So, the Independent Conservative website is indeed by the same person who posts here to regularly. I’d asked him that question earlier in one of my other comments I posted. Congratulations to you on that website of yours. I have that site as well as this site saved in my Favorites and I’ve also subscribed to both your RSS feeds. It’s good night this time for real.

the folks HE was addressing died

And He told them they would be killed.

It’s really not that complicated, but made so by those who attempt to wrest these visible “signs” into invisible spiritual events.

And, no Mike, I’m not interested in continuing the discussion via eMail. I’ve heard the arguments from all sides for 30 years.

Blessings!!

(MN: I still really don’t want to go down this road. )

To use your definition, all of the prophecies Jesus cited MUST have been fulfilled before 70AD. They were not, as an upcoming post (which I wrote earleir but hasn’t appeareed yet) will show.

Those who propose your scenario just spiritualize away Jesus’ clear Words so that they won’t have to face the obvious fact that those prophesies DID NOT come to pass before that group of people died.

Let’s remember that the disciples were asking for SIGNS. Something to be OBSERVED. Yet, you spiritualize the prophesies away, propound a secret return of Christ (in violation of His specific Words), and rob the disciples of the VISIBLE signs they specifically ASKED Jesus to give.

Since those prophesies were NOT fulfilled before 70AD (unless you wish them away by destroying them as signs that would be observable) the word generation CANNOT be defined as you prefer, since it renders Jesus a false prophet along the lines of Kim Clement or Benny Hinn.

Nation or race fits the context and leaves the omniscience of Christ intact. Let’s not play games with His words and make the return “invisible”, and the fulfillment of His Words as “spiritual” when the disciples asked Him for SIGNS which could be observed.

Now…………I said earlier that I think it’s a mistake to be drawn from the target and purpose of this website into eschatology. It’s not why we’re here, and Melvin has already noted that he doesn’t wish to go this route. Let’s agree to disagree as brothers, and get back to the business of the site, OK??

Melvin has spoken his wishes on the subject, and we are here as his guests. Let’s respect his wishes and keep our focus.

Thank you brother………..I will not respond further on the issue, but I look forward to getting to know you as we go about the business of this forum. Blessings!!!

Therefore, the context (being that we are hearing from the omniscient Son of God) demands that we use “race”, or we must explain why God was so clearly mistaken.

Let’s look at the prophesies, and put them in the context of 70AD and see if they all came to pass.

Mat 24:3 - 7 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

(Nothing in antiquity gives even a hint of increased or more intense famines, pestilences, or earthquakes in the 37 years between Jesus’ Words here and 70AD when the Romans came……..and the ancient writers recorded such things faithfully)

Mat 24:8, 9 All these [are] the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.

(OK, when in those 37 years were all nations hating the Jews because of Jesus?? The Romans didn’t come because of Jesus. All nations clearly didn’t hate them because of Jesus since no one outside of Palestine had even HEARD of Him)

Mat 24:10 - 13 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

(No unusual records of this in Palestine either)

And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

(Where is “the end” here?? 70AD is “the end”??)

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

(Nope)

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

(Let he who readeth understand. The Abomination refers to the defilement of the Temple by Antiochus Epiphanes, when he slaughtered a pig on the altar to Zeus. Nothing even remotely reflective of this occurred in 70AD. Also, the Abomination is a reference to Dan 9, where the “Prince that shall come” would confirm a covenant for 7 years, THEN destroy the Temple. Didn’t happen)

Mat 24:16 -21 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

(Nope………70AD is clearly not the greatest tribulation the Jews ever experienced. About 1 million Jews died in 70AD. We have over 6 million just in WWII alone.)

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

(OK………what weapon did the Romans possess in 70AD that could have destroyed “all flesh”?? How were those days shortened in 70AD, so that if they were NOT shortened, NO FLESH would have been saved??)

Mat 24:23 - 27 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before.Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers; believe [it] not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

(Did the coming of the Son of Man……which you contend occurred in 70AD…….fit these parameters?? Jesus PLAINLY says here that His coming WOULD NOT BE SECRET, yet in direct contradiction to that we must believe He came in secret in 70AD)

Mat 24:28 - 30 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

(Nope………all the tribes of the earth didn’t mourn over Christ in 70AD, and no one saw Him coming in power and great glory)

Mat 24:31 - 35 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer [is] nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

(Well, all those things did not come to pass before that group of people died, therefore to interpret “generations” as a group of concurrent people in that context means Jesus either lied, or was mistaken.)

See: Numbers 14:26-35

Standing on the Sholders of Thayer’s Greek English Lexicon of the NT: “Genea” is defind as ” the whole multitude of men living at the same time?

Challenge # 1: Get out your concordance and look up every New Testament occurrence of the word “generation” and see if it ever means “race” in any other context

(MN: I really don’t want to chase this around. )

The primary Greek definition for “generation” is not a group of people living contemporaneously, but is defined as a particular “race” of people.

Jesus just got through telling the Disciples about the coming destruction of both Israel as a nation and the Temple, then He reassured them that these events would NOT result in the desired annhilation of the Jewish people by the Romans.

This generation (race) shall not pass away (despite the coming destruction)until ALL these things (the end-time scenario He just advanced) come to pass.

It’s never better to take a secondary definition (generation as a group of living persons), ignoring the primary definition (generation meaning a race of people) unless the context demands it.

In this case the context demands the primary definition, because all the things that Jesus foretold DID NOT come to pass before that group of living people died off.

Therefore, either Jesus was wrong about what would occur before those folks died, or the context demands that the primary definition of generation as “race” is the correct one, leaving His Omniscience intact.

I told her, that as a son I NEVER tell anyone that I’m my father or that they see my father when they see me and my kids better not either.

Of course she was ready to move on to the next Bible verse after that .

I don’t even recall what lame excuse she used when I read the first few verses of John 1 to her.

In Matt 24:34 Jesus said “Truly (stating a fact) I (Jesus) say to you (the people he’s talking to), this (the one nearer or more immediately under observation or discussion) generation (a group of individuals born and living contemporaneously) will not pass away until all these things take place.

They were not given the “day” or the “hour”
but they were given a time frame.

Other then that, bullseye

Thank God I was ready enough empty handed the first time. But I figured I’d grab some stuff too. I told her since she wanted to ARM-UP that I wanted to gather some arms myself. Which she was OK with.

I was pointing her to scripture that showed her Jesus is God as in part of a triune Godhead. Every verse I hit her with she claimed I either was not reading it properly or some interpretation would say otherwise, even when I cited verses that had the same words in her own Bible.

Basically we had to end because she had people waiting for her in her car. She claimed she had been in her organization longer than I’ve been in my faith. I asked her how long she was in their organization (I resisted using the word CULT) and she said 30 years, I responded by telling her I have been a Christian for 25 years, so although I’m just in my 30’s I’ve been at this a fairly long time myself. She appeared to be in her 50s.

She read with me MANY instances where Jesus is said to be God with a capital “G” and she still refused to see that there is no “level” of who God is. She still held to her feelings that Jesus is some kind of lesser “god”. Amazing.

I showed her the same with the Holy Spirit, she still would not acknowledge the truth.

She tried to run down Colossians 1:15, to claim Jesus was somehow lesser than the Father and I immediately instructed her to the next chapter to read Colossians 2:9. Still she did not get it.

She tried the old “the word trinity is not in the Bible” line. (I almost wanted ask her if she was TD Jakes when she pulled out that one.) I responded by telling her it’s proven by definition and I’m showing you the scripture that proves it right now. Of course anything I showed her she tried to somehow refuse by reduction.

And she tried to imply that WE are gods of a sort and I shot that down so fast because we have none of the abilities of any part of the Trinity, so she ran from that point fast. And she learned I’m fully up to speed on how the term “god” was used in the past versus what it means to us today.

I asked her about her organizations MANY failed attempts to predict the end of the world, when it is a date no man knows. She acted like there were just people in her group who made mistakes. She denied it was official instruction from her group’s leaders. She acted like all the people that sold everything were just some small band of mistaken folks. The founder of the cult Russell was the first to do it, so it’s kind of hard to claim it was some unsanctioned teaching in their group, but she did anyway.

The funnest part of it all, is when she tried to describe the relationship of Jesus and the Father like a marriage. And so I was like “so you see 2 in marriage can be 1, but you fail to see that 3 are 1″? And she could only shake her head as I used her own example to prove my point .

Oh well, I could not get her to admit errors in her group’s doctrine, but I’m obviously a little different from the others she’s met today. If a whole block of folks could/would give them a Bible beating it might help them realize the truth.

She said she might return again in the future, I told her that’s fine. I’ll have more to knock her over the head with then .

1. Hey what is your postion on abortion and what is Barack’s?

2. Hey what do you think about a biblical view on marriage? What is Barrack’s?

3. Hey what has Barrack done for black folks in Illinois besides grease their ears? And what do you think he is going to do for “us”?

Disclaimer:By the way Melvin I am not pushing a political agenda here

Would anybody like to guess what the persons answers were? You may have guessed it he pulled the infamous “Separation of Church and State” Card on me. WOW! By the way this individual is a very close friend. I will direct him to these blogs.

(MN: Why do I feel as though I am trying to herd cats? )