Let me first apologize if I misrepresented your position. No it was not an attempt to be prideful or to attest to any personal wisdom. By the way, you think I’m wise? Thanks! I addressed the statements made by these “anonymouses” in a zealous manner because it is statements like these that keep the “water murky” so to speak. The truth is ALWAYS something about which to be zealous. Also the fact that they had little to do with the discussion fueled the zeal. You are very wrong if you believe that testimonies don’t need to be verified. If you were on trial for your life you would want every testimony against you unverified (is that a word?) as you would also want all testimony on your behalf verifiable. Ever heard of an alibi? And no, I was not attempting to defend myself, only the truth. I do not consider myself an apologist, let alone a smash mouth apologist. If you keep complementing me like this, I might get hold to some of that pride you mentioned. LOL! I can indeed be wrong about alot of things. But the fact that I can be does not mean it is reasonable to believe that I am. Therefore, prove me wrong and I will concede. Thanks again Grid and again I truly apologize if I was offensive!

Keep on feeding the stereotype of the ignorant Christian……….sad.

Sadly, I agree that this horse has been beaten past the point of productivity.

Very depressing, to say the least.

“It’s not an insinuation, I am asking the question to hear the responses. Same with me and any of you; How do YOU know who is Godly and who is not?”

To the Word and to the testimony Darryl.

Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

(DTH)Surely you all have this question/answer down to a science as per your critique of everyone preaching the gospel and your revelation(s) from God regarding the written word.

Is the Catholic church Godly?

I’m going there brother.

Fine…………LETS DO GO THERE.

John Wycliffe, Theologian/Translator

* Born: c. 1324
* Birthplace: Hipswell, England
* Died: 31 December 1384
* Best Known As: Church reformer who TRANSLATED THE BIBLE INTO ENGLISH

John Wycliffe (sometimes Wyclif) was a scholar at Oxford who wrote on philosophy and theology. In the 1370s he was condemned for errors and heresies by Popes Gregory XI and Urban VI, but his popularity in England allowed him to escape arrest and persecution by the Catholic Church. In 1380 Wyclif claimed that transubstantiation was not supported by the Bible; he was condemned at Oxford as a heretic and forced to retire. After his retirement he continued to write and is credited with INITIATING THE FIRST FULL ENGLISH TRANSLATION OF THE BIBLE. His followers, called Lollards, are considered forerunners to the PROTESTANT REFORMATION.

(GV) Hmmmmmmmmmmmm………so Wycliff’s fruit is that he OPPOSED the false doctrines of the Catholic church, opposed the false Popes, and translated the Bible into the language of the people to free them from the twin tyrannies of false doctrine and ignorance (a battle we’re still fighting right here).

Care to re-think your inaccurate description of this Godly man as an unGodly Catholic??

In fact , this learned and Godly man was used by the Holy Spirit to spark the movement that was the forerunner of the Reformation. Since you obviously don’t like Catholics, I assume you believe along with us that the Reformation was a movement of the HOLY SPIRIT, and must now admit that the Holy Spirit used this learned, seminary trained, Godly man. In fact, Wycliff is known (by those who don’t despise learning) as The Morning Star of The Reformation.

Tyndale??

Tyndale, Tindal, or Tindale, William (all: tĭn’dəl) , c.1494,1536, English BIBLICAL TRANSLATORtranslator and PROTESTANT (not Catholic) martyr. He was probably ordained shortly before entering (c.1521) the household of Sir John Walsh of Gloucestershire as chaplain and tutor. His sympathy with the new learning led to disputes with the clergy, and he moved to London, determined to translate the New Testament into English. Finding that publication could not be accomplished in England, Tyndale went to Hamburg in 1524, visited Martin Luther in Wittenberg, and at Cologne began (1525) the printing of the New Testament. Interrupted by an injunction, he had the edition completed at Worms. When copies entered England, they were denounced by the bishops and suppressed (1526); Cardinal Wolsey ordered Tyndale seized at Worms. Living in concealment, Tyndale pursued his translation, issuing the Pentateuch (1530) and the Book of Jonah (1536). His work was later the basis of the King James Version of the Bible. His tracts in defense of the principles of the English Reformation, The Obedience of a Christian Man (1528) and The Parable of the Wicked Mammon (1528), were denounced by Sir Thomas More. The Practice of Prelates (1530), condemning the divorce of Henry VIII, drew the wrath of the king. Occupied with revising his translations, Tyndale was seized (1535) in Antwerp and confined in Vilvoorde Castle, near Brussels. His trial ended in condemnation for heresy, and he was strangled at the stake before his body was burned.

(GV) Hmmmmm………another “Catholic”???

So, let’s see………….seminary trained, learned men who hazarded their own lives to bring the Bible into the possession of the masses, that the grip of Roman tyranny might be broken, and that all men might know the Grace of our Lord.

Tynedale was even strangled and burned at the stake, holding fast his confession of faith in Christ, refusing (along with Wycliff) to recant and be spared.

(Darryl)Not a one of us could compare to any of them? I truly beg to differ.

REALLY?!?! How does YOUR fruit compare?? I know MINE doesn’t. I haven’t as yet lost everything for the cause of Christ as Wycliff, nor lost all things as well as my life as Tynedale. Have you??

Ladies and Gentlemen………..I present Exhibit 2A.

It doesn’t take much to find out the history of Wycliffe and Tyndale. Just google it and it’s there. We know from the google’d passages that they were both killed for translating and providing the translated word to laity as it is so stated.

Let’s be real and talk about what it was that so reviled them to separate themselves from the Catholic church. Oh yeah, we can google that too!

http://www.ctsfw.edu/etext/luther/theses/theses_e.asc

Is this what you believe?

(MN: Daryl, you’re being obtuse. No one is saying the Catholic Church is godly. That isn’t even the issue.

I’m going to leave this posting open for a couple of more hours. I can’t see much point in extending it much longer. Pretty much all that can be explained has been. If folks are going to insist that we should eschew seminary because God will mysitically deposit the information in our heads if we stare at the text long enough, then there is no rational argument I can use to dissuade them of that view. But the neat thing is - I don’t have to dissuade them. That’s not my job. )

My stance is clear.

(MN: I suspect there may have been a bit of miscommunications there. )

Here’s a little something about these two men, something you’d know if you would study rather than contemplate.

The first complete English translation may have been done by John Wycliffe and his supporters in England in the late 1300’s. Wycliffe’s teaching that the Scriptures, the Word of God, was the supreme authority above the word of any human religious leader resulted in him being labeled as a heretic by Roman Catholic Church authorities. Pope Gregory XI demanded his arrest in 1377, an order that was ignored by the English authorities.

Another Englishman, William Tyndale, produced translations of the Bible into English around 1530, and like Wycliffe, Tyndale was condemned as a heretic for teaching the primacy of the Word of God above that of any pompous human who blasphemously claimed the Divine title of The Holy Father to himself. Tyndale was not as fortunate as Wycliffe however. After years of persecution, and actually living on the run, William Tyndale was burned at the stake by Roman Catholic Church authorities after being arrested in Belgium.

Godly men? Yes. Learned men? Again yes. Used by the Spirit? Definitely. They were the fuel He used to spark the Reformation (you know, those protestants who were catholics - like me).

Maybe we should go back and re-read. I mean afterall, their appears to be a pre-occupation with pride and the “defense” of your supposed wisdom.

Especially when another individual summarized my position.

I laugh.

I mean, you grew zealous over a cut and paste job of threads made by differing people. What is there to be zealous about concerning that?

Couldn’t one dicern and see that these obviously have little to do with the current flow of discussion?

BTW-Testimony doesn’t need verifibility….it builds one another, so u keep looking for those “signs” to believe.

The prior (anonymous) statements are OBVIOUSLY conflicting.
And there was an over zealous answer to it, when they didn’t come from the same person.

How does that look? Is that zeal for the defense of the Bible or yourself?

Be cautious. I renege, when I need to. The pride of being a smash mouth apologetic seems to pre-occupy every thread, and an un-apologetic style in which it appears you cannot err, be incorrect, or accept the dis-agreeance of another believer.

You can have the last word, because I am certain you will respond…as I have made myself (& my position) clear.

Regards.

(MN: I’m confused. What’s the issue here in this last comment and the comment that spawned it. I’m not clear which comment that is by the way. )

I believe that “any” teacher should have formal training-although this is purely voluntary on the teacher’s part.

I for one would not consider sitting under any ministry where the pastor has no verifiable credentials from an accredited institution because my time and my life are just too important

So I will say that anyone who lacks the proper education is unqualified to teach me.

MHC

(MN: On the other hand, I think you miss out a lot with this stand. As we have discussed, credientials don’t make the teachers, lack of credentials don’t keep from teaching and being used quite effectively by God. )

You know Derrick………all that salvation stuff only applied to those folks too. Yup, it’s ALL in the First Century.

You see, God loves the unregenerate today, as well as the ignorant, because the writers of Scripture wrote ALL their letters to First Century folks. Therefore NONE of it applies to us according to your “revelation”. I mean, if you disregard the clear instruction of the Almighty to study because the letter was written to First Century Christians, you must ALSO disregard the instructions to First Century Christians about salvation.

HECK……….there IS an upside though!! All those First Century instructions about adultery are out the window too!!! Why don’t you run and tell your wife about your new “Holy Spirit” revelation,mmmmmmK??

I reiterate………..not even ONE cogent response as yet. And Derrick’s post ALONE should be evidence enough (for anyone with a modicum of synaptic function) where the path of blissful ignorance leads. Yup………no need to wonder where the uneducated come up with their kookiness any longer. I don’t think even Benny (9 In The Trinity) Hinn has suggested anything as vacuous and untethered to Scripture ( the REVEALED will of the Holy Spirit) as Derrick has right here………AND YOU LUCKY FOLKS GOT TO SEE IT LIVE AT PULPIT_PIMPS.ORG!!! The birth of a false doctrine!!

Thanks Derrick…………Exhibit 1A. And a scary one at that.

I’m confused on what base you statement. Would you expand please? Especially expand on how you decide what was for the 1st century church and what is for today’s church. Are we not to study to show ourselves approved? If we are, how do you know that segment of scripture is talking to us?

they were created by diff people. Anonymous just did a cut and paste job under that tag of three different comments.

That is why it appears contradictory.

Here goes:

Anonymous (posting @ 19:09:32 3-22) please explain this verse further as it would appear that since John was “teaching” them himself there is a contradiction when understood as you used the scripture.

Anonymous (posting @ 19:20:28 3-22) I already addressed the weakness of your statement. I would only add that you consulted your fiance about this. Is this person the Holy Ghost? If not, isn’t that a contradiction?

Anonymous (posting @ 19:23:57 3-22) Psalm 25:8-9? Question. How does God “teach sinners in the way”? Proverbs 1:7? “fools despise wisdom AND INSTRUCTION.” This scripture makes my point. Thank you. Also read vs. 8. Proverbs 9:7-9? Thanks, more ammo! Proverbs 18:2? More ammo. Proverbs 26:7-9? Who is the “fool” that you are referencing?

Now I need the Spirit to figure out how this verse fits in the discussion. Don’t try to help. You aren’t the Spirit.
As for the rest of your posting I have just one question. Did the Apostle Peter fit into that humble teachable mold that Jesus would only teach?

Kunflycted, I read through your maze of pablum and it is self refuting so far as the discussion at hand. Sinners and saved alike depend on God for existence, however I would ask you to define further your position in this discussion. I also have this question? Does the leading of the Spirit ever lead to a physical place? School, work, church, the grocery store, dentist? The way you people use this “leading” it would seem to me that you should never leave home. In fact you should stand still in one place and not move until Jesus comes back.

Gridiron, I’m not sure what you believe about this issue as you seem preoccupied with cheerleading. What is your opinion? Is seminary or formal theological training beneficial to you?

Finally, (I know you were thinking the same thing, LOL) Micheal Samuels, your last post was replete with Pimpology. Blessings? Oh and by the way “not because you agreed with me”? When did you bless me or GaryV or Melvin except as a secondary, condescending remark? Didn’t you call GaryV an attack dog? You have yet to logically defend your position. You continually miss the point being made by those that disagree with you and I suspect that you don’t even understand the point of those that agree. You will not acknowledge the fact that you use the education of men in every area of your life. Even when you go to the bathroom.

You refuse to acknowledge that you can’t read Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic. You refuse to acknowledge that you have a “charismatic, pentecostal, mystical” understanding of the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer. I think that these are all dangerous thoughts and give a clear picture as to the state of the churches today. All I can say is “even so come Lord Jesus”! Revelation 22:20

(MN: Ladies and gentlemen, may I introduce you to Riki Tiki Larry, my back-up mongoose. )

1) If you get an education, you don’t have the Spirit

2) If you get an education, you can’t RELY on the Spirit.

3) You don’t NEED an education to understand the Gospel.

Those three are the ones that keep popping up like pimples on the face of a pubescent chocoholic.

The first two are so blatantly ignorant,and easily disproven by history, Scripture, and common sense (far less common than I used to believe) that I’m not going to dignify them with a response unless pressed.

As to the third……..no one has EVER disputed that the Gospel is simple enough to understand and respond to without seminary education. The argument is an obvious strawman.

Of course………..even the uneducated can understand the seminary’s purpose IS NOT TO GET FOLKS SAVED.

IS IT?!?! Of course not. Seminary is for training in the Word, just as Paul referred to when speaking of those who “Labor in the Word and doctrine.”

Seminary is a place where those who ARE saved and HAVE the Spirit can be trained to lead the flock, divide the Word, and DEFEND THE FAITH.

Now……..as to the aspect of apologetics, I’m willing to assume that those here who despise education actually CARE about the Great Commission. See how gracious I’m being??

One bright Sunday, you(those who feel the less you know, the more spiritual you are) get a knock upon the front door of your domicile.

You open the door, and are greeted by a well groomed pair of fresh-faced lads in white shirt and ties (with obligatory nametags).

“Hello” says the bolder of the two, “We’d like to speak with you about Jesus.”

Recognizing them immediately as Jehovah’s Witnesses, what do you do??

A) You make a lame excuse about being in the middle of splitting the atom using a Ginsu knife and a pair of really fine tweezers (because you have absolutely NO idea how to refute their schpiel).

B) You slam the door in their faces, causing their pocket protectors to compress and spilling ink all over their white shirts (and thereby confirming them in their faith that you aren’t a JW because you are ignorant).

Or C) You invite them in politley, and let them present their twisted doctrine, relying upon the Holy Spirit alone to guide you (since you ignored the fact that the Holy Spirit gave us teachers, and that He said we are to honour those who labor in the Word and Doctrine).

So………..you (bold folks of faith that you are) invite them in.

The Lead Heretic says, after much introductory spew, that Jesus is NOT God, but A GOD. One among many, and inferior to Jehovah.

You respond that this simply isn’t so………Jesus is God, not A God.

Lead Heretic (hereafter referred to as LH) responds “No, look right here in John 1:1.” He whips out his New World Translation like Wyatt Earp on crystal meth, and reads thusly……..
Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was A God.”

You, dutiful Christian that you are, whip out your King James (you know, the one WITHOUT the Concordance or Bible Dictionary foisted upon us by the Evil Seminarians) and read it back to him, pointing out that the KJV does NOT say the same thing.

Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

“See” you say proudly “It says the Word was GOD, not A God.”

TLH responds, “Well, that’s because the KJV is corrupted. We have the TRUE translation.”

You respond, “No, WE have the true translation.”

TLH says, “No, you only believe that because you don’t have the Holy Spirit.”

You respond “No YOU don’t have the Holy Spirit.”

Now, at this point the conversation can go one of two ways. It can degenerate into a series of “No, WE have the true one” repeated by each party until it devolves into a series of “I know you are, but what am I” and finally into a sad bunch of Nyaaaaaaa Nyaaaaaaas, after which you send them out the dorr, neither side the better for the encounter with mutual ignorance.

Of course, one familiar with the Greek text COULD have pointed out that there is NO article in the Greek which preceeds the word “God” in that verse. Therefore the article “A” that their translation puts before “God” is a false interpolation.

One might also appeal to history, and the fact that NONE of the manuscripts that have come down from antiquity have EVER been found with the article “A” where the JWs need it, and that INCLUDES the manuscripts that were used by the 70 “scholars” who translated their NWT.

One might EVEN point out that the 70 who “translated” the NWT of the JWs WERE NOT GREEK SCHOLARS……….in fact, so dubious are the credentials of the translators that the Watch Tower Pimps refuse to POST their credentials OR NAMES.

Why?? You guessed it………..another product of the uneducated.

Of course, sadly, none of that was done for these perishing souls. It might have been better for you to slam the door on them. All you had to offer was…….

“My translation is right”……..”No MY translation is right.”

“I have the Holy Spirit”………”No, I have the Holy Spirit.”

Both sides leave convinced that THEY have the accurate Scriptures, and that THEY have the REAL Holy Spirit.

Or say the local atheist comes around, making fun of prophecy. You could respond that you believe in prophecy because the Bible says so, and the Holy Spirit bears witness with you.

The atheist, after running off to relieve his bladder from the hysterical laughter your response elicited, would simply say “Prove it.”

Now, had you been educated, you might have pointed to history and the many examples of fulfilled prophecy there. Or perhaps you were waiting upon the Holy Spirit to drop historical knowledge into your mind??

Isn’t it the Holy Spirit Who commanded……….not requested……..that we be “…….. ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear.”

But, you weren’t ready with an answer…….because you didn’t KNOW the answers. You left the Holy Spirit with very little to work with. He COULD have given you words salted with grace AND knowledge. He HAD the Grace………but you didn’t have the knowledge. You were unprepared.

It’s NOT an either/or proposition no matter HOW it is being dishonestly portrayed here. It’s not EITHER Grace OR knowledge. It SHOULD be Grace AND knowledge……..that is why we are commanded to STUDY, not simply to READ. That is why those who labor in the Word and Doctrine are accounted DOUBLE HONOUR by the Holy Spirit…………yet not by those here who CLAIM to be following Him so closely.

BUT…………YOU know enough to get YOU saved and keep YOU from falling. That’s all that matters after all. Right??

Utter stupidity………….I wish I could be sweeter than that, but it’s so blatantly ignorant that there simply isn’t another way to state it.

Is the Catholic church Godly?

I’m going there brother.

Not a one of us could compare to any of them? I truly beg to differ.

The comment was so specific that I remember Beryle responded to that testimony of the preacher talking about his seminary study and of how the Lord used a laywoman to reveal what a certain passage of scripture meant when he was trained himself.

I remember in fact making that EXACT comment the last time seminary came up in a side note some months ago.

Lets be original. Only someone with whom knows their way around here and how to locate that specific side comment probably snatched it…..I have a hunch.

Prob the reason for the blank tag on the thread.

peace

I must again address the logic, or the lack thereof, in your statements. Let’s make it personal. If I said something to you that you did not understand, would you ask me to explain myself or would you let the Spirit explain it to you? If someone who spoke another language was screaming to you for help in a language you didn’t understand, would you stand there and pray for an interpretation or would you look around to see if there was someone who did understand that language? This is getting ridiculous with you. The Spirit of God operates in the realm of our human understanding. For example, Josephus was not a Christian but he kept good records and did good research. His account of the time of the Apostles and his mentioning of “Jesus who is called Christ” gives historical evidence for the truth of the bible account. God uses men even when they don’t realize they are being used. You must see that. God truly has given us “all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that called us to glory and virtue:” (II Peter 1:3) but you seem to limit this “giving” to a mystical subjective experience which is unbiblical. This does not make a great case for the “spirit” you are following. Please read I John 4:1 over and over and over until you get it. IN LOVE!