And by the way, when you hear Mitt Romney saying terms that you THINK are Christian in nature, think again.
Maybe I am wrong and I really can care less if you all agree or not. However, is there some biblical mandate that says that I can’t vote for a Mormon? I probably dont’ agree with 90% of most politicians theology anyhow? I know the stawman will be “well would you vote for a Muslim” my answer is I don’t know. I somehow have been led to believe that you all believe that the U.S is a Theocracy and I would firmly disagree (if this is the case). If Bush is the Christian option I would take Romney (although I was Pro-Bush in the previous election, his true colors has shown themselves strong) in a heartbeat. At least I know what I am getting. Do we so easily forget the Morning After Pill that Bush (a so called Pro-Lifer) got deregulated? I can go on for days with Bush. Bush and Dobson jumps to the head of the line (don’t forget Mrs. Dobson is the president if I am not mistaken) on the National Day of Prayer in which Christians, Muslims, Buddahist and every other religion you can think of are holding hands in peace praying to their God. So we jump on old Patty Boy? Get real. You are fully mislead in you don’t throw Bush and the rest of these “so called Christians” politicians in the same boat!
(MN: I’m going to open a free-for-all for this. It isn’t directly related to the pimps I write about, but (again, hear my Deanna Troi voice) I sense there is a desire to discuss the political side of Christianity. I kind of bumped up against it with the Patty Boy/Romney article, so…go ahead, spill your guts. Hey, I may even contribute since I am a wild eyed, venom spewing conservative myself.
Mr. Woods, don’t forget, my objection was for Patty Boy bringing in a Mormon to address the graduates of a supposedly Christ based university. It’s not the same as campaigning for or electing a president. Though I do admit to some difficulty voting for a known Mormon. I often have great difficulty .having any more respect for them (Mormons) than I do for a Scientologist. They just use “God” words and Scientologists are more brazen in their made up doctrine.
Have at it folks. Other than language, I will exercise little or no control on the comments. Just play nice is all I ask. )
I’m sure no one can address this as well as IC, however, I will try from a non-political mind. Would you vote for a homosexual that you know will fight to pass every law they have on their agendas? Would you vote for Aliester Crowley or Anton Lavey? I hope not. I say this to say this… All have sinned and fallen short, but this guy doesn’t have Jesus Christ in mind at all. Even though we know the world isn’t going to get better, I’d personally prefer to have someone who at least publicly proclaims the Name of Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior (and I’m not endorsing, here) like Dubya, than someone who we absolutely know is anti-Christ. Bush may not be on the up and up all the time, but how many politicians have you seen make such a proclamation? As for the candidates at hand, I don’t know who to vote for. But I’ll say this… to place someone as head over you that is clearly against the God you serve is ludicrous. Sometimes it is about voting for the lesser of two evils, but when someone is clearly not of the Christian faith, he will NOT get my vote. We are told to subdue the earth and take dominion until He comes. If we are haphazard about who we put in office, we relinquish the power He gave us to do that. Sure, weigh the options and vote your conscience, but at least have a conscience that is Christ-Centered. Even though Bush doesn’t come out squeaky clean, and though he may have done some less desirable things, think about the ungodly things he has protested, then think about where we’d be if we had voted in a New Ager like his first opponent, Al, not to mention his second, who was also a New Ager (that would be the Kerry guy).
I agree and disagree. The reasoning is this. James tells us to provide for the widow and orphaned, what does our Christian president go and do, ding, ding, ding. He cuts funding for Head Start, Medicaid and a slew of other inner city programs. So while he stands agains homosexual marriage and abortion (depending on your after moring perspective) he still isn’t doing much for the poor as a matter of fact he takes the money from the mouth of the poor in America and funds a bogus war (we have to now admit that Iraqi freedom is totally bogus). So while building pipelines and schools in Iraq we somehow ignore the more important issues. Lets not forget this great Christian President’s blatant ignoring of the Sudan issue. Not only is there a Genocide going on. It is a Genocide of Christians who he should protect more than anything. Is it because there is no value added to liberate the Sudanese? I think so. Bush can profess whatever he wants, but if this is about Pimps, Bush has “pimped” Christians like no President before him and maybe will ever be after him!
(MN: Let’s keep the site focussed with respect to who is pimpologically eligible for the site. To be eligible for the site, the person has to be a religious leader [pastor, bishop, etc] who uses the pulpit to abuse and con the people. We don’t do political pimps [whether Bush is one or not] on the site. )
Is the “us” that James speaks about the church or the government taking money from rich heathens? Does the ends justify the means and make it holy? Regardless of government actions it is the duty of the church. The failure of the church to do the job is why people run to government expecting something. The church should be taking care of its own and in ministry offering some help to others, but I never see in the Bible where they actually implemented a blanket policy of aid to all like Rick Warren attempts. The apostles looked out for Christians first. Typically they were too broke to help non-Christians and when they did have money they told the Christians to save their money for their children. Hey, that’s what I see when I read the Bible, but I request someone showing me different in actual application regarding actions.
And the old folks I speak to are pretty happy with Bush’s new drug program.
I seek to have the government maintain order, but if the government has to redistribute the treasure for the Lord, that really is a theocracy.
With Iraq, 5000 babies died every month under the failed oil-for-food program, which is more than the unfortunate deaths that occur now. Just the same I have issues with dealings with Muslim nations, because of their theocracies, but that’s not for this blog.
Sudan, no troops have been committed because it would tie up the forces far worse than Iraq, with far less support from any other nation. And true, the American people would see far less of a tangible benefit when compared to the potential benefits if everything went as planned with Iraq. With the Sudan, the main country that has applied any pressure at all is the USA and the main two people who applied the pressure are Colin Powell and Condi Rice, Bush picks. And seriously, the military is for the nation, and this nation does not wish to go to war with Sudan.
Mr. Woods, if you know you might be wrong, maybe a different view might be of value to you instead of something to “care less” about.
For those willing to consider another point of view I offer this response.
No. Christians in parts of Utah are often left with no choice. However, a better question is: Is there anywhere in the Bible that says I should NOT endorse a Mormon if I’ve got other options? I say there is.
Proverbs 3:6 notes that we should acknowledge the Lord in ALL OUR WAYS. When you view this from a Romney or the other perspective, you’ve eliminated the rest of the full slate of available candidates. Christians as you said, should not expect America to be a theocracy, but we should not attempt to endorse Christian views simply on the basis of whoever I think might have a chance to win either. With Romney you DON’T KNOW what you’re getting. Voting for Romney, you would be endorsing the Mormon’s efforts to increase their base. And Romney is such a joke that Ted Kennedy was able to smack him around.
I’ve got more posts on my blog about Romney and his lies than I wish to post here, but you’d find more if you search around for posts on Romney and Mormons there.
With Romney, you’re getting more than a politician, you’re getting a man who would sway law enforcement and perks to the advantage of a cult. Forget good enforcement against polygamy (Mormon polygamist Warren Jeffs was captured on Bush’s watch), especially the mess STILL going on with Mormons and their young brides, just like Joseph Smith Jr. did and some Mormons emulate his deeds. When the leader of the cult did it, all men in the cult dream of doing it, even if they say otherwise. Which is why Muslims try and marry 9 year old girls, like Muhammad did.
Also, the Mormons need someone that will send more perks to parts of upper New York and to Independence, Missouri, which are places of significance to Mormons.
With Romney, you’re getting a liar who would help spread a cult.
I say, vote for the best candidate and consider ALL CANDIDATES, don’t just vote based on who you think will win. And if none are good, nobody said you had to endorse any.
It’s very early, there will be other candidates running who don’t represent either of the large special interests camps.
So why post if you could careless, kind of defeats the purpose wouldn’t you say.You are right about one thing though I don’t agree with you. You don’t know if you would vote for a muslim or not……woooow. Are you a christian?
(MN: On the other hand, if Bill Clinton were running for president again, and Romney was running, and these are the only two choices, which would you vote for - the lying reprobate, or the Mormon. If Giulianni and Mrs. Clinton were running, who would you vote for - the multimarried, fornicating Catholic or the foul mouthed, lying woman? )
Melvin, in cases like that, I vote for the other posts in that election that have better candidates and write in “Jesus” for the one where nobody is worth voting for. If no write-in were allowed, I’d have to skip that section on the ballot.
All the people you named Mr. Clinton, Giulianni, Mrs. Clinton and Romney are all actually Liberals when you consider their actions. Even without considering their claimed faith they all are the same to me.
Now if I lived in Utah, with only Mormons on the entire ballot. I might try to consider who might be least abusive to Christians, but I don’t know if I’d wish to vote at all. Endorsing someone in a cult to be over me in a governmental sense is just not a good thought. But when you consider the religious leanings of some people respected as “great Americans”, what a mess!
The fact many have a “2 party” mindset is creating the perfect storm of sorts. We very well could have an election where neither major candidate looks good at all and to endorse either is simply wrong. The devious side of me would like to see Mrs. Clinton and Giulianni (or Romney) get their party’s nomination. Just so I could see how many Christians would then actually consider removing themselves from association with the 2 major parties. I’ve got a thing against parties in general, as the former Christian and slave holding President George Washington did
. (Hey he did let his go when he died. Weak, but better than others. Back then, that was a strong statement.)
Tell me Bob what does my political stance (if I am a neurtal, if I vote for Barrak, because he may just take care of the poor, or if I vote for Romney because he seems like the best candidate) have to do with my eternal state? Are you now judging my eternal state off of a political stance. I wouldn’t go there if I were you bro. By the way let me answer your question with this:
1. I believe that Jesus is God
2. I believe the Jesus was born of a virgin,
3. I believe that Jesus was perfectly sinless
4. I believe he atoned for my death on the cross.
5. I believe that he died and rose on the third day now sitting at the right hand of the Father interceding for the saints.
6. I believe that Jesus Christ will return one day, rewarding the saints and judging the non-believer
7. I believe that Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and man and no other name under heaven has been given in which man can be saved
8., I believe in the inerrancy of Scripture.
9. I believe that we are saved by grace through faith apart from works. There is nothing I can do to earn God’s favor it is a work done outside of me and my trust in the finish work of Jesus Christ the Son of God saves me!
I hope this answers your question. Anymore to
ask and I will gladly answer!
I would write in IC
Hey IC………can I carry the nuclear football for you??
Sure and don’t worry, your arm probably would not get tired from just holding it, because you’d have to open it a time or 2 with me running things
.
The days of “surgical” strikes would be over
.
Truman let 2 big ones go and folks knew the time for games was OVER
.
Because this great country of ours separates Church and state are we to also?
Should I vote for a leader that has proven them self to be a qualified but does not share my faith? And if we abstain and do not vote are we being irresponsible? Do Christians
Have a responsibility to be good citizens, does the bible address the subject of a democracy.
That or a democratic republic, which is what we have. Does it address it in any of the forms we consider in today’s society?
We all know taxes are addressed, for you who didn’t know, your “church” as a registered 501(c)3 is mandated by our government to tell you to pay your taxes and THAT is why you hear the scripture from Romans 13 repeated so much. Government requires your church do it at least on an annual basis.
I can’t say I’ve seen the issue of voting for earthly government under the NEW covenant addressed explicitly, but there is plenty about being a good citizen. The government may at times act on God’s behalf. As I’ve heard someone say, when you get to pick, it seems only logical that you would pick those you feel help to execute that. And there in lies the rub for us all, because then we all vary in how we feel “God’s servant” and “avenger” should act, versus what the actual church should be doing.
In Romans 13 I see Paul talking about government, while he knew Rome’s government did not include any members (save maybe a few secret converts) that he would see in Heaven, but collectively could defend him from other outside threats, hence the “sword” reference. And yes I know he didn’t want to feel the sword himself before his time to go. So the Lord had him write to respect government and Christ did himself when in flesh on earth.
Well what do you think msamu? This is a good line of discussion.
I do think we are coming closer to times where nothing available regarding candidates will be worth endorsing.
I think this is a great line IC, God selected King’s to guide his people, but today we vote for our leaders, and if we are to be good citizens do we have a reasonability to seek out leaders that are Godly? and if so why?
Well the whole “King’s to guide his people” angle is much different today, in a society mixed with the saved and unsaved.
We should seek godly leadership because we strive to be ourselves. With that, we have to balance what is to be expected of the unsaved in our mist along with what is going to maintain order in our society.
Basically how I see it, we can’t hold the unsaved to a truly “godly” standard, they don’t know God, but we can tell them what is right and in some cases if it is good for social order codify it.
It’s a tricky balancing act. We can’t make the unsaved “godly” and God wants us to allow them to seek him without force, but we can’t sit back and watch the ungodly go full bloom to the destruction of society either.
When states has more influence over their own affairs, local districts could better decide how to do things for their given area.
Now msamu, I know you have an opinion here. Let’s not just play “pick IC’s brain”
.
O.k. IC here’s my spin, as Christians we are without a doubt given a great reasonability, the bible tell us that we are identified as followers of the Christ by the love we share for one another, this love is also expressed to the world by the Christians desire to share the gospel, is the sharing of the gospel a moral responsibility? No, we are commanded to “GO” so we obey. As stated the bible does not deal with the Christians responsibility in regards to living in a free society, or a democracy, but it does deal with the moral responsibility of the Christian. In order to interject our responsible standard of living in a free society we must have input into that societies decision making, why would God allow a free society if he did not want us to have access to the process thus insuring the gospel will indeed be on display in the hall’s of government, one scripture that come to my mind is
Luke 11:33 No man, when he hath lighted a candle, putteth [it] in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a candlestick, that they which come in may see the light.
By neglecting our moral responsibility to vote thus giving the believer access the system; have we not dimmed the light of the gospel? Should not the morals of Christians also be considered when the courts make decisions? The left, the right, and the middle have access and as a result of that access we are made to at times to compromise “tone down” the gospel for the sake of special interest group’s. As Christians our special interest should be to reflex the character of Christ, we cannot be politely the Christian right or the Christian left, we must be morally true to the concepts of the bible, be it to our neighbor, our co-worker or the world. Do we truly understand that the world think’s of the U.S.A as a Christian nation, there’s more to being Christian then going to church and writing “in God we trust” on the back of the dollar bill”. Let the Christian stand and be counted, as Christians we have special interest that need to be addressed, let’s pray and ask God for Godly Men that not only will lead spiritually but reflex Christ morally to the world.
I agree, but you better be careful talking like that around here msamu
.
Personally, I know that I worship with plenty of folks that see some political issues differently from me. But we at least agree that we should be involved and there are some matters we agree 100% on. Although we have our disagreements, our involvement helps.
I don’t like TN’s governor, some folks I worship with probably love the man. But we all agreed that our state should not alter the definition of the term “marriage”. We disagree on some things, but our political involvement insures we will hold government to some level of a standard.
If Christians refused to vote, guess who would make all the decisions?
Being involved in the political process may not be a an essential for salvation but it is morally essential, as a people (Christian) we have a voice, a voice that should stand against immoral principals and stand for the moral principals the bible teaches, how can we stand before God and not stand for God before man? Morality means, (particular principles or a rule of conduct) is this not covered in the bible; are we not to stand for the principles that guide man’s conduct?
Christians must organize as one voice under the principals of the bible and pray asking God for leaders saved by grace that will stand on the moral principals of the bible and whose agenda is not self, but to reflect the nature of God, if one comes and speaks compromise he is not the one, continue to pray.
I believe one of the reasons why some Christians don’t vote is due to their dispensational mindset. If you believe that things are supposed to get worse and ANY MINUTE NOW, the Lord is going to snatch you out of here, you figure what difference does it make whether you vote or not. You won’t be here. NOT! Sorry, you’re still here. Stop following Hagee’s rapture chart and get out there and make a difference. VOTE.
(MN: Maybe. But I’m dispensational and I am still politically engaged. And still think all Christians should be engaged as well. )
Derrick, what is http://ithnkgod4ajco/? It shows up by your name, but is not an actual web site.
I’m dispensational too, but realize rapture won’t occur till post tribulation as Jesus said in Matthew 24:29-31. So you’re correct, Hagee is misleading a lot of people with his pre-tribulation rapture charts. He’s got people doing a lot of messed up stuff.
(Do you know I honestly must stop for about a minute even before I type about that man?… That’s how fired up I get when just thinking about him.)
(MN: Uh oh. I’m pre-trib! )
IC, I didn’t know that was showing up by my name. Disregard it. But I will be getting up a blog soon, I’ve got some stuff I need to put out there. I’ll let you know when I get it going.
Im not trib, pre-trib post-trib 3/4 mid, lol
WOW! Now were talking about Pre, mid, or Post. I used to be a pretrib but after reading from scripture I now lean towards a post trib.
Kyle
IC wrote………..
“I do think we are coming closer to times where nothing available regarding candidates will be worth endorsing.”
AMEN brother………..that time seems to be close at hand. Of course, what must be acknowledged is that this time is coming BECAUSE Christians abandon the political field to the heathen.
We have a group of folks who actively dissuade Christians from being involved in the political process even to the point of not voting, THEN these same folks claim they don’t vote because there aren’t any Godly candidates.
Luk 7:31 “To what then shall I compare the people of this generation, and what are they like?
Luk 7:32 “They are like children sitting in the marketplace and calling to one another,
‘We played the flute for you, and you did not dance;
we sang a dirge, and you did not weep.’
Luk 7:33 “For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon.’
Luk 7:34 “The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’
Luk 7:35 “Yet wisdom is justified by all her children.”
LOL. Good Point IC, & Gary, Good point. Although true, I had to laugh at this for some odd reason.
O.k. IC here’s my spin, as Christians we are without a doubt given a great reasonability, the bible tell us that we are identified as followers of the Christ by the love we share for one another, this love is also expressed to the world by the Christians desire to share the gospel, is the sharing of the gospel a moral responsibility? No, we are commanded to “GO” so we obey. As stated the bible does not deal with the Christians responsibility in regards to living in a free society, or a democracy, but it does deal with the moral responsibility of the Christian. In order to interject our responsible standard of living in a free society we must have input into that societies decision making, why would God allow a free society if he did not want us to have access to the process insuring the gospel will indeed be on display in the hall’s of government, one scripture that come to my mind is
Luke 11:33 No man, when he hath lighted a candle, putteth [it] in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a candlestick, that they which come in may see the light.
By neglecting our moral responsibility to vote thus giving the believer access the system; have we not dimmed the light of the gospel? Should not the morals of Christians also be considered when the courts make decisions? The left, the right, and the middle have access and as a result of that access we are made to at times to compromise “tone down” the gospel for the sake of special interest group’s. As Christians our special interest should be to reflex the character of Christ, we cannot be the Christian right or the Christian left, we must be morally true to the concepts of the bible, be it to our neighbor, our co-worker or the world. Do we truly understand that the world think’s of the U.S.A as a Christian nation, there’s more to being Christian then going to church and writing “in God we trust” on the back of the dollar bill”. Let the Christian stand and be counted, as Christians we have special interest that need to be addressed, let’s pray and ask God for Godly Men that not only will lead spiritually but reflex Christ morally to the world.
Has anybody seen Jakes teaching from his new book?
I thought we were suppose to teach from the word of God? What does his book have to say thats more important then the word of God? I know it may have scriptures in it and all, just wondering is all.
Melvin,
I think you ought to be a bit more thoughtful before you get sarcastic on Robertson for having a Mormon speak at a “Christian” school. There just might be a reasonable explanation, you know.
Like, perhaps, “the Dahli Lama was busy” or “David Koresh is dead” or “Pat the prevarticating prophet lost his free copy of the Book of Mormon and he needs a new one.”
In Christ,
Phil Perkins.
(MN: Phil, you had me going for a minute. )
I don’t listen to td jake i don’t like his voice, something about his voice i don’t like. by the way did any one see ms white paula white.org she is selling to the church people on how to feel good about them self and send her the money. and return you can look like her.
This a question for anyone who cares to address it, as it relates to politics, should our brother who is a pastor in India (who you can witness being attacked by a mob of Hindus on “the voices of the martyrs”) run for political office, look for the Christians that are running for office & endorse them hoping for change or pray for those in authority while being persecuted for his beliefs? Or should we even care about the pastor, he’s in India & we are (most of us) in America? In the U.S., we can pretty much do what we want but our brothers & sisters probably dont have the same options. What are we called to do, worry about political positions or proclaim the kingdom for Christ? Do you think those Christians in India, China, Turkey, etc are concerned with the political climate (as in electing a president)? I understand that they would benefit from a Christian in office but what is the call? They are suffering persecution just as the apostles did (where they looking to put a Christian in office or doing the work of Christ in spite of…?) I truly value all responses/advice.
The call is Jesus Christ and all that he represents. Nothing more. I agree with you 100%. The only government that will ever matter is the Eternal Kingdom that will replace all the nations governments. That is why Jesus didn’t try to overthrow Caesar or Pilate or Herod. And he told us his Kingdom is not of this world. But man has his own ways.
Those in cultures who do not have the option to affect politics have no responsibility to do so. We are in the unique position that we may affect the direction of our country towards righteousness. We will be held accountable if we neglect to do so, since we will in effect be aiding the enemies of God who seek to turn the country towards evil.
There may well be no perfect choice running for office………but we can at the least seek to preserve the freedom to preach the Gospel.
Why does it have to be EITHER/OR?? Why can;t we preach the Word AND do what we can to preserve the freedom to do so?? Isn’t it rather stupid to preach the Gospel, but not use the power God has blessed us with to PRESERVE the freedom to preach it?? Isn’t it a bit obtuse to preach the Gospel while allowing evil men to remove the freedom to preach the Gospel??
Do you think God will hold you blameless for the loss of the freedom to proclaim the Gospel when He has blessed us with the power to preserve that freedom?? Are we EVER commanded to let evil run unrestrained??
Well said GaryV and let’s pray for those who don’t understand yet.
But of course if things don’t go as they’d like on their job and they can influence the outcome, you’ll see them jumping up to invoke that desired change in a heartbeat. You won’t see any of the sitting back and claiming the Lord’s kingdom then
. Suddenly they will see that they should be doing something while here on earth to ensure Christian’s are not overcome by evil if they are in a position to help matters.
Let that job say they are having a vote on if Bibles will be allowed in the workplace and they’ll be the FIRST to cast a ballot!
Paul played more legal and even political maneuvers to try and save his head than I can even rattle off the top of my head
. He’d see who was going to kill him and suddenly he remembered he had citizenship somewhere else 
.
Just pray that all one day understand.
That does not mean we must endorse any particular candidate, but a Christian who enters the voting booth armed with the truth is going to make a better selection to rule them politically than the heathen who is concerned with other matters.
I don’t think any church should push any candidate at all. If the truth of God is preached, the members will understand how they should walk and have enough mental capacity to make an informed choice on their own. They might even go out and make blogs where they talk about politics and faith too
.
I understand IC. I’m an independent conservative as well. I actually voted for Bush both times. My first time voting was in the presidential election. I’m 32 and have been conservative all my life. Quite frankly I dont understand how a Christian can follow democratic values. However, I do think that we as Christians have a tendency to put our faith in the wrong things/people and get sidetracked from the true calling. I visited your site & I think what you do is good. I just sometimes have a hard time with the affiliation between the church, pastors & politicians.
I think everyone struggles with that paradigm Thinking………..and that’s just fine. It’s the FAILURE to struggle with it, and to simply ignore the privileges and responsibilities of citizenship God has blessed us with, that I see as the problem.
I understand what you’re saying GaryV and I’m not asking for an either/or. Do you think that the political atmosphere could have been effected in the days of Jesus? By the way, I think God will hold me accountable for not proclaiming the gospel, period, regardless of the political situation. Once you hear the truth, don’t you have to proclaim it anyway?
The political structure of the Jews under Rome is nothing like we have now, but they were allowed their own level of governance, that Jesus was very vocal towards. They were the hypocrites that were also called “priests”, given Jews had a theocratic style of government. Christians were not allowed into that Jewish structure of government given Jews were trying to kill Christians in many cases, but with Rome some centurions were converts and remained centurions. This is how Peter knew salvation was for more than just the Jews, as recorded in Acts 10. There is no record that Cornelius removed himself from Rome’s political structure and stopped being involved in political matters.
And if you know a law will pass that might inhibit your ability to proclaim the Gospel freely and you do nothing? This is what you face with politics although you’re not admitting it. It might be easier to ignore the political scene, but you refusing to do what would be best for other saints or even your children on every level including politics would be a big mistake. If you think doing what is right stops at the voting booth, you are sadly mistaken.
Some matters like politics are difficult to maneuver, but that does not mean we just forget about it and say God will handle it, when we’ve been given the ability to address it ourselves.
If you want to be “just like Jesus” it would require a lot more than you ignoring the voting booth. You’d have to give up your job, leave your family and full time minister the gospel while living basically homeless. If you’re not going to commit yourself to that, I suggest you think twice about political involvement.
And I am very certain, if Paul could have saved his head with a vote, he’d have been the first in line to vote.
I realize that to be “just like Jesus” I may have to one day leave my family, job and live basically homeless. I’m striving to live a life so worthy everyday (I continuously fall short). The more I learn to deny myself and die daily, the closer I’ll get to understanding what it means to truly trust in His righteousness.
You do realize that if you did indeed leave your family, that you would be in full violation of a host of commands for believers?
If you are a man, you would be in violation of 1 Timothy 5:8, if a woman, you would be in direct violation of all commands that require you remain subject to your husband.
Once upon a time a minister told me that the way Jesus mentioned leaving all is actually impossible for us and I didn’t know why, but now I do. Those who Jesus called to leave all for him, with the exception of one rich man did so. For us it would be impossible to do what we should as Christians regarding our family and actually leave our family. So basically, the Matthew 19:29 promise which some spin as the “100 fold blessing” is unattainable for most of us.
Maybe that’s why Paul said he desired for us to be single
. But the vast majority of us were made to be married 
.
As I’ve mentioned on my blog once, if I get into Heaven and get a shack, I’d be very happy. I don’t need a mansion, I’ll take whatever, a space in the Heavenly gutter would be fine. I’ll clean toilets in Heaven for an eternity, so long as I don’t have a throne in hell. Of course we all want the best, but I’m saying, I’m not going to be picky, I’ll be most happy to get in
.
I’m just trying to do what is best, but what is perfection for us with families is not what perfection is for someone who feels they were meant to stay single for the sake of the Gospel.
Thinking, I understand your positon as well…….but for me, I cannot deny that God placed me in a time and place where I can have an impact upon my rulers. If righteousness exalteth a nation, and I have been blessed with a government that I can influence for righteousness, I have a responsibility before God to do so.
Let’s not forget that the Bible says that God himself placed everyone specifically where we were born. The “powers that be” in those places are ordained of Him. It was HIS will that we are placed in a society where we can influence the government for righteousness. The responsibility that comes with that should not be shirked.
JMO.
So, in your humble opinion GaryV, maybe I SHOULD run for political office?
Not necessarily……….I simply don’t believe the Bible supports the stance that to do so (obtain political office or even vote) runs counter to God’s purposes, or that to refrain from political involvement is some sort of Badge of Righteousness.
Someone has to explain Daniel, Mordecai, Esther,and Joseph to me before I’ll accept that political involvement is contrary to God’s purposes .
They were ALL involved up to their eyeteeth in a PAGAN political system. Yet they were used to deliver God’s people, and managed to keep their Godly witness as well. They were PLACED there by God “for such a time”, and I have yet to hear even one credible, Biblical argument that supports the notion that God no longer places Christians in areas of political influence for “such a time” as this.
If they were able to be used of God in politics under the OLD Covenant, how is it that we are unable to do so under a BETTER Covenant ??
I’ve heard a bunch of pious objections, but there’s a sad lack of Scriptural support for that stance.