I got an e-mail the other night that proves my belief that no one is stuck in a pimp’s church. All you need to get out of the church is the willingness to stand up for the truth once you hear it or read it in the Bible. Yes, you will face ridicule. Yes, you will have to walk away from friends. And yes, you will sometimes have to be willing to stand alone, completely alone, depending on Jesus Christ for comfort and encouragement to get you through the onslaught.
In other words, Christian males have to be willing to be MEN, not just church going ninnies trying to experience their he-motions or hoping to keep their wives happy.
Here’s a letter from a reader, Mr. Woods, in Lewisville, Texas, recounting his most impressive travel from Apostolic Legalist to what sounds like a Reformed thinker. All of you who are beginning to realize you are not really following the God of the Bible, take note. Mr. Woods walked away. You can too. Just be ready to pay the price.
Mr. Jones,
I wanted to thank you for your site.
I don’t know if I am right sometimes, but I get into so many discussion with my wife, other family, and friends about many of the “teachers” you expose on your site.
I am an African American Male who was saved (or at least I think) in an Apostolic church in Benton Harbor, MI. I did have one of those rough backgrounds which most people in my city have (nothing out of the norm for the area). I hit a road block when I was praying in the field (I was in the Army for 6.5 years) training. For some reason I was getting more frustrated with things my church was teaching. I was in an Apostolic Church which also had characteristics of Seventh Day Adventism when it came to the dietary laws and the Sabbath.
I started meeting with the Pastor and questioned his position on tongues, dress code, and even the Sabbath and dietary stuff.
He became furious and rebuked me and laid hands on me because they believed I had a spirit of confusion. I’m not joking. Well I left and became a 5 percenter and followed it for over a year “Knowledging 120″ and all. I was brought to my knees by a very humbling event and went back to the Apostolic church.
Well in the mean time I got married and my wife, a professing Christian who, through the grace of God married me, was not particularly feeling this church. They encouraged me to divorce her because she was a tool of Satan, and since I loved her I left. While at Ft. Hood, Texas I found there were no sound Black churches within fifty miles. Eventually I left the Army and moved to Lewisville, Texas near Dallas. I started attending St. John’s Baptist Church. I was so frustrated spiritually that I fell back into the world and was kind of wilding out so to say. All of this changed in 2003 right around Christmas. I heart felt heavy and I prayed to the Lord. At that point, I swear I heard a voice asking me to “choose this days whom you will serve.”
At this point in time I was at a church called Redeeming Love Worship Center, a church “discipled” by T. D. Jakes, as you can probably tell by the name. I allowed my wife to sit under that ministry for about 2 years. I started to have the same problem I did earlier and began to question the Pastor on numerous things such as: why don’t we evangelize (although I know it is every believers responsibility)? Why don’t we teach books of the bible? why do we deviate from expository teaching of scriptures? Why are there people interrupting the service running around and being slain in the spirit. I talked to him and sent a two page e-mail about my concerns.
The pastor set up a meeting but then e-mailed me back and told me to just leave. He and his wife (the co-pastor) had decided not to answer my questions. I asked him why and he just said it would not benefit the church.
Well I wandered for some time until I met a guy named B.J. This led me to exposure to John McArthur and that led to John Piper, Tony Evans (who I sent an email about sharing the pulpit with Eddie Long) and other bible teachers. I started to read and eventually joined Denton Bible Church (www.dentonbible.org) and now I belong to Lifeline Bible (www.lifelinebible.org) a plant church of Denton Bible.
To make a long story short. I have spent the last couple of years following these ministries and exposing their error to family and friends. I have been called a sinner, divisive, critical, judgmental, and a false teacher. My brother-in-law told me I was going to hell for speaking against T.D.
Please pray for my household. I refuse to let that teaching penetrate my home. I expose it every chance I get and my wife just tunes me out most of the time (she had a real problem leaving the RLWC church in Lewisville). I just found your site and will use it as a resource (as a supplement to the scriptures) to help me expose these heretics. I am grateful of your ministry and let me know what I can do to help. God bless.
We see over and over again how the pimps abuse the people , sometimes physically, usually spiritually. And I’m willing to bet that most of the men in the churches, those who have any understanding of Scripture, are lacking the…uh…testicular mass to stand up and walk out. And they cover that lack of huevos with that stupid weasel line: “Who am I to judge?”
It’s always good to know someone else feels our pain. With me, my wife sees the issues and thank God we are in agreement that all these churches around us are pretty messed up.
I like where the brother says:
As in, he will use the SCRIPTURES first and foremost. Oh if we could get folks to do we’d all be in good shape!
I’m finding it funny just to call prospective churches to visit and ask them how they feel about tithing. I mean it’s like you asked them if a bomb is under the church! Usually the first person I ask can’t answer, and I’m simply either sending an e-mail on the church’s web sites or calling their general contact phone number. I basically end up with hearing a minister or the head pastor tell me they are all for tithing. Depending on how that goes I sometimes offer them the truth and sometimes I just say goodbye. But it’s interesting to ask such a basic question and it seems to be like a big stumper.
I live in TN, and the “Church of Chirst” has churches all over. They don’t tithe and I was told that they try to stick to the New Testament, but they’ve got so many other issues and act like they are the only folks going to Heaven.
I thought I had found a good Reformed denomination in the Presbyterian Church in America, but they also believe tithing is a sort of law.
It’s hard, but we must keep on keeping on…
Exactly. He’s going to use it as a supplement. Never take anybody’s word for it; not even mine, even though I know 87% of everything.
I know this has been debated before, but do you equate tithing with herecy??? That seems to go abit far….
(MN: I don’t equate the to as such. However, usually the people who teach the heresies listed on the site also teach tithing. Usually, the people who teach the heresies see tithing (I suspect) as a way of keeping the cash flow up. Those who deal in heresies are the ones who say “Can’t pay your rent and the tithe is due? Pay your tithe and watch God work a miracle!!” )
I agree with Melvin’s statements and will add that a church’s doctrine on tithing helps me see where their priorities are focused. If I want a church that teaches tithing, I can continue being a member where I am right now. But when you know the truth you seek out people who can help you walk in the truth. And the Primitive Baptist church I’m at now used to not tithe once upon a time and simply had people pay “dues” to manage the needs of maintaining the building. Members were left to use the rest of their money as the Lord led them to use it. Then the current pastor took over and changed that. I hear he faced some stiff opposition and still refused to listen to people who told him Christians should not tithe. So he’s heard the truth on the issue and still holds his position on the matter. There are other issues as well as this, but it’s an example of how he’s taken the church in the wrong direction.
With me the bottom line is this, I’m tired of building buildings.
I’ve helped Eddie Long build one of the largest church buildings in this entire nation and possibly the world. Matthew 25:31-46 shows that we will be judged by what we gave in terms of ministry to the poor, not how many buildings we could make and slap a cross on the front of them. This BUILDING effort results in those TITHES AND OFFERINGS going to the maintenance of buildings first and ministry to the poor comes second.
IMHO, teaching tithing is not heresy, but it does show that the church teaching it is focused on people giving their FIRST and probably LARGEST percentage of money TO THEM. Most folks, are not able to pay 10% to the church and then have much left over to use in helping give food and ministry to the poor. And many are trying to pay it who actually are THE POOR themselves and should not be paying it and were not even required to pay it in the old covenant. Because the tithing teaching request (demand) that all pay it.
Also, the issue of tithing shows if a church has a full working knowledge of how the new covenant works. Because of most churches having it wrong, my own view of the new covenant was impaired for most of my Christian walk. I can be most effective under teaching that has a proper understanding of how Christians should live. I’ve got a full family to think of. I have a choice to keep them from bad instruction and so it’s my duty to have them under the best teaching I can find. Sure teaching comes from me, but it helps when I’ve got a church with doctrine that backs me up.
Excellent post IC~perfectly stated.
“Tired of building buildings………..” says it all.
That building at New Birth is something to see. Haven’t seen anything like it before. It’s time to stop building buildings and start building people with the Word. I think it’s a keeping up with the Joneses kind of thing with these pastors of megachurches. Jumping up and down in church doesn’t build people with the Word. Giving spooky prophecies doesn’t build people with the Word. Singing with the latest Worship director doesn’t build people with the Word. Collecting first fruits and mission offering doesn’t build people with the Word. It’s time to build people with the Word of God. It’s hard for me to understand why pastors attend seminary schools, obtain doctor’s degrees and still don’t teach the Word or rather teach a watered down Word.
So true.
Or in Long’s case, slap some letters after your name after receiving honorary doctorate degrees.
I think for him it might be worse than even trying to keep up with the Joneses. I think he wants to prove that he’s far superior to the Joneses and have the Joneses working under him, so that he can call them his footstool.
He’s all about “Black Empowerment”, but he can’t seem to understand, that playing on Jesus in the name of earthly gain does not line up with Mark 8:34-37 or Matthew 19:24. He wants to have it both ways. He wants to play the role of financial wizard, who leads people to earthly “prosperity”, while claiming a Lord who told him not to be so concerned with material wealth.
And we see what happens when he claims to setup a charity. He took over $3 million for himself, while the needy were left wanting.
These are the testimonies that will change people’s hearts about the “pimps.” I live in Denton, TX by way of Memphis, TN. My husband and I love Denton Bible and have many friends that attend. I went to college with Dahati, the Lifeline Pastor. Tommy Nelson is an awesome teacher and we have friends (Babu and Sally George) that are missionaries serving in India.
About Pastor Stephen from Collierville (A suburb of Memphis) , I’m sure the real reason he took that post down is because one of his links to the “heresy hunters” had articles on a Texas C.O.G.I.C. Pastor and some recent negative (putting it nicely) exposure.
While I’m on here, I have to say to Melvin - yes, I appreciate this web site and agree with most of it. I do struggle with your methods. I believe there is a way that you can state the facts without the mud slinging.
The truth is that people are lost and there are a lot of “pimps” out there. I’m not asking that you “make nice” because people’s souls are hanging in the gallows. BUT, I am asking that you tone it down for the Kingdom’s sake.
When I first visited your website, I emailed you about this very thing. And you gave a great answer. I just really think that your website is more evangelistic than you may think.
The truth is that most black folk and folk in general have to overcome so much to hear the truth. We have come to church and checked out brains at the door for generations and what you have to say is foreign to the average Joe. I am always surprised at what Christians don’t know about the Christ that he serves.
Some folks truly love God and just have not “arrived” yet. It’s a process - line upon line and precept upon precept. God is merciful and I know that He didn’t reveal ALL of my ugliness, layers of sin, and ignorance ALL AT ONCE. To tell the truth, I was blind to many of the pimps very early in my walk with Christ. Not to the extreme of sending them money and going to their churches. But, so many “good” Christians around me were so in to them, I just assumed they were ok.
Your website might be the very thing that God uses to shed light. Sometimes the vibe here is “Lord, I thank you that I am not like the stupid little minions that think that TD Jakes is all o’ dat.” - Sound familiar?
I believe in righteous anger according to the Word. I agree that the “pimps” could care less about God. TD Jakes is Oneness Pentecostal and I don’t think that most of his folk even know what that is. Creflo Dollar is a crook. Women Pastors are not in line with the Word. But Jesus didn’t turn over the tables in the synagogue everyday. Remember Paul and Mars Hill. We really have to be wise (and truthful) when exposing these folks. Because some of the language used here can harden folk’s hearts more than open their understanding.
One of the most awesome things I have seen on this site is when you report on your “missions” trip to that conference and passed out info. I love it because you put your words and faith into action and I was praying that someone’s eyes would be open to the truth.
You will probably blast me by the end of the day. And I’m prepared for that. Be Blessed Melvin. Oh and some websites that are good references to my point of providing facts are http://www.carm.org, http://www.factnet.org, http://www.watchman.org, and http://www.smallings.com/Books/ProspENG.html.
Katina, why in the world do you think I would blast you? Your comment is calm, rational, and reasonable. And I understand what you are saying. I just don’t quite agree with it.
Certainly the site is evangelistic to the degree that I do present the truth of the Gospel. But is not an evangelistic site.
Certainly I do smash mouth apologetics. But I don’t expect everyone to move away from the pimps right now.
Again, this site is primarily to warn people away from the Alpha Pimps and their pimplings. It’s to warn people by making sure they understand the lies the pimps propagate and compare that to the truth.
And along the way, we usually get into some decent discussions. Like this one.
By the way, I’m not sure what you mean by “mud-slinging.” I state the fact, clearly and accurately. What, exactly, do you consider mudslinging?
Dear Melvin, shame on you
————————————————
(MN: Mike, I’m not ignoring you. Your comment is going to be a posting with that non-popcorn fixing Ms. Mav. It should appear later today. )
Thanks Melvin and Gary V. Maybe smash mouth apologetics is a better term. I appreciate both your comments and again, I’m not saying that we should make nice or ignore heresies. I just think, especially for those who don’t have a clue that they are under false teaching - that we should be wise in our comments so as not to drive them further into the darkness. Gary pretty much follows the same template.
(MN: I understand. But I think if you look at my comments, I really don’t jump on the people who follow these pimps - unless they are particularly snotty like a couple of peole I get every once in a while.
Hey, I am a dictator, but I am nothing if not gracious…most of the time. )
Katina, I understand exactly where you’re coming from. Thanks for sharing the input you did (same goes to Gary V and Melvin for theirs as well).
By the way, random statement: WHERE IN THE WORLD IS G2??!!! The man went from posting almost daily to practically non-existent. The man really did go into exile, I guess.
I’d at least think that he’d would’ve jumped in on the Pastor Stephen dialouge (especially seeing how heavy he is about sensible dialouge) and other recent posts, but the man has been MIA for quite awhile.
Don’t know whether anyone else feels the same, but I definately miss the man’s insight, even the occasional verbosness/ruminations included. Hope you didn’t run the man off pernamently (it did seem a bit too gruff on your part, Melvin).
Much love wherever you are, G2, and pray you come back to us soon!!
(MN: Sabbatical. And maybe a bit of hurt feelings. We did kind of brutalize him. I hope he will be back. )
No one is going to blast you Kat!! :LOL:
To the contrary, you raise some points that should be addressed periodically. It is important to remember not to make category errors when you are ascertaining how to address people.
Paul on Mars Hill was not addressing heretics or false teachers. He was addressing unbelievers. The distinction in dealing with these different groups is quite clear in Scripture.
Unbelievers are one category…..
Elders are another………
Babes in Christ…….
Teachers……..
All these groups, while having some commonality, are given distinctions as how they are to be handled.
False teachers and heretics are ALSO distinctly addressed, and the manner in which they are to be dealt with is given both in precept and example. You will not find in Scripture an example where an unrepentant false teacher is addressed with grace, or kindness, or gentleness, or soft words. There is a clear reason for this……….Paul commanded those who take the mantle of leadership and teaching to ALREADY BE SOUND in the faith, giving heed to sound doctrine BEFORE they begin to teach.
That is why we are commanded NOT to elevate the novice, but the learned. The pride of the novice is not only HIS undoing, but the potential undoing of those who follow him.
1Ti 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
1Ti 4:6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.
1Ti 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.
1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
1Ti 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
1Ti 6:1 Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and [his] doctrine be not blasphemed.
1Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, [even] the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
2Ti 3:10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 4:2-3 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
Tts 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
Tts 2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:
Tts 2:7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine [shewing] uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity.”
Now, the reason God makes a distinction between how the false teacher is to be handled as opposed to the other categories is simply because of the influence they have over His flock. Private sins are to be addressed privately……….public sins publicly. Again, there is no example in Scripture where an unrepentant false teacher is to be coaxed, or guided, or reasoned with gently. Their primary (meaning first here, not most serious) sin is of wresting the mantle of leadership without fulfilling the command to be sound in the faith and doctrine. We don’t give them space or time to get their doctrine right because they have the COMMAND to do this BEFORE they begin teaching.Now, after they have gained sway over the flock, is NOT the time to guide them into sound doctrine and away from damning error. That time has long passed.
James goes on to make clear that those who take unto themselves the mantle of the teacher are subject to greater judgement.
Jam 3:1 - 3 My brethren, be not many masters (teachers), knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation. For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same [is] a perfect man, [and] able also to bridle the whole body.
Now, the word “offend” here does not mean to hurt someone’s feelings……….it means to cause to stumble or sin. The harsh words toward the false teachers do not cause them to sin (they are rather BECAUSE of their sin), though they may well hurt their feelings. On the contrary, it is the words of the false teachers that cause the flock to sin…….which is why they are being addressed.
As to the harsh words, let us recall that Jesus called the false teachers of His day children of hell, hypocrites, whited tombs, blind guides, etc………not to mention the other writers with such terms as “evil beasts”, “ravenous wolves”, “wandering stars to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever”, etc.
Jesus used sarcasm to very good effect with His reference to the beam in the eye,blind leading the blind, the dead burying their own dead, etc.
Paul with his wish that those who insist upon circumcision would go “all the way” and just castrate themselves if they like it so much is a model of sarcasm. Elijah, when challenging the false prophets on Mt Carmel asking if perhaps their “god” was not answering because he was asleep, or perhaps on the toilet.
There are a multitude of other examples (which would make a good post someday……..note to sefl) which we usually miss because of the archaic language, which hides the sarcasm and humor that the culture of that day understood.
As pointed out earlier, there are are MANY examples of how we are to address false teachers……….NONE of which suggest gentle words, or subtle coaxing. Quite the opposite, there is an unbroken line of harshness and severity. Good reason for this as well………
The false teachers’ influence over the flock. The shepherd who had a wolf in the sheepcote didn’t seek to gently persuade the wolf to leave. He didn’t seek to coax him away from the flock. He didn’t minimize the mortal danger the wolf posed to his beloved flock.
The shepherd saw the wolf as he was…………predatory, of a nature unable to be touched by sympathy, and as a menace that must be stopped even if death was the result.
The shepherd’s tools were the sling and the rod…….ours is the Sword. We should have no more sympathy for the false teacher who has been confronted continually (without repentance) than for the wolf in the sheepcote.
In fact, the only means left that may possibly turn the false teacher and his defenders from their error is the sharp edge of the Sword, the blunt end of the rod of correction, and the harsh stones of the sling.
If that were not so, we must explain why God addresses them SO sharply,and SO harshly. After all, He above ALL desires their repentance.He ALONE knows the workings of the human heart. If those stinging words of rebuke did not work toward that goal of repentance, why then does the God of all Mercy use them?? Why does HE NEVER use the gentleness that we are so often admonished to use here??
God’s example is clear………..the teaching of Scripture is clear. Why do we think we know better how to handle the false teacher than God does??
Our primary responsibility is to the flock………not to the wolf. If God grants the wolf repentance, it will be through following His example of how the wolf is to be handled. These men and women (and those who support them) are living proof that the rod of correction wrapped in the soft cloak of gentleness and forebearance is not effective. They have been confronted with pleas and entreaties for YEARS, with no result except the hardening of their heats, enabled by a church too feeble and divided to implement Biblical correction.
Let them feel the end of the rod as the shepherd uses it against the wolf. It is the example of Scripture. It is the method God employs. If the Biblical method offends our sensibilities, perhaps it is our sensibilities that need to be adjusted rather than the Word??
Kat, you are a blessing……..thanks for your input!!
GaryV: YOU are a blessing!!! Thank God for your faithful, fearless, and consistent input of HIS unadulterated Word.
What r ur views on titheing? What does the bible say we should do in regards to it? If we don’t tithe how does the church continue to operate? Plz ans these questions and give me scripture thx.
Try this essay. Click here.
Melvin’s paper is one of many good summaries of why tithing not only is something not for Christians, but the very concept of “tithing” is not practiced today as it was instructed in the Bible to those who were supposed to do it.
But beyond that, I think followers of Christ need to remain aware of what they should be giving to in the first place. See Matthew 25:31-46. The main focus is to be giving to those in need and using the opportunities presented to tell them about Jesus if they don’t know him. Notice Jesus specifically outlined what he will judge us on and it had nothing to do with building a structure, adding to a building, paying for the upkeep of facilities and things of that sort. He spoke of us helping the needy ourselves.
In the New Testament there are cases of leaders of a church redistributing money to the poor, but the focus remained on the poor. Sure we are supposed to consider the welfare of those who labor in the Gospel and having a facility for worship is nice to have, but the giving after Jesus was resurrected focused mostly on his teaching of helping those in need. Ananias and Sapphira were telling a lie that regarded money being given to help the poor and it resulted in their deaths, Acts 5:1-11.
So even when we get past the matter of tithing, we must ensure that we are engaging in that type of giving and you must allow the Lord to help you regarding how much you give, when and to whom.
And when you read about how the tithe was used by those who paid it, they gave to those who did not have an inheritance (Levites), widows, the fatherless and strangers, Deuteronomy 14:22-29.
And notice how Jesus scored the scribes and Pharisees for abusing widows. Read all of Mark 12. You might notice that the widow he cited putting money into the treasury (which was not the treasury used by his ministry) was actually someone being fleeced by the priests of that time. I’ve noticed that only the NIV mentions that was the “temple” treasury.
Again, not to say you should not give to the advancement of the ministry of the Gospel, but many of us need a priority check.
We are not required to tithe today; the concept of tithing is an Old Testament concept that also was laid at the cross. See Luke 5:37, there are no references to tithing in the New Testament because the responsibility of aiding the poor is the individuals see 1John 3:17. I believe Melvin wrote a wonderful post about it check it out.
I’m not sure if anyone is familiar with this Pastor from the Bahamas, Myles Munroe. But, Villiam11 fowarded to my attention some information about this cat. Its alot of information, but he appears to be another Pastor/businessman in the pulpit who seems to use the scriptures to cover his true intent for ministry, and that is making money. Here are two websites that he sent me, that will offer some insight into what this cat is about. Low and behold, dude has already hooked up with Benny Chicken (i mean Hinn)….
http://www.bfmmm.com/files/Effective%20Living%201.pdf
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/MylesMunroe.html
hopefully these links work.
Yes, He has become pretty big. He’s been on TBN for years now. His show usually comes on pretty late on TBN and I think he is on the Word Network as well. He has really gotten in good with the false teachers here.
Blessings,
BK
TOG: Myles Munroe has been around for many, many years—beginning w/TBN. He is extremely well educated, having one each (in some cases, two) EARNED Bachelor, Master, AND Doctorate degrees. His philosophical handling of the Bible is full of logic, though he claims to be Spirit-filled. Perhaps this weight of degrees, accolades, and “hobnobbing” with “superstars” of the “church” have long ago begun to mar one of the gifts God gave him originally—the Spirit of understanding.
Yes Mr Munroe is big over here, well known cat. He is good buddies with the pimps, including the pimps here.
This is a great testimony this is confirmation of your call brother Melvin . Unfortunately their are so many people in the church today that just arent thinking. I’m glad brother Woods is being led by the Spirit and not the flesh. The flesh ticklers appeal to mans natural desires and appetite Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Thats why these guys are so popular The word clearly teaches us that the Spirit will reveal truth to us which means alot of the people in these churches just arent saved or they are so carnal and steeped in tradition they just dont care what the Spirit has to say. So many people think that if you arent induced to jump holler or sweat then the “Spirit aint here ” the Spirit is also involved in teaching and guiding us to be more like Christ not like the bishop or the pastor. On a side note perhaps Mr. Woods search for good church may not have taken so long if he had just looked for a good bible teaching church not a “black church” a term I do not like I’ve been looking for a long time and have never seen “black church in the bible even in the ebonics translation (relax guys i’m black)
Brother you are correct on the “black church” thing. I just wanted to go to a church that had some culture relevance (urban culture and the problem it faces) which most predominately white churches don’t address; however, thank God for Denton Bible, and Plumbline they were life savers. Once our Pastor Dhati started Lifeline it was on and has been since.
Ok,
So I attended a predominantly white messianic church for 4 years. I’m black, but by black church I meant pre-dominantly black. BTW, we were the only blacks at that church and left a pre-dominantly black church full of liturgy and crazy antics because we just wanted the Word.
Anyway, God has since moved us to a pre-dominantly black Bible teaching church and we still work closely with the messianic one.
I hope this helps for those who are scrutiizing every word. My husband and I have been married for 10 years and blackness or the lack thereof has never been a deciding factor for where we fellowship.
But you know there are blackisms that pervade pre-dominantly black churches and have been adopted by white folks all for the fattening of everyone’s money bags. You got your Paula Whites and such that will apply the stereotypical “blackisms” to get the pass to appeal to the Black Christen proper.
I have said the word Black in this post more times than I have said in 2006. I hope you get the point.
Ok, so I’m pregnant and scatter-brained. Thought I said “black church” in my post, but I read again and I didn’t. Sorry jcrep32.
HEY!!!Congratulations Kat!! Let us know when the little one comes along……….
Truthfold thanks for posting these sites - Ref: Miles Munroe - These GUYS ARE OUTRAGEOUS.
They have no knowledge of the Truth , it’s very, very sad, but it’s the last days and Apostasy is here, Ye shall know the Truth and the Truth (that you know) will make you free, Yippy, yipps - Liberty in the Spirit it’s a very peaceful place.
Born Again Believers I appeal to you let the Anointing in you TEACH YOU ALL TRUTH, please read AND STUDY THE word - DO NOt believe Man’s report.
I plea with you, God say if you lack wisdom Just ask him.
Grace and Peace to you my brother and your family. You email sounds like you have been through alot within the elements of “church as usual”. I encourage you to continue to seek God at all times and not rely on exposing hipocrities to fuel your spirit.
I made the same mistake and got caught in this website as well. The Lord began to show me that while I was focusing on exposing ministries, and was not fulfilling the Great Commission. By focus and the Jakes, and the Creflo error in faith, we devote too much time studying these issues, and not enough time in the Word.
Remember that “he how exalts himself will be humbled….(matt 23:12) Focus my brother on your own Relationship with God and winning the lost. This site is almost like watching the news sometimes. It takes our focus off of the Word of God and focuses on what man is doing with it. Even though these things true and it helps some people(hopefully) see ministries for what they really are, I still believe that we should focus on the task at hand-THE HARVEST.
Satan wants to spilit your household- Don’t let it happen! Ask the Lord for his gudiance on finding a doctrinally sound ministry in your local area and he WILL lead you there. Churching hopping, as it is called, only leads to confusion.
Be Blessed
Brother, Christ and Paul and Peter and Jude etc, etc would disagree with you. They ALL addressed false teachers.
Furthermore, the absurd contention that exposing the false teachings keeps one out of the Word is a logical contradiction. One must be IN the Word, a STUDENT of the Word, to discern Truth from error. The entire reason folks don’t recognize the wolves is because they ignore the Word. We fill that gap.Your assessment makes no sense.
To ignore those in the clutches of error to “win the lost” is hardly love toward the brethren, is it?? Why cannot BOTH be done as the Word demands??Why abandon the Body of Christ to the wolves just to bring in new believers for the wolves to devour??
Or, should we “win the lost” just to send them into a church culture that celebrates the pimps, but now with no one to warn them because you decided (contrary to the Word) that this ministry is no longer needed??
Just because (for whatever reason) YOU weren’t fulfilling the Great Commission while doing your Biblical duty to guard the flock, doesn’t mean WE are following in your steps.
Not only were you caught. Apparently you keep coming back.
I know, this place is like Chinese food. You eat a big meal and just a little while later, you want to dine again.
It can have that effect on people sometimes.
Hey everybody check out the church history teaching by Pastor Tom Nelson of Denton Bible Church. It is excellent to say the least. You should be able to find it at internetarchive.com. I hope that’s the right web address. You will discover why this brave brother joined this fellowship.
The only thing I don’t agree with is I think they are Pre-Trib. I’m pre-wrath. Not a salvation issue at all, because we’lll understand it better by and by.
Didn’t quite know where to place this, but I just wanted to share a response for my family here at PP in the event you are hit with the “who are you to judge” question.
Here goes.
Answer: I am a rational human person who is aware of certain fundamental principles of logical and moral reasoning. I think I’m qualified.
Then deliver the knockout blow!!!!
Your claim that I have no right to make Judgments is itself a judgment about me. Your claim therefore is slef-refuting.
From the book “Relativism: Feet firmly planted in mid air.” They have some good responses in here.
I will share another.
You shouldnt force your morality on me.
When confronted with this statement, simply ask, “why not?”
Do this for two reasons, one it’s simple and easy to remember, two it makes the challenger justify his objection, putting the ball back in his or her court where it belongs.
They are going to have a hard time explaining why you shouldnt impose your views without imposing theirs on you, to which you then respond “if I can’t force my views on you, why is it ok for you to force yours on me?”
So the “who are you to judge” issue is easily defeated.
Just thought I would share with you guys this morning.
binks
Binks, I recommend that book to EVERYONE. Koukle shows what critical thinking SHOULD look like.
BTW………..do you listen to the Stand To Reason podcast?? Great stuff!!
Have you seen this? Beer, Brats, Bible, and Bad music.
http://www.christianpost.com/article/20070130/25498_Mixing_of_Beer,_Church_Contested.htm
(MN: Oh yeah. I saw the article about a month ago and intended make a posting about it. But you know how easily I get distracted with shiny things. Well, here it is in all its glory. Incidently, notice the effect on church growth with the Journey. )
Wow GSRH, it seems that they are giving the term “drunk in the spirit” a new meaning.
I may have to go visit just to see this. Field trip. I can’t wait to see which Mega-Church pimp follows his lead.
Yeah Mel thanks u inspired me…..since i’m broke i can’t afford my own website so i did a myspace page http://www.myspace.com/dontbdum2
Calvin, thats pretty nice what you did with the site. I’m going to check out those links when i get a chance.
Iv’e looked at this site and the people on this site and I have come to the conclusion that the this sites creator and the people on this site make a joke and a mockery out of some of the sins and wrongdoings of today’s churches. Some of the points that are made are valid and some of them are not. I just dont think it is Christlike since most of the people on here claim to be Christian to have so much enjoyment out of people being led astray. I think we should examine ourselves when we seem to be so happy about talking about someones wrongdoings.
Where is the enjoyment in seeing people led astray? Your comment makes no sense. Had Melvin, Gridiron, GaryV, MrsMaverick, TOG and co. enjoyed seeing people being led astray then why would they expose the snakes?
Examine yourself buddy, this sites purpose is clear to see….exposure of the pimps, not for ones enjoyment but so that the saints can see for themselves the deceit within the Christendom for themselves and flee the pimps. You have it all twisted my friend
James could you please explain to us Christ like? What is Christ like? How should we be?
Why is it so hard for people to brutally honest? The bible clearly tells us to be aware of false prophets and groups of people want others to accept this garbage that some of these people pass off. Wake up! Please.
James - I don’t post on this site often, but I consider myself to be what you refer to as one of “…the people on this site…”. I can tell you for sure that I don’t make a joke or make a mockery of what you yourself refer to as “…some of the sins and wrongdoings of today’s churches.” I don’t think anyone on this site does that. I agree with Gary V - there’s no fun in seeing people led astray by false doctrine and false teachers. It hurts me to my core to see and to hear about people who have received false “prophecies”, people who blame themselves for being sick because they think they don’t “have enough faith” to be healed, people who have relapses in sickness think that they didn’t have enough faith to “sustain their healings”,people who “sow a seed because they have a need”, people who think they create their own circumstances simply through the words they speak, and the list goes on. (All of this stuff is a result of some of the foolishness that is being passed off as sound biblical doctrine.)
When all is said and done, this stuff is not a joke and I would venture to assure you that no one on this site thinks it is. The Apostle Paul said to “…mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.” To me, that’s what is happening on this site. Folks call a spade a spade. It’s not about being happy talking about someone’s wrongdoings. It’s about recognizing the damage that this stuff (false teaching) does to people in the Body of Christ and pointing it out so that blind eyes might be opened and that people might be set free. Peace.
Beautifully said Robin…which makes me wonder just WHY you don’t post more. Please reconsider that, OK??
Thanks GaryV and MrBiblesBibles. I promise I will consider posting more often.
Peace!!!!
Kudos!
I second what GaryV said…you should post more. Couldn’t have said it any better
Hey MrBiblesBibles………….didn’t you USED to be MrBiblesBiblesBibles?? Didn’t think we’d notice, did ya??
LOL - I hope you don’t mean as in Bibles123?
I just want to thank God for allowing sites like this one. It really helps me to know that I’m not alone.
I just wanted to know if it is an attack on Christian MEN to stand up and be men. I began to have questions about certain teaching going on in my church and my wife swears straight up that I’m in the wrong. I left the church and it was causing havoc in my life.
I love my wife and kids, I also love my family members. But when I left the church, they totally cut me off. Right now it seems that the pastor and the co-pastor have more influecence over my wife. All I ask is that she read for herself.
I know the pastor’s family well, but I had disagreements with some teaching. Instead of talking about it, I was labeled as a demon or not being on one accord with the church.
Being in this position of being cut off by family and not trusted by your wife is very hurtful.
BJ search the Scriptures my brother and you will find the answers to your problems. if you need assistance John Mcarthur has an awsome question and answer section that on his site that he has already done most of the home work for us, especially when it pertains to heresy within the church. he has been labled by most in the word of faith (wof) circle a heresy hunter. here’s the site. http://www.gty.org/resources.php?section=issues remember even though you trust a teacher you must still check the Holy Scriptures for yourself. once you have the Biblical facts ask for a sit down discussion with your Pastor to discuss your findings. if he is unwilling he is in direct violation of the Bible as we are told to strive for unity and restoration “Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.” (KJV) the Blue letter Bible is an in-vauable tool you can pull up scriptures with one word and you can also get the Hebrew or greek meaning for words or whole Scripture passages. you can also add audio and listen to the bible being read as you read along, and they have a variety of commentaries, and different Bible versions. best of all its FREE! everyone should check it out it really is great. http://www.blueletterbible.org/index.html
may the God of Peace be with you and cause unity to reign in your home and lead you to a place where you may be nurtured and fed a proper diet of the meat of the Word. in Jesus name Amen! I love you my brother.
God Bless ya’ll!
I’ve been there BJ………..so have many of us here. Stand strong, be constant in the Word and prayer. Don’t fight……..explain. Don’t argue……..love. But above all, DON’T COMPROMISE. God will honor you.
Hey Gary…. albeit pithy….wise words. Wise words indeed. Amen.
I totally understand with regard to your wife BJ. Gosh, it seems so common-place. I had no idea. Maybe the emotions of women are appealed to??
I actually attended a different church last Sunday, and to say the least the Pastor was “different” & not in a good way.
He was an obvious WoF preacher. It is crazy at how the scriptures are masked in an attempt to get the “speaking life” message across.
I tuned out. I just could not take it anymore. They were lies.
For example he took John 9:31 , and applied it to us as the righteous and that God hears us (we are to act as God on this earth…do what he would do) in repeating the scriptures verbatim, and looking for scripture promises concerning your situation ….
This actually (I learned) reverts back to John 9:16 as the Pharisees were rebuked for their blindness of whom God hears…by a man formerly blind.
Once out of church I was told that I was judgemental, negative, and un-loving.
I elaborated on men with whom I believe honestly preach God’s Word. But yet, I wasn’t making progress because I was essentially arguing over points of his message, which was a horrible trap to fall into.
We disagreed terribly. Nonetheless, I researched the preacher yesterday because I knew what he was saying was incorrect and I needed a detailed background on him.
Come to find out, he sat under Fred Price for 10-11 years before starting his ministry. I was shocked. I knew the way he spoke was extremely familiar.
Do this because “Jesus isn’t here to do it”………
The differences have since been cleared, but yet I still feel an impasse. I wouldn’t desire to waste time and “hang out” listening to a preacher that I disapprove of.
Nonetheless….here good seminary training to sharpen one would be of a tremendous help especially for the wife.
She has desired to attend (Talbot School of Theology at Biola) and I am at the point where I am encouraging her more than ever for the formal training.
Not to mention myself at some point.
BJ dont feel alone, My mother, sister, and her family are all still at the COGIC church that I left, and what is really hurtful, my mother loved to hear me preach when I was there, but when it comes to facing certain issues, now that I’m not there, they rearely listen. They havent cut me off, but I could stand on christ alone, but it hurts, because you see them not even entertaining the truth. On issues like the bible in truth, on political issues on moral issues like abortion, they dont listen at all. That’s what kills me, because I try to give them a view from biblical perspective. My wife has stood with me, mainly because in the beginning I established who would be the spiritual leader in the home (not saying that you didnt, just saying that’s what I did) But our ex-pastor had a major hold on all the people. And I know what you went through because I couldnt go along with what was going on either. Continue to stay in God’s word, if God is for you, who can be against. Pray for your wife, and continue to lead, and show the error, once learned it’s hard to ignore, God will make it work.. Hope I could encourage
binks
BJ. Don’t give in brother. They almost killed the Reformers for challenging the “Church”. Most of us who God has graced to break free from the “Charasmatic” (I don’t mean all just the the ones listed here and their minnie me’s) movement have had some type of experience. You must understand that a lot (I didn’t say all so don’t stone me) women are extremely emotinal and these teachers (false as they are) play on that emotion. The thing is we have allowed our spouses to be under this type of leadership and since submission isn’t taught in these churches (unless it is the pastor and the co-pastor) we have going to have pray them out. If God isn’t sovereign we could be in for a long journey.
But it’s really tempting to try to PRY them out.
I understand you (Mr. Jones) when the roadblocks came with your quest for truth. Giving you the benefit of the doubt concerning these situations you expressed in the e-mail my only constructive critisism is this:
Right or wrong on the stance of the preachers that frustrate you, first and foremost pray for these men of God. (MN: Who says they are men of God? I think there is sufficient evidence to at least doubt the salvation of many, if not most, of these wolves.)
Pray with a heart that would let the Lord open the eyes of the false prophets or those who just happend to go go astray. Even those who so happen to have an approach that may be in the will of the Lord but you just don’t understand. It happens. While you do that, I will pray for you, hoping your quest for truth proves fruitful and YOU can use your knowlege to better the people of God… (MN: Sure - I can and do pray for them. But just like I warn the parents about the child molester until the police arrest him, I will continue to warn you about the pimps. )
I watched this site for the first time today and I was suprised to see such a site. I always had the same feelings towards preachers on the tv etc. and I attend the victory outreach church. you critisize a lot of artist/preachers/pastors/churches around this site here. And everybody has a point and its true that some churches are very money orientated and such. All i have to say is that everybody will have to stand before christ one day. And everybody will be rewarded for their acts they did on earth. The churches who teach fales doctrines will have to bring that before god, the artist who shows vanity will have to answer to god, the preachers and so on and so on.
I think god moves through the vertain peoples. Many peoples come to christ through the ones like tonex and td jakes and such. And they will be rewarded for that, but god will also bring judgement upon them. Just like he will do trought you and me. So we are looking this on a earthly basis and want everybody to be perfect christians. I do to but not everybody is there and everybody has issues and problems. Some have problems with vanity and money. But we can also have totally differnt problems. We are not the ones to judge but god. If you want to say that jd jakes is a money hungry pastor along with 50 other pastors then just pray for them. jesus says pray for your enemies so why is it alsmost lookin like this is going towards hate. Also to melvin. You are doing a great thing exposing some of the obscure behaviours of the men og god in the picture. But just pray for them. Call them counsel them dont sit around here do something about it except being a rebel and other people complaing to. Jesus was beaten up and died on the cross for us, and we ar here in the comfort zone sitting here and waiting for somebody to tell those people. Maybe god showed this to you because HE wants You to do something about it.
Im sorry What i have to say could contain a whole book but conclusion is that pray for the ones that god placed abopve you, if you dont agree with them tell them and discuss it. If they do not wish to listen read the scriptures that prove them wrong. If that doesnt work then cry out to god like a real christian would and he will tell you what to do
God bless you ..Thank you and greetings from a 17 year old boy who is having his struggles with christianity right now, and is not saying this because he is so close with the lord right now, on the contrary, but because he knows this from his build up fundemant and foundation. You have o have a solid foundation to work on and that is jesus and the bible so start from that in stead of trying to prove everybody wrong. I you are right and you live by those rules, do not worry, god will bless you in the afterlife, and he will deal with the christians who did things wrong. And even if they are dong things wrong, if they truly are christians like they say they are,then god would have todl them a long time ago to stop what they are doing and to crusify their flesh
Don Ceder
Don Ceder
Don
Hi Don!!
Brother, the problem with your letter is that it has no foundation in Scripture. Not even a little.
So…………a challenge. Back up your assertions with Scripture. I will gladly respond in kind.
The Bible states repeatedly that we are to judge those who teach the Word of God. We are commanded to test what they say against the Word. We are commanded to publicly rebuke those who persist in error.
So, not only is the approach you suggest we take unBiblical and in error, it displays a shocking lack of care for the weak and young in God’s flock. You contend that we should just pray for them, keep our mouths shut, and allow those who don’t know better to perish into this sewage.
What should we care…………..right?? Just let God sort it out. Don’t expose error and sin, that’s God’s job.
Wrong……….so, defend your assertions. If you are correct, you can do so Biblically( in proper textual, historical, and linguistic context).
I look forward to your reply.
Don are you serious? I don’t ever discount young people for being young. I’m only 31. However, I think that your level of maturity (along with your scriptural knowledge and understanding) is evident in the way you approach this subject. In Galatians 1:8,9 Paul writes under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that the preacher of “any other gospel” is to be accursed. God was so serious that He had Paul write it twice. Every preacher on this site preaches another gospel. Therefore no one can be brought to salvation by them when what they preach is a false gospel. Whenever someone does come to true salvation while in these ministries, it is usually through a true messenger that comes to them or their own personal study. Then they eventually leave these ministries. E