You people are such a bunch of kill-joys! When I wrote the initial post on the preach-off poll, I was looking forward to writing a bang-up sermon, presenting it and letting you see just how good a preacher I am. And at first the polls supported me. Then as more of you began to vote, the trend completely reversed and you were saying “no,” don’t do the preach-off. Worst than that, most of your reasons for not doing the preach-off were irritatingly insightful. This completely ruined my opportunity to wallow around in the flesh and make me look good.
The upside though, is the fact that the whole adventure got shut down well before I bought my purple suit with the black stripes and light purple lapels, to go along with the purple shirt with a black collar (edged in gold). The whole outfit, including the white shoes was going to set me back about $950. So I guess I saved a couple of bucks in the whole thing anyway.
But more than that, I believe we stumbled onto something of an illustration for an argument against tithing. Yes, that’s right - against tithing.
Let’s suppose that instead of preaching a sermon, I, as the pastor of a church, went to the congregation and told them that I wanted to do a certain thing, say , build a day care facility (The Melvinite Center of Magnificent Childhood Development and Equipping to Take Over the World). I further explained that we needed some money to do that, so I am going to use the church funds (which are quite plentiful since almost all of the congregants have been convinced through dubious exegesis that they must tithe or suffer the curses of God on them and their children) and borrow some more money from the bank. Most of the congregants don’t agree with the idea but hey, I’m the pastor and it’s not their concern what I do with the money since it is God’s tithe and not theirs. Because I am in no way held accountable, I go running down a road that neither God nor the congregants are particularly eager to have me go.
This time I’m the pastor and people give only as God moves on their hearts to give. And I expect them to give only as God would have them give. I never quote Malachi, chapter 3, I never tell them they are robbing God, and I never promise them supernatural blessings if they give sacrificially.
Instead, I explain to them what I believe God would have us do. If they agree with it, they can give. If they disagree with it, they can refuse to give.
Now their giving is very similar to the poll we just completed. But in this case a “yes” translates to contributions and a “no” is the same as keeping your purse shut.
Guess what? If God moves on their hearts to not give (Ezra 1:1, 5) and they are obedient to God (as I, as a good pastor have consistently encouraged them to be), then the church doesn’t go hiking down that day care road. Instead, we are kept on track. Either way, I’m going to be really careful about what I take to the congregation, ’cause these jokers just might turn me down! Instead, I will actually pray to God about things, sincerely, and make sure I’m reading Him right. After all, if He wants it, he can and will move on the hearts of the families with no problem.
True, we might never move out of the dance room at the YWCA. And we may never get to be any larger than twenty families. And we may never have anything that resembles a big bookstore selling my books alongside T. Dexter’s books. And worse than that, I may never be able to quit my job and “do ministry” full time (Sigh. And no SR22 either. Not even a Liberty XL2 which is one fourth the cost of the SR22). But I digress.
When we walk by faith and give in faith, we are dependent on and obedient to the Spirit of God. When we tithe, we are dependent on our check book balancing and budgeting skills. When we give in faith, the elders are dependent on God. When we tithe, the elders are dependent on a bank to secure a loan for the rest of the money.
Tithing makes giving nothing more than paying a bill (phone bill - $78, electric bill - $159, car payment - $234, tithes and offerings - $120). Giving as God would lead becomes an exercise, a daily exercise, in walking in faith. Which one do you think generates more growth in the individual? Which approach honestly allows you to give cheerfully?
Melvin Go ahead, that way the guy at least gets a view of what expository preaching is all about, so he can stop with the topical sermons.
binks
And of course when you give in faith, you might give to someone or something other than your home church that particular week/month as the Lord leads.
IC what are you talking about!?? Doesn’t the scriptures say don’t muzzle an ox?! You HAVE TO sow into the place of your blessing. Oh yeah, and what ever you do, ‘DON’T PLAY WITH GOD’S MONEY’. I don’t care if you children are hungry and your lights are about to get turned off, you’d better give the Lord his money or else you will be cursed with a curse.
Somehow i have a feeling that he had his sermon prepared at the time that he challenged you initially. It may have touched on topics such as:
-Touch not mine anointed (do my prophets no harm)
-Jesus said don’t judge.
-Don’t hate or be jealous of the “mand of gawt (actually sounds like JHB)
-Name and Claim your blessings now.
-You can’t touch my glory.
-Stop counting another man’s money.
Melvin you are funny enough for TV. I don’t agree with your methods sometime, nevertheless I must admit that you are passionate about what you do. I don’t preach like truth of God stated. I don’t mind this assault because if I am not mistaken you acknowledged a call to the gospel ministry at one time or another. I do believe in tithing and if one wants to state that this practice was just for the Old Testament Dispensation, then if we would use the New Testament model of giving where they laid all their possessions at the apostle’s feet. So I will boldly declare that somewhere between 10% and everything would be an appropriate giving mode for true Christians. I still wholeheartedly believe that it’s better to have a blessed ninety cents than a cursed dollar! If one is so passionate about God, one’s checkbook should reflect giving into kingdom work. If one thinks that one is a pulpit pimp then don’t give into that individual’s ministry. This doesn’t relieve one’s responsibility of giving into kingdom work! I would submit that many people’s treasures is the money in their pocket and not the God that they say they love so much! A religion that costs one nothing will lead to what theologian Dietrich Bonhoeffer called cheap grace. I am not stating that one has to pay for the gospel, but I am stating that those who claim to champion the cause of Christ will also be those who do their best to support some form of kingdom work!
Respectfully Submitted,
Stephen F. Smith
(MN: Stephen, I enjoyed you comment (and not just because you like my humor). If you get the time, give a read on the essay I wrote on tithing and let me know what you think. As I advise everyone, be specific. Tell me where I got it wrong. I hope the paper will encourage you to re-evaluate some of the assumptions you have. )
Pastor Stephen, could you please explain two things for me, if you have time:
1. Where in the New Testament (new covenant) are we commanded or obligated to tithe as a form of GIVING.
2. Do you believe that certain aspects of the Mosaic Law (law of Moses) were done away with when Christ died on the cross? Or are we still obligated to observe certain laws? -if so please outline which laws were abolished and which ones were not.
you response would be much appreciated, thank you
Well he’s been asked to read that essay several times with no response, so excuse me, I’m going to assume he’ll never read it until he says otherwise.
Mr. Smith, you mentioned a case where people laid all of their possession at the apostle’s feet. I am glad you are referencing scripture. This was explained in Act 4. Now why did they do that? What did the apostles do with the possessions?
They did that because they were in the mist of being persecuted and wanted everyone to SURVIVE. They distributed the possessions for everyone to use, so that they would have equality among the group. What I call a Private Christian Commune.
Never was their an example of giving 10%, so to place that as the bottom is not rooted in giving under the new covenant. Also, tithing was not about money and most of the people you ask to give would be exempt from tithing under the old covenant law. In fact, many you ask to tithe would be considered recipients of the goods from the tithes rather than tithers. You who teach people to give 10% have totally twisted what tithing was and stitched together your own doctrine on the practice.
Now are you redistributing all the money you receive and giving it to the poor to establish equality in your congregation? I don’t have to ask if you are using the tithe as it was used under the old covenant, because you honestly don’t know what the tithe was.
Stephen, we can provide you the information, but we can’t make you read it. And it is your flock that you have assumed responsibility for that will suffer and you will bear the burden for that.
“Now are you redistributing all the money you receive and giving it to the poor to establish equality in your congregation?”
i don’t see that ever happening. BTW good post.
Mr Smith, believers in fact laid all at the feet of the apostle’s in Act’s, but you’re not an apostle. And what the heck is “kingdom work” ?, You so called pastor’s today set your self’s up as the absolute authority ( pope) how can you expect to hear God if you don’t respect his people. Also the first House of God in the Old Testament was not built by tithing it was built by giving freely Exod 25:1-9 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying: “Speak to the children of Israel, that they bring Me an offering. From everyone who gives it willingly with his heart you shall take My offering… And let them make Me a sanctuary, that I may dwell among them. According to all that I show you, that is, the pattern of the tabernacle and the pattern of all its furnishings, just so you shall make it. Tithing was an inheritance for the Levites Num 18:26 (funny I never heard any preacher preach on that?) also are you a Levite? What was given in Act’s was not a Tithe again freely with out guilt See Act’s 5:4; it was in their power, not guilt, not blessings, not favor, not healing,
Now that is how you throw a knock-out blow!
(I’m referring to Stephen’s “My gloves are now off!” statement in a comment further down in this thread.)
I felt the wind from that swing through my computer
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I thought I saw a solar eclipse, it must have been msamu’s glove blocking the sun as the swing passed over my town and landed near Memphis
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Amen Brother, you have articulated very well some of the deep wisdom of God’s Word
Pastor Stephen, can also explain one more thing?
You said: “I do believe in tithing and if one wants to state that this practice was just for the Old Testament Dispensation, . . . . I still wholeheartedly believe that it’s better to have a blessed ninety cents than a cursed dollar!”
But Paul said: “. . . CHRIST has redeemed us from the curse of the law . . . .” (Ephesians 3:12-14) (emphasis added)
Now, if CHRIST has redeemed me (and my money) from the curse of the law, how then am I (or my money) again cursed if I do not tithe?
Your response would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
Jesus didn’t rebuke those who were tithing in St. Matthew 23 verse 23. It’s a heart thing. Everyone loves God so much except when it comes to being asked to support the work of the ministry. The private Christian Commune won’t happen any time soon. Jesus himself declared that the poor would always be with us. The sins of Cain was that he first fell short in what he offered up to God. The any old thing that I give will be alright didn’t work well for Cain and I wholeheartedly believe that it will not work well for most Christians. My gloves are now off!
(MN: I would suggest you read the essay before we go too much further. I believe I address such things as Matthew and Jesus’ not rebuing those who tithed. Why would he? After all, they were still under the law. But again, at least scan the paper. That way, I won’t be answering questions and appeals that have already been addressed. At the beginning of this current discussion, I ask you to show me what I got wrong in the paper. That would probably be more productive than having you type something and me responding “It’s in the essay.”
For example, the following addresses the Matthew 23 issue:
So please, read the essay. Tell me what I got wrong.
By the way, God doesn’t want ten percent of my money. He wants a hundred percent of me (Romans 12:1,2). Since my money comes with me, if He has me, He has my money.
But again, read the essay. It will cut down on a lot of back and forth. )
Melvin I pray there is hope for him, but you see more potential in him at this point and I’m still trying to find it.
Stephen says:
I’m wondering when you’re actually going to toss a punch, because you’re so far from the target that you’re like a man swinging in the wind, while in your own mind you just landed a knock-out punch.
You mention that Jesus did not rebuke those who paid the tithe in Matthew 23, YES HE DID. He rebuked them for doing what was a lesser concern UNDER THE LAW in paying tithes on minuscule crops, while neglecting weightier matters of the law. We are not under the law. Just the same, Jesus and the apostles were not recorded to pay tithes and Jesus disrespected the temple tax to the point that he obtained the money from the mouth of a fish and paid it simply to satisfy the minds of those accustomed to paying it. And he only paid it for himself and Peter, not him and the 12, because it was just enough to beat back the legalistic folks who were looking at money.
The work of the ministry involves helping the poor, to which you respond:
For you to use that verse as a cop-out and butcher it in such a way is despicable. You are showing the true heart of deception and greed within you. Jesus said that regarding a woman who was anointing his feet in a one time event. While you continue to maintain a misguided system of collections and have shown little desire to do as Christ commands and consider the poor. You better read Matthew 25 and repent! My word man, you claim to be the head pastor of a church.
Almighty God as my witness, if lived anywhere near your church, I’d print off this exchange and post it on the front door of your building (Sure House Church, Inc.)!
This is not at all about any old thing, it’s about how your contrived system that you call tithing is not the will of the Lord.
Viper, your own ignorance and refusal to even skim the surface of the truth will be your undoing.
(MN: So IC, when are you going to stop holding your tongue and tell us what you really think? )
Thats a wonderful way to put it Melvin. I love that and I love this site. I have been a part of the pimps churches one of them being Noel Jones. I didnt know he was Oneness. I left because I couldnt stand listening to him another sunday. The worship music was tainted so that I could never enter in, one minute they’d be playing worship music and then the next you’d hear Flashlight, Atomic Dog, Earth, Wind & Fire, I kid you not this is a true story. I’d pray and ask the Lord what was blocking me from entering in during the Praise and Worship service. The Spirit of the Lord said to pay attention to the music, as I obeyed, those wordly songs are what I heard. The Lord let me know that, that is what was blocking me from entering into his presence. Cannot mix the world with the Church.
Well actually, I think you remained in the Lord’s presence by not entering that stuff. He was keeping you in his presence by keeping you OUT of that
.
Thanks IC, I never thought about it that way!
So glad that the Father always has our backs and He protects us from the garbage. It’s so easy to get caught up in that junk, the flesh loves to be tickled.
Mr. Smith, the mere fact that you embrace the customs of the Old Testament is proof and fact that you’re still waiting for a savior to redeem you from the chains of the law, Remember the text, Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. You can choose to follow the law Mr. Smith, the problem Mr. Smith is that your professing to be the “man O God” leading others in rejecting the word of God, You are being lead by your pride and arrogances and no New testament or old testament scripture to support your claim as you continue to reject the spirits attempt to lead you into all truth, what other reason are you here Mr. Smith unless God has lead you here for correction? Pray Mr. Smith and ask, you will receive put down your pride and the fear that you would be rejected by man and understand that rejection is God’s acceptance Mr. Smith
Well, to be fair msamu, tithing MUST be a heart thing like Stephen says.
After all, it’s abundantly clear it’s not a SCRIPTURE thing.
Oddly, in my encounters with those who cannot support their positions Biblically, this excuse is trotted out almost universally as if the Spirit is telling them something the Word doesn’t.
Gary, their is no tithe today, if you wish to give, give freely, if not keep it; it’s with in our power to hold it back,
msamu, Reread Gary’s point. He was being sarcastic to make a point.
“tithing MUST be a heart thing like Stephen says.
After all, it’s abundantly clear it’s not a SCRIPTURE thing.”
See he wasn’t promoting tithing. He was showing how easy it is for some to avoid scripture evidence by supplying emotional evidence. (SEE: your anti-seminary positions for a closer look at this attitude) Whenever we approach any subject emotionally and we try to forward a traditional mindset, we’re left with the job of defending that mindset without the aid of the Bible. And just for clarification, historical thinking and traditional thinking are not the same, in my not so humble opinion admittedly.
Thank you BLD!! You are correct sir!!
I agree entirely with your positions re seminary and the misinterpretation of “traditional” vs “historical” thinking as well.
I noticed how those who disagree with Stephen use scriptural reference to support their position whereas Stephen who is an ordained minister only supplies his interpretation based on his limited understanding of scripture. I do understand we are all limited to a certain degree with regards to understanding scripture but we can let scripture speak for itself.
Tithing had a specific purpose which was to make an acceptable offering unto the Lord and feed the Levite priests,widows,orphans,strangers,and the poor with what was left. See Deuteronomy 12 6-7 and 12-26. As someone so eloquently pointed out earlier Christ came to deliver us from the curse.
(MN: It’s the “Former ET Member” tag that gets my attention! )
Frankly, Pastor Smith, you did not answer my question. You have only accused me of not loving God enough to support the work of the ministry with my finances, told me that tithing is a “heart thing” and tried to apply a scripture that is not applicable here. (Thanks Melvin for summing it up so much better than I could).
The question again sir is this: If CHRIST has redeemed me (and my money) from the curse of the law, how then am I (or my money) again cursed if I do not tithe?
Mr. Smith you do not know what the bible teaches. There was no command to give in Acts 4, it was voluntary.. Even in the rebuke by Peter of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5:4, Peter ask “Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power?…”. Here Peter says that their possessions and the money they received for selling them belonged to them and it was THEIR DECISION what they should give. Paul tells the Corinthians in II Corinthians 9:7 “Every man according as HE PURPOSETH IN HIS HEART, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. So if I purpose to give 1% or 100%, when it comes to money it is up to me. Now I believe that my regenerated heart is instructed by the Holy Spirit what, when and how to give.
Bruh D, that was very good thank you for opening my eyes.
“Pastor” Smith, Cain’s sin was not that his offering was short, it was that his offering was by his own hands, by his own will- in other words, he sought salvation via his own means. Abel just believed, and that was what made his offering respectable onto God. Cain thought he would get approval with the fruits and vegetables he tilled himself, but Abel was presenting the means to salvation- the shedding of blood for the remission of sins, a picture of JEsus Christ. By faith Abel knew.
The fruits and Vegetables (In OT) represented a peace offering, the slaying of an animal was required for the remission of sin.
That is the difference, Cain offered what amounted to him not giving up an offering for the remission of his sin, Abel did just that…offfered up for his sin.
That is why God rejected (or had contempt) against Cain’s offering, it was a direct reflection of his heart. That he did not need mercy throught the blood of a slayed animal, when Abel (out of a humble heart) understood that he did, and was obedient to the Lord.
A mirrior reflection (concerning the matter of the heart) of Luke 18:1-14
The interpretations of the preceding individuals are amazing. Yes I emphatically stated that one who loves the Lord so much would support his work financially. The Bible has considerable passages of scripture in both the Old and New Testament concerning giving. (MN: Hint - at this point, it would be good to provide some and expound on them for us. ) Independent Conservative you have wrote some pretty mean spirited things in your posts.
What are you independently conservative about? I am always leary when I hear the word conservative. Is it a code word?
You all are still missing the point. How can we witness the example of those of other faiths who are willing to strap bombs to themselves in the name of their faith? While we argue over a penny out of every dime. It is a heart thing! Plain and simple!
The Book of Luke states that give and it shall be given back, good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over shall men give into your bosom. (MN: Give what? I suggest the thing given is mercy, starting with verse 36. He’s not talking about financial blessings any where in there. ) It’s printed in my Bible in red, for a biblical novice like myself that must mean that Jesus said it. (MN: Stephen, while I really like the fact that you are talking, I really must insist that you not simply repeat yourself. Rather, present Scripture to support the things you keep saying. You did well with the “almost” reference to Luke 6:36-38. )
Estella yes it’s a heart thing, being redeemed from the curse of the law doesn’t absolve you from giving. (MN: As an example - here you seem to be saying I am required to tithe. But doesn’t this fly in the face of the gracious character of salvation? If I “owe” God at least ten percent for saving me, then my salvation was not through grace. How can I or the money be cursed if I have been bought with a price and saved from the curse? ) How can we profess to love God so greatly and not support the work of the ministry? (MN: What exactly is the “work of the ministry”? Is spending funds to keep this site going “the work of the ministry”? Is John Coleman doing the work of the ministry? If so, why can’t I give money to him rather than my local congregation? Why can’t I send ten percent of my income to him and give a lesser offering to the local church organization? )
Independent Conservative i really don’t care what you think, because you seem to be an individual who will not listen to anyone. (MN: Stephen, this surely seems a case of the pot calling the kettle black, don’t you think? ) I know the type you know the people who have been around the world three times and met everybody twice. One more time I am not seeking your affirmation, your substantiation, or your validation Mr. Independent Conservative. Conservative is code language in some circles I would seriously think of another monicker!
(MN: Stephen, have you bothered to follow the link to IC’s site? You would see why he calls himself Independent Conservative. And if it’s code for something, it can’t be states rights stuff ’cause guess what? IC’s Black!)
Once again…………Scripture WRONGLY divided, personal attacks, and just plain old-fashioned bigotry.
Ya Hear DAT IC??? You is a white supremacist!!! Passah Stevie said so!!!
How can you NOT be tired of being WRONG so much?? How can you NOT be humiliated by the numerous times you’ve been shown to be ignorant??
This allusion to IC’s white supremacy takes the cake though.
Melvin………..for the love of Pete (not to mention the rest of us) just BAN this imbecile.
(MN: [Hear my best Deanna Troi voice here] I sense that he is beginning to understand how the site works. Finally. )
Pastor Stephen, i ask again could you please explain the differnce between the Old and New Covenants. Was the entire Law of Moses abolished or are we to observe certain ones? I would really like to know what you teach on this, or even what you believe.
Given this man’s attitude regarding ministry to the poor I am seriously troubled knowing this man is attempting to lead people. I’m using the e-mail over at http://www.cogic.org/ to allow his folks to see what he’s up to. If they are of any standard they will address this appropriately.
Despite whatever we discuss here, the bottom line is that he’s supposed to be leading a flock and his style of leadership is troubling. His elders should know who they really have representing their efforts in the faith.
And Melvin, don’t treat “states rights” like such a dirty term. Because I’d sure like some “state’s rights” regarding abortion, as in no more Roe v. Wade. A Federal ban (as in from Congress and signed by the President) on abortion would be even better, but back to the way it was would be better than now.
The Lawrence v. Texas decision has rocked this nation in so many ways. That’s another one that was better when states were able to decide.
Regarding race, there are Federal Laws that address that which trump states rights, but I know plenty of elderly Black folks that would even prefer states rights for that and feel we were a lot better off when Blacks were left to fend for themselves. I can’t say I agree with them, but on that I speak from ignorance because I was not living in the “before”, I’m just fine with the “after”.
Check out Mark Levin’s book Men in Black if you get a chance. Our problem really has been a judiciary that does not do its job. If it did, Plessy v Ferguson would have gone in our favor and there would not have ever been a need for a case like Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka. Our rights were always there and that’s what the 14 Constitutional Amendment was all about.
(MN: Believe me - I don’t have a problem with states rights. But most “liberal” Blacks break out in hives when you use the term. Oh, and I did live in the before. Not a lot of fun. )
By the way, no one is arguing about a penny out of a dime. The issue is whether or not we are stealing from God if we don’t tithe.
Mr. Smith…There it is…Tithe vs. Giving. You make plenty of cross references and use the terms interchangeably. They are in fact not the same.
GIVE: YES (Non-binding)
TITHE: (??) (Binding)
Are we REQUIRED to tithe? Is it BINDING? Giving comes from re-generation of the Holy Spirit, but the TITHE, I ask again. Is it BINDING??
What he’s telling people to give, who he is saying should give and what he’s doing with it does not meet the standard for the tithe. Not even close.
Even if we went with the idea of transferring the view of crops into money, in a manner that totally differs with “the law”, we still have a big problem with today’s contrived system of collecting being called a “tithe”. Because the way people like Mr. Smith use the term “increase” is TOTALLY out of wack with the use of the term under “the law”. He’s using a view of the term “increase” that is on par with what our earthly government calls “wages”. Wages are not increase for most Americans, who remain in debt. A major issue regarding who he’s even asking to obtain 10% from and even what they are paying 10% of. And then there is the whole matter of when it should be paid. ON TOP OF WHAT HE DOES WITH IT.
You see, to even attempt to bind people with even a twisted view of the tithe is insanity. It’s worse than throwing people back under the law Jesus freed everyone from. Because the law for tithing being implemented by Mr. Smith is demanding from people who were clearly exempt under “the law” and everyone is paying far more than they did under the “the law”. And when you factor in that today people also pay government taxes that are at a totally different rate, it creates a real form of financial bondage. But Stephen and he merry band of pimps don’t care, they are the beneficiaries of their contrived system of collection, that is totally out of the will of the Lord. Watching him attempt to defend it is humor at best.
I knew he was. I have been there before. I still would pick another monicker to go by.
I will address tithing from my website. I am not afraid of anything that you might do Independent Conservative or Gary V. I am disappointed that men who claim to love God so much don’t show it at all.(My Opinion)
Yes, I do believe in tithing and so does over 80% of the churches in our land. Is the institution supposed to be given up because several bloggers here said so. I will address it at my site and the posters here without venom can challenge it there if they post without venom. Gary V, you also have venom in all of your tones. Giving to God is a heart thing.
The anger that you and Mr. Independent Conservative show is the type of anger spoken of in the scriptures of those who would do others harm thinking that they were doing God a favor! Favor is not fair, but one shouldn’t battle the favor of another individual like you do. God is not a respecter of persons, and it is no secret what God will do what he has done for others he will do the very same for you!
My suggestion is to stop being so sour and dour. If I have been that to you in the past I apologize for that now. I am probably the first person that didn’t let you intimidate them. Pentecostals in the past have been streotyped as those who don’t standup to attacks. Well my kind friends there is a new generation on the block. Giving is still a heart thing! Thanks Melvin I don’t quite think that you are so bad. I do think that some that post here push you past where you would like to go. Whether you admit it or not. May your ministry go to the levels that it should. I still don’t like the title Conservative regardless of the race of the person carrying it. My lifestyle would mirror that of one that would carry that title, yet when all of the conservatives voted in the last election and the conservative television evangelists pushed their candidates in the last election there were very few issues that would affect African Americans in a positive way in their planks. Just thought I would add that for good measure. Thanks, Melvin I know understand your site. I can teach tithing because I have given many many thousands of dollars over the years that were not to my benefit. God has been so good to me. I am praying that each of you that disagrees with me would put God to the test. You can’t beat God giving. My God is a provider and not a liar. Mr. Independent Conservative men talk like I do. Real men don’t need permission from headquarters to speak.
(MN: Stephen, despite all the fine words, you still have not stood up to what you characterize as a fight. Your entire response has been based on what you feel, what you think and what 80% of the churchgoers do. But I ask again, what does the Bible say.
Please don’t wander off and try to discount all that has been said and is being said with some political smoke screen. It would be easy enough to race down the liberal vs conservative debate. But I think we have made too much progress to through that distraction into the discussion.
Again, if you would, read the essay and address the issues raised in the essay. Doing what you have done (I tend to call it bravado - big talk with no Scriputre to support it, at least none referred to explicitly) doesn’t really push the conversation forward. Yes, Gary is something of an attack mongoose. That is Gary. And yes, IC is very hard over on those who insist we tithe. But noen of these things address the validity of what they are saying.
Putting God to the test? Don’t you have to understand what God requires before you can see if He is faithful to what he promises? Read the essay. Address the statements in the essay. Try to separate yourself from feelings of insult, outrage, and the such. Remember, the only reason you should be able to teach tithing is because it is consistent with what the Bible teaches. Read the essay and tell me where I miss it. Appeal to Scripture, not popular behavior or emotions.
Last thing - it’s really interesting to watch as you argue using the old saws like “No one can beat God giving.” That may be true, but what does that have to do with whether or not the christian is required to tithe? Or: My God is a provider, and not a liar.” Again, what has this statement, though true, have to do with the issue at hand? That issue being “Does God required the CHristian to tihe/Is the CHristian robbing God if he doesn’t tithe?
By the way (and this is really the last things), you do realize that by addressing tithing on your website, you will not have to present anything better than the bromides you have just covered? If you hold to your normal way of doing it, there will also be no dissenting voices, challenging your position. You will be able to say what ever you want with no one having any idea whether or not any of the readers disagree with you. I’m not sure of the point of such a posting, other than displaying what you think, as opposed to what the Bible says. )
Stephen, you do understand that as a Christian, you are more of a conservative than a liberal, right?
For instance-
Conservatism is generally opposed to abortion. Liberals see it as a woman’s right.
Conservatives are opposed to homosexuality and calling it just another lifestyle choice. Liberals believe homosexuality is completely equal to normal sexuality and that homosexuals should have all the privilaeges of normal couples.
Conservatives measure compassion by the number of people you can get off of welfare and help to become independent citizens. Liberals measure compassion by the number of people they can put and keep on welfare, keeping them dependent on the state (federal or local).
Conservatives tend to want lower lexes and less government intrusion. Liberals want higher taxes, more government intrusion, and very restrictive laws.
Conservatives want people to be able to think as they wish and on their own. Liberals attempt to control what you think and how you think by trying to control what can be spoken and creating the idea of hate speech.
Conservatives are more than willing to work with a diversity of ideas. Liberals want only a diversity of appearance while everyone must think the same way.
Again, I suspect you are more of a conservative than you realize. But I also suspect you are a registered democrat, vote democrat (including in support of the homosexual, abortion, and welfar planks) and don’t even think about the true conflict between what you say you believe and what the democrat part pushes.
Melvin, I couldnt agree with you more. My heart aches when I see a pastor on TV with some politician in the pulpit making all kinds of promises. If the pastor would stop swinging from the chandeliers from excitement over this person and look at what they actually support, they would probably have a different view of them. I truly cant believe the ignorance of the so called leaders when it comes to politics. What have they to do with any candidate anyway…how can a Christian be liberal in their thinking? Someone please help me understand this!
If a Christian opens a church in an upscale part of town, isn’t it the righteous thing to do to encourage giving to the poor? Not just by words, but in example. Rather than trying to pull the “poor will always be with you” line and twist of the Lord’s words and intent, one would think that the head pastor of such a church would be working to give more to the poor.
Jesus asked his people to give to the poor, he did not go ask Caesar to establish mandatory wealth redistribution. The apostles ensured poor saints were taken care of THEMSELVES, they didn’t seek to have Caesar take some heathen’s money to do the job.
I want to say, that I agree with every single solitary word of the COGIC General Assembly Proclamation Against Same-Sex Marriage. They refuse to allow their clergy to do any of the same-sexed mess, regardless of what it is called!
Now, let’s have Barack Hussein Obama read that proclamation OUT LOUD and ask him if he agrees with it. On top of that, pro-death abortion companies (aka abortion providers that claim to work in the medical field) give Obama their highest rating of 100%.
Obama has affirmed when asked that he wants sex education in kindergarten. He voted for it and stood firmly by it when questioned.
I ask you as Christians, what is more important, the commands of God or the color of your skin?
Sodom and Gomorrah didn’t get blown up for issues relating to a welfare system, they got blown up for the filth in large part related to their sexual immorality. And EVEN THEY WERE NOT slaughtering babies as is done in the United States of America and if they did their numbers certainly pale in comparison to ours.
So what do I sway government to do? Do I seek to have government save a baby’s life first, or seek to have government first feed a living person who the church should be helping? (State programs already provide food and medical care for poor children outside of the womb and even inside of the womb if the mother does not decide the baby should die in there.)
I don’t like to get too political here, but when it comes to swaying conversation around here it seems Mr. Smith has been given numerous posts dedicated to him and plenty of attention. We see who takes things where they were not intended to go.
I am not telling anyone to vote for a party and that is why I remain Independent. But I can tell you that Obama does not carry values of righteousness on his platform and I know plenty of folks here are eying him up. As I’ve said on my own blog, there is a chance this time around that I’ll end up voting for somebody outside of the major parties, but I vote for who I see as the best choice regardless of their political affiliation.
Now back to the poor, instead of seeking to help the poor, it seems some would rather tell the poor to give to them and wait on the Lord to deliver them from poverty. This is a total twist on the message of Jesus Christ and why I am so hard on those who mandate giving them a set percentage. To me, such lies are the message of Satan himself and I don’t care if 99% of churches endorse it, it’s still a lie. Widows homes devoured and the Pimpopoly continues.
Amen and amen. Are you black first, or are you a Christian first? THAT’S the question…
I really don’t get why so many of us vote Democrat anyway, Christian or not…it just doesn’t help us as a community…*sigh*
And I better add to that, if any of you vote for the Mormon named Mitt Romney, you’re OUT OF YOUR MIND!!! Don’t you ever put a man who was bishop of a cult in any form of leadership over you!
Well Stephen, it’s like this.
You claim to be correct, going so far as to attack this site unprovoked. You then remove and hide the responses which would have displayed your errors like a coward.
That is evidence of pride, corruption, and insincerity.
You then come here and take even MORE unsubstantiated, unBiblical, and exegetically ignorant stances. You have been prompted repeatedly to substantiate YOUR position from Scripture and prove the position CONTRARY to yours in error. Once again, rather than answer the challenge, you insult, distract, and obfuscate, even going so far as to take ignorant racial potshots.
You cannot defend your doctrine, you cannot prove our interpretations in error, you refuse to admit that your positions are untenable despite all this,and you STILL haven’t read the article you have been asked to so that an intelligent dialogue can take place (which proves that you are not interested in ascertaining Truth).
In all, your ramblings are testament to your unteachable nature, your dishonesty and pride due to deleting anything which showcases your error (and illustrates your unfitness to your poor flock), and your lack of love for Truth in failing to examine the case for tithing (or any of the other innumerable errors you have set forth) or present Scriptural evidence that supports your position.
In all, you are a waste of bandwidth.
To be more succinct Stephen………..this site is about defending Truth. You are obviously NOT here to defend Truth (as evidenced by your refusal to Scripturally defend your stances).
You are only here to defend YOURSELF. As I recall, there is already a website out there solely dedicated to defending YOU, even to the point of revisionism and dishonesty. I suggest that any bandwidth you consume would be better served there.
If you had even show an INCLINATION to search the Scriptures, I’d welcome your continued presence.
I’ve been corrected doctrinally here by Melvin before, and had no problem with that.
I’ve had to apologize very publicly here as well for some statements, and had no problem with that either. Because I care about Truth more than my reputation
PLEASE………..consider your ways. Consider your motives. I don’t care if you necessarily AGREE with Melvin, or myself, or IC, or anyone else.
We DO care that you demonstrate a willingness to defend doctrine,and pursue Truth. Otherwise, as I said, you already have a place to go to defend yourself.
Hey Mel, maybe your next poll should be rather or not to ban Mr. Stephen F. Smith. He has made it clear that he does not want to have it made clear to him. You’ve done an excellent job of coaching him through the process of structuring an argument and he still does not get it. Posting comments is not what this site is about. This site is about clearly and intelligently presenting arguments based in fact in order to back up posted comments. Like Michael Samuels, Gdub, and some others, he has shown an unreasonable demeanor when it comes to acknowledging truth. I’ve been shown to be off base or at least unclear as to what I have intended to convey by what I have posted. When this happened I did not repeat myself but rather I clarified my position by offering coherent statements of fact as evidence to promote better understanding in the mind of the reader. Mr. Smith does not accept such a challenge.
In the COGIC, at least in my experience, these guys get used to not being asked to explain themselves. They misquote Hebrews 13:17 to say that challenging them will prove ruinous at the judgment. My own brother, who is a COGIC pastor, quoted this scripture to me when I challenged his authority even though I’m not a member of his church. He even said that at the judgment (he made no distinction in them by the way) according to that verse, all the pastors that I had throughout my life will stand next to me to give an account of my performance as a member of their respective churches. Can you believe that? I then asked him, “Well what happens if they don’t agree” to which he didn’t reply. For the most part, they know nothing of Biblical Christianity. As traditionalist who believe that the Church which began in Acts was on hold until Azusa Street, it is no wonder that exegesis of the bible for them translates into “cancelling out the Spirit”! They are already convinced that they know what God has to say about everything. However, many will not admit that all they really know is what “Bishop So-and-So” said. That’s why when they speak, or write in this case, all you here or see is cliched Christianity which itself is untenable. Because when you go to the scriptures you find out that most if not all of those cliches are not supported.
Many will say, “Well, what about the doctrine? Isn’t that most important?” Well when you read the Doctrines of the COGIC (which you can at cogic.org) you will see that the church is in line with historical Christianity on “The Bible”, “The Trinity”, and “Sin”. Everything else is debatable. I would say that their view of “Man” and their view of “Salvation” is Anthropocentric (man-centered). I believe them to be totally off on “The Baptism of the Holy Ghost”, “Divine Healing”, and “Miracles”. And they add the ordinance of “Feet Washing” which I have no personal problem with, only it’s not historical. I would also say that they promote “Salvation by Grace” but they practice “Salvation by Works”. So yes doctrine is very important and in this case not very biblical. Until that is addressed nationally by those in charge I have no choice but to lump them all under their own banner. If you know that the organization to which you belong teaches falsehoods and refuses to change because of tradition and you stay, then you deserved to be lumped in with them. Just my not so humble opinion, admittedly!!!
I understand how you feel and why you are saying it. However, Stephen is a special case. I want to continue to grant him access.
If Stephen wants to conitnue a discussion with me, I welcome it. The rest of you, if you have the view LD just expressed, are certainly free not to engage him in discussion.
I believe you are right with respect to his not having to defend any of the silly things he says. But I am, at least at this point, convinced that there may in fact be hope for him and would just as soon continue, on a lower intensity, the discussion. I will try not to bore any of you. But I suspect the conversation will be fairly interesting if I manage it correctly.
I wouldn’t go as far as to insist that you ban him. But it gets a bit frustrating that he’s not providing scripture for his arguments. Anyone can debate opinion since it holds no true authority besides a particular person’s vantage point. But, in light of scripture our personal opinions are thrown out of the window. Like Christ said “not my will, but let his will be done”. I question whether or not he’s looking to be right (pride) instead of searching for and obeying what is right (truth).
It can definitely be frustrating. But I suspect it will be more than worth it in the long run. If nothing else, we get to see into the mind of the average COGIC pastor/preacher, effectively equipping us to talk to the average COGIC congregant.
Besides, I suspect he is unaccustomed to the idea of backing up what he says with Scripture. In all probability, no one did it with him and he hasn’t had to do it as an elder or pastor. He probably has scripture to support what he says, he simply isn’t in the habit of presenting it. He may think it’s too obvious or something.
Pastor Smith,
To let U know, I wrote to U recently n’ provided some links on your site that might be insightful/of interest 2 you regarding “Tithing” (specifically in the recent “Megachurches in America? Post…with this link being the focus:
http://www.generousgiving.com
Regardless of one’s stance, the site’s pretty well-balanced regarding Biblical Arguments n’ explaining the Old Testament tithe system, its conspicuous absence for the most part from the NT, and what application (if any) the tithe has for us today….and, moreover, highlighting the greater issue of Christian Stewardship.
Pray it helps U as it did me, Brah. Later….
Hey Mel, I could help you to get an inside look into the mind of the average COGIC pastor/preacher but it would basically sound insulting to them. A COGIC congregant needs to be told the same thing that a Roman Catholic needs to be told. Read/Study the bible and don’t ignore what you see there. After that, ask God for the courage to share it with everyone that you know that doesn’t know. I’m not just saying this because of any bias.
To tell the truth, I was born and raised in the COGIC. My dad started a church Dec ‘91. I was licensed to preach Father’s Day 2000. I was ordained an elder July 18, 2003. It was during the examination that I realized that I was giving answers to the board of elders questions that I believed were unscriptural. For example, I was asked by one elder, “What are the three ways to receive the Holy Ghost and where are they found?”. The answer they were looking for is as follows, including the scriptures they based them on:1. “tarrying”-Luke 24:29 (By the way, this consist of kneeling at the “altar” saying Thank you Jesus until you get IT) 2. “Laying on of hands”-Acts 8:17 (I’ve never seen this done in my presence but they claim it happens all the time) 3: “falling down on you”-Acts 10:44 (This is supposed to happen when God’s “anointed” word is preached, which doesn’t say much for the preaching in the COGIC)
The problem is mystical intuition trumping doctrinal soundness based on God’s Word contextually and grammatically. The congregant who is truly saved is already feeling that something is not right about what is being said and done in the church services. Remember that means that the Holy Spirit is already at work in them and the scriptural evidence that you present will speak for itself. That’s what happened to me, Praise God!!!
This is pretty much what happens when self called pastors have the mindset that they don’t
have to answer to their brothers and sisters. Mr.Smith is just like the rest of them who hold to wrong teaching believing that just because they’re the pastor, they don’t have to give an account to anyone but God.
Mr.Smith, it goes like this- Acts 17:11
Nicely said Derrick…………that’s twice in a row we’re in agreement!! HEHEHE
are you saying that COGIC is a heretical organization?
Brother Curt,
According to Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words a heresy is defined as “a choosing, choice, an opinion, especially a self-willed opinion, which is substituted for submission to the power of truth, and leads to division and the formation of sects; such erroneous opinions are frequently the outcome of personal preference or the prospect of advantage.”
Now Brother Curt, if you have one, read the history of the COGIC found in the manual starting on page XXIII. You will read of splits, divisions, and the like all based on limited at best, exegesis of scripture to form doctrine. You will read of long time companions splitting because some wanted the old historically biblical practices to continue and some wanted this “new thing”. Now research the “Azusa St. Revival” and tell me how many denominations came out of it. How many new denominations trace their roots back to Azusa? I only know of one other event in Christian history that has split the church more than that so-called revival. The formation of the Roman Catholic Church. Other than skin-color, there is no more divisive issue in Christianity today, than the operation of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer according to the bible. A false view of God breeds error in other doctrinal areas.
In some ways I would think that heresy implies intent and that it would not apply here. However, I would submit to you that even you know how difficult it is to get COGIC folks to consider scriptural evidence over tradition. Therefore, I believe that a refusal to adhere to the Bible in spite of tradition is formulating a “self-willed opinion, which is substituted for submission to the power of truth”.
So the question is not if I’m saying it but rather is the definition of heretical applicable to the COGIC as I have stated. If so, then will YOU say “that COGIC is a heretical organization”? Remember, don’t think of all the people who you have come to believe to be saved, anointed, etc. and have therefore come to greatly respect. Think only of what they believe and promote, and asks yourself is it biblical and if not, is it heretical. Let me know what you think.
Well given the rise of the Oneness doctrine, Prosperity doctrine/Word of Faith and things of that sort I don’t know which is the “most” divisive issue at the moment, but I do think that we need a discussion of the operation of the Holy Spirit here at some point. Really, getting into that helps to better explain why some of the activities of people like Benny Hinn, TD Jakes and Eddie Long are far from the truth. So I guess it is an issue that touches on some of the false doctrine that is advancing today in the minds of people.
Paul Morton’s Full Gospel Baptist split from the Southern Baptist is totally based on a view of the operation of the Holy Spirit in believers. Morton’s bunch has spawned and fostered all manner of pimpery and deception, far beyond any complaint I can level against today’s Southern Baptists.
The bottom line of delving more deeply into the ministry of the Spirit is simply this………
Jhn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall NOT speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Jhn 16:14 He shall glorify me (JESUS): for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you.
ANY ministry whose FOCUS is the Holy Spirit, whose primary PURPOSE is to elevate the Holy Spirit, and whose goal is to manipulate the Holy Spirit by various means, is NOT a valid ministry and is NOT being led by the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit WILL NOT SPEAK OF HIMSELF. He speaks of CHRIST.
So such garbage as Benny Hinn’s pack of lies and deception “Good Morning Holy Spirit”, and all the false “prophets” who love to give their “personal words”, and all the “Glory Clubs” (can’t call them churches) who spend hours seeking signs and wonders, dancing about and shouting in the hope that the Holy Spirit is going to (as Stephen puts it) “Move in on the Glory Cloud” are in violation of the Words of Christ .
IC, you’re right it is probably very difficult to pinpoint the “most” divisive issue. Perhaps my emphasis was more that the misunderstanding of the Holy Spirit’s operation is the “source” of the divisiveness. Sometimes if people realized how they viewed God as a whole, like I was forced to do, then they may realize that that view is not biblically based.