It’s actually a very recent phenomenon that education has been disdained by the church. There was a time when one would not sit under the teaching of the unlearned.There was a time when the church was known for its great learning. Not so any longer. We revel in ignorance.
I see much bloviating about how the Doctors of Divinity are the ones twisting the Word. While there are SOME liberals that do so, there are FAR more uneducated pastors out there relying upon the “spirit” that have caused untold mayhem and destruction which FAR exceeds the damage done by a few liberals. And why was the damage by the liberals mitigated? Because the EDUCATED were able to contradict their errors.
Care to look at the genesis of the movement we fight on this site?
Azusa Street - Relying on the “spirit”.
Toronto Blessing - Relying on the “spirit”.
Brownsville - Relying on the “spirit”.
Hagin - Relying on the “spirit”.
Copeland??
Hinn??
Duplantis??
Hickey??
Osteen??
Savelle??
Tilton??
Dollar??
They ALL followed the methods you folks describe as relying on the “spirit”. How have they done? Why are you against them?
We, with our darkened understanding, our finite capacities, our sin-wrecked hearts, WE are going to rely on our ability to be led by the Spirit alone? How do you discern whether you are hearing the Spirit clearly without a deep knowledge of the Word? How do you know your darkened heart, sinful lusts, impure motives are not deceiving you??
The very first sin is in the protoevengelion, and it is due to NOT KNOWING WHAT GOD ACTUALLY SAID.
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
And here we have a man and woman WITHOUT the stain of sin being misled as to the Word of God. Yet WE, sin-darkened heart and all, think we can do better.
Seminary is an avenue to discern WHAT GOD ACTUALLY SAID. A perverted heart won’t be helped by seminary. A heart after God will be aided immeasurably, since the tools are implanted to KNOW what was said, and what was NOT said. To discern Truth from error. To lead the flock of God to safe pasture.
Where do you think the Spurgeons, Pinks, Chambers, Sprouls, Moulers, Hodges,Edwards, Macarthurs, Wesleys, Kennedys, et al come from? Those who agree with YOUR theological stances? No! They came from seminaries.
The havoc and ruin perpetrated in history AND TODAY by those who eschew teachers (in violation of the Word) and learning (in violation of the Word) is abetted by the words of many here.
You pontificate as to the uselessness of Biblical education, then turn around and excoriate ON THIS WEBSITE those who followed your advice (by failing to get an education) and have made shipwreck of the faith of millions.
The ability to PROPERLY EXEGETE the Word (which is learned in seminary) would have stopped “Blab it and grab it” before it got started. The ability to parse Greek and Hebrew in the Word (which is taught in seminary) would have stopped the “Jesus Died In Hell” doctrine before it ever got started. The knowledge of Biblical and church history (taught in seminary) would have stopped the growth of the neo-Gnostic Word of Faith movement in its tracks.
But, those who began these movements are UNEDUCATED, therefore the heresy lives. Those who support these movements are uneducated, therefore the heresy THRIVES.
Seminary doesn’t substitute for the calling and gifting of God, and no one here has ever claimed otherwise.But to extoll and revel in the sort of ignorance that has perpetrated these heresies upon the church is mind-boggling.
You who refer to Bible Concordances and reference the Greek and Hebrew to support your arguments against these pimps - where do you think those concordances CAME from? Some guy who just relied on the “spirit”? Or from learned men who submitted to the Spirit? You who refer to the works of church history to support your stance against the pimps, how do you think they were compiled? By some “spirit” alone or by learned men who submitted to the Spirit? You who refer to the works of Luther, Calvin, Spurgeon, etc, why do you not rather heap the scorn upon THEM that you do upon others who were educated?
You who read a Bible in English, why do you not reject it outright since it’s the product of seminary-trained men who were educated in Greek and Hebrew and history? Why do you not rather read the Word from the Greek and Hebrew?? You cannot, you say? Well, THEY could. How? Education.
Everytime you crack open a Bible to read, or refer to a concordance or Bible dictionary, or a work on church history or theology, you stand upon the shoulders of men that GOD gifted and EDUCATED to be a source of knowledge, and therefore a light to your path through their exposition of the Word.
But, while standing upon their shoulders for nearly EVERY bit of knowledge you have (even as far as being able to read a Bible at all in your native tongue), you ridicule and demean them. While standing upon their shoulders to defend the historic fatih against heretics (which you learned from these educated men), you publicly advocate the ignorance and lack of knowledge that INCITED the heresies to begin with.
1Ti 5:17
Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who LABOR IN THE WORD AND DOCTRINE.
Double honor? Heck no! We deride and insult them. What exactly do you think seminarians ARE but those who LABOR IN THE WORD AND DOCTRINE???
You stand upon their shoulders while crapping down their backs.
I don’t think I’ve ever read anything as deeply disappointing and depressing on this site as this thread……..and that includes anything by Creflo, or Benny Hinn.
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! I thought I was the only one there for a second. I wasn’t, you just expressed it better than I did. Nuff said!!!
My thoughts exactly, Gary V……
Someone says choosing to go to seminary’s unnecessary because the Holy Spirit is all we need, yet even the basic skills they possess to survive life (ex. Knowing your ABC’S , writing/analyzing, mathematical skills, telling time, etc) were gained by simply attending Kindergarten through High school.
Practically, they had to GET AN EDUCATION AND NOT JUST RELY ON THE HS FOR LEARNING. If that’s wrong, why not condemn ALL of the basic schooling we’ve had till now?
Why condone sole reliance on HS when studying God’s Word but believe education in secular venues doesn’t require Him, even though you need the HS equally in those areas? Christian Doctors, for example, MUST pursue schooling if they’re to be proficient in their skills and successfully save lives, but it’s still by the HS’s power they’ll complete the job…..and yet they still pursue education.
Why are ministers exempt? You wouldn’t tell an aspiring surgeon “Simply rely on the Spirit”, and yet you’d tell ministers the same….As if they do not need to gain sharpened skills/ further their knowledge so as to be secure in saving lives spiritually?
Sorry, but those altogether against seminary seems QUITE illogical…..
I agree, you do need a balance. The word instructs us to rightly divide the word of truth. How can one do so with out some sort of human intellect. Yet how can one correctly interpret the counsel of God with out the spirit. IMHO, the concept of wisdom, knowledge, and understanding combines both the use of earthly knowledge with the ability utilize that with the Spirit to make one wise. This scripture pretty much sums it up for me:
2 Timothy 2:15
“STUDY to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”
I think that the only problem sometimes is that some may use formal training or seminary to exalt themselves instead as a tool to build upon the foundation of truth for a more well rounded understanding. Yet others say that studying is absolutely useless and they are usually the ones that are easily lead astry by every wind of new teaching.
With all of that said, i think most folk solely judge someone’s capacity of biblical knowlege because they have a LLD or DR. after their name. Its my contention that now-a-days alot of bishops and pastors use that to make themselves more marketable to potential listeners or “partners”.
G2…you come out of hibernation and you are missing the point. What are you talking about?
As a matter of FACT you take the point in a direction in which it is not. You appear to be debating for the sake of debating.
Teach if there is something of note.
The matter is that we (at least I and some others) feel great about seminary, but it is not absolute with regard to the Lord teaching you.
I actually agree with GaryV, that is true with regard to having the learned men study and provide what we have today.
My issue is that there are as many churches as many seminaries and seminary time is very valuable as you are sitting in a formalized setting and being indoctrinated with the structure of that “church” doctrine aligned with the seminary.
There are good ones as well, and I actually desire to attend the Talbot School of Theo at Biola (Pastor John went there as well), but with that being said churches and seminaries are popping up all over.
How can one choose?
I wonder what New Life (Ted haggards old churches seminary) teaches, or Noel Jones at the LA school of Ministry? Pastor Rod Parsley?
I even know smaller ones whom have Bible colleges.
The whole jest of it is we cannot afford to push it upon anyone. If yo ARE educated, use that to teach another, don’t push someone to “get their own”.
the stronger vessels empower the weaker ones, and with that being said….they may hunger for it. but until then, the job of the educated is to teach those that aren’t…..that is laboring in word and doctrine as well……bring it to the pulpit and teach as other will hunger for the truth and we won’t even have to suggest they go….they will reach for it.
Grid,
The point of the discussion is whether or not seminary is something wise to invest in, and my post was to show how claiming that it’s unnecessary to further one’s education because of the HS’s presence is illogical.
Like Gary said, we ALL rely on the knowledge of those who wisely furthered their education…..and, for those with the means, pursuing further biblical study from seminaries (or at least some sort of institution for theological training) would seem like common sense.
Unless you’re ALTOGETHER (meaning completely and without reason) against attending seminary, as many have already made clear (such as Mr. Samuels apparently), the post doesn’t concern YOU………There was no need for responding to my post with sarcasm/ a condescending tone as if I didn’t understand the point of the discussion.
Prior to my post, I read yours and quite agree with your point of not forcing it upon others because 1.) There are exceptions, 2.) Not every seminary is credible, and 3.) It’d be wrong to believe that holding a title makes one ready to live for the Lord or lead others….. But there really isn’t a valid point for others to say it’s completly a waste….
Questions?
None at all, point well taken. I concede, and that was a good summarization of my points. Said it better than I did.
hi gridikins, and the family…
i would like to respond to gary’s post- but i have been a little tied up. “see” you shortly. (smile)
I agree–I would never sit under a ministry where the pastor has no education, and quite a bit of it at that.
I believe that “any” teacher should have formal training-although this is purely voluntary on the teacher’s part.
I for one would not consider sitting under any ministry where the pastor has no verifiable credentials from an accredited institution because my time and my life are just too important
So I will say that anyone who lacks the proper education is unqualified to teach me.
MHC
(MN: On the other hand, I think you miss out a lot with this stand. As we have discussed, credientials don’t make the teachers, lack of credentials don’t keep from teaching and being used quite effectively by God. )
I agree………..a seminary degree is NOT a prerequisite to being an effective pastor. But it WOULD help a Godly pastor/elder…………it’s not the end of spirituality that some here insist, as if God demands we switch off our brains when we accept Christ. As I’ve said before, the stances some have taken are the most embarrassing things ever written on this site.
Keep on feeding the stereotype of the ignorant Christian……….sad.
Gary, you stand on the shoulders of the giants of men, I’ll stand on the Word.
(MN: Then, according to GaryV and others, you should be reading the NT in Greek and Aramaic, and the OT in Hebrew. And you would have to have been taught Hebrew and Greek, and Aramaic by “The Holy Ghost.”
That was a nice turn of a phrase, but it really didn’t address the issue. Unless you were born speaking Greek and Hebrew, you are benefitting from the efforts of men and women who came before us.
What am I not seeing here? )
I too agree with you GaryV…The argument from the “other” side, I was having difficulty understanding. I thought some of the comments were very sweeping and general to some degree. But who am I….
Anywho, upon reading your response I was interested to see what Bro. Michael Samuels had to say given his prior responses. And he answered as I thought…I ask the same [however rhetorical it may be] question to him that I asked Mrs. Mav, what are your thoughts on higher education in general? I, too, find it fascinating that the church has these thoughts concerning seminary (which in may instances flows into their thoughts of higher education as well)…
(MN: Just as a note - you’re posting three comments everytime you submit a comment. Any idea of why? )
Yep…I have been having problems with the site…Similar to the problems people have noted in the past. Not sure what is up, but when I hit the send comment button, it won’t progress. I end up stopping and trying again…Sorry. We’ll see what happens this time
(MN: I may yet again be a victim of the site’s success. The site has been kind of slow. I’ve got a mesage into my VOPWM to look into it. )
Melvin, that was the exact response I was saving for just this comment from Michael.
Michael, you claim to stand ONLY upon the Spirit and the Word, and need no man to teach you. Fine…………get yourself a Greek New Testament and let the Spirit translate it for you. Find a Hebrew Old Testament and let the Spirit translate THAT for you.
Unless you do so, you are being hypocritical, for nothing you read in the Bible is a product of the Spirit’s translation. It is the work of men GIFTED by the Holy Spirit through education. Every time you come here and quote a passage of Scripture in your native language (the product of the very seminarians you despise) you make a mockery of your own stated beliefs, and demonstrate that your beliefs are false.
YOU do not even follow YOUR OWN beliefs, since you rely upon the fruit of the educated EVERY DAY, and EVERY TIME you read either your Bible or other Biblical helps.
If all you need is the Spirit, and not that any man should teach you (which destroys the context of that text, BTW) then I want you to read a chapter in the Greek New Testament and tell us what it says without referencing the works of seminarians………..like the Bible in English, Bible Concordances, Bible Dictionaries, and the other tools the Holy Spirit put at our disposal through these Godly men.
Put your money where your faith is, or your belief is exposed as false. Let the Holy Spirit tell you what the Hebrew and Greek means.
Your typical response that it is you who stand on the Word is rendered ridiculous by the fact that the only reason you can even READ the Word is because of the dedicated men and women of God who “Labor in the Word and doctrine”.
You REVILE those who use the fruits of the seminaries, yet you do PRECISELY THE SAME THING every time you crack open your Bible.
The fact is, the Word was written originally in a language you DO NOT UNDERSTAND, the Word was delivered to a culture that you DO NOT COMPREHEND, the Bible is set in definitive eras which you DO NOT KNOW, unless someone with the proper education teaches you.
You rely on seminarians and the learned every time you open that Bible. Your little theory stands you alongside spiritual luminaries such as the same Word of Faith pimps you reject. You line up behind Hagin and Copeland and Dollar and Hinn and the rest of the proud ignorant . You castigate them for their errors while applauding them for the METHOD by which they INVENTED their errors.
Get a Greek New Testament. Ask the Holy Spirit to tell you what it means………post what the Spirit told you here, and I will let you know how you did.
Otherwise, your entire premise is exposed for the pablum it is.
GaryV, why do you attack Michael as though what he said was false?
True, we all use various translations of the bible by educated men who are inspired by the holy spirit and are called to those ministries but do not write off the posibility of God revealing hebrew or greek to anyone who asks.
Don’t forget that our God is capable of doing even greater things than we can ever imagine. Your point is very true and should be taken seriously and not criticized but i don’t agree with you when you call Michael of being hipocritical in any context because there is a lot of truth in what he said too.
We as believers in Christ and as children of the most high God are supposed to rely solely on the holy spirit for everything, do we do so? probably not but we are SUPPOSED to.
Moreover what is this talk about the church and all. We as believers are not justified by what church we go to, we are justified before God firstly due to God’s amazing grace and secondly, our believe is measured by our personal relationship with God through Jesus christ. Lets talk about things that will enable us strengthen this relationship we have with God an build up eachothers faith.
Sel,
What Michael said was false! Where is your biblical evidence to back up your claim that we should only follow the Spirit? Here’s my biblical evidence to the contrary:
Psalm 37:37- Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright: for the end of that man is peace.
Philippians 4:17- Brethren, be ye followers of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have US for an example.
Hebrews 13:7- Remember them which have the rule over you, WHO HAVE SPOKEN UNTO YOU THE WORD OF GOD: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
There of course are others but I’m starting to think that if this horse wasn’t dead he would be tired of being beaten.
Bro Lawrence, Forgive my miss understanding of your point. That being said, I want to stress that what i was trying to say was that it is not an impossible task for the holy spirit to reveal or translate hebrew or greek to english. i probably didn’t state that point as clearly as i should have. thanks for keeping me in check.
Sel, because what Michael said IS false, and dangerous?? DId you read the post??
Also, Michael is attempting to get folks to follow the Spirit and the Word WITHOUT the influence of those educated in the Word. YET, he uses the resources provided by the educated men he despises everytime he opens his Bible. That’s hypocrisy. (MN: Only if he isn’t too foolish to understand the inconsistency of his position. I still don’t think he understands that the Bible was not written in English. I’m not even sure he is up on the fact that the first book printed by Gutenburg was the Bible, but that it not in English. Hipocrisy isn’t just doing what I tell others not to do. Rather, it might better be thought of as doing what I tell others not to do while making them think I don’t do it too. I really don’t think Mike understands where the Bible came from. )
He’s telling OTHERS to do what he HIMSELF does not do, which is the very definition of hypocrisy.I don’t see how it can get any clearer. (MN: Again, I think he thinks he does do it. )
GaryV point clearly made. My mistake was not completely reading his post. I do not agree with Mike’s position but I am argueing that the God is capable of translating whatever he chooses to those who ask through the spirit.
(MN: Other than Daniel with the drunken king in the Old Testament, and Joseph Smith in New York state, would you care to give me an example of this?
You’re right, God can translate whatever he chooses. He can also make me trade places with one of the members of the next shuttle crew. He can even make the earth stop spinning and reverse it self around the sun without causing any disruption. He could turn me into a man who has all the agility and proportionate strength of a spidre and give me spider sense - wait, he’s have to pay copywriting fees to Stan Lee if He did that.)
But we’re not talking about what God might do. We are talking about what God has done. We are talking about what God does. He has not supernaturally given you the ability to read Hebrew and Greek. He has not supernaturally given anyone in the known world the ability to read Hebrew and Greek. And until He either supernaturally gives YOU the ability to read Hebrew and Greek, or you learn on your own, you will depend on translations made by the men who came before us. This goes for the silliness that Mike keeps talking as well. )
to MN, Gary,
The dance of the faithless
You’re not seeing God’s hand, you’re crediting man, God’s grace is what gave us the word,
without chapters, verses, and commentary’s.
(MN: Mike, you’ve got to start making sense. The New Testament was written in Greek. The Old Testament was written in Hebrew. The Bible that you read right now as translated from Greek and Hebrew. Who translated the version you read? If there were no English translations of the Bible would you be able to read the New Testament or the Old Testament in Greek or Hebrew respectively? Yes we can see God’s hand. But you seem to be ignoring what God used - men, godly men (most of the time). IF there were no English translation of the Bible, how would the Spirit lead you? Are you being led by men and trusting men when you read an English translation of the Bible? )
The simple Question is Can God lead HIS children
in all truth by the spirit of truth, if the answer is yes then you have to face the fact that your just faithless, you believe that God can not fully equip the believer, he has limits,only seminary trained men of man can fully discern the word of God.
Are we back in the 15th century when only a hand full of people privileged could read,
Has not God in his grace opened his word to all who seek it in spirit and in truth?
Lazy so,called Christian are no excuse for thinking God is inept, the pimps are the predators and pray on the weak not the strong yet humble.
Error is made because the heart is unregenerate not because we need Greek or what ever to “truly” understand it, does the Greek clarify Christ’s mission, my witness is it more convincing to the lost soul? NOT
The world speaks the language of the King (English) because God has made it so
the printing press was invented so that the Bible can be read by the ordinary man and woman because again man’s heart is corrupt and institutions worse ( the Holy Roman Catholic Church, thousands dead at the hand of knowledge). The Spirit of the believer warring against the flesh battling that for truth will receive it,
why would God inspire the scripture to say
“ever learning” what is the Knowledge of truth, learning can be an addictive,
I submit trusting God and not leaning to my understanding or my desires or my flesh this will produce God’s divine truth.
As it is applied to my every day life, my witnesses must be my life, not my ability to exingoutjesus LOL.
I don’t need to understand the concepts of salvation to believe it’s about faith,
I am not accepting the nonsense of the so-called spiritual leaders of today, I will not be led by any man.
Gary’s “A” list of non Apostles mean zero. (MN: But without that A-List you wouldn’t have a concordance, a Greek/English dictionary, the NKJV translation, or even the KJV. How would your read the Bible if it were still in the original Greek and Hebrew? How would you know what the Gosple is if you couldn’t read the original Greek and Hebrew? I really think you are missing the point. Everything you do in English is because of what some Godly, Spirit led man did in Greek, Hebrew, History, etc. )
Gary, what do you have against Peter, John, Paul, is it that they were unlearned?
Gary, why would I need the Holy Spirit to teach me Greek, do we not have the word (MN: It’s in ENGLISH!!! That’s why you don’t NEED to read Greek or Hebrew. )
Is their a difference, because the only reason why the Holy Spirit would need to
Teach it to me the Greek is if the Bible is in error. Are you saying the English version is
In error ??? (MN: Mike, are you being obtuse on purpose? I’m serious. Do you really not understand that Paul didn’t use the King James Bible when he preached? )
Also, Please prove as you so eloquently require of others
Scripture where were told that Holy Spirit needs validation by our flesh for conformation His truth. (MN: Jesus said “Thy word is Truth” - John 17: 17. Of coure, you wouldn’t know that if someone had not translated the original Greek into English. )
Thank you, please keeps it coming
Because I know at times you can be a bit gun shy, smile
Michael, you seem unable to grasp even the simplest point. If the Bible was written ONLY in Greek and Hebrew, and you are an American who ONLY knew English, you COULD NOT read it. It was Godly men, EDUCATED men, that God used to TRANSLATE the Bible into English so you read………or rather misread……the Word.
IF you want your claim that you ONLY need the Holy Spirit and NOT educated men to discren Truth, then STICK TO THE GREEK/HEBREW BIBLE. When you use an ENGLISH Bible you are RELYING UPON EDUCATED MEN that God used to translate it. For your position to be consistent, you MUST be able to take a Greek NT and have the SPIRIT ALONE reveal it to you.
I’ve challenged you to do so……………so DO SO. This little ignorance ploy isn’t really convincing. You know EXACTLY what we’re talking about. You simply cannot answer it coherently without exposing the folly of your position, so you feign obtuseness.
Fine………the ploy is transparent enough that all see through it anyway.
BTW,,,,,isn’t it YOU who are without faith?? After all, you keep babbling about needing no man, yet you will not take up the challenge of having the Holy Spirit reveal Greek or Hebrew to you. Whassamattah?? No faith in what you say you believe about the Holy Spirit??
(MN: Let me illustrate what we’re saying. This is a section from the New Testament. It’s in Greek. Tell me what it says. If I work REAL hard for several hours I can translate it with about a 70% chance of getting it right. Ask the Spirit to tell you what it says.
Can’t understand it? You don’t have to. Better men than me translated it for me and put it in the NASB. )
Were these men Godly?
Wycliff - Catholic Church/Educated at Oxford. Who founded Oxford?
Bede - Catholic Church.
Aldhelm - Catholic Church.
Aelfric - Catholic Church.
Vulgate translation - Catholic Church.
Tyndale - Protestant (Catholic Church spinoff).
King James - ??? (Started off Catholic).
Darryl………….are you insinuating that Wycliff and Tynedale are NOT Godly men??
Don’t go there brother………..not a one of us could compare.
It’s not an insinuation, I am asking the question to hear the responses. Same with me and any of you; How do YOU know who is Godly and who is not? Surely you all have this question/answer down to a science as per your critique of everyone preaching the gospel and your revelation(s) from God regarding the written word.
Is the Catholic church Godly?
I’m going there brother.
Not a one of us could compare to any of them? I truly beg to differ.
Actually, GaryV is saying that Wycliffe and Tyndale took some tremendous chances in making the translations. They were, apparently, quite godly, fighting against the authority of the church and working to get the Bible (controlled by the Catholic church and only translated into Latin) into the hands of every day men. In fact, I believe it was Tyndale who said to a fan of papal (versus Biblical) authority “I defy the pope and all his laws… If God spare my life ere many years, I will cause a boy that driveth the plow shall know more of the scripture than thou dost.”
Here’s a little something about these two men, something you’d know if you would study rather than contemplate.
Godly men? Yes. Learned men? Again yes. Used by the Spirit? Definitely. They were the fuel He used to spark the Reformation (you know, those protestants who were catholics - like me).
In the hands of laity…
It doesn’t take much to find out the history of Wycliffe and Tyndale. Just google it and it’s there. We know from the google’d passages that they were both killed for translating and providing the translated word to laity as it is so stated.
Let’s be real and talk about what it was that so reviled them to separate themselves from the Catholic church. Oh yeah, we can google that too!
http://www.ctsfw.edu/etext/luther/theses/theses_e.asc
Is this what you believe?
(MN: Daryl, you’re being obtuse. No one is saying the Catholic Church is godly. That isn’t even the issue.
Here. Let me say it again. Watch my lips here and I will speak slowly. No one is saying the Catholic Church is Godly. What we are saying is that it was godly, educated men who opened the Bible up to the laity. Interestingly enough, in the 900 years of the Catholic Church’s control, the Holy Spirit never just dumped the ability to read and write Greek and Hebrew into anybody’s head. Tyndale had to learn them. Wycliffe had to learn them. And they paid the price for LEARNING the skills and using them. We reap the rewards.
The Holy Spirit did not simply dump the ability to build the movable type printing press into Gutenberg’s head anymore than he dumped the ability to fly an airplane into mine. Gutenberg had to study, experiment. I had to study and practice (my instructor wouldn’t let me eperiment too close to the ground).
As a result you are benefitting from the skills of several men - Gutenberg, Luther (who got the Bible out of Latin and into German), Tyndale, Wycliffe, Calvin, and a host of others. Without the Reformation, the Catholic Church would still run everything. Without the wide distribution of the Bible in native languages, there would have been no reformation. Without the invention of the movable type printing press, there would have been no wide spread distribution of the Bible.
Try to think this all the way through and don’t just look at it as if the Bible has a) always been in English, or b) that the Bible some how magically and mystically appeared in english.
Again, no one is saying the Catholic Church or supporters of the Catholic Church are Godly. Neither Wycliffe nor Tyndale were supporters of the Catholic Church.
Remember, the issue in this discussion is not “Is the Catholic Church godly?” That is not the issue. Again, the godliness or lack there of of the Catholic Church is not the issue. The issue “Would we even have an English Bible without the work of educated Godly men, of whom Wycliffe and Tyndale were two.
We stand on the sholders of giants. Wycliffe was a giant. Tyndale was a giant. Luther was a giant. Calvin was a giant. McArthur. well, McArthur is kind of largish, you know, bigger than most, not as big as others. Sort of a basketball player among jockeys. But I digress.
You have an English bible to read, not because the Holy Spirit mysically deposited the ability to read and write Greek and Hebrew into someone’s head, but because of the work done by Godly men.
Try to focus on that. Stop distracting with the Samuelesque jumps in logic and theology.
By the way, did the Holy Spirit mysitcally create the internet and mysitically create the web sites that have the information you reference? Did the Holy Spirit mystically create Google, the search engine you used to find the information on the Catholic Church? NO! You are depending on the work of men who came before you.
And like the internet work and capabilities, what you do with the information you are taught by teachers is dependent on your submission to the work of the Holy Spirit in your life.
I’m going to leave this posting open for a couple of more hours. I can’t see much point in extending it much longer. Pretty much all that can be explained has been. If folks are going to insist that we should eschew seminary because God will mysitically deposit the information in our heads if we stare at the text long enough, then there is no rational argument I can use to dissuade them of that view. But the neat thing is - I don’t have to dissuade them. That’s not my job. )
Darryl The Historian wrote………
To the Word and to the testimony Darryl.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Fine…………LETS DO GO THERE.
John Wycliffe, Theologian/Translator
* Born: c. 1324
* Birthplace: Hipswell, England
* Died: 31 December 1384
* Best Known As: Church reformer who TRANSLATED THE BIBLE INTO ENGLISH
John Wycliffe (sometimes Wyclif) was a scholar at Oxford who wrote on philosophy and theology. In the 1370s he was condemned for errors and heresies by Popes Gregory XI and Urban VI, but his popularity in England allowed him to escape arrest and persecution by the Catholic Church. In 1380 Wyclif claimed that transubstantiation was not supported by the Bible; he was condemned at Oxford as a heretic and forced to retire. After his retirement he continued to write and is credited with INITIATING THE FIRST FULL ENGLISH TRANSLATION OF THE BIBLE. His followers, called Lollards, are considered forerunners to the PROTESTANT REFORMATION.
(GV) Hmmmmmmmmmmmm………so Wycliff’s fruit is that he OPPOSED the false doctrines of the Catholic church, opposed the false Popes, and translated the Bible into the language of the people to free them from the twin tyrannies of false doctrine and ignorance (a battle we’re still fighting right here).
Care to re-think your inaccurate description of this Godly man as an unGodly Catholic??
In fact , this learned and Godly man was used by the Holy Spirit to spark the movement that was the forerunner of the Reformation. Since you obviously don’t like Catholics, I assume you believe along with us that the Reformation was a movement of the HOLY SPIRIT, and must now admit that the Holy Spirit used this learned, seminary trained, Godly man. In fact, Wycliff is known (by those who don’t despise learning) as The Morning Star of The Reformation.
Tyndale??
Tyndale, Tindal, or Tindale, William (all: tĭn’dəl) , c.1494,1536, English BIBLICAL TRANSLATORtranslator and PROTESTANT (not Catholic) martyr. He was probably ordained shortly before entering (c.1521) the household of Sir John Walsh of Gloucestershire as chaplain and tutor. His sympathy with the new learning led to disputes with the clergy, and he moved to London, determined to translate the New Testament into English. Finding that publication could not be accomplished in England, Tyndale went to Hamburg in 1524, visited Martin Luther in Wittenberg, and at Cologne began (1525) the printing of the New Testament. Interrupted by an injunction, he had the edition completed at Worms. When copies entered England, they were denounced by the bishops and suppressed (1526); Cardinal Wolsey ordered Tyndale seized at Worms. Living in concealment, Tyndale pursued his translation, issuing the Pentateuch (1530) and the Book of Jonah (1536). His work was later the basis of the King James Version of the Bible. His tracts in defense of the principles of the English Reformation, The Obedience of a Christian Man (1528) and The Parable of the Wicked Mammon (1528), were denounced by Sir Thomas More. The Practice of Prelates (1530), condemning the divorce of Henry VIII, drew the wrath of the king. Occupied with revising his translations, Tyndale was seized (1535) in Antwerp and confined in Vilvoorde Castle, near Brussels. His trial ended in condemnation for heresy, and he was strangled at the stake before his body was burned.
(GV) Hmmmmm………another “Catholic”???
So, let’s see………….seminary trained, learned men who hazarded their own lives to bring the Bible into the possession of the masses, that the grip of Roman tyranny might be broken, and that all men might know the Grace of our Lord.
Tynedale was even strangled and burned at the stake, holding fast his confession of faith in Christ, refusing (along with Wycliff) to recant and be spared.
REALLY?!?! How does YOUR fruit compare?? I know MINE doesn’t. I haven’t as yet lost everything for the cause of Christ as Wycliff, nor lost all things as well as my life as Tynedale. Have you??
Ladies and Gentlemen………..I present Exhibit 2A.
Sorry Melvin………..this excellent response wasn’t here when I posted my response to Historian Darryl.
Sadly, I agree that this horse has been beaten past the point of productivity.
Very depressing, to say the least.
Mr. benevolent and the Attack dog Gray: I am not ignorant to the history of how the Bible we have today came about, I am also aware that God used man. I’m also not ignorant to the fact that the Koine Greek and Hebrew Ulpan are copies of the originals and that over a span of time accounting for human error the copies would naturally have a percentage of errors. Since there are no originals in existences today to verify the copies so whether you can read Koine Greek or the Hebrew you could be reading an unreliable document. Did you know that Muslim reject what we have even the Greek because it’s not the original. But God is good and has given us by faith what is needful to live godly in Christ Jesus.
MN: How would I understand with no translations?
Again, with God all thing are possible, I am of the opinion that if asked God will make a way for me or anyone to understand that Jesus saves, even if it came out of the backside of an ass, Our problem is that after it came out of the backside of the ass we would open a school, line up a bunch of ass’s to teach us, when the ass’s job was only to translate, then we’d call it “Of God” and berate anyone that challenged our wisdom, The translators were not their to discern the things of God merely to translate “to turn into one’s own or another language” Merriam-Webber, because the Holy Spirit is our teacher he will take what was translated and give us an understanding if truth is what we seek. Truth is truth, in Greek or translated.
Because you covet Learning you defend what you covet, you have grown dependent on it’s your strength, your temple. Three kinds of believers 1Cor 1:22
#1. Believers by knowledge (Wisdom) - as long as they can intellectually assess fact they will believe.
#2. Believers by signs- lazy Christians of today, they follow lying signs and wonders of the Pimps and snake oil salesmen
#3. Believers by faith- the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
The scriptures are clear that God has given us all we need to live Godly in Christ. Gary used this on me once, “with all your knowledge get understanding” we got the knowledge from translators so I say thank you to the translators for allowing God to use them. And now with what was translated let’s ask the Holy Spirit to give us understanding.
Let’s see………..you called us faithless, Spiritless, basically Godless………..but I’M the attack dog.
Pot…………meet kettle.
Not to mention the fact that you JUSt got through telling me that I depend on my intellectual strength rather than God, so I’m an idolator as well.
Who’s the attack dog?? Please………..your arguments are so vacuous it’s hard to take them seriously. The fact remains, you urge others to reject education when you yourself rely on the education of others everytime you open your Bible.
Bottom line……….your thesis has no merit.
LMBO @ michael samuels!!
“I am of the opinion that if asked God will make a way for me or anyone to understand that Jesus saves, even if it came out of the backside of an ass, Our problem is that after it came out of the backside of the ass we would open a school, line up a bunch of ass’s to teach us, when the ass’s job was only to translate, then we’d call it “Of God” ”
this is too funny.
Michael,
I must again address the logic, or the lack thereof, in your statements. Let’s make it personal. If I said something to you that you did not understand, would you ask me to explain myself or would you let the Spirit explain it to you? If someone who spoke another language was screaming to you for help in a language you didn’t understand, would you stand there and pray for an interpretation or would you look around to see if there was someone who did understand that language? This is getting ridiculous with you. The Spirit of God operates in the realm of our human understanding. For example, Josephus was not a Christian but he kept good records and did good research. His account of the time of the Apostles and his mentioning of “Jesus who is called Christ” gives historical evidence for the truth of the bible account. God uses men even when they don’t realize they are being used. You must see that. God truly has given us “all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that called us to glory and virtue:” (II Peter 1:3) but you seem to limit this “giving” to a mystical subjective experience which is unbiblical. This does not make a great case for the “spirit” you are following. Please read I John 4:1 over and over and over until you get it. IN LOVE!
Mel, what you’re not seeing is that the Bible was translated for me apart from man’s commentary. (MN: Not really. It is ILLUMINATED by the Holy SPirit. You do not translate the original Greek or Hebrew. That is the point of GaryV’s posting.) God in His infinite wisdom placed it in the hearts of men to put His Word in the language of the common people so that every man could read and know God for themselves without the need of an interpreter! (MN: And you don’t speek Koine Greek, so you need an interpreter - in this case, the ones who translated the Greek and Hebrew into English for the various versions of the Bible. )
What you’re not seeing is history repeating itself. The same tactics the Roman Catholics used to manipulate the people by telling them that they alone had “the knowledge” is the same thing the Protestant “clergy” is using on anyone who opposes seminary training.
No one is saying we aren’t grateful for the labor of the translators but all the glory belongs to God. He foresaw and gave man the ability to invent the printing press. He wanted us all to Have His Word, not only a select few who understood the original languages. (MN: And that is where a seminary comes in. It enables the reader of God’s word to understand the original language. Do you have to go to seminary to learn Greek and Hebrew? Certainly not. I’m trying [have been for the last 15 years] to learn on my own. Do you have to attend seminary to understand the history and culture? Certainly not! But it is more efficient. I can either do it piecemeal by reading the works of men or I can do it as a system…in seminary or bible college, or bible school, etc. )
By the way GaryV, what spirit are the seminary professors relying on when they impart knowledge of God’s Word to their students?
Derrick, God didn’t drop the knowledge of Greek and Hebrew into the hearts of the translators. He guided them to STUDY. God does get all the glory, but HE used LEARNED MEN to accomplish His goals. Please cite for us the instances in history where God dragged some illiterate moron out of a cave, gave him a supernatural revelation of Greek, and had the poor slob translate Holy Writ. Sorry……..God gifted these men through STUDY, and if He did not, your Bible would STILL be in Greek and you would be lost.
BTW…………..I’m going to address the exceedingly IGNORANT and INSULTING stupidity that keeps coming up in this conversation. Why is it that you FEEEEEEL that if one is trained in a seminary, one must therefore be bereft of the Spirit??
Where do you people come up with this sort of idiocy?? Where is your Biblical basis for spewing this drivel?? Please answer in the Greek so that you won’t have to rely upon learned men.
Since when does IGNORANCE equate to GODLINESS?? Since when does EDUCATION equate to GODLESSNESS?? It’s abundantly clear that you have had little or likely NO contact with educated Christians……….which explains much.
This entire conversation is an embarrassment of idiocy. I pray that no one in the secular world reads this, as you offer proof that the stereotype of the uneducated and backward Christian is indeed accurate.
“Us’n Kristians, we HATE book-learnin.”
So much for “Study to shew thyself approved.” So much for “Give double honor to those who labor in the Word and doctrine.” So much for the dozens of verses directly linking knowledge and wisdom. So much for Paul’s admonitions to “Give thyself to reading and doctrine.”
You guys need to start handling snakes too, and make the stereotype complete. How embarrassing.
This brings me back to my orginal question. WHY aren’t these matters taught by learned (pastors/elders) men to their congregants on Sundays??!? (or whenever they meet).
Never been trained, not to say that I will never be, but yet I can say that being here has taught me many a matter in learning to understand passages and context of scripture in a much better fashion.
What many here (may) be hitting on is the state of what is viewed of many seminaries is just as transparent with regard to the poor state of the “church” as well.
Many start their own seminaries of training (as well) in connection with their church such as Rod Parsley, Noel Jones, Ted Haggard’s former church New Life….so how can one distinguish when they do not have an accurate knowledge of the scriptures?
Luke 10:21
In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
Noel Jones has a twisted Gospel, but yet graduated with a Bachelor of Theology from Aenon Bible College. He started pastoring at 19. He esteems himself as wise.
On paper he qualifies, so how can I distinguish otherwise without scriptural knowledge or even understanding?
The spirit of the Lord distinguished that for me, by bringing me to places like here.
People witness an individual such as him and are entangled in his eloquence when he speaks, and are WELL AWARE of his educated background.
It is sheer deception.
Now there are many, many, many concordances out and differing Bible translations which do the scriptures no justice (ie- The Messgae, NIV). How are we to differenciate? That is what the body is for, right? Paul became as weak as those he ministered to to win them for the Lord, right? Those of whom are decieved are won by giving them the truth of what is right. If seminary is in their future that will come.
Many questions, and differences have been cleared up for me, not to mention obtaining a theologian’s commentary to a Bible that I have & how it amazingly makes the scriptures transparent, and the lies allthemore open.
The spirit of God has opened these matters up for me.
The stronger parts of the body aid in the functionality and development of the weaker vessels. Right? Not everyone will attend seminary. I don’t believe that everyone (I by no means am not stating) is called to formality in education.
One can advocate the education, but personally being here has aided & taught more FROM AN EDUCATIONAL STANDPOINT as I pay attention to all you individuals (with and without training) expound on the scriptures and engage in discussion for all others to see.
Through this I have learned more than within the past 2 years combined.
Isn’t it OUR job to equip one another, and not the job of a formal institution? To pay for it? What if I cannot afford it? Will God not pardon me?
The state of modern-day seminaries holds no more weight than the fledging state of the “church”. That is what the overall view is. Finding a GOOD seminary appears almost as hard as finding a GOOD “church”.
Just about every church I have been a “member” of in the past has their own school of training as well, so what is real?
That is the current state. It appears bad, and the remnant needs to build one another up in the truth and not risk paying for lies. If a good one is out there and one can afford it, go….but yet it is not binding of one to qualify as being approved unto the Lord.
Grid, the questions you have of seminaries are the same questions you must use to choose a church. Are all seminaries good?? No……….no more than all churches are good. How do you choose a church?? Is the Spirit involved?? Is doctrine involved?? Of course. It’s no different for a seminary.
Do you agree with EVERYTHING a church teaches?? I doubt it. Must one who attends a seminary agree with EVERYTHING taught there?? Of course not.
HOWEVER……..once the seminary puts the tools in your hands through language, and historical, and cultural studies, YOU can discern the wheat from the chaff from either professor, pastor, or heretic. That is the point.
Greek and Hebrew are NOT subjective……….they are governed by set rules of grammar and tense and structure. Once you KNOW these rules, nothing a erring teacher tells you will bind you any longer.
To castigate the seminaries because they are not perfect makes no more sense than to castigate your church because IT is not perfect. Heck, find me ONE perfect institution this side of Heaven.
Perfection isn’t the standard………the quality of the education is, and that can be easily discerned through a multitude of sources. I hate to say it, but I learned A LOT of Truth at Rhema. Was there error there……….ABSOLUTLEY. Did that keep me from Truth?? Absolutely not, once the tools were in my hands.
“Greek and Hebrew are NOT subjective……….they are governed by set rules of grammar and tense and structure. Once you KNOW these rules, nothing a erring teacher tells you will bind you any longer. ”
I’ve studied Russian (cyrillic based like greek), German and French. Simple tools from these left me knowing that not all languages are structured the same. When my wife was in a den of WofF’s and believed in their mistranslation of ‘Faith IN God’ to mean ‘Faith OF God’ to get the foundations of that whole heretical system of needing “the God kinda faith to ‘make things happen’ like God did.” I was able to more easily point out that none of those who believed this knew anything of the biblical languages and were translating directly without real knowledge the words and forgetting the context of grammar using only a concordance as a source. My personal education led me to a better understanding of what was going on and where the error was. This was compounded by thousands of years of countless other learned translators coming to the same conclusion. So, how can self claimed ‘Spirit Led’ people get it wrong?
Maybe because most spirit lead people…Aren’t.
Most of those I’ve met who make this claim often are puffed up and without humility. They take a perverse pride in ignorance and seem to have a belief that their current spot in life is the highest they can go. That no further maturity or learning is to be needed or had. Personal revelations sans learning is all they needed so far so why worry. I’ve met some who operate in a vacuum it seems. They fail to realise that they are being subliminally influenced by others and at the least, their own base desires and ego.
I’ve sat in buildings controlled by pastors who’ve derided any form of education. My wifes own pastor said my kids should ’stay locally’ for schooling, which caused my eldest daughter grief as she has goals that the local universities can’t effectively assist her with. I’ve even spoken to a couple of pastors who instantly question where my learning came from…yet were unable to correct anything or teach anything other than their own opinions. I, as many here, have heard hatchet jobs, eloquently stated of course, on the bible where passages are taken out of context, contradictorary passages ignored just so the pastor can push an agenda…that’s Spirit Led of course. Of all the Wolf’s, erm WofF’s, I’ve heard, few if any state that seminary is desired. Some have even stated that all they learnt there was a waste of their time. It seems many think a prerequisit is a life of debauchery and drug use prior to a wowing Damascus Road experience (that is in many details not like the one Paul had at th beginning of his career) Of course, if it’s a money making scheme for them or will get them in good with some uppers, they’ll push it. My wife and about 80 percent of the congregation of the church she went to was involved in a church run bible school, that supposedly would have qualified them for pastoring…yet was nothing more than a trumped up Sunday School that you paid to go to (even to simply audit a class) where you learnt nothing more than what was already taught in regular services, questions were rarely answered let alone allowed to be asked and constant requests for more ‘love offerings’ were asked for as well as funds for guest speakers even though they were supposed to be paid out of the ‘tuition’.
I’ve sat in an all Black congregation on Bible study night (my Forest Gump moments) and loved every congregant there and felt very welcome yet feel extreme sorrow for them as it later was obvious that the pastor (who’s ‘under TD Jakes’) was pushing an obvious Oness agenda. Even others felt something wrong when the pastor couldn’t adequatly answer questions that arose over him trying to pound a round peg into a triune hole. Yet, lack of knowledge left them in the dark and unable to respond or learn. How could they leave when it’s told that the Spirit leads you where you need to go and you’re here so this is where you need to be and if you leave, bad things will happen to you as you’re going against the Spirit! Nice flawed logic and manipulation there, stills causes my wife extreme problems.
I think the real difference to this debate is formal vs informal education. With Seminary being formal and a ‘just do it and learn as you can and go’ being informal. I’ve walked away from a paid scholarship at the local university where I was in the honors program because I believed it was ‘GIGO, Garbage In, Garbage Out’, even though it could have doubled my income, as I desired to attempt to pursue a form of happiness over prosperity or the illusion there of. This is the discernment one needs and hopefully in the context of biblical learnings it’s what the Holy Spirit provides.
But, in conclusion, I see the parable of the Woman on the Roof during the Flood here. You all know the one. A lady prays to the Lord to be saved yet passes up the boat three times, drowns and in heaven asks why God didn’t save her and He replies, “Lady, I sent 3 boats!” She wanted a personal invitation delivered in person by an Angel it seems. If seminary training is a boat you need, wouldn’t you be open to the possiblity to take it? If there and it turns out to be sinking, wouldn’t you be open to the possiblity to get out and find another type of boat? And if seminary isn’t in Gods plans for you due to an obvious lack of time and funds, wouldn’t you still seek out any way for growth in the Word? Furthermore, if all You need is the Spirit and the Word in the bible…why go to Church and if you go to Church, what did you learn there? Wouldn’t sitting under a pastor mean you’re getting lessons distilled from a Man replete with his own biases, overt or subvert? Or, do you make exceptions that he’s Spirit lead but Seminary teachers aren’t?
Doesn’t the bible clearly state that the Spirit gives gifts as it sees fit.
As I’ve told my wife when she finally ‘woke up’ and left the den of thieves, there is no shame to being taken in by con men. More giften and educated people than you have fallen victim. There is shame in staying though once you know you’re manipulated and used. It’s one thing to be victimized when you express faith and trust, it’s another to write ‘Eat Me’ on yourself. It takes more strength to eat crow and face the truth and dig yourself out of a mess than it does to wallow in it, feel self pitty and hide behind pride.
If the Spirit leads you to Seminary, great. If it doesn’t, great. Hopefully either result gets you where you need to be. But, if you’re one day asked a complicated question I’d hope you’d have a good answer that you can back up with something other than “Well the Spirit told ME…” because where I come from that won’t cut it. Just as I’m sure many believe that if you’re proven wrong on one thing, doubt is cast on most everything else you may teach.
Thanks for putting up with my rant/ comments. Hope they were helpful.
First I’m just going to repeat exactly what I said in response to Melvin’s post that offered a different view of seminary education.
Eddie Long went to seminary. I was a member of Eddie Long’s church. Eddie Long taught that people should pay a full paycheck once a year in “First Fruits” and that same seminary (Interdenominational Theological Center - in Atlanta, GA) had him speak to their 2006 graduating class. Also, plenty of people and I mean PLENTY OF PEOPLE at Eddie Long’s church attend a seminary and I’ve found it to be the case at other mega-churches too. Creflo is critical of seminaries, but others like Long have not been and both teach the same lies.
I learned the errors of the prosperity doctrine from people never trained in seminary. I continue facing seminary trained pastors that tell me I’m “cursed” if I don’t tithe to them. The common lie about tithing is what pimps use as their foundation to start their followers down the path of the prosperity doctrine. (And frankly I’m starting to have trouble seeing the difference. Since both prosperity doctrine and traditional tithing doctrine teach that one must give to the church above all other. Give directly to the poor whatever you’ve got left after giving the demanded sum to the church.)
Just the same, plenty of seminary trained folks stand for the truth.
Personally, I encourage folks interested to attend seminary and wish them the best. Just the same I know plenty who never went and know the truth as well.
Many of the resources we use may have been developed by people who went to a seminary and some of the lies we’ve carried seem to have the same source. I don’t see seminary as the exclusive source for the future of the faith. I don’t see “study” as having to equate to “seminary”. And I don’t see seminary as something that should be scorned.
I stand on the truth of Jesus Christ. Something I’ve learned from both people with and without seminary education.
If some people at Creflo’s church would take a bibical intrepretation class, they would question some of the doctrine that is taught. They aren’t encouraged to go to seminary school. I was told Eddie Long received his doctorate degree a few months back and the graduation was at his church. At least those who are encourage to go a seminary have a choice than those who are discouraged from attending. Too many personal opinion injected in sermons that congregants take on without thinking for themselves.
Eddie Long went to seminary and graduated, but he did not complete a doctorate program. His doctorates are all honoraries. Well at least that was the case with him when I was there some years back. If he actually EARNED a doctorate just a few months back I’d be surprised. Are you sure it was not just another honorary? He’s received plenty.
As I mentioned though. Education was never discouraged by him. It was very much encouraged. Reading the Bible was encouraged as well. Somehow, we still fell for his false teaching in the middle of all that and many still do.
It almost appears that reading the Bible (as encouraged by some pastors, rather than study) has a ring to it.
It is afterward when they tell you to “read” or check the “text” of the Bible, it is essentially study what they have said. Not to analyze (Acts 17:11) for accuracies themselves.
I believe that is the difference, because I have heard that thrown around as well, and when people are given this instruction, they have already been indoctrinated with whatever the teacher’s interpretation is. That is pretty hard (especially in charismatic circles) to get away from.
So at this juncture, the eyes (albeit slighty) could be tainted with the perspective that has been propagated when one does check for themselves, and that is why relaince on the Holy Spirirt is so important.
We seek the Lord’s guidance in truth and falsehood the reality of matters will come to light.
hey Independent Conservative:
Just wanted to “interject” here for moment…i too was once at Eddie Long’s NB….several years back but thankfully “i escaped” (smile) and came to my senses….are you still in Atlanta? If so, have you found any really decent churches? Are you familiar with New Life? (Pastor Marilin Harris) and what do you think?
wannabereal, I’m no longer in that area and have since moved to TN. Just the same, if you asked me the same question here in TN I’d have as hard a time answering as you being there
.
I found the web site for the church you mentioned (New Life Baptist, pastor Marlin D. Harris).
I’ll say, whenever I see the words “phenomenal growth” on a church web site it sends up a warning flag in my mind. Because typically the places flocked to by the masses are not often where you find the full truth being taught. Their statement of faith page does not tell me much, but it appears they have the basics that they mention correct.
He’s not a kid any more, but he was ordained to preach at age 12
. I mean Jesus asked for the children to come to him, but I see preaching as a totally different matter.
And anyone who has followed my comments here knows my pet peeve is how churches focus their giving. The church history is very telling in that regard. Because they are into using “tithes and offerings” for what appeared to be the sole purpose of building a facility. And I’d venture to guess they use tithe enforcement now to fund a lot of things before any helping of the poor in the form of ministry. So in this regard, I take issue with them on the area I take issue with most churches across this country on. Telling people they are supposed to tithe and then using the money for lots of other things before considering the poor. (Christians give as the Lord leads and never were required to tithe. Jesus continually spoke of helping the poor.)
This also indicates they don’t have the clearest of pictures of how the new covenant works and what we are instructed to do under it.
Having said all that, I would not say to “stay away” from them. They’ve got several of the basics on point and could help plenty of people learn about Jesus. But I also would not say that I personally would be comfortable there, given I’d like to find a church that better understands the new covenant.
Eddie Long has received a doctorate degree. They have some bible college at his church that he graduated from. New Life, I hadn’t been there in a while, but the pastor left Thankful Baptist church where James Morton was pastor. He was the marriage counselor for his current wife and her former husband.
Creflo has a real doctorate degree now I hear. You never hear where it from though.
I’m just praying, this guy’s stuff is in a seminary bookstore for critical analysis ONLY.
This article said what I was trying to say much better than I said it. Bravo!!!
Melvin, I thought you were saying that seminary was detrimental. I was confused about your post bro. I was going to s