I finished the reinstall. Now I have to re-install all of my applications including Filezilla, Paintshop and a host of other stuff. It will happen as I need it.
Did I tell you I hate computers?
Posted by Melvin Jones
on Friday, May 4th, 2007 at 7:03 pm.
I enjoyed your essays on divorce and marriage, but you failed to included a most crucial
Point, which is Grace, you ended your essays with “Divorce short-circuits God’s work in our lives and insures that we will never depend on Christ’s work in our lives and thus never mature as a Christian” (MN:No, I’m not saying that a divorce will forever end God’s ability to work in our lives. I’m saying the attitude that makes for a divorce, that takes divorce as an option, will make us give up in our development as a forgiving, gracious Christian. I fail to show grace and forgiveness, and as such, I fail to grow in grace as a result of this situation. In divorce, I insist on my “rights”, rights I don’t have as a Christian. I’m not saying that divorce is in any way unforgivable. I show grace BECAUSE God shows grace to me, not SO He will show grace. )
Because the heart of man and the imagination of the thoughts of his heart are only evil continually (Gen6:6) God’s grace is found in the flaws of man, be it murder divorce homosexually or any flaw of man. Divorce like any sin committed after we have accepted Christ is a result of a lack of FAITH, now the bible tells us that it is impossible to please God without faith thus producing that short-circuiting in our lives; but to say that it “insures” that we will never depend on Christ’s work in our lives is a bit of a stretch.
God’s work in our life is indeed a work in progress, we will fall short from time to time because were men and our flesh is flawed, does not the grace of God and the blood cover a lack of faith? I know there’s no forgiveness for blaspheming of the Holy Spirit, have we also include divorce in the unforgivable? I don’t think so; I agree we are to forgive and the essence of divorce is because of un-forgiveness (MN: This is all I am saying. ), but once we come to our senses and realize our fault and confess our sin is he not righteous and just and will forgive us, why do we make one sin greater then another (MN: I’m not. You misread the phrase about never depending on God’s grace. I will try to be clearer in the future. In fact, I may edit the paper to get rid of the ambiguity. ), sin is missing the mark and in the believer it’s a lack of faith. But thank God for Jesus Christ, I believe one can recover even from a lack of Faith. Be Blessed
Sorry to butt in, here. Melvin. I’m going to read your article, but before I do, I hope it is okay for me to make this comment. A huge problem with divorce (in the Church) is a lack of teaching as to what is expected when we say I do before God and man.
We in the West have suffered in our ability to grasp covenant. My mother and I had this conversation and I told her that if people would take the time to realize that marriage is not to be taken lightly and that we should be dead sure that the person we are about to go into covenant with is God’s choice for us, the divorce rate would go down.
Most people go into marriage with the understanding in the backs of their minds that if things don’t work out, there’s always divorce. But what if the truth of it all was being taught in the church and the people realized that the back door of divorce was no longer available, thus forcing them to realize that there is a consequence to the decisions that we make that cannot be avoided? Then maybe people wouldn’t be so quick to say “I do” outside of the Lord’s making it clear that this is the one for them.
I’ve never been married and I have nothing against it. But because of some of the decisions that I made, I’ve been in process for more than 10 years. I have no desire to marry except it be God’s perfect will. But many have no idea that the Bible tells us that the only thing that frees us to divorce is adultery. We have Pastors marrying people whose relationships were developed because one of them cheated on their former spouse.
We have people in the Church divorcing because “they grew apart.” Not to go into detail, but it’s just like any other free pass to break the law. How many thieves would steal if they KNEW they would get their hands cut off? Yeah, some would still, but how drastically would that number fall? If people really understood covenant from God’s point of view and if they thought they would have to suffer the consequences of marrying the wrong somebody (verbal and physical abuse, decides he doesn’t want to work and take care of the house, starts drinking or doing drugs, etc.), I think people would be a little more prayerful regarding who they marry.
Most in the church don’t realize that when you marry someone who has been divorced outside of God’s provision for divorce (and even there, He prefers we forgive our spouses and stay in the marriage), you are then living in an adulterous relationship. Yes, God will forgive you for divorcing, however, one of the consequences is that you need to be prepared to never marry again (unless, I believe, you former spouse dies). It may sound harsh, but that’s what the Word says, unless I’ve missed something.
Matthew 5:31-32 31: It has also been said, whoever divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce. But I tell you, whoever dismisses and repudiates and divorces his wife, except on the grounds of unfaithfulness (sexual immorality), causes her to commit adultery, and whoever marries a woman who has been divorced commits adultery.
I wrote an article about Christian dating (”The Dating Game: What Does the Bible Say?). I will email it to you. Again, please forgive me for butting in.
(MN:Butting in!?!?!? That’s what we’re here for. )
Trajay said:
“Most in the church don’t realize that when you marry someone who has been divorced outside of God’s provision for divorce (and even there, He prefers we forgive our spouses and stay in the marriage), you are then living in an adulterous relationship.”
Question
If a christian has divorced his or her spourse for any reason other than for adultery and then remarries someone else without the understanding (or with) that the new marriage would constitute an adulterous relationship, should they immediately end the marriage or repent of the act and then continue in the marriage.
That is a really good question. Something to pray for clarity on. My thoughts are this: if God sees it as living in an adulterous relationship, I would assume it means He doesn’t recognize it as a marriage. Therefore if not recognized as a marriage, would it be considered a divorce in His eyes, or does He see it as part of the repentance process? Not sure what the correct answer is on that one.
My question precisely. If a man and a woman, (both Christians,sincere yet pimped and ignorant) get married when one or both have gotten divorced for grounds not covered in the Bible, what is the recourse??
Is it divorce?? Living without physical intimacy as roommates (which doesn’t solve the problem of a bad witness).
What if there are children?? Should they model a non-intimate marriage before their children?? Is that the “family” that God prefers??
There are a TON of variables to be considered. It’s not cut and dry. Christians do things when they are young in the Lord and under bad teaching all the time. To tear apart ANOTHER happy and Godly home doesn’t seem something God would endorse, does it?
I’ve run across this more than once………..and I have no answer except that God forgives ALL sin truly repented of.
(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by alberto
2007-05-16 04:38:39
GaryV, Trayjay, and J Paden,
The Bible answers this one very clearly. First in Romans 7:2-3, God reveals to us that if we divorce for any other reason other than fornication (not adultery, but fornication as shown in Deuteronomy 24, matthew 5 and matthew 19,) and marry another, we are adulterers. We remain adulterers until the first spouse dies, then we are no longer adulterers.
Now, in the case of David, David had 6 wives I beleive, including BathSheba. Now, does God tell you you have to divorce your current husband or wife after you realize you weren’t supposed to re-marry? Absolutely not. We saw with God that He blessed David and Bathsheba’s marriage with the birth of Solomon. Therefore, if a Christian has had an unbiblical divorce and has remarried without knowing the truth about divorce and remarriage, the Bible says the Lord is just and faithful to forgive us our sins if we confess them, and I am sure the Lord will have you honor your current marriage provided you stay married to that person until death do you part.
And to be clear, once there is forgiveness, no man or woman has the right to call the other and adulterer or adulteress after the fact.
Comment by trayjay
2007-05-16 07:29:57
I believe my answer was “Not sure what the correct answer is on that one.” I never accused anyone of being anything. I honestly stated that I did not know. I will say this, though, to repent means to change your mind and go another way. Does that mean another divorce, I will say again, I do not know. My (meaning my personal) greater concern is for those who are haphazardly saying “I do” without even having a clue as to all of the complications such a situation can bring up; such as the points GV and Alberto made. My heart is for those who have not been taught to come into the understanding that there is a consequence when you do marry which may land you in an abusive relationship, etc. I believe that Bathsheba was God’s choice for David. But His blessing them with Solomon does not necessarily mean that there were no consequences. Without going into detail, take a peak at Solomon’s weakness inherited from David, which ultimately led Israel into Babylonian captivity (because of idol worship that began with Solomon).
I don’t know, as I said before, how God would handle you already being in that situation out of a lack of knowledge of the truth. I believe in Grace. However, what of those who are about to inter into matrimony; do you think it is important for them to understand the possible consequences before making that covenant promise? Also, what about the woman who had an affair, took him from his wife, then married him? If they truly repent, that’s one thing. My concern is how the Church will approve of such a marriage with no talk of their repentance of the affair. Sorry to be so long winded, but this is one of those things that you have to really seek God about and I strongly feel we should be teaching in the Church so that people stop looking at marriage as something that has an easy back door out of. After realizing that if you divorce your wife for something as petty as she gained 100 pounds, would you be so quick to marry her knowing that if you divorced her for something outside of God’s provision that you would be expected (having been taught the truth) to remain single, at least until she dies? That’s my concern. I believe that if the true believer knows and understands that truth, there wouldn’t be so many situations where we have to wonder if God recognizes such marriages as marriages or as adulterous relationships. We also have to be careful that we are not using Grace as a pass to do what we want. So it’s also a matter of what one knows when they enter in. We know that many will come into this truth and say “Well, God will forgive me and I can just continue in the marriage” after re-marrying; forgetting that He’s a God of the heart. Let me shut up before I start rambling. I do appreciate you all’s input (GV and Alberto). It gives me more to ponder. Be blessed.
Comment by alberto
2007-05-16 08:31:00
Trajay,
I apologize if you thought I accused you of anything. I was just bringing up a followup point to what I showed the Bible to say regarding getting remarried and how it says remarrying after getting an unbiblical divorce would consistitute making you an adulterer. I was simply saying there is forgiveness and that we have no right to pounce on a brother after forgiveness has been recieved.
To answer your other point, yes, there were consequences to David and bathsheba’s marriage. HEAVY consequences. But they were not told to get divorce, either.
I know many people get remarried before knowledge of the truth. David and bathsheba had truth and rejected it, but were still expected to honor their marriage. The same goes for married couples today who were already married and divorced from a previous marriage. There are no heavy consequences for things you didn’t know were wrong, and there is not one ounce of Scripture that says you must divorce your second wife after you divorced your first one. All it says is in Romans 7 and Matthew 5 and 19 that you are guilty of adultery if you remarry after an unbiblical divorce, but again in the age of grace all sins are washed in the blood of Christ and the LORD will expect you to honor your current marriage.
Another example is jacob. Even though Jacob was wrong in having two wives, God did not make Jacob seek a divorce, either.
Trajay, you do bring up an excellent point about pastors today who do not teach this truth. It is this very reason, I believe, that not only is the divorce rate high, but the environment for sodomite marriages has been set.
Comment by J Paden
2007-05-16 10:25:36
Excellent discussion. I appreciate all of the input into this matter. I would agree that there is now no condemnation for those who walk according to the spirit and not after the flesh. So if a person truly repents and begins to walk after the spirit I would agree his or her slate has been washed clean.
Next Question:
After an unbiblical divorce the guilty party or parties repent and begin to walk according to the spirit (as it relates to biblical marriage, divorce, and remarriage) is that person obligated to only remarry the divorced spouse or are they able to begin a new marriage with someone else.
Comment by GaryV
2007-05-16 10:33:10
Nice response Alberto………….I agree entirely. The tenor of your remarks earlier made me wonder how you would approach the situations I described. I was afraid you were going to go elsewhere with your thoughts on the subject.
Color me relieved brother.
Comment by alberto
2007-05-17 05:02:12
(MN: See my note below.)
J Paden said:
“After an unbiblical divorce the guilty party or parties repent and begin to walk according to the spirit (as it relates to biblical marriage, divorce, and remarriage) is that person obligated to only remarry the divorced spouse or are they able to begin a new marriage with someone else”
In the same chapter that deals with divorce after fornication, Deuteronomy 24, we get this in verses 3-4:
“And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife; her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD.”
Basically, the Lord considers it abomination if the wife were to return to her former husband AFTER she has been defiled with her second husband. I point this out because this is the only circumstance in which reconciliation is forbidden between former husband and wife. All of 1 Corinthians 7 is about reconciliation. Even though 1 Corinthians 7 does not advocate divorce at all, if the husband divorces, and THEN gets saved, there is an obligation to seek reconciliation with the divorced wife, showing her the new fruit in his life and the rededication to being a great husband and father. If she doesn’t want a reconciliation, seeing as he is now divorced, I do not see where getting remarried is abominable, according to the Bible. He is, after all, now loosed from his wife despite it being unbiblical, but he didn’t know better. But now he does and he has a responsibility to live according to the ways of the Lord with whomever he marries next.
Now, correct me if I’m wrong, but does it not take two parties to sign divorce papers to make them final? (MN:Consider yourelf corrected. ) If the husband or the wife is saved and the other is not, does not the saved party have the right NOT to sign the divorce papers? Seeing as it would be unbiblical, does not the saved party have a greater resonsibility to keep the marriage intact, even though the other party wishes to seek divorcement, especially if the saved party is a man?
(MN:Having said all of this, having looked at the Old Testament, having explored the various word combinations - we still come back to a core question: Does the Christian have the RIGHT to divorce his wife or her husband even if the spouse has been unfaithful? Does the Christian have that RIGHT? And the answer is “No, he does not have the RIGHT to divorce his wife.” You guys have been wrangling over technical terms, the law, and some of everything else. But the one thing you have not considered is the grace God shows us when we sin against Him and how that grace should show itself in our lives when our spouse sins against us. Which is worse, my sin against a perfect, sinless God, or my wife’s sin against an equally sinful creature? If God doesn’t divorce me, what gives me the right to divorce my wife? )
Comment by trayjay
2007-05-17 06:45:26
Melvin, I completely agree. And as I stated before, if the Church would simply teach this truth, we wouldn’t have to wrangle over who can marry who after divorce. It leaves too many doors for people to seek other options, which are simply back doors to divorce. We completely miss God’s whole point of COVENANT. I know that there will always be people who will still choose to do what they want, but I’m crazy enough to be determined to tell as many people the truth as possible and if after telling 1 million only one gets it, so be it. I am absolutely disgusted at the divorce rate in the Church.
Comment by alberto
2007-05-17 06:54:18
Melvin, I don’t disagree with you one bit. I have stated there is absolutely no justification in the Bible about divorcing over adultery, and in another thread I even stated that we cheat on God when we watch a football game on Sunday instead of being in church, or we read countless “theological” books and devotional books instead of meditating on the books of Obadiah, Habbakuk, and Amos, yet God is merciful to forgive us our trespasses. As it shows in Matthew 5:27-30, Christ called looking at a woman in lust adultery, meaning it is the same as physically cheating on your spouse, so adultery is NOT grounds for divorce. If my wife cheats on me, I have NO right to divorce her. Instead, I fight for the marriage, and force the wolf she cheated on me with to depart or else, and continually strengthen my marriage as the head of the house. It will hurt, of course, but my obligation is to see the marriage to the end as God ordained it. There is NO exercise of Christian fruit if I divorced her because she cheated on me, nor is there fruit if I do not forgive her for doing so. God forgave me, so I have no right to bear grudges to another man or woman, and if my wife cheats on me, who am I not to forgive and forget, and fight for my marriage? God’s grace abounds.
Having said that, there was a genuine concern by some brethren here about men or women who divorce and remarry BEFORE finding the truth in scripture, and God is j ust to forgive the sin after knowledge of it is found out by the perpretator. As Christians, however, those who are married can NEVER seek divorce, regardless of the circumstances. The oath man and woman take before God is “for better or for worse.” For worse means just that- for worse…til death do you part. the only condition for separation? Death, as per Romans 7. The most neglected words in the marriage oath are “for worse,” and til death do you part.” God’s grace is exactly what is missing in many marriages in the body of Christ, the grace to transcend the world’s view of dealing with marital infidelity and doing it God’s way, maintaining unity instead of going separate ways and writing a tell-all book for display on Oprah (with her ever–loving New Age self.)
Comment by GaryV
2007-05-17 08:14:48
Melvin wrote……..
“But the one thing you have not considered is the grace God shows us when we sin against Him and how that grace should show itself in our lives when our spouse sins against us. Which is worse, my sin against a perfect, sinless God, or my wife’s sin against an equally sinful creature? If God doesn’t divorce me, what gives me the right to divorce my wife?”
I cannot imagine that truth being put more beautifully and graciously. Thank you brother……….that really ministered to me!!
Comment by Mack
2007-05-17 08:49:56
I feel like people put too much time into things that do not matter to the Lord as much as salvation that is his will for us. Now Eph. 5: 22-32 says the following: Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that he might present it to himself a glorious chruch, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loves his wife loves himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourishes and cherishes it, even as the Lord the church: for we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a GREAT mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. See all of these references in the bible about marriage is a mystery. Such as in Proverbs 31:10 it talks about: Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies. And in Prov. 5:18 says Let your fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of your youth. and in another place Prov. 3:13-15 says: Happy is the man that finds wisdom, and the man that gets understanding.
For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold. She is more precious than RUBIES: and all the things you can desire are not to be compared unto her.
All of these are referring to wisdom as the wife and in other places Christ and the church. The gospel is a mystery you guys. Try reading whole letters and stay away from these other books out there. Just read the word of God and he will teach you the manifold wisdom of God.
Comment by Anonymous
2007-05-17 09:44:42
Wow. Right on time. That is a great summation of (not only divorce and marriage) but mercy…..God’s mercy is truly amazing.
Thanks, I needed that.
Comment by Gridiron
2007-05-17 09:49:27
That “Anonymous” comment (Thanks - I needed that) was myself. I wanted to comment Alberto and Trayjay for your contributions as well. This thread (divorce and marriage) has really helped a brother out with regard to mercy. God’s mercy.
Much thanks again.
Comment by mrs. maverick
2007-05-17 10:17:59
btw mel, this was a good reminder to me as well, but i gotta tell ya- it sure is alot easier to forgive your mate or overlook their faults when you’re still in love with them (and i’m not talking ’bout that cloud 9 stuff). wouldn’t you agree? no wonder Jesus said it was because of the hardness of our hearts……
Yea Melvin, if you would “sow” into them you would be richly rewarded . All your computer problems would vanish and all that you’ve ever lost would come back to you .
You’d even get back any data you’ve lost from any prior computer problems .
Yes Melvin I.C. is correct. If you send me a love gift of 100 dollars right now I will personally intercede in divine communication with God to provide you with a brand new computer fully loaded with windows Vista. However, if you act now within the next 15 minutes you will also receive a 20inch monitor for an additional 50 dollar love gift. Melvin please remember that you can’t out give God.
What’s that I hear? I feel the Foly Bhost talking and it says that there is a DOUBLE PORTION coming your way if you give to Kyle right now! That’s right, you’ll be blessed with 2 computers fully loaded!
Uh…yeah.
don’t we all, mr jones…don’t we all
Today I’m having trouble hyperlinking on my server! UGH!
Melvin:
I enjoyed your essays on divorce and marriage, but you failed to included a most crucial
Point, which is Grace, you ended your essays with “Divorce short-circuits God’s work in our lives and insures that we will never depend on Christ’s work in our lives and thus never mature as a Christian” (MN: No, I’m not saying that a divorce will forever end God’s ability to work in our lives. I’m saying the attitude that makes for a divorce, that takes divorce as an option, will make us give up in our development as a forgiving, gracious Christian. I fail to show grace and forgiveness, and as such, I fail to grow in grace as a result of this situation. In divorce, I insist on my “rights”, rights I don’t have as a Christian. I’m not saying that divorce is in any way unforgivable. I show grace BECAUSE God shows grace to me, not SO He will show grace. )
Because the heart of man and the imagination of the thoughts of his heart are only evil continually (Gen6:6) God’s grace is found in the flaws of man, be it murder divorce homosexually or any flaw of man. Divorce like any sin committed after we have accepted Christ is a result of a lack of FAITH, now the bible tells us that it is impossible to please God without faith thus producing that short-circuiting in our lives; but to say that it “insures” that we will never depend on Christ’s work in our lives is a bit of a stretch.
God’s work in our life is indeed a work in progress, we will fall short from time to time because were men and our flesh is flawed, does not the grace of God and the blood cover a lack of faith? I know there’s no forgiveness for blaspheming of the Holy Spirit, have we also include divorce in the unforgivable? I don’t think so; I agree we are to forgive and the essence of divorce is because of un-forgiveness (MN: This is all I am saying. ), but once we come to our senses and realize our fault and confess our sin is he not righteous and just and will forgive us, why do we make one sin greater then another (MN: I’m not. You misread the phrase about never depending on God’s grace. I will try to be clearer in the future. In fact, I may edit the paper to get rid of the ambiguity. ), sin is missing the mark and in the believer it’s a lack of faith. But thank God for Jesus Christ, I believe one can recover even from a lack of Faith. Be Blessed
Sorry to butt in, here. Melvin. I’m going to read your article, but before I do, I hope it is okay for me to make this comment. A huge problem with divorce (in the Church) is a lack of teaching as to what is expected when we say I do before God and man.
We in the West have suffered in our ability to grasp covenant. My mother and I had this conversation and I told her that if people would take the time to realize that marriage is not to be taken lightly and that we should be dead sure that the person we are about to go into covenant with is God’s choice for us, the divorce rate would go down.
Most people go into marriage with the understanding in the backs of their minds that if things don’t work out, there’s always divorce. But what if the truth of it all was being taught in the church and the people realized that the back door of divorce was no longer available, thus forcing them to realize that there is a consequence to the decisions that we make that cannot be avoided? Then maybe people wouldn’t be so quick to say “I do” outside of the Lord’s making it clear that this is the one for them.
I’ve never been married and I have nothing against it. But because of some of the decisions that I made, I’ve been in process for more than 10 years. I have no desire to marry except it be God’s perfect will. But many have no idea that the Bible tells us that the only thing that frees us to divorce is adultery. We have Pastors marrying people whose relationships were developed because one of them cheated on their former spouse.
We have people in the Church divorcing because “they grew apart.” Not to go into detail, but it’s just like any other free pass to break the law. How many thieves would steal if they KNEW they would get their hands cut off? Yeah, some would still, but how drastically would that number fall? If people really understood covenant from God’s point of view and if they thought they would have to suffer the consequences of marrying the wrong somebody (verbal and physical abuse, decides he doesn’t want to work and take care of the house, starts drinking or doing drugs, etc.), I think people would be a little more prayerful regarding who they marry.
Most in the church don’t realize that when you marry someone who has been divorced outside of God’s provision for divorce (and even there, He prefers we forgive our spouses and stay in the marriage), you are then living in an adulterous relationship. Yes, God will forgive you for divorcing, however, one of the consequences is that you need to be prepared to never marry again (unless, I believe, you former spouse dies). It may sound harsh, but that’s what the Word says, unless I’ve missed something.
Matthew 5:31-32 31: It has also been said, whoever divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce. But I tell you, whoever dismisses and repudiates and divorces his wife, except on the grounds of unfaithfulness (sexual immorality), causes her to commit adultery, and whoever marries a woman who has been divorced commits adultery.
I wrote an article about Christian dating (”The Dating Game: What Does the Bible Say?). I will email it to you. Again, please forgive me for butting in.
(MN: Butting in!?!?!? That’s what we’re here for. )
Trajay said:
“Most in the church don’t realize that when you marry someone who has been divorced outside of God’s provision for divorce (and even there, He prefers we forgive our spouses and stay in the marriage), you are then living in an adulterous relationship.”
Question
If a christian has divorced his or her spourse for any reason other than for adultery and then remarries someone else without the understanding (or with) that the new marriage would constitute an adulterous relationship, should they immediately end the marriage or repent of the act and then continue in the marriage.
That is a really good question. Something to pray for clarity on. My thoughts are this: if God sees it as living in an adulterous relationship, I would assume it means He doesn’t recognize it as a marriage. Therefore if not recognized as a marriage, would it be considered a divorce in His eyes, or does He see it as part of the repentance process? Not sure what the correct answer is on that one.
My question precisely. If a man and a woman, (both Christians,sincere yet pimped and ignorant) get married when one or both have gotten divorced for grounds not covered in the Bible, what is the recourse??
Is it divorce?? Living without physical intimacy as roommates (which doesn’t solve the problem of a bad witness).
What if there are children?? Should they model a non-intimate marriage before their children?? Is that the “family” that God prefers??
There are a TON of variables to be considered. It’s not cut and dry. Christians do things when they are young in the Lord and under bad teaching all the time. To tear apart ANOTHER happy and Godly home doesn’t seem something God would endorse, does it?
I’ve run across this more than once………..and I have no answer except that God forgives ALL sin truly repented of.
GaryV, Trayjay, and J Paden,
The Bible answers this one very clearly. First in Romans 7:2-3, God reveals to us that if we divorce for any other reason other than fornication (not adultery, but fornication as shown in Deuteronomy 24, matthew 5 and matthew 19,) and marry another, we are adulterers. We remain adulterers until the first spouse dies, then we are no longer adulterers.
Now, in the case of David, David had 6 wives I beleive, including BathSheba. Now, does God tell you you have to divorce your current husband or wife after you realize you weren’t supposed to re-marry? Absolutely not. We saw with God that He blessed David and Bathsheba’s marriage with the birth of Solomon. Therefore, if a Christian has had an unbiblical divorce and has remarried without knowing the truth about divorce and remarriage, the Bible says the Lord is just and faithful to forgive us our sins if we confess them, and I am sure the Lord will have you honor your current marriage provided you stay married to that person until death do you part.
And to be clear, once there is forgiveness, no man or woman has the right to call the other and adulterer or adulteress after the fact.
I believe my answer was “Not sure what the correct answer is on that one.” I never accused anyone of being anything. I honestly stated that I did not know. I will say this, though, to repent means to change your mind and go another way. Does that mean another divorce, I will say again, I do not know. My (meaning my personal) greater concern is for those who are haphazardly saying “I do” without even having a clue as to all of the complications such a situation can bring up; such as the points GV and Alberto made. My heart is for those who have not been taught to come into the understanding that there is a consequence when you do marry which may land you in an abusive relationship, etc. I believe that Bathsheba was God’s choice for David. But His blessing them with Solomon does not necessarily mean that there were no consequences. Without going into detail, take a peak at Solomon’s weakness inherited from David, which ultimately led Israel into Babylonian captivity (because of idol worship that began with Solomon).
I don’t know, as I said before, how God would handle you already being in that situation out of a lack of knowledge of the truth. I believe in Grace. However, what of those who are about to inter into matrimony; do you think it is important for them to understand the possible consequences before making that covenant promise? Also, what about the woman who had an affair, took him from his wife, then married him? If they truly repent, that’s one thing. My concern is how the Church will approve of such a marriage with no talk of their repentance of the affair. Sorry to be so long winded, but this is one of those things that you have to really seek God about and I strongly feel we should be teaching in the Church so that people stop looking at marriage as something that has an easy back door out of. After realizing that if you divorce your wife for something as petty as she gained 100 pounds, would you be so quick to marry her knowing that if you divorced her for something outside of God’s provision that you would be expected (having been taught the truth) to remain single, at least until she dies? That’s my concern. I believe that if the true believer knows and understands that truth, there wouldn’t be so many situations where we have to wonder if God recognizes such marriages as marriages or as adulterous relationships. We also have to be careful that we are not using Grace as a pass to do what we want. So it’s also a matter of what one knows when they enter in. We know that many will come into this truth and say “Well, God will forgive me and I can just continue in the marriage” after re-marrying; forgetting that He’s a God of the heart. Let me shut up before I start rambling. I do appreciate you all’s input (GV and Alberto). It gives me more to ponder. Be blessed.
Trajay,
I apologize if you thought I accused you of anything. I was just bringing up a followup point to what I showed the Bible to say regarding getting remarried and how it says remarrying after getting an unbiblical divorce would consistitute making you an adulterer. I was simply saying there is forgiveness and that we have no right to pounce on a brother after forgiveness has been recieved.
To answer your other point, yes, there were consequences to David and bathsheba’s marriage. HEAVY consequences. But they were not told to get divorce, either.
I know many people get remarried before knowledge of the truth. David and bathsheba had truth and rejected it, but were still expected to honor their marriage. The same goes for married couples today who were already married and divorced from a previous marriage. There are no heavy consequences for things you didn’t know were wrong, and there is not one ounce of Scripture that says you must divorce your second wife after you divorced your first one. All it says is in Romans 7 and Matthew 5 and 19 that you are guilty of adultery if you remarry after an unbiblical divorce, but again in the age of grace all sins are washed in the blood of Christ and the LORD will expect you to honor your current marriage.
Another example is jacob. Even though Jacob was wrong in having two wives, God did not make Jacob seek a divorce, either.
Trajay, you do bring up an excellent point about pastors today who do not teach this truth. It is this very reason, I believe, that not only is the divorce rate high, but the environment for sodomite marriages has been set.
Excellent discussion. I appreciate all of the input into this matter. I would agree that there is now no condemnation for those who walk according to the spirit and not after the flesh. So if a person truly repents and begins to walk after the spirit I would agree his or her slate has been washed clean.
Next Question:
After an unbiblical divorce the guilty party or parties repent and begin to walk according to the spirit (as it relates to biblical marriage, divorce, and remarriage) is that person obligated to only remarry the divorced spouse or are they able to begin a new marriage with someone else.
Nice response Alberto………….I agree entirely. The tenor of your remarks earlier made me wonder how you would approach the situations I described. I was afraid you were going to go elsewhere with your thoughts on the subject.
Color me relieved brother.
(MN: See my note below. )
J Paden said:
“After an unbiblical divorce the guilty party or parties repent and begin to walk according to the spirit (as it relates to biblical marriage, divorce, and remarriage) is that person obligated to only remarry the divorced spouse or are they able to begin a new marriage with someone else”
In the same chapter that deals with divorce after fornication, Deuteronomy 24, we get this in verses 3-4:
“And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife; her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD.”
Basically, the Lord considers it abomination if the wife were to return to her former husband AFTER she has been defiled with her second husband. I point this out because this is the only circumstance in which reconciliation is forbidden between former husband and wife. All of 1 Corinthians 7 is about reconciliation. Even though 1 Corinthians 7 does not advocate divorce at all, if the husband divorces, and THEN gets saved, there is an obligation to seek reconciliation with the divorced wife, showing her the new fruit in his life and the rededication to being a great husband and father. If she doesn’t want a reconciliation, seeing as he is now divorced, I do not see where getting remarried is abominable, according to the Bible. He is, after all, now loosed from his wife despite it being unbiblical, but he didn’t know better. But now he does and he has a responsibility to live according to the ways of the Lord with whomever he marries next.
Now, correct me if I’m wrong, but does it not take two parties to sign divorce papers to make them final? (MN: Consider yourelf corrected. ) If the husband or the wife is saved and the other is not, does not the saved party have the right NOT to sign the divorce papers? Seeing as it would be unbiblical, does not the saved party have a greater resonsibility to keep the marriage intact, even though the other party wishes to seek divorcement, especially if the saved party is a man?
(MN: Having said all of this, having looked at the Old Testament, having explored the various word combinations - we still come back to a core question: Does the Christian have the RIGHT to divorce his wife or her husband even if the spouse has been unfaithful? Does the Christian have that RIGHT? And the answer is “No, he does not have the RIGHT to divorce his wife.” You guys have been wrangling over technical terms, the law, and some of everything else. But the one thing you have not considered is the grace God shows us when we sin against Him and how that grace should show itself in our lives when our spouse sins against us. Which is worse, my sin against a perfect, sinless God, or my wife’s sin against an equally sinful creature? If God doesn’t divorce me, what gives me the right to divorce my wife? )
Melvin, I completely agree. And as I stated before, if the Church would simply teach this truth, we wouldn’t have to wrangle over who can marry who after divorce. It leaves too many doors for people to seek other options, which are simply back doors to divorce. We completely miss God’s whole point of COVENANT. I know that there will always be people who will still choose to do what they want, but I’m crazy enough to be determined to tell as many people the truth as possible and if after telling 1 million only one gets it, so be it. I am absolutely disgusted at the divorce rate in the Church.
Melvin, I don’t disagree with you one bit. I have stated there is absolutely no justification in the Bible about divorcing over adultery, and in another thread I even stated that we cheat on God when we watch a football game on Sunday instead of being in church, or we read countless “theological” books and devotional books instead of meditating on the books of Obadiah, Habbakuk, and Amos, yet God is merciful to forgive us our trespasses. As it shows in Matthew 5:27-30, Christ called looking at a woman in lust adultery, meaning it is the same as physically cheating on your spouse, so adultery is NOT grounds for divorce. If my wife cheats on me, I have NO right to divorce her. Instead, I fight for the marriage, and force the wolf she cheated on me with to depart or else, and continually strengthen my marriage as the head of the house. It will hurt, of course, but my obligation is to see the marriage to the end as God ordained it. There is NO exercise of Christian fruit if I divorced her because she cheated on me, nor is there fruit if I do not forgive her for doing so. God forgave me, so I have no right to bear grudges to another man or woman, and if my wife cheats on me, who am I not to forgive and forget, and fight for my marriage? God’s grace abounds.
Having said that, there was a genuine concern by some brethren here about men or women who divorce and remarry BEFORE finding the truth in scripture, and God is j ust to forgive the sin after knowledge of it is found out by the perpretator. As Christians, however, those who are married can NEVER seek divorce, regardless of the circumstances. The oath man and woman take before God is “for better or for worse.” For worse means just that- for worse…til death do you part. the only condition for separation? Death, as per Romans 7. The most neglected words in the marriage oath are “for worse,” and til death do you part.” God’s grace is exactly what is missing in many marriages in the body of Christ, the grace to transcend the world’s view of dealing with marital infidelity and doing it God’s way, maintaining unity instead of going separate ways and writing a tell-all book for display on Oprah (with her ever–loving New Age self.)
Melvin wrote……..
“But the one thing you have not considered is the grace God shows us when we sin against Him and how that grace should show itself in our lives when our spouse sins against us. Which is worse, my sin against a perfect, sinless God, or my wife’s sin against an equally sinful creature? If God doesn’t divorce me, what gives me the right to divorce my wife?”
I cannot imagine that truth being put more beautifully and graciously. Thank you brother……….that really ministered to me!!
I feel like people put too much time into things that do not matter to the Lord as much as salvation that is his will for us. Now Eph. 5: 22-32 says the following: Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that he might present it to himself a glorious chruch, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loves his wife loves himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourishes and cherishes it, even as the Lord the church: for we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a GREAT mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. See all of these references in the bible about marriage is a mystery. Such as in Proverbs 31:10 it talks about: Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies. And in Prov. 5:18 says Let your fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of your youth. and in another place Prov. 3:13-15 says: Happy is the man that finds wisdom, and the man that gets understanding.
For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold. She is more precious than RUBIES: and all the things you can desire are not to be compared unto her.
All of these are referring to wisdom as the wife and in other places Christ and the church. The gospel is a mystery you guys. Try reading whole letters and stay away from these other books out there. Just read the word of God and he will teach you the manifold wisdom of God.
Wow. Right on time. That is a great summation of (not only divorce and marriage) but mercy…..God’s mercy is truly amazing.
Thanks, I needed that.
That “Anonymous” comment (Thanks - I needed that) was myself. I wanted to comment Alberto and Trayjay for your contributions as well. This thread (divorce and marriage) has really helped a brother out with regard to mercy. God’s mercy.
Much thanks again.
btw mel, this was a good reminder to me as well, but i gotta tell ya- it sure is alot easier to forgive your mate or overlook their faults when you’re still in love with them (and i’m not talking ’bout that cloud 9 stuff). wouldn’t you agree? no wonder Jesus said it was because of the hardness of our hearts……
Melvin,
Maybe if you sent in a love gift to TBN then maybe God would bless you with a brand new computer. Just ask Paul Crouch. He says it works every time.
Kyle
Yea Melvin, if you would “sow” into them you would be richly rewarded
. All your computer problems would vanish and all that you’ve ever lost would come back to you 
.
You’d even get back any data you’ve lost from any prior computer problems
.
Yes Melvin I.C. is correct. If you send me a love gift of 100 dollars right now I will personally intercede in divine communication with God to provide you with a brand new computer fully loaded with windows Vista. However, if you act now within the next 15 minutes you will also receive a 20inch monitor for an additional 50 dollar love gift. Melvin please remember that you can’t out give God.
Kyle
What’s that I hear? I feel the Foly Bhost talking and it says that there is a DOUBLE PORTION coming your way if you give to Kyle right now! That’s right, you’ll be blessed with 2 computers fully loaded!