(MN: Mr. Woods origninally submitted this as a comment. I thought it might be somewhat thought provoking so I decided to make it a posting. )
Deb (not the one who has been posting since the beginning), I have a survey for you and everybody on here who has a problem with Christian Hip Hop. In fact, the survey can be taken by anyone who wishes to do so. I suspect the greater number of people may be more instructive.
If you decide to answer these questions please be 100% honest.
Melvin will post my follow-on comments once you complete the survey.
You don’t have to use your real name or even your usual tag. Anonymity is preferred but not required. All I ask is that you be serious and honest in answering the questions.
Survey Question #1 - Please list the last 5 movies you watched at the theatre, by DVD, on HBO, or on one of the other uncensored cable outlets.
Survey Question #2 - Please list your five favorite Television/Cable shows and provide a very brief summary of the premise of each program. (For instance “Will and Grace is a sitcom about a homosexual and his female friend.” Or “‘24′ is a day in the life of Jack Bauer, a Counter Terrorism Unit agent.”
I’m a huge advocate of solid Christ centered Christian rap (Shai Linne, Timothy Brindle, Lecrae, Flame, B Morr etc.)
#1
Over the Hedge-RJ the squirrel dupes a family of animals into going over the hedge to gather food. I’m late, I know.
Restraining Order-A wife seeks divorce which leads to the insanity of her husband. Sad ending.
Clean Comedy Tour-Four stand up comedians tell clean jokes (imagine that!) It was alright. I still have two comedians to watch.
Blades of Glory -Two male skaters enter the world of pairs skating after being suspended from male skating. Don’t go see this.
Teenaged Mutant Ninja Turtles 3 -4 Turtle brothers go back in time to save a village from an evil ruler. Coincidence. The new TMNT was coming out so my aunt went out and got me TMNT 2 & 3.
#2 *I only watch DVDs at home (no cable and bad reception), listen to news/talk radio daily and check out YouTube from time to time, so my list is going to be strange but here goes…*
Good Times (on DVD) -A black family in 1970s (or 60s?) solves life’s problems one episode at a time
Judge Mathis (listen to this on the radio when at home and watch when I visit relatives)-A judge handles small claims cases in a humorous manor.
People’s Court (listen to this on the radio and watch when I visit relatives)-A judge handles small claims cases in a humorous manor.
What Not To Wear (when I visit relatives)-Fashion victims are nominated to go to New York and spend $5,000 on clothing using the fashion tips of consultants.
The View (began listening on radio about a month when O’Reilly really began to get down on Rosie O’Donnell’s anti-American statements-Four women from different walks chat about current events and conduct interviews.
Last 5 movies:
Amazing Grace
Night at the Museum
The Departed (uh..oh)
Flushed away
Happy feet
Fav 5 tv shows:
House. A really mean doctor who knows the answer to everything. Interestingly enough, there was one episode called “God vs House” in which he actually tied with God.
Sportscenter
Cold Pizza
Nba and Nfl games
Soccer (I grew up in Africa.)
I dont watch the movies that come on t.v. its all garbage. I only watch some very tasteful movies from the 30’s,40’s, and the 50’s.
hip hop don’t belong in Gods house bottem line!
The bible consists of 66 books with thousands of verses, can you show me one that can back your statement? If not I am going to pull out the Pharisee card and write you off. What type of music belongs in God’s house (where is this house anyway? we don’t want to go back to the church building argument do we?) Denise with no scripture you are speaking for God when he hasn’t spoken to you and that my dear is sin!
I believe that Christian rap can glorify God. I do not believe that Hip hop can. Hip hop was founded in the party scene of NewYork around 30years ago. It consisted of drinking, some drugs, sex and pride. How does that fit into the midst of the congregation? Not everything is necessary. Hip hop is not necessary.
Some will enevitably argue that we need it to reach the masses. Well, if the Word doesn’t reach them, then nothing will. Nothing can compare to the strength and glory of God’s Word. We can’t use things of the world to bring people to Christ. If we do, we give them a false idol in the thought that it is the “thing” and not Christ that will save them.
Denise:
You’re absolutely correct, that is of course if you’re talking about you as the house of God and not some inanimate object such as a building. Becouse we each have liberty to choose what enters our house, if you don’t want rap in your’s so be it, you should not be condemned, but if another accepts it who are you to condemn them.
Amen you all, it is becoming clearer who the “house” really is……speak the truth
1 Cor 3:16-17
Can it be that all objections to so called Christian rap music, dance, movies, dress, life are legalistic in it’s origin, we have to answer to God not to men, paraphrasing the word of God, “with the mouth you praise me but your heart is far away”, since we cannot see into another man’s heart as God can all we can do is examine our own, if my heart and soul rejoices in praising the one true God, what does the style of music have to do with it, does God hear the beat of the music or does he hear the beat of my heart that race’s after him?
Here is a verse Denise, tell me what you think.
I was made to worship and adore you–enjoy you
Put you on a pedestal and lay there before you
The more you do work in me the more I can’t ignore you
I’ve been in awe
Every since my inner man first saw you
Got so many names
We can’t run out of things to call you
They’re all true
These are what we ought to use to draw you
‘Cause any picture of the immortal is skimpy
Even classic pictures by Leonardo DaVinci
‘Cause you’re the wise God
Immortal and invisible
And Jesus Christ is your only accurate visual
Every one should honor you just for your common grace
Good comes from you God
It’s like wine and grapes
You’re omnipresent
You protrude beyond time and space
You’re holy
You’re set apart like mom’s china plates
You’re showy
You got shekinah
And you shine your grace
Are these words biblical, full of worship and doctrinally sound? Good questions right. If you can’t find anything wrong with these words tell me why it does not belong in God’s house?
How many of your favorite “gospel” artists would do this:
http://www.merchline.com/reach/productdisplay.5009.p.htm
The 116 Clique is back with the Groundbreaking new album where rap and the bible collide!
Beats, Rhymes, and the Scriptures…. we mashed them together to create 13 Letters, a hip hop overview of Paul’s letters in the New Testament. Ever wish you had a better understanding of some of the Bible? Now you have a tool that can help you grasp it! Each track breaks down a different book that Paul wrote!
This is also coming with a DVD as well as a manual to go with it.
Most of them are still singing old cliches.
I rather sing a hymn then some of the gospel music I hear on my radio.
Christian hip hop has been used to evangelize in the hoods that most folk don’t want to go into. ( I am not saying this is the only way to do it.) It has also been used to lead people to sound doctrine. What you say? Yep I said sound doctrine. A friend of mine, heard a christian hip hop artist rhyme about sound doctrine vs. faulty doctrine. She did the research herself which lead her to a solid church.
Countless others have testimonies of the same thing. They may have heard a song from a CHH artist which clearly spoke of salvation, which caused them to repent.
As for the videos, just like in the popular gospel music now, a lot of them are all about entertaining and not ministry. So there will not be a distinction from BET. Those are the folks that I don’t listen to lol.
If The 116 Clique is not just about a record deal, why not make this study guide freely available?
Good Evening Mr. Woods,
In my personal opinion the evil is not always in the lyrics “words” of the so called Christian hip hop, rap, and rock music but, it is cleverly concealed in the music. By “music” I mean the arrangement of rhythms, tones and harmonics. Instrumental music has a profound effect upon the mind and it greatly influences and manipulates us more than we know.
I watched a program on the documentary channel about Haitian Vodou. These people were chanting KJV Psalms and other Biblical verses to the beat of the drum “music”. The music began to intoxicate them, excite them and their bodies began to convulse and jerk. Their eyes rolled back in their heads as they danced, danced, and danced. Some of them were knocked across the floor by unseen forces and fell unconscious. After the ritual was over, the journalist did an interview with a tourist who had become engaged in the festival. The tourist “lady” said that something had taken possession of her body.
This very same “music” not the lyrics!, not the words! has infiltrated the Church under the banner of Christianity in the form of rap/rock and hip hop.
Revelation 2:7 - He that hath an ear, let him hear what the spirit saith unto the churches…
In the love of Jesus Christ,
Deb - Atlanta
The last five movies that I watched are:
Junior Miss, 1945 - two young girls coming of age/having fun in New York.
Since you Went Away, 1946 - the struggles of family life when the dad goes away to war.
Teen Dating 2007 El. G. Craig - the distractions of teen dating.
Portrait of Jennie, 1948 - the portrait of an artis who falls in love with a beautiful lady.
Kathleen, 1949 - young girl who doesnt want her dad to remarry.
hope that answers your question about the movies that I watch. I dont like the shows that come on t.v. or cable. I have been collecting Classic movies for about 20 years.
The sitcoms, and movies that are out now, I dont ever watch.
Whats your point?
The real bottom line is that most of the movies and/or TV shows I’ve seen recently are not based on scripture. And I think that can be said for most all of us. Some of those movies and TV shows include material that a Christian should not view. I don’t feel it benefits anyone to tell of specific shows, given that could lead others into temptation. I find I’m doing best when the TV is turned off, I’m not in a movie theater and no media is playing on my PC.
(MN: I think it does and can benefit folks. I’m not at all convinced that Mr. Woods’ exercise falls under the tent of “Stumbling a Brother” for a couple of reasons. First, the stumbling you speak of is more the idea of someone saying “Well, if so and so can do this thing that I consider a sin, and still grow as a Christian, then so can I do this thing that I consider a sin and grow as a Christian. No one, at this point, is saying what they watch is acceptable. In fact, it’s quite the opposite. Mr. Woods, as you have correctly pointed out, is illustrating the relative…uh…relativity with which we view church stuff as opposed to secular or secular sounding stuff. Your rationale for Paul’s not mentioning specifics is a good theory, but not really one we can use in the discussion. After all, Paul gave no indication that he sinned because he was slacking off. Some how “Paul” and the phrase “slacking off” just don’t seem to go together.
I also figured this would re-ignite and give some structure to the “Hip Hop is From the Devil!/No It’s Not!” discussion rather nicely. And of course, Hip Hop is just one of a multitude of secular vs holy issues we should deal with in our lives on a daily basis in order to be consistent and faithful in our walks. Most of the discussion here will be easily applied to other issues such as secular music, sports, theatre, many if not most, “Non-Christian” activities. For instance, what makes something intrinsically wrong? When does an association with ungodliness present us from using a certain tool or avenue? )
While Paul mentioned how he wrestles with sin, he never saw a need to name specifics. And I feel this is for good reason. Any specific that Paul would have mentioned would be an area that we might feel we could also slack off in. After all, we’re not Jesus and if an apostle did it…
As the scripture says we should express that which is good, even if for correction.
Now regarding using Hip Hop as a means to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ. This is a matter I’ve gone full circle on. And I’ve been led by scripture to feel that it should not be used and that Gospel music should have a distinct and separate sound from the world for the given culture we live in. Anything else could lead others into temptation. (MN: And example - what is distinct Gospel music? Is some of the
crapstuff turned out by the current set of musicians the Gospel sound? Or do we limit ourselves to such things as “A Mighty Fortres”, “I’ll Fly Away,” and “It Is Well With My Soul’? Would the first century worshippers consider these songs too secular? Would the 14th Century Christians be comfortable with the current set of songs? )Consider 1 Corinthians 8. Paul says he’ll even abstain from meat if his weaker brethren might stumble by him eating it. He say IT IS A SIN to do something that might cause our brother to stumble, although we would otherwise be free to do it. We know Hip Hop has caused way too many to stumble and assimilating the sound into a gospel message gives the wrong impression.
We have been instructed that while we are in the world and sharing the message of Jesus Christ, we are to be separate and distinct in how we present ourselves. We are to assume a modest posture. Our women are not to adorn themselves with gaudy attire. Jesus scorned the priests who wore gaudy clothing. Neither men or women are to be mistaken with those of the world. Our speech should also be different. Yes Christians should be “squares”. Trying to be “hip” and “cool” leads weaker saints to stumble and fall for the temptation of being “hip” and “cool” in ways that are not “holy”. To win saints by being “hip” forces the Christian to strive to be the most “hip” person on the scene in order to attract more people, this is not right at all. This is the great error of the “seeker churches” (MN: Seeker Friendly ).
We have to help people to understand that they should DENY themselves and walk with Jesus Christ. Not indulge what pleases their own ears.
I don’t do too many movies. The last movie I saw was Finding Nemo (daughters birthday) I watch DVD’s at home as well - Time changer - The Robe - Unidentified - Veggie tales - Good times and Angel Wars. I don’t have cable and the few minutes I turn on the tv I usually can’t stomach many of the sitcoms. I will watch sports or play Madden.
I am ashamed to say… the movies aren’t so bad:
LOTR: Fellowship of the Ring
LOTR: The Two Towers
LOTR: Return of the King
No More Baths (a Family Movie)
Coyote Summer (a Family Movie)
… but the TV shows are a slightly different story:
Lost - plane crashed on an island; themes of sex, violence interspersed throughout
Survivor - reality show of people who must survive 39 days on an island w/ minimal resources while completes various challenges
The Bachelor - uggh! I know… reality show, man must choose one of 25 women… theme: sex
Amazing Race - reality show, couples compete in a race around the world, completing various tasks along the way, pretty benign though you do get the occasional gay couple
American Idol - singing competition where people vote for their favorites; immodesty and sexual innuendo in some song choices
My point is that so many people agree with Craig G on music but watch the most wicked t.v shows and movies. You not being one. You pass the test so I can’t say much to you other than you have a valid arguement (from your personal perspective not biblical) on Christian Hip Hop
Funny enough, my premise has been the same with regard to movies and TV. But yet some of it is extremly subtle that it is hard to escape.
Example, me watching NFL Network on a frantic basis gets me caught up into it at points. I believe it has to do with over-exposure.
The show (much of the time) is glorified gossip, the same with sports talk radio. So I have had to guard myself and what exactly my purpose is in entertaining the shows that I do.
CSI SVU as well. The plots and overall drama are gruesome, but yet (I believe has just as much-if not more-influence on the thoughts and actions of individuals rather than music).
The incident at VTech sparred various “copycat” crimes and various sprees of violence, although smaller and not as gruesome, but yet similar (just as the Columbine incident did). Music is no different, all copycat.
Many movies with the extreme graphic scenes, and vernacular isn’t as healthy either. I believe it is about perspective, so I wouldn’t bash hip-hop as much because it is simply a reflection of how contradicting & evil society really is.
I don’t expect much from it. Like Russell Simmons concerning the Don Imus situation. He (in response to Imus) gave the classic cop-out exuse for rappers in doing what they do in music.
That they talk about what they see around them. That premise often-times laments for another individual to simply emulate what it is that they see as it is glorified on TV and over the airwaves, no matter music or violence.
It is a license to simply develop your environment, based on your feelings and emotions…no matter how twisted they are. Many of these rappers aren’t as poor, ridiculed, and violent as we think, and (as many sociologists state) they (at least of the more recent phenomenon) create their own environment in what they see.
A twisted double standard, but yet it is ultimately a mirror image of the contradiction in society as a whole.
This is more of a red herring or strawman though.
When I watch secular media, I don’t expect a lot from it…other than mind numbing entertainment with high production value (a lot of niche entertainment just doesn’t have good acting, decent script and the razzle dazzle of special effects).
When I watch something with a spiritual agenda, I expect a different outcome. Either being edified or challenged to though.
For example, I found the OTT brutality of The Passion of the Christ to be gratuitous but, several key scenes were of note to me. The scene from the garden where the Christ crushed the head of the serpent and the end when he arose. These are messages of ‘My God over comes’ and ‘My God is a LIVING God!’ Often, issues over looked by others who focused only on the violence.
The movie Dogma by Kevin Smith challenged me to think on concepts of [i]dogma[/i]tic beliefs, the pain of true seperation from God, vengence and forgiveness. Did the angel in the end get to go back to Heaven? Good for debate and bible study.
The movie, Man of Faith about Revered Leroy Jenkins, let me see a fan-boy presentation of a huckster’s story.
Same with The Apostle starring Robert Duvall, is this a story of redemption or self delusion in the face of sin?
Movies:
the Departed - decent story line, very language intensive though, after this movie I am choosing not to watch these types anymore
Night at the Museum - great movie
Pusuit of Hapiness - even better movie
Star Wars 1,2,3,4,5,6
LOTR 1,2,3
Network: (shows I tivo)
Stargate SG-1
Stargate Atlantis
NFL Network
Dresden Files
Smallville
I don’t know where I have been but when did we get into a discussion on “so-called” Christian Hip Hop. Oh well, I never claimed to be the sharpest knife in the drawer. Anyway, I don’t actually remember the last time I went to the movies. (Too busy, neither does my wife) Since I channel surf when I watch t.v. it’s very rare that I watch an entire show anyway. I’ll give my memory a try though, so here goes:
Movies: The Last Boy Scout, Mo’ Better Blues, Waist Deep, 16 Blocks, and One Night With the King
T.V- Around the Horn, Pardon the Interruption, The O’Reilly Factor, Hannity & Colmes, House
I watch almost everything BOXING including bouts on Telemundo in Spanish.
Now if I were a lawyer in court, I would have objected on the grounds of relevance. But I’ll overrule myself and give you a chance to explain. (See Mel I’m practicing my benevolence)
My personal opinion is easily explained. For my personal taste I don’t like so-called Christian Hip Hop. When I catch the videos on the Word Network I can’t see or hear a difference between them and the videos on BET.(Which I don’t make a habit of watching but have seen) I also don’t believe that music of any sort is (look at the word I use) NECESSARY for evangelism. The gospel is to be evangelized and the Spirit of God does the drawing. If someone wants to entertain themselves with so-called Christian Hip Hop, I don’t judge their liberty. By the way, I would use the “so-called” tag in front of any form of music claiming to be Christian these days.
When did God become concern about redeeming things of man…..instead of man himself???? Are you saying God could use holy hiphop to reach the lost???
I have a question. Would any of you go into Korea and say “Hey you have to change your culture to a biblical culture (which is mostly Western) or your worship is not of God.” What about Africa where the Gospel has been preached and they still paint their faces and perfrom dance ceremonies for the Lord? Would you label that wrong? Would you say it does not belong in God’s house? What about Somoa where they where Somain clothing still do their chants but they glorify God. What I am seeing in these responses is the statement “the way I worship is correct and other cultures need to either conform or will be written off as wrong”. That is sin.
Once we say “our worship” is superior to the way others worship we have crossed the line. My heart hurts here because what I am seeing is a people group with a superiority complex. If any of you were to become world missionaries you would have a rough time because you couldn’t draw the line between culture and essentials. I am pained to see such Godly people make the responses here.
Once we judge something outside of biblical parameters we can easily become useless to reach that culture. And hip hop is a culture whether you like it or not, just as the hippies, suburbia and the inner city. We become all things to all men that we may win some (as long as it is not seeker friendly or sin, which most of you would be chanlledged by the lyrics in some of the stuff I listen to). Very Heavy Theology and God glorifying lyrics.
Nobody is talking about changing other cultures, but that a Christian should show themselves to be in the world, but not of it. For their given culture they should be set apart. Otherwise the Christian woman should dress like all others.
I didn’t say don’t pray with vain repetitions, Jesus did. So even if the culture is different, Matthew 6:7 is still to be considered. This is not to say change them to a western style, but regarding prayer, Jesus gave the instructions.
Regarding “all things to all men” I think you might have that a little twisted to suit your point. Paul said it in 1 Corinthians 9 because he was talking about acknowledging the strict rules of those living under the law. It does not mean he acted like a heathen to minister to a heathen. In fact, to PREVENT himself from being confused with the heathen he walked a tighter line. For the sake of his brethren that might otherwise be tempted.
I say keeping the Hip Hop in the church might tempt children to go astray from what they hear that sounds cool.
Was the church wrong to once have a separate sound?
You have liberty and you also have young brothers and sisters to think about. Urban cultures always had various styles in the past and back then the church was different and still helped people learn about Jesus.
(MN: What makes the sound “separate”? )
So are you saying those who participate in Christian Hip Hop act like heathens? IC I have always respected you; however, that is what it sounds like to me. As for clothing Paul says modesty, not style. You can wear what you please as long as it is modest. What does it mean by being in the world IC? Does that mean I only shop at Christians grocery stores? What about clothing should my clothes only come from Christian designers. What about my bank, or investments, or job? You being a sound guy has taken that scripture out of context! Give me your logic on the tempting kids. Does Fred Hammond tempt kids to listen to R. Kelly? Does listening to Mahalia make you want to listen to Billy Holliday or someone of that era? You killing me IC! I posted some lyrics up top IC. Show me where those lyrics tempt kids to do anything other than glorify the Lord! I don’t think you can so I am going to have to throw you into the same pot as Denise and Deb, sorry.
Like with the people in other countries matter, you’re adding onto our words when you speak about grocery stores and such. We never spoke of who products are purchased from.
Now, if a Christian prays in repetitions, are they a heathen? No, but they are engaging in actions that are known to be done by heathens. Like it or not Hip Hop is FULLY AND COMPLETELY taken as street gutter trash, because of what those on top of the music charts have done with it. St. Andrews Cross was a Christian symbol, but it has become twisted and is no longer of any good Christian use, because it’s nothing better than a symbol of the Confederacy and racism now.
So for Christians to embrace Hip Hop in the name of ministry is an effort to use something viewed as garbage by most of society, when ministry can be done effectively without it.
This is why I say it should not be used and I’ve given my biblical justification for it.
If a Christian artist is using similar styles as one talking about sex, it’s naive to assume that someone who enjoys that style of music won’t have some strong temptations towards music that caters to their flesh. Because in blending with such styles, you’re not focusing on the message, but style.
I’ve only done a quick skim of the lyrics you posted above and I don’t see a problem with them as simply lyrics. But put them with a style associated with the gutter and their meaning can be confused with something of darkness.
And if you feel most of the folks trying to blend Gospel into Hip Hop are modest, you have not listened to much. I’ve listened to a good bit of it. Which is part of the reason I give it a thumbs down.
Many churches don’t use real wine at communion. Why? To avoid tempting someone who is weak. It is similar with music.
What about Sex IC? Hugh Heffner has taking it to the next level, so has the porn indurstry. You are throwing out the baby with the bath water here brother. You are consistently giving bad examples. Brother you are tripping in the highest form. You say “if a christian artist is using similar styles” that is the most illegoical argument I have seen posted today. Hey Blues was cosindered with the same thing and I can tell the difference between that music and the music Mahalia Jacksons sings over. I have seen just as much hooping and hollering in a Georgia Mass Choir as I would a typical secular blues song. Once again you guys are saying “I don’t like it” so you say it is sinful. What about Quartet Music. You think Gospel singers were the first Quartet groups? Nope they were not. Once again please tell me what you listen to and I promise you I can rip it apart. Unless you listen to hymns where their is nothing but an Orchestra or Acappela. Your weak and my weak may not be the same. Paul says in Romans that “the one who doesn’t eat meat should prevent his brother nor should the brother who does eat the one who doesn’t”.
I responded to your question about that in a follow-up comment above, did you not get it?
Maybe I missed it, but no, I didn’t.
Well I can’t recall every word of what I said, but basically I first mentioned that I feel speaking about things we do that are not right is good if we are doing it to explain how we got beyond it or why it is wrong, but to me just offering a list is counterproductive and might tempt others to check the stuff out.
Regarding:
I said it depends on the culture.
For our culture here in America, Hip Hop is a bad choice, when we’ve been so effective with a separate sound that has been associated with gospel. The gospel sound here, might sound like something done by a witch doctor in some tribal area. There, do something different for the region. Using Hip Hop here creates temptation and divisions. Our older brothers and sisters can’t stand the stuff. Better to use a form we all agree on.
Just as folks in some tribal areas have no problem with less clothing, that is what is normal for their culture and modesty there is not the same as modesty in America. Despite Mr. Woods’ claims I’m not trying to put them in a long robe and I don’t see what I do as superior.
What would be a “separate” sound differs from culture to culture. Just as “modesty” is not defined the same in every culture.
(MN: In our culture, what is a separate sound? Is a sound like the Archies singing “Sugar Sugar” separate? Or how about Black Sabbath doing their evil sounding rendition of “Iron Man”? Or maybe Frank Sinatra (the world’s greatest singer) and “Come Fly With Me”? Are these separate in our culture? What makes them not as opposed to “I’ll Fly Away?” or “Jesus On My Mainline”? What’s the difference between Bachman Turner Overdrive and some bozo performing on TBN or in a Bobby Jones “gathering”?)
See my response to Calvin Taylor below. Makes me wish I kept quite till he offered a comment
.
Mr. Woods, am african and i can tell you for a fact that we dont paint our faces and dance for the Lord. Just taught i’d let you know. Actually most of the face paintings done in parts of Africa are towards the traditional worshiping of [pagan gods and you will agree with me that that culture SHOULD NOT be used to worship God.That said, there is no two ways to it, christians need to change every aspect of their lives to follow Christ. Remember we are to deny ourselves, pick up the cross and follow Christ. The culture of hiphop, like almost every other culture, glorifies man. Yes people have different cultures, etc. and we gotta reach people but we dont have to compromise the truth just to reach them. Anything that involves self glorification is sin. Question.. To reach out or minister to pagans do you have to bow down to their gods? No. well it is part of their culture to do that right? I personally don’t think there is anything like holy hiphop. Its either hiphop or holy, the two can’t come together. The lyrics of some so called hiphop tracks are written to God but what do they do in their music videos? dont they do the same things as the ‘non holy’ hiphoppers?
The problem is this in not true in totality. Maybe you don’t but their are those who do. I have seen it with my own eyes. I will provide the nations as soon as I can. Your question is a strawman and the answer is no. We are to never bow down and worship other Gods; however, their are parts of culture that are not sinful in of themselves. What part of denying yourself are you talking about Sel? Are hiphoppers not surrending to God. Most have been on world mission trips while the majority of American Christians stay at home in their safe pews. What about faithfulness to learning the scriptures? These brothers have inner city missions that would make the churh of Acts blush! How about faithfulness in lifestyles? We hold each other accountable, admonish and exhort each other daily. We are faithful to our wives, we love and disciple our children, we do inner city evangelism, and not only that we read the bible, most have been to seminary (DTS, and others to be exact), and are teaching the scriptures daily. So what about that is not denying ourselves? Should we put on suits and khakis? Is this what you mean. Maybe we should put on some Mississippi Mass and go in our prayer closets. Nope that is not what we are doing, we are in the thick of battle, holding it down for the Lord in humility, knowing that we were lost once before and the only thing that saved us was The Supernatural power of the Lord. We pray, fast, study our bibles, give to the needy and our church, serve in ministries, and love our neighbors. Is this not what we are called to do Sel? And furthermore the two aren’t mutually exclusive. You can have both Hip Hop and the Lord. Nope they are not doing the same things! No women in small clothes, no guns or alchohol, no fancy cars and jewelry, no beat downs, no glorifying of self only our Glorious Lord. So hopes that answers your questions let me know if you have anything further. By the way what type of Gospel music do you listen to? The Canton Spiritual, Shirley Ceaser, Donnie McClurkin (and all his tongue talking), Yolonda Adams and her small shirts, Mary Mary, Kirk? Who? And once again give me a verse or gracefully bow out!
Sel, I think you just opened some eyes here with that comment. To actually think that people on the African continent who accept Jesus don’t act like people who worship idols. I think this is shocking information for some folks here, but it’s what we are instructed to do in scripture.
If you know that meat was used for idols don’t eat it for your brothers sake and for conscious sake. Otherwise, eat all the meat without question.
Can’t use that here IC. This is a bad application of the weaker brother arguenment and as intelligent as you are you know it.
Good catch, Sel. I’m African too and I flipped out when I read that comment.
As an example, in my ethnic community, women tattoo their faces as a way of expressing love and devotion to the traditional god. When we received the Gospel, the women did not continue tattooing their faces as a way of expressing love and devotion to Jehovah God, they stopped tattoing their faces. We still keep our cultural practices but we had to cease those that were specifically geared at expressing reverence to this traditional god.
Okay Kumbaff. I am going to prove you wrong. I know of a church called the Covenant here in Texas and every year they perform interpative dances in their native culture but glorify the Lord with it. So you are not being fully honest. I was at a Somoan wedding where the same was done. So you are grossly incorrect Sir. Sorry.
Mr. Woods, 2 actual Africans have refuted your claims. You’ll have to provide some incredibly solid proof at this point if you wish for anyone (well at least me and these 2 guys) to believe what you are saying regarding…anything you’re saying.
And
boastingtalking about putting churches in Acts to shame. I don’t know which you’re talking about, but you’re seriously sounding like someone that is embellishing things a bit.I don’t know when we got in to the hip hop debate either Lawrence. (MN: I Pulled us into it, just like most discussion. The posting was specfically about Hip Hop with hooks to tie in a bunch of other considerations. )
Deb–do your research on the hip hop arguments before making dogmatic statements about hip hop. First check out your boy Craige Lewis. His whole extra Biblical testimony about how God revealed this hip-hop demon as he would say is faulty. Craige is far from being theologically sound. I like rap a little, I am 26 years old by the way, and this whole argument may just be a cultural gap. For instance Flame, Ambassador and others have been to Seminary and rap about things like Exegesis, Hermenutics, Hypostatic Union, and etc. These are things that Craige probably does not know much about. Since most of these so called people are called of God and literally despise theological training since God is supposedly speaking to them with a audible voice. Check out where Craige attends church and what they believe, Mr. Woods should be able to supply that for you (his Church). What the 40+ crowd considers gospel-from origin was started in the blues house not the church and on top of that most likely the people the 40+ crowd listen to are from the GMWA (******* ***** ****** ******) camp. I sing and used to be heavy into quartet gospel. Point blank I think that all this music stuff is 95% entertainment and does not prompt anyone to respond to the Gospel foreal, but I do not want to get into a Election debate because that could get messy. Music is not needed for the gospel of Christ to be preached in accuracy, just ask Jesus the Christ or the Apostles.
I do not have cable nor do I want it.
Last movie–DreamGirls
Sitcoms-I do not watch much because they have a purpose and that is to keep people stupid and trapped into the things of this wicked world.- I like Way of the Master.
In Christ
Where in the Bible did Jesus or his boys use music to reach the lost? When God gave the 5 things that would help His people where was music? We just can’t take things from the world polish it up and call it holy and try to throw it up to God!!! If you where a hip hopper when u wasn’t saved how can u be a holy hip hopper??? What happen to becoming a new creature or the renewing of one’s mind? You are using carnal means of reaching the lost when Christ told us how to reach the lost lift Him up!!! And the HOly Spirit will do the rest! We have to live right, live what we preach, walk right in front of them and God will do the rest!!!!! And people take that whole become things to all men ALL OUT OF CONTEXT!!!!! If i’m talking to a pothead will i smoke pot to be “relevant” or drink a brew to make them feel more comfortable about themselves? No if i’m witnessing to younger dude then I might have to be that older brother or father figure. That’s what it means becoming all things to men! I have no problem with “holy hip-hop” being used as entainment but to reach the lost there’s no biblical example of using music and beats to reach the lost!!
What if Johnathan Edwards used poetry to preach “Sinners in the hands of an Angry God”? Would that be sinful and would it not have been a good sermon? The answer is probably no. So what if he put a beat to it, would it then become sinful? No again? So what makes music sinful? The lyrics behind them right? I have by no menas taken the verse out of context. I used it correctly. I never said sin to become relevant that is lie and you know it. You aren’t fighting fair or maybe you misread something. God hates sin and so do we. Our job is to reconcile the sinner to God through the preaching of the Gospel. So let me ask a question. What if my Church threw a BBQ in the inner city to reach the community their? Jesus never told us to throw any BBQ’s did he? What if I started a tutor program to build a relationship with the teens in my area, with the goal to preach the Gospel to them. Jesus never told me to do that either. How about this one. Throw a revival. From what you all are saying the the church is not meant to evangelize would be go totally opposite to church history. Look at the revivals througout history and tell me they were not evangelistic. You would be wrong. What I see here again is a lack of studying. I bet the majority of the peopel responding here hasn’t shared their faith in the last month, been on any type of missionary trips, never gave up their Christmas or Thanksgiving to spend it with the poor, nor have they shared the Gospel with their neighbors, never invited the poor over to their hours to introduce them to the Lord or anything else. Look bro, the same guys your are bashing are the same ones ministering to the youth. One of the biggest failures in the church is to successfully pass down the Gospel message. Most of our grandparents are Christians but most of our generation isn’t. Want to know why, because they were so comfortable sitting in pews and pointing their fingers at the lost. Once again we are out here on a daily basis holding it down. Loving people in the suburbs and in the inner city.
Jonathan Edwards message was preached in a serious monotone manner so as not to get anyone excited on the way the message was delivered. He wanted everyone to focus on the words and examine them without other things floating around in their heads.
There is nothing wrong with Christian rap, but we do not need the culture of hip hop to preach to the youth. The Word of God will draw them or nothing will.
Mr. Woods, you’re doing more damage for your position.
What you are proposing would be the equivalent of a Christian Charleston stepping party to minister to people about Christ in the 1920’s, but it never happened. Because ministry does not have to conform to the entertainment desires of the world. To do so results in people who claim conversion, but really came to enjoy the party, or BBQ. Nobody has a problem with you helping a kid to read or feeding people who are actually in need, but I’ve been to several of these “events” churches sponsor where they have entertainment and food. Everybody enjoys the entertainment for the entertainment value, eats the food and goes home. The draw and focus is usually not actually about ministry.
Since people love to shop, why not have the moneychangers come in for a service and sell stuff? You could minister after the sales. Jesus never told us to do it, but if you’re about numbers and draw tactics, I’m sure you and Rick Warren could do some work together.
I’m coming close to laughing at the “I’m doing this and that and none of you do a thing” posture.
If you’re so modest, I’m waiting to see it.
Drop all the rap, just offer ministry and see who sticks around. That will let you know who is serious and not just hanging around for the entertainment or dreams of a music deal.
Calvin Taylor, once again you make an excellent point. We use song among each other as saints, but nowhere are we instructed to utilize music to reach the lost.
Oh my, we actually have to speak to them and ensure they understand, instead of wooing them with a melody
.
Nowhere in scripture are we prohibited either. Once again I will ask where is the line drawn in what I can use to reach the lost. Anybody know? If so please tell me. Jesus never puts parameters on us other than not sinning. We are to reach the lost that is it. Unless you can show me otherwise. Especially you IC, you are Sola Scriptura dude right?
1)
Last King of Scotland, I thought it was going to be different
Happy Feet
Cars
Incredibles
Saved, thought it was something different or the Movie with Antonio Banderas teaching Ballroom dancing.
2)
Heroes
Smallville
Apprentice
Dancing with the stars
Class of 3000
I like ballroom Dancing.
Hey Mel, I’m at my dad’s house so don’t trip off of the different source for my usual comments. Mr. Woods seems basically to say that “wrong is wrong” and I agree. However, we can not justify wrong with wrong. If so-called Christian rap is wrong, or if watching certain television programs is wrong, then we can not justify either by pointing to the other. We also must distinguish between entertainment and evangelism. Entertainment is not required in the gathering of believers we call the “church” or “house of God”. Evangelism is supposed to be done outside of these gatherings. The church is for equipping the saints to go out and evangelize and defend the faith. Again, I say that NO FORM OF MUSIC IS NECESSARY FOR THIS TASK. When you make it necessary, you cheapen or underestimate the gospel and the Spirit of God. The video featuring Bishop Ellis is evident that music is a distraction, and at times, misdirection from what is being said. Could you imagine that so-called sermon being preached without the organ in the background? Can we get back to biblical gatherings centered on the Word of God for the edification of the Body of Christ? I do believe that David is an example of the Spirit of God in music (Saul would attest to that), however, the depraved need the preached Word, not singing, rapping, praise dancing, drama, etc. (Romans 10:13-17) The church needs order. (I Corinthians 14:26-40)
You all sound a bit weird to me, just because a person is saved doesnt mean they cant watch a non-chrisian movie. Infact I dont see anything wrong with listening to secular music as long as the lyrics are good. (MN: What you are saying is exactly the issue here. Are the lyrics to “Me and Mrs. Jones” “good”? How about the lyrics to “You Are the Suhshine of My Life”? All we’re really doing here is looking at the question of spirituality and how it relates to Hip Hop. Since Hip Hop is such a hot button issue, we’re approaching from the side, so to speak. Some say “Hip Hop Bad!” Others say “Hip Hop Good!” Why do those who say it’s bad say so and why do those who say it’s good say that? It may seem like a trivial pursuit, but I can guarantee you it’s not. For instance, I’m sure you believe prono movies to be bad (I hope) and most Shirley Temple movies to be good. Where does anything less than Shirley temple cross the line to “bad”? Is “Kill Bill” bad? How about “Pulp Fiction.” How about “Master and Commander on the Far Side of the World”, or Gladiator? Or the Lord of the Rings series? Or Star Wars, or … What makes a movie/song/television program “bad”? Is it purely individual? Is there an objective standard? )
You guys seem to make to much out of nothing. I watch all kinds of movies and look at all kinds of shows on tv christian and non and at the end of the day, I still love God. Different people are in different places in their walks so DO NOT JUDGE.
(MN: So you’re saying my maturity level determines what’s acceptable to God and what is healthy for my growth and what is not? I don’t think you really mean that. )
Of course there are things that we should not watch on television, and I agree as I have taken inventory of the things I have been watching most recently. I think, however, the conversation is being skewed here. Christian hip hop, to paraphrase G Craige, is Christian booty shaking, a concept that makes absolutely no sense. The concept is like G Craige rightly pointed out, Christian Goth. Goth is a culture that many young people have become involved with over the past decade. It is growing as we speak. Will God use that culture based on veneration of all things dead to redeem them? The problem is this: all things are lawful but all things are not expedient. On the one hand, we Christians must be seperate from the world. Meaning that we should not participate in things that destroy our faith. On the other, we cannot begin to start saying that we must reject everything. For example, watching the discovery channel is problematic because it promotes Atheism and the destruction of the Bible. Yet, I dont think you would find anything wrong with watching that network. All they do is make attempts to take away Christian faith. Reading secular philosophy has lead many Christians towards unbelief and we do not think there is a problem there. If we accept the logic you seem to propose, we will not be able to participate in anything. But if we accept the logic in the opposite direction then we will have to accept everything. Your framework is inherently flawed. Hip hop should be judged for what it is. A system that wants to bring rebellion into our youth. Akin to the Discovery Channel and folks like Neitzcthe (mispelled) and Bertrand Russell, the impetus was the same. What all of these have brought is generations of confusion. So we must be careful about all of them. I wanted to mention an example. Young Dirty, Bishop Long’s son, is a prominent holy hiphopper who has a radio show. On his show, he plays rappers like 50 cent, Game, and others. Of course, he plays the edited versions of their albums but that doesnt help the fact that he chose to play these artists in the first place. Holy hiphoppers all over the place want to do the same. They want to bring the worlds music into the assembly of the saints. Why do we want it? God doesnt. And, as I have thought long and hard about TV, I think there are many movies we do not need to see. But that doesnt mean that the story of good triumphing over evil is one that should not be told or seen by a Christian. This is what some movies will tell us. This is not what hip hop (booty shaking) tells us. Finally, I want to make the point that I like rap, a style of music. I do not like the culture of hip hop.
All black music is booty shaking brother. Don’t just throw hip hop in their. The Juke Joints was full of music that has the same sound that those you may prefer have. Furthermore Ce Ce, Yolanda Adams, Commission, all sound like the typical 80’s music also.
thats exactly what I mean, when I first came to christ I didnt automatically stop going to clubs and smoking and drinking, it was a gradual process of conviction from the Holy Spirit over a period of time, and I am still growing, DO you make all the right decisions in your walk with God. Did you automatically come to the knowledge of God on the very day you were saved. Now Im really going to get punished on this, but I like hip-hop, christian and non christian, NAS is one of the best lyricist there is, does that make me bound for hell because I like NAS
(MN: Dana, no one is condemning anyone else. We are discussing the issues and seeing what, based on our understanding of scripture, we should do. That’s actually a part of Christian fellowship. What is the point of fellowship, how can iron sharpen iron if no stands are taken. How do you decide on the stand without appealing to Scripture? )
I would also like to say that since we hold ministers (at least on this site) to the biblical standard, then we need to clarify whether or not these other forms of media are indeed ministry. If so, then they also need to be held to the biblical standard. If they are merely entertainment then I have a question? When the lyrics of a song, the plot of a movie, or the theme of a sitcom is guilty of promoting the sins described in Romans 1:29-31, then are those that entertain themselves with these guilty of “knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, BUT HAVE PLEASURE IN THEM THAT DO THEM.”? Romans 1:32 Having pleasure in them is the same as being entertained by them. I was honest about my viewing and if it was shown to me that I was guilty of sin by being entertained by any of those movies or programs, then I would stop watching them, not try and justify it by pointing to anothers sin. Let’s be real. Suggesting that Christians be MORE SELECTIVE is a good thing, not legalistic. Not all so-called Christian Hip Hop or Christian rap is bad, as Mr. Woods demonstrated with the above lyric. This would also apply to secular entertainment. However, we have been instructed on what to think on by the bible.(Philippians 4:8-9). Whatever you feed your mind is what you will think on just like a computer. Garbage in, garbage out! Let us watch as well as pray that we enter not into temptation. We have the Cross Movement but we also have the group that did “Money Comin’”. We have John MacArthur but we also have Creflo Dollar. Philippians 2:12-15!!! Just my two cents…or three. I lost count. LOL!!!
I agree……..Christian Hip-Hop is entertainment, not worship. So is Southern Gospel, Contemporary Christian, and God Metal. Subject it to the standards of entertainment, but don’t elevate it to worship. It isn’t.
Paul( the apostle) was writing to the corinthian church about certain aspects of marriage and he comes to a point where he sais i have no commandment from God, but i speak by the spirit. It is amazing to me that christians in 2007 lack the spiritual fortitude to spiritually decipher what is right or wrong. If we argue the point about if it is actually in the word we give credability to every person that’s ever told me, where in the bible it say i can’t drink my alcohol?, show me that in scripture. What Jesus says is let this mind that is in me, be in you. Some things i will never have or will we ever find a direct scripture on. But since i strive to have the mind of Christ, some things just don’t sit right with our spirits(and christian rap/holy hip hop is one). Why are we so afraid of the spirit. Just cause a few nutso’s claim the holy ghost when they babel in tongues, or when they wave their arms and half the people in the coliseum get slain in the spirit, we have decided to throw the baby out with the bath water. Wether it’s holy hip hop, tv shows or movies, we must trust the spirit to guide us, or if not everything that paul taught in leu of actual words from God, we must extract for the bible, as just his carnal opinion.
Errrrrrrrr………can’t for the LIFE of me think of a situation in 2007 that is not covered in the Bible. Really can’t.
What is not covered explicitly is covered in principle and example. No one’s “afraid of the Spirit” here. The Spirit has COVERED all we need for life and Godliness in the Bible. Nowhere do I find an admonition to order my walk by “what sits right with my spirit.”
I’m called to TEST the spirits………….ALL spirits……..including my own by Scripture.
1Jo 3:24 ¶ And he that keepeth his commandments (found in the Word) dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
1Jo 4:1 ¶ Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
There is the progression………He that keepeth the commandments of Christ (the Word) is in Christ. The Spirit is the evidence that we are indeed dwelling in Christ and therefore the Word we believed is of God.
But how do we TEST any spirit encountered?? By comparing it to the Word which through faith PLACED us into Christ to begin with.
If the spirit we are testing does NOT comport with the Word of God, then that word CANNOT be the Word which puts one in Christ, therefore the spirit you are testing is false.
Nothing about determining the Truth by searching (with our darkened hearts and fallen nature and finite knowledge) what “sits right” with us.
Want to know the mind of Christ?? Listen to His Words. When challenged He answered with Scripture.
Survey Question #1 -
Movies:
1. Happy Feet
2. The Lost City
3. Daddy Day Care
4. Holiday Heart
5. An Inconvenient Truth
Survey Question #2 -
1. Run’s House - reality show about Rev. Run, formerly of rap group Run DMC, and his wife and 5 kids.
2. American Idol - contestants compete for a recording contract
3. The Apprentice - Donald Trump’s reality show in which contestants compete to be his “apprentice” and oversee one of his construction projects.
4. Judge Alex - a small claims court show
5. Ugly Betty - comedy/drama about an eccentric and unique Hispanic young lady takes a job at a high fashion magazine and balances work, family, and the fact that she doesn’t fit the high fashion mold.
This will be probably be my last comment on this one. I really wish that we all could come to an agreement that though you may not like it, Hip Hop can still glorify God just like any other form of music. But we probably can’t. With that said I love you all and by no means wish to cause division. Just do me a favor, if you see a young guy with a hat on and baggy jeans and boots, in the church don’t automatically write him off as a heathen (as IC said). We love the Lord. I happen to work in Corporate America, have a degree, been married for nine years and am faithful to my wife. I evangelize on a weekly basis (at least) I spend my weekend discipling other men and holding them accountable. I love serving the Body of Christ, I willfuly and humbly submit to my pastor, I give to the needy, and love my neighbor. Not only that I spend a lot of time in the scriptures learning my God and finding ways to relate him to others. I have two sons and I love them and discipline them, and disciple them. I respect my parents (lost my mother to drugs, but my grandmother raised me), and honor my elders (Christian or not). So please don’t throw us into a category with 50 Cent, Biggie, Tupac and other men who hate God because we and I don’t. Sorry that we couldn’t agree, hopefully my standard of dress, and use of slang will not bother you, because stripped of all that I am a product of God’s grace by no doing of my own, although I am extremely grateful that he would choose me. I just pray that I can be a vessel for his use and anything that is not like him would be stripped (rather you think that is hip hop or not) from me so that he can shine more brightly in my life. I appreciate the dialogue. I realize that this battle isn’t just with Craig G but I see their are so many others who hate what we do.
Mr. Woods says:
So long as you use the form that they use, you’ll spend much time saying that. Which is why you’d do better to abandon it and simply minister the Gospel of Jesus Christ without it. Those who refuse to hear you because you don’t fulfill their desired entertainment format are not trying to hear you because you talk about Jesus.