Good thing (removing the link) Melvin. I may need help with this. Something just is not right.

I could be wrong, but it just doesn’t appear proper with what I saw or heard.

I don’t think “having” things was the real issue. It is how people view those things compared to God…how they obtained those things…how they flaunt those things

Should we really care about what people think if I drive a certain car or live in a certain place if what I have was obtained legally.Is it wrong for someone to invest money and then spend the gains as he is lead.Tweet how does a person “view those things compared to God”.

See the recommendation given in 1 Timothy 6:7-10. The idea is to be content with your basic needs (not wants) met.

And to the rich (which might include almost every American, even some who feel they are poor) 1 Timothy 6:17-19 applies. Give freely and store up for yourself in Heaven.

There really is an inverse relationship many refuse to admit, between storing for yourself here versus storing for yourself in Heaven. And at this point I give my usual disclaimer of personal imperfection . Just the same I have to tell and strive to live the truth. I may not be perfect, but I’m not going to lie or twist the scriptures to satisfy my own flesh.

This does not mean you forsake care for your family, you must care for them before giving to others, but the apostles sometimes enacted economic systems I KNOW folks don’t want to admit really happened. But they did it freely, it was not some sort of government mandate. They just agreed to do it and anyone could have opted out. It was only a problem when Ananias and Sapphira tried to lie about their intentions.

Most people who claim to be “conservative” won’t talk about Acts 4:32-37. And of course the fate of liars is in Acts 5.

Trust me, if God said for me to keep it and not have much concern with giving, I’d be the first to tell you and bury you with scriptures to support that point of view . Melvin would have to shut this place down.

Is it wrong for someone to invest money and then spend the gains as he is lead.

No. We just have to make sure that we are allowing the Lord to “lead” regarding how we handle it. And that involves being honest and true to the instructions given to us.

Let me put it another way. What you gain, you should be happy to share with others if you can.

And then with giving, there’s the whole Matthew 6:1-4 consideration. Don’t let others know how happy you were to give it .

Again, the issue isn’t having money and others knowing about it. This whole pimping thing is about twisting scripture so people will give you money, power, stuff like that.

It really isn’t simply about a fellow being rich. As I have said on more than one occasion, I’m a capitalist. I work hard so I can have nice stuff. But I work, I don’t steal it through the twisting of Scripture.

These men and women get rich by appealing to the fears and ignorance of the very people they say they are shepherding.

O.k. but wasn’t this all about how certain ministries would not let this guy see there books . Is that wrong for them to say no and if so why?

Ed…Were you asking me a question concerning my statement “how do people view these things compared to God?” Were you asking me what I meant?

It means that some people have a higher regard for their “things” than they do God. Tozer talked about this in his book The Pursuit of God….People get so fixiated on the things that they loose focus on God. But if they let go of the things, focus on God, they gain so much more (the example Tozer used was the Abraham-Isaac experience).

ed, also consider this. How can an a sincere God-fearing preacher stand Sunday after Sunday and take tithes, offerings, sacrifice offerings, first fruits, speakers offerings..etc, and not feel convicted that people are being put out of their homes. You have families with young children who are not eating and getting heat and lights cut off because they are giving their bill money to the church so that the preacher can get “broke-off”. Honestly, a church doesn’t need a $3 million dollar charter bus, or a $20 million dollar jet to preach the gospel. The prophets and apostles during those days traveled by foot or boat from town to town to reach souls. I think the whole “I want to be blessed, so i can bless others” excuse, is sometimes nothing but a cloak for the covetousness in their hearts. Why can’t a person be content by making a good honest living with out having to decieve people to get money?

IC……..I hope you’re not thinking that the Apostles advocated a communist type of economic system. What they did there they did of necessity, not Biblical mandate. They were being squeezed financially and socially as the reaction of the Jews to their confession of Christ cost them livelihoods and business.

The Bible from cover to cover however advocates private property (every man under his own vine and his own fig tree), land ownership in perpetuity (see the Year of Jubilee), and freedom of financial gain and disbursement (encouragement to prosper through financial wisdom, and the keeping of about 70% of earnings along with the presence of giving as a freewill offering) .

Don’t you agree??

GaryV, first let me say you did a good job with Matthew 24.

Regarding Acts 4:32-37, I was not saying they wished for communism at all. Which is why I mentioned there was no mandate and it was something they did freely with anyone being allowed to opt-out if they desired.

Now keep in mind, every Communist on earth will offer you financial justification for their desired system because of a “financial squeeze”. All Communists feel there is one, no matter where they live and would like to see global Communism. What the Apostles enacted was a Private Christian Commune. They were working to keep themselves fed, not trying to bring equity with themselves and those who hated them. Which is why those who hated them were not part of that commune, although I’m sure they would have helped any hungry person that came their way get a meal. It was about them helping level things amongst themselves for their own longevity as a group.

Communists love to jump on Acts 4:32-37 and I bring it up in an effort to acknowledge it happened, but also attempt to clarify what it was. They felt among themselves that they should freely help one another. Unlike Communism and government styled wealth redistribution programs, which move money via government force. I don’t feel using force of government to redistribute wealth is at all Christian. God wishes for those who desire to give to do so freely and those who do not wish to give have the option not to give.

Now that does not mean that I don’t think government should collect taxes or provide anything. I’m just saying that the Bible does not justify Communism. There is plenty of Biblical justification for government’s role and instructions for us to respect it.

And I know some folks feel Christians should not be involved in affairs of government, but if those apostles had the opportunity to vote for government officials that would help keep them from being murdered, I think they’d have made the most of that opportunity. If they could have kept innocent babies from being murdered…(I’m going to stop here.)

this is for Ed, please see:

1John 1:15 ¶ Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

Ed “having things” is not the problam, it’s the Love of “things” that’s the issue

IC, we are in complete agreement!!

Blessings buddy!!

Hi Ed!!! Brother, the failure to open their books is indeed a serious issue.

1Ti 3:1 This [is] a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop (or Pastor in the modern parlance), he desireth a good work.
1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless (How are we to know if they are blameless unless they are transparent??), the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour (how do we check their behavior with money if they don’t open their books), given to hospitality, apt to teach;
1Ti 3:3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre (How do we ascertain that unless we can see how the money they handle is disbursed, and see how much they keep??); but patient, not a brawler, not covetous (We can’t see covetousness unlless we see how the money is spent and how they live) ;
1Ti 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
1Ti 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
1Ti 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
1Ti 3:7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without (Those that are without the church consider most preachers crooks because of their abuse of money and their secretive handling of it); lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
1Ti 3:8 Likewise [must] the deacons [be] grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre (here again, how will we know??);
1Ti 3:9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
1Ti 3:10 And let these also first be proved (Or literally “tested”. We are COMMANDED to test them, yet we cannot in finances because of their refusal); then let them use the office of a deacon, being [found] blameless (Can’t find them blameless, since we can’t test them).

Acts 20:35
In all things I have shown you that by working hard in this way we must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’”

We all know it’s better to give than to receive, or at least we like to hear ourselves saying it. I think the Gospel of Jesus and his apostles is so crystal clear on this. It’s why the pimps must turn to the Old Testament for most of their material.

But giving has to be done of a sincere desire to want to do so. Otherwise it’s of no benefit giving at all. See: 2 Corinthians 9:7

No the IRS should not be the sole authority investigating. Because the IRS rules are not the standard for an organization that represents the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Under IRS rules this kind of mess is A-OK.

We are all brothers and sisters in Christ. At least anyone that is a member of the organization should have FULL ACCESS to the financial records. There should be full public disclosure. As Mevin mentioned, they can make a report and they already keep records. It’s true we should do our charity in secret, but they know what they gave and should have no problem making a report that anyone interested and I mean ANYONE can review. They already provide some of this to the IRS and if someone asks, they should not hold back, especially if it is someone helping to keep that organization running.

It is a lack of oversight that helps to produce ALL the corruption we see in Christian organizations today.

So what if somebody uses it against them. If they are doing things right, people who know the truth about how Christians should give, will see the report and know things are being managed well.

The church has suffered too many Judas’ stealing from the treasury to avoid making financial records public. Those records should be true public record. More open than any publicly owned company or our government.

IC your argument is with the wrong person.It is with your goverment that has laws that allow non profit groups to have these liberties.There is a big difference in the laws of disclosure from profit to nonprofit.Trust me, I have already been down this road personally.You may think it is your right to see but the law doesn’t back you up.And almost every denomination and church will take thier stand on these laws no matter if they are right or wrong.

Ed, they should be accountable so that their witness for Christ is not compromised. They are supposed to maintain a good reputation with those outside the Body as well.

The fact is, secrecy breeds suspicion, and brings a reproach.

Oh ,A PS for you Ed!! While I know that the Government doesn’t mandate the opening of the financial records of churches, we are bound by a higher law. That is why organizations have been formed such as the ECFA………..so that churches and Christian charities can assure folks both within and outside of the church that their financial dealings are in accord with the teaching of Scripture.

Those who refuse such accountability must answer the question of what they are afraid to expose.

Of course if government oversight was working well, this thread would not exist. Ministry Watch would not be needed. ABC would have done a story about something else.

(MN: On the other hand, if government oversite were working well, we’d be the Church of America, with no denominations allowed and no truth permitted. )

IC,
So is it with God? Do we need anybody else but God? Dosen’t he see it all.Prov. 15:3 and judge accordingly.

Psa 75:6 For promotion [cometh] neither from the east, nor from the west, nor from the south.
Psa 75:7 But God [is] the judge: he putteth down one, and setteth up another.

Act 5:38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
Act 5:39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

To be clear, I never asked for “MORE” government oversight. I’m just saying it does not work. I am one who feels less government regulation is better.

And I feel they should be open with their books.

If there was no government oversight at all, people might be more likely to feel that they need to see the books instead of trusting godverment to do the job.

Sure, God sees all and if I’m a “brother” in their efforts they should have no problem letting me see the books.

(MN: Especially if you contribute to the efforts the church may make. This seems like an awfully good argument to limit the activities of the church organization to edifying the saints and maybe maintaining a facility in which to do that edification. But even that last one is iffy. )

IC,
Not to sound redundtant but do we need anybody but God according to the scriptures above.

Ed, why are you using scripture that was in reference to an effort to STOP someone from preaching in the name of the Lord, to discuss contributions to a church?

The words of the Pharisee named Gamaliel were related to an effort to murder apostles. And Gamaliel did not believe Jesus is Lord. The Lord that Gamaliel did not believe in used him to provide a means of escape for the apostles. I hope you don’t feel that talk about reviewing financial records is in some way equivalent to murder?

And quite frankly, although you cited scripture, I can’t say I hold the words of a Pharisee in high regard. Islam is spreading across the globe. Sure it will come to nothing, but I’m not going to allow the name of Muhammad to be preached in my house or a building used for the work of the Lord. Reading Acts 5 in full gives the proper context for the verses you cited. You should do the same with the other verses you cited. Read the whole chapter and use the scriptures in proper context.

Evil doers will lose, but that does not mean you keep giving them money in the name of the Lord. And it does not mean you keep funding people who refuse to account for their spending.

Given we are discussing abuse of finances and false teachers, don’t you think scripture such as II Peter 2 is more applicable? I’m sure in things outside of church you check to ensure the money is being applied properly. If you write a check, you do it expecting the bank you’ve entrusted with money to move the funds properly. If I give money to a church, I expect the people managing the funds to use those funds towards good works and advancing the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I think many have been misled with a just give it to those who claim the Lord and ask for money type of mentality. In the parable of the talents, what do you think would have been said to someone who gave their money to somebody they could not hold to account? We see what happened to the man who buried his.

We’ve got to ensure the money is being used as prescribed by the Word of God.

Folks like Eddie Long love to teach that we should not scrutinize church finances. And Eddie Long is a false teacher.

Unfortunately, IC I disagree with you on “Folks like Eddie Long love to teach that we should not scrutinize church finances.”

I believe his church gives accountability semi-annually or annually to the congregation. I may be misunderstanding you. Please correct me if I am.

(MN: Take a look at this and tell me again about accountability. )

The copy of that article on the AJC’s site is no longer freely available. There are identical copies at:
http://www.ncrp.org/AR-082805-AJC.asp

and one sometimes works at http://www.rickross.com/reference/general/general768.html

Anonymous, do you worship with Eddie Long? Have you seen such a report yourself? What do you think of Eddie Long’s claims for Tabernacle Offerings and claiming everyone should be paying tithes plus offerings too? Does this follow scripture applying to Christians? If so, please show it to me.

Do you feel he is following the Word of God regarding his methods for the collection of money?

And if you feel he is not, do you honestly feel that he will honestly spend what he has not honestly obtained?

Preachers should be found to be good stewards. It is required. See: 1 Corinthians 4:1-2

Those doing wrong are to be exposed publicly as an example to others. See: 1 Timothy 5:20

A leader of a church must pass such tests and be blameless. If they fail such tests, then we get to a part folks don’t want to talk about, but it’s true. They MUST be silenced. Titus 1:5-11

So what groups like Ministry Watch are doing is a good thing and they could even go a step further, which they sometimes do, in calling for new leadership. As they’ve done with TBN. They could even get into the false doctrine deeper.

There are plenty of groups that allow any church to submit financial records to them for full scrutiny. It is interesting how some churches refuse.

I’m not pulling anymore punches on this. People should not only flee these pimps, but if they have the leverage, they should kick the pimps out and expose them to the world.

The lack of accountability today horrible and it’s sickening to see efforts to hold pimps to a low standard.

(MN: Of course you realize that if Christianity wasn’t viewed as a chance to hit the holy lotto, there would be no need for outside accountablity. How many of the home churches in China do you think have a problem with the pastor driving a new Benz? Heck, the goal there isn’t to get rich. It is to live a life pleasing to God, and incidentally, to stay alive in order to spread the gospel.

Maybe, just maybe, we need a bit of real persecution here in the states. It would certainly shake loose all the Christian wannabees. )

Nobody wants to see what the followers of Christ really endured. What the great apostles that none of these pimps can touch endured with all that FAITH and all the GIVING and all the SEEDING. We’ve got it really good claiming this faith in America at the moment. But if we want to talk about what could really happen to us on earth, it’s nothing like a Joel Osteen book.

Jesus said none on earth was doing it better than John and we see where John was when Jesus made that statement.

Regarding China, I’ve got some friends who are from China. Unfortunately, life there has kept them from caring much about faith, but one of them was happy when his son accepted Jesus here in America and I think the family sometimes attends church because of the son’s faith.

Anyway, they tell me folks in China are buying cars and cell phones now. So I don’t know what the future holds. But all this “blessing” we enjoy carries a load of responsibility we’ve been failing to uphold.

And unlike us who ain’t gonna dream of taking a missionary trip to a place like China or Saudi Arabia, fools for Christ like Paul might take up the challenge. And what a great fool he was. I think he’d use Osteen’s book as toilet paper!

(MN: Nah. The paper is way too rough. )