(MN: If you are here to find out the truth, here it is: Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Him. The Bible is the Word of God. It is appointed to men but once to die and after that the judgment. You are saved from condemnation through faith, not works. God saves you through grace, by the washing of the Holy Spirit, not through works lest any man should boast. This is the truth.

Judge Not, it’s interesting that you only posted the “other side’s” arguments. Now go to an inerrantist side, read their arguments, compare themto the Contradictarians and decide which one you want to believe. In other words, if you are sooooo interested in the truth, YOU dig for it. As I have said before, this site is not here to convince you about the inerrancy of the Bible. It is here to warn those who accept its inerrancy about the pimps and pimpettes who misuse and twist the Bible. If anyone out there wishes to discuss this with him be my guest. I will send you each other’s e-mail address. I am not going to dedicate anymore bandwidth to it. Is that clear enough for you Judge Not? )

The answers to the difficulties and seeming contradictions are easliy found………..that is, if one is genuinely searching for them, rather than pushing an agenda.

There’s no reason to present this stuff here. If you are interested in Truth the answers are available. If you are not interested in Truth, no answer will suffice anyway. Do some HONEST research.

Interestingly, the city of Ninevah(which was rediscovered in the 19th century) was found under a tell called Nabi Yunus by the indigenous Arabs. Nabi Yunus is Arabic for “The Prophet Jonah”.

And if Jonah was swallowed by “a great fish”, and not a whale, why would Jesus say when referring to Jonah:

“For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the WHALE’S BELLY; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth” (Matthew 12:40, KJV)?

(MN: I guess the Holy Spirit didn’t translate the Greek for you, or at least He didn’t do a very good job of it. The word translated as “whale” in the King James, is κῆτος (KEETOS is a transliteration of the Greek). And the word actually means (according to one of the Giants on whose shoulders I stand “A great fish, a sea monster.” It does not mean “whale”. In all probability, the folks in Israel likely never saw a whale and wouldn’t have known what one was. )

As for me………..not interested. Heck, it would just be a Google contest, since he’s going to Google the alleged contradictions, and I’m going to Google the solutions.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled Pulpit Pimps………

I think I decided. If Judge Not wants to do battle with GaryV, I can relay their e-mail addresses to each other or they can go over to CARM or a couple of other places and have at it.

Sorry Judge Not. I guess it ain’t gonna happen here at Pulpit-Pimps.org.

Those who worship him must worship him in spirit and truth. I love that verse. If I order cake AND ice cream, am I just going to get cake?

You don’t believe the Bible is the final authority, the inspired infallable word of God? You don’t have to attend a seminary to think that is just silly. The Bible isn’t a la carte. I hope you don’t do your taxes like you follow the Bible, cause Uncle Sam is gonna come knockin’.

I’m sorry you feel the love is not mutual…………I assure you that is not the case. This is not a fight against YOU as a person, but a contention against your ideas. There’s a vast difference between the two. I consider you a brother………but I cannot agree with your doctrine here, nonetheless.

GaryV,
you’re still missing my point.

First of all, i’m not presenting here my truth, i’m pointing to YOUR Spirit to show you everything you need to know. Because, as i said earlier, many times it’s very difficult to get God’s Word right. So you can be led by the Holy Spirit and still make mistakes, like i did in my post. And surely, that doesn’t make me being misled by the Spirit.

(GaryV) The dichotomy in this statement is the very crux of the issue. IF you are being led by the Spirit (and let me be clear that the verb for “led” in this verse means “to lead by laying hold of, and this way to bring to the point of destination: of an animal”.

This is important……..for it’s NOT being “led” as through an impulse, or an “inner witness”. It’s being LAID HOLD OF AND CARRIED, as a shepherd carries a lamb. In this case, there CAN BE no room for error since the Holy Spirit is literally CARRYING you along, negating any impulse you may have to go elsewhere.

The very verse so often cited as a pretext for the view you present is actually the strongest possible proof against that view.

(Anon)Yes, i do believe the Bible only contains the Word of God.
Consider John 1:1:

“…the Word was God.”

Or how about John 1:14?

“The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.”

As you all well know It’s talking about Jesus. Jesus is the true Word of God, not the Bible! When Jesus abides in you, you no longer need the Bible to teach you - Jesus will teach you!

(GaryV) Again, you neglect to consider the WHOLE COUNSEL of God on the subject. You cannot take select verses that buttress the point you are trying to make, and form doctrine from them.

I’m not saying Jesus and the Holy Spirit don’t teach……..I;m saying that the same Word you cite for your narrow view ALSO sets teachers in the Body, with NO indication whatsoever that this gift is ever negated for the mature. You neglect to consider John 17, where Jesus says this…….”Jhn 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.”

Jesus leaves no hint that the Word of Truth is ever left in the dust by the Spirit……..especially considering that the Spirit is the AUTHOR of the Word.

(Anon)”Abide in me, and i IN you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me” (John 15:4).

(GaryV) Absolutely, but that is not the subject in question. The subject is whether the Word becomes redundant and therefore useless, not whether we should maintain relationship with the Son.

(Anon)”…When God… was pleased to reveal His son IN me so that i might preach… i did not consult any man…” (Galations 1:15-16).

(GaryV) Context is king when interpreting Scripture. Paul was an Apostle……..a closed and unique office. Is this EVER presented as the norm in Scripture?? Of course not…….this sort of thinking is the impetus behind these idiotic “Prayer Hankies” being sent out by the pimps. Just because the Bible records the UNIQUE experience of a man in an office CLOSED for 2,000 years, does not mean that we can use this as a guideline for our own circumstance.

If Paul was indeed advocating that we are to folow his unique example, in his CLOSED OFFICE of Apostle, you must explain what he ACTUALLY taught to those he discipled.

1Ti 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to READING, to exhortation, to DOCTRINE.

1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the DOCTRINE; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

1Ti 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the WORD AND DOCTRINE.

2Ti 3:16 ALL SCRIPTURE [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound DOCTRINE; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

There are a multitude of other verses that could be cited, but there are 2 things evident.

1) Though talking here to those who are TEACHERS, Paul NEVER makes the SLIGHTEST inference that they are to leave off the Word in favor of the “inner witness”.

2)Paul NEVER gives instruction in the Word that ANYONE was to follow the path God chose for him, because it was indeed unique to his office. To the contrary, there is nothing else given except that these teachers (whose office Paul certainly didn’t seem to want to go away) TRAIN UP DISCIPLES IN THE WORD. And again, no mention of eschewing the Word in favor of an “inner witness”.

There is good solid Biblical reasoning behind this. You ARE a New Creation, but you STILL HAVE a fallen nature to contend with,and a finite understanding of all things. The Word is then the tool the Spirit uses to allow you to judge revelation. Without that tool, we have no objective standard to judge revelation by. We are to “test the spirits to see whether they are from God.” That is the purpose of the Word, and we see nowhere in Scripture where this paradigm is abandoned.

(Anon)”…Christ IN you, the hope of glory” (Colossians 1:27).

Again, “glory” here is not an abrogation of the commands of Paul to study the Word. It has nothing to do with the subject at hand, as if studying the Word is not glorifying to God.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

(Anon)I could go on and on citing the verses that clearly show truth can only be found within us, but seems like it won’t make sense to you anyway.

It’s not that it doesn’t make sense. I FIRMLY believe that we rely upon the Spirit……….but the Spirit tells us to confirm and test revelation BY THE WORD. Joseph Smith had an “inner witness” too. So did Mohammed………and Carles Taze Russell (JWs)…….and David Koresh, etc, etc, etc.

The dangers of the paradigm you suggest are evident, and they violate the commands of Scripture.

We must take the WHOLE COUNSEL of God on any given subject, or we open ourselves to deception, error, and ruin.

(Anon)Now, concerning my statement that Jesus didn’t believe much of what is written in the Old Testament, but used it symbolically…

It doesn’t appear to be so strange if you read that Jesus Himself said in Matthew 13:13-17 and Mark 4:11-12 that He speaks in parables so that men couldn’t hear the truth of what he was saying literally. We can’t even take some stories in the Gospels literally.

(Gary) You don’t read far enough in the text.

Mat 13:10 ¶ And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because IT IS GIVEN UNTO YOU to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is NOT given.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Mat 13:16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for THEY SEE: and your ears, for THEY HEAR.
Mat 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous [men] have desired to see [those things] which ye see, and have not seen [them]; and to hear [those things] which ye hear, and have not heard [them].

You see………..in keeping with SCRIPTURE, all Jesus was saying was that….

1Cr 2:14…… the natural man (the Pharisees) receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Jesus went on to EXPLAIN to the DISCIPLES what ALL the parables meant. He wasn’t obscuring His teachings to everyone, He was simply not casting pearls before swine. His disciples were taught PRECISELY what the parables meant.

(Anon)”Then Jesus was led up into the wilderness by the Spirit to be tempted by the devil” (Matthew 4:1).

You know the story. But now, let’s read verse 8:

“Again, the devil taketh him up into an axceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them.”

Needless to say, there’s NO mountain in the whole Earth high enough to let you see “all the kingdoms of the world”; what is going on here is a parable.

(Gary) You err due to the wooden literalism of the way you see Scripture. Where does the TEXT say that seeing the kingdoms was due the height of the mountain??

It doesn’t………..He was led to a mountain to be tempted, not to see the kingdoms. He simply was on the mountains when He saw this vision. The Bible is FILLED with figures of speech, and colloquialisms, used just as WE use them. If I tell you it’s raining cats and dogs, you don’t take a wooden literal interpretation and think that household pets are ACTUALLY falling from the sky,Do you??

The people of the Bible were no different than we, they used such devices in language and writing just as we……..there is no warrant for the way you read Scripture. Wooden literalism is just as bad as spiritualizing every passage. These were just people, using language just as we do. Let the context dictate the interpretation.

(Anon)How about the idea of Jesus wandering in the wilderness of His mind, fighting with the religious ideas (the devil, that is) attacking Him?

(Gary) Why?? Wasn’t there an ACTUAL Jesus?? Isn’t there an ACTUAL satan?? Isn’t there an ACTUALwilderness in Israel?? Why do you spititualize these passages when the context does not warrant it??

And, why do you not continue this line of reasoning??

Mat 4:11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

“OH……the bad thoughts left Him, and the angels represent the good thoughts that He had after the bad thoughts left. And “ministering” means that the good thoughts made Him feel better.”
Mat 4:12 ¶ Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee;

“Well, John represents the kingdom……..and “prison” represents the narrowmindedness of man, which imprisons the kingdom. If we would broaden our minds, then the kingdom would be free.”

Mat 4:13 And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum,

“YEEEEES……….Nazareth represents birth, and Capernaum represents maturity. We must leave the childish things, and move into the deeeeeeeeep things of the Spirit.”

which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim:

“The sea is speaking of the the walk of faith like Peter walking on the water. Zabulon and Nephthalim are the forces that keep us bound to the earth rather than the walk of faith.”

It’s utter nonsense. When the context doesn’t dictate the spiritualizing of a passage, all you get is gobbledygoop. I can say ANYTHING represents ANYTHING. And, how do you know when to stop, if you just decide to spiritualize passages willy-nilly?? Why did you stop where you did, and not continue on as I did?? How do you know when the text goes back to actual reality?? This is precisely the sort of textual massacre employed by the cults.

And notice, every time Jesus speaks back to the “devil” with Scripture! He’s trying to overcome his tempter by using the same weapon that is used against Him and thus showing the enemy that his source is not something that can be relied upon.

(Gary) WRONG WRONG WRONG……..THIS gets me angry. The passage means NOTHING OF THE SORT. Satan is TWISTING Scripture from its context, misusing it by ripping it from its Biblical setting without considering ALL the Scriptures on the subject, just as you do.

Jesus answers His twisting by QUOTING THE CONTEXT OF SCRIPTURE on the subject, thereby negating the devil’s attempt to make Scripture say what it DOES NOT SAY.

He wasn’t showing Scripture is an unreliable source, He is showing that ALL Scripture must be consulted, otherwise we are subject to deception. In other words, Jesus here REFUTES YOUR PARADIGM of picking passages to buttress your preconceived notion while ignoring the whole counsel of God on the subject. He NEVER intimates that Scripture is unreliable, He demonstrates that TWISTED and CONTEXTUALLY MASSACRED Scripture is the path to deception.

The devil knows Scripture………He just ignores its proper context and meaning. We follow the devil’s example to our everlasting peril.

(Anon)Take a look at Luke 24:25-27, if you would:

25 Then he said unto them, O FOOLS, AND SLOW OF HEART TO BELIEVE ALL THAT THE PROPHETS HAVE SPOKEN:
26 OUGHT NOT CHRIST TO HAVE SUFFERED THESE THINGS, AND TO ENTER INTO HIS GLORY?
27 AND BEGINNING AT MOSES AND ALL THE PROPHETS, HE EXPOUNDED UNTO THEM IN ALL THE SCRIPTURES THE THINGS CONCERNING HIMSELF.

Notice, Jesus was only talking about the scriptures CONCERNING HIMSELF, which the Bible says He opened their mind to understand. What about the rest of the scriptures then?

(Gary) Have you already forgotten?? Jesus called ALL the LAW, PROPHETS, AND PSALMS Scripture. ALL OF IT. NOT just the parts about Him (which is a particularly weak argument anyway, since everything in the Word pertains in SOME way to Christ, His nature, His work, His comings, His judgement, etc.).

(Anon)We do not even know who wrote the books of Moses and Samuel. Of course, you would say the answer is obvious, but the problem is one of the books supposedly written by Moses describes how he died, was buried and the mourning of the Jews for him. Samuel went even further and wrote 27 chapters after he died.

(Gary) Again, failing to study to shew yourself approved unto God. JESUS HIMSELF ascribed the writings to Moses. Obviously, the works of Moses were edited and expanded after his death by those who recorded the rest of the history.

The same applies to Samuel, whose works were complied and reformatted under Ezra. It’s not complicated.

(Anon)GaryV, maybe there’s nothing strange about being a sinner and staying God’s friend, but you certainly can’t compare David, Joshua and some other O.T. heroes with the Apostles. The Apostles were not sinless, but they loved God and hated sin. David only said he loved God, yet in all his actions he stayed wicked, even in the very day of his death. You may think him holy, but consider what Acts 2:29, 34 says:

“Men and brethren, let me freely speak to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. For David is NOT ascended into the heavens.”

(GaryV) Wow……..Ok, here goes. David was called BY GOD a man after God’s own heart. YOU adjudge David’s actions wicked due to your manifold misunderstanding of Scripture, but GOD (Who ALONE tries men’s hearts) had another opinion entirely. You see through a glass darkly, God does not. I’ll take His Word over yours.
David sinned egregiously. So do you and I, especially when you consider the Words of Christ that to hate your brother is equivalent to murder, and to look upon a woman to lust is to commit adultery. Yet……….God accepts you BECAUSE OF WHOM YOU TRUST, not because of what YOU are. THAT is the GOSPEL.

As for the Apostles…………Peter denied Christ thrice. Peter also denied the Truth of the Gospel by separating from the Gentiles, for which Paul rebuked him. Paul caused schism among the Apostles by holding a grudge against JohnMark. Thomas refused to believe the Words of Christ concerning His resurrection, even after it was attested to.James and John wanted to KILL everyone in the towns that didn’t accept Christ.

You may want to reconsider how you view these men.

(Anon)And please, don’t think i’m here only to prove my point. I’m very open to correction. In fact, i really love you guys (though i feel like this is not mutual) and enjoy your comments.

Blessings……

(Gary) I feel the same way……….it’s never about winning an argument for argument’s sake. However, it IS love to tell you that what you espouse was REJECTED by the church through the centuries under the guise of GNOSTICISM. It has always been considered outside the pale of orthodoxy. It has ALWAYS been fought against because it denigrates the Word and elevates man, making man in his sin and finiteness the final arbiter of Truth through relativistic “inner witnesses” rather than the Word and Spirit in agreement.

What you espouse is nothing new…….it’s the oldest heresy that confronted the church. I love you brother……..enough to tell you that you are heading down a dangerous path.God bless you.

First of all, i’m not presenting here my truth, i’m pointing to YOUR Spirit to show you everything you need to know. Because, as i said earlier, many times it’s very difficult to get God’s Word right. So you can be led by the Holy Spirit and still make mistakes, like i did in my post. And surely, that doesn’t make me being misled by the Spirit.

Yes, i do believe the Bible only contains the Word of God.
Consider John 1:1:

“…the Word was God.”

Or how about John 1:14?

“The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.”

As you all well know It’s talking about Jesus. Jesus is the true Word of God, not the Bible! When Jesus abides in you, you no longer need the Bible to teach you - Jesus will teach you!

“Abide in me, and i IN you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me” (John 15:4).

“…When God… was pleased to reveal His son IN me so that i might preach… i did not consult any man…” (Galations 1:15-16).

“…Christ IN you, the hope of glory” (Colossians 1:27).

I could go on and on citing the verses that clearly show truth can only be found within us, but seems like it won’t make sense to you anyway.

Now, concerning my statement that Jesus didn’t believe much of what is written in the Old Testament, but used it symbolically…

It doesn’t appear to be so strange if you read that Jesus Himself said in Matthew 13:13-17 and Mark 4:11-12 that He speaks in parables so that men couldn’t hear the truth of what he was saying literally. We can’t even take some stories in the Gospels literally.

“Then Jesus was led up into the wilderness by the Spirit to be tempted by the devil” (Matthew 4:1).

You know the story. But now, let’s read verse 8:

“Again, the devil taketh him up into an axceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them.”

Needless to say, there’s NO mountain in the whole Earth high enough to let you see “all the kingdoms of the world”; what is going on here is a parable.

How about the idea of Jesus wandering in the wilderness of His mind, fighting with the religious ideas (the devil, that is) attacking Him? And notice, every time Jesus speaks back to the “devil” with Scripture! He’s trying to overcome his tempter by using the same weapon that is used against Him and thus showing the enemy that his source is not something that can be relied upon.

Take a look at Luke 24:25-27, if you would:

25 Then he said unto them, O FOOLS, AND SLOW OF HEART TO BELIEVE ALL THAT THE PROPHETS HAVE SPOKEN:
26 OUGHT NOT CHRIST TO HAVE SUFFERED THESE THINGS, AND TO ENTER INTO HIS GLORY?
27 AND BEGINNING AT MOSES AND ALL THE PROPHETS, HE EXPOUNDED UNTO THEM IN ALL THE SCRIPTURES THE THINGS CONCERNING HIMSELF.

Notice, Jesus was only talking about the scriptures CONCERNING HIMSELF, which the Bible says He opened their mind to understand. What about the rest of the scriptures then?

We do not even know who wrote the books of Moses and Samuel. Of course, you would say the answer is obvious, but the problem is one of the books supposedly written by Moses describes how he died, was buried and the mourning of the Jews for him. Samuel went even further and wrote 27 chapters after he died.

GaryV, maybe there’s nothing strange about being a sinner and staying God’s friend, but you certainly can’t compare David, Joshua and some other O.T. heroes with the Apostles. The Apostles were not sinless, but they loved God and hated sin. David only said he loved God, yet in all his actions he stayed wicked, even in the very day of his death. You may think him holy, but consider what Acts 2:29, 34 says:

“Men and brethren, let me freely speak to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. For David is NOT ascended into the heavens.”

And please, don’t think i’m here only to prove my point. I’m very open to correction. In fact, i really love you guys (though i feel like this is not mutual) and enjoy your comments.

Blessings……

No, it does not……..and reading into the text more than is stated is a problem. Could not David have kept the head of Goliath as a trophy?? A remembrance of God’s might on his behalf, and he brought it into Jerusalem when he took the city as his residence?? I mean……….that’s quite a trphy to just throw away, especially after taking it with you rather than just leaving it on the field of battle.

And,since David has just saved Israel, Saul wanted to know who his father was, probably to show the father proper respect for his son David.
In 1 Samuel 16, the Spirit of the Lord had left Saul (16:14) and an evil spirit came and afflicted Saul (16:23). David came and then played for Saul to sooth him. Chapter 17 begins the well known story of David and Goliath with NO MENTION of how much time passes between David playing the harp for Saul and Goliath’s challenge. It may very well have been many months or many YEARS .

I don’t know about you, but I changed quite a bit physically from the time I was a “ruddy youth” .

Nevertheless, David was the youngest of the sons of Jesse (17:14), who was a youth (17:33), and who tended the flocks (17:15). David is then known as a young musician and a sheep herder, not a warrior as were his three oldest brothers (17:13-14). Saul and David have conversations about David doing battle with Goliath and Saul offers David his armor (17:38). David refuses the armor and goes out to kill Goliath. Saul then asks Abner, “Whose son is this young man?” And Abner said, “By your life, O king, I do not know,” (17:55). In verse 58 Saul says, “Whose son are you, young man?” And David answered, “I am the son of your servant Jesse the Bethlehemite.”

Considering that time had elapsed, is it surprising that two of the National leaders might not remember the father of some boy who used to play the harp for Saul, or that Saul didn’t recognize David from his youth??

The point is, there are certainly difficult passages in the Bible……….but the fact that you may not be able to reconcile them yourself does not render them uninspired.

NOW………..nice attempt at distraction, but I couldn’t help but notice that you didn’t answer ANY of my questions. I imagine that the attempted distraction was supposed to get us all flustered so we wouldn’t notice.

I addressed your post point-by-point. I would appreciate the same courtesy extended to me. After you have done so, if you want to bring up more troubling verses, so be it. But it’s rude to ignore the points I made in favor of posting new scenarios for me to answer.

First………..answer me. Then, I will answer you. That is how dialogue takes place. Nothing you posted here has ANY bearing upon the points I made about defining what IS or IS NOT inspired in the Word, or about the lack of Scriptural evidence that the Holy Spirit is to be used as a tool to judge doctrine apart from the Word, or that Jesus didn’t rely on the Spirit exclusive of the Word as you stated (and if HE couldn’t do it, you have NO hope BTW), or that the entire OT as WRITTEN (in it’s entirety) was called Scripture by Jesus, and neither He nor any other writer made the artificial distinctives you have,ior that God set teachers in the church in perpetuity when you say we need no teachers, or that the Holy Spirit you relied upon to guide you could not even keep your only post free from error .

Once these and the other points have been addressed, we can move on. But not until then.

Proverbs 14:6

6 The mocker seeks wisdom and finds none,
but knowledge comes easily to the discerning.

Brah, Please don’t take me the wrong way in saying this. I’m really trying to go to bat for you by being gracious/considerate (and even Gary has too, though that may change soon enough), but it seems as if you’re bent on not taking any of the advice/counsel offered to you seriously……or even willing to adress any of the points(not opinions, mind you) given by GaryV, myself or others……even though we’ve tried our best to adress many of yours already from the Word.

And as you don’t wish to waste time arguing, neither does anyone here at PP.org. That would be most unwise/unprofitable for all involved:

Proverbs 17:14

14 Starting a quarrel is like breaching a dam;
so drop the matter before a dispute breaks out

Proverbs 17:19

19 He who loves a quarrel loves sin;
he who builds a high gate invites destruction.

Proverbs 20:3

3 It is to a man’s honor to avoid strife,
but every fool is quick to quarrel.

Proverbs 26:21

21 As charcoal to embers and as wood to fire,
so is a quarrelsome man for kindling strife.

So, to avoid any possible strife/quarreling, are you AT LEAST open to the possibility that you may be in error or willing to change your stance if we could logially show you from the Word that your position really lacks a solid basis?

Even concerning the apparent contradictions you see, if we were to challenge you to look further at the verses in context (which I believe will help the problems you see to disappear and cause many things fall into place), would you be willing to take up the offer?

Or is the matter altogether closed to you and you’re just here to prove a point? Cause if it is, I’ll gladly drop out of this debate. Can’t say the same for GaryV, but I’m guessing he may feel the same…..and Lord help you should you provoke his “RIKI TIKI” persona to come back from the grave (trust me, with Gary, you’ve been privelaged to deal with the “tame version” of him, lol lol….no offense, Gary)

Just trying to help you out, brah……Blessings

So David had his tent? And he brought the head of Goliath to Jerusalem? It’s even more strange, because Jerusalem did not belong to the Jews at that time. The city was taken only later by… David.
In verse 57 Saul asks David: “Whose son art thou, thou youth?”
Seems like that was the first time Saul saw him; however, one must read verses 32-37 of the same chapter to see just the opposite. But the full absurdity of Saul’s question becomes evident when you read chapter 16, in which Samuel anointed David to be a king of Israel. Let’s see what happened then:
1 Samuel 16:14-23:
14 But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him.
15 And Saul’s servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.
16 Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well.
17 And Saul said unto his servants, Provide me now a man that can play well, and bring him to me.
18 Then answered one of the servants, and said, Behold, i have seen a son of Jesse the Bethlehemite, that is cunning in playing, and a mighty valiant man, and a man of war, and prudent in matters, and a comely person, and the LORD is with him.
19 Wherefore Saul sent messengers unto Jesse, and said, Send me David thy son, which is with the sheep.
20 And Jesse took an ass laden with bread, and a bottle of wine, and a kid, and sent them by David his son unto Saul.
21 And David came to Saul, and stood before him: and he loved him greatly; and he became his armourbearer.
22 And Saul sent to Jesse, saying, Let David, i pray thee, stand before me; for he hath found favour in my sight.
23 And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.

Wow. Looks like they knew each other quite well, doesn’t it? And didn’t Saul actually know whose son David was? To add to that, in light of what the above scripture says, it seems odd that Abner, the captain of the host, did not know anything about David, whom Samuel had anointed before to reign over Israel and thus replace Saul!

(Malachi 3:6) - “For I, the Lord, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.”
God does change

(Genesis 6:6,7) - “And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7And the Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.”

(Exodus 32:14) - “So the Lord changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.”

(Jonah 3:10) - “When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them. And He did not do it.”

When God says that He does not change, He is speaking about His nature and character. But this does not mean that He cannot change how He works with people throughout history.

When we see God changing His mind, we are seeing it from a human perspective. Since God knows all things from all eternity, He as always known the ultimate plan that He would carry out; even the plan to “change His mind.”

In Jonah’s account of Nineveh, for example, they repented and God relented from the destruction that was to come upon the inhabitants. Of course, God knew this would happen and instituted the warning to them in order to bring about their repentance. There is no mystery here.

Anything seeming like a behavior change fromt the OT to the NT is nothing more than the Lord changing His behavior to remain consistent with His nature. If God wanted to destroy those against Him (as all the nations He ordered destroyed were), He’d be acting consistently with His Justice……None des

If God relented (and there were plenty of times that He did), He’d be acting consistently with His mercy.

And there are various instances where the Merciful God in the NT can be seen in the Old. God’s not arbitrary, and He’d never condemn people that changed their ways when He threateneed them with His just Wrath.

If you claim that the Bible contains the word of God but not as the word of God is made, you’re s undermining the very trustworthiness of God’s Word.

How you to decide what are is and is not inspired, and therefore true, if the very breath of God moving through a sinner results in documents with mistakes?

Does this inspire trust in God’s Word? Does it promote security and rest in believing God’s Word? Obviously not……..if anything, it’s seem to promote nothing but confusion and discouragement when taking the Lord seriously when we cannot even take what He’s claimed to be of Him as TRUTH…..and have no standard of verifying

That’d seem to be a waste of time and energy…….and you had May as well “eat, drink, and be merry” (I Corinthians 15:29-34)……

Pray you understand my heart and that God’ll continue to open your eyes to the danger of doing as you’re doing by promoting what seems to be “subjectivity”……

You can take the Whole Word of God as being inspired by Him, and I believe that the contradictions will make sense to you if you continue to earnestly seek Him.

Blessings, Brash…..

This means that the Bible contains a record of a lie. But how can such an error be included in the Word of God and still have the word of God be inerrant since a lie is an error?

The answer is that the Bible inerrantly records the lie. It makes no mistakes in its reporting of events, in its proclamation of truth, and in its revelation of God’s will. Where it may record the lies, failures, deception, etc. of various individuals, it does so perfectly and without error.

Likewise, when it records historical events, genealogies, etc., it does so using the idioms and cultural norms of the time — yet it is without error.

Jesus acknowledged this when he said that the Word of God, the Scripture, cannot be broken. This means that it cannot fail. Why? because the written form of the word of God, which is Scripture, is inspired and because it is inspired it cannot fail, it must be fulfilled.

Remember, Jesus called the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms (all of the Old Testament) scripture and he says that the Scriptures cannot be broken, cannot fail. He was obviously referring to the written form of the Old Testament:

·Luke 24:44-45, “Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures.”

·John 10:35 “If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken).”
If a citation of a city was incorrect, is that not a failure of Scripture? If a date is wrong, is that not a failure of scripture? Likewise, would not an error in a fact, likewise be a failure in the Scripture? Of course it would! But Jesus says the Scriptures cannot be broken. They cannot fail. Is Jesus wrong?

Some might say those are instances of verses that “contain” God’s word, but that it doesn’t mean the Bible is God’s word. The problem with that response appears when we look at what Jesus said.

Luke 24:44-45, “Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures. ”

Notice that Jesus speaks about what is written regarding him in the Old Testament. Then John the apostle writes that Jesus opened their mind to understand the Scriptures. What Scriptures? The Law (Moses), the prophets, and the Psalms. This was a common designation for the Old Testament.

Therefore, Jesus says that the written form of the Old Testament is Scripture. Jesus goes on to deal with the religious leaders who would violate these scriptures which he called “the word of God.”

·Matt 15:6, “he is not to honor his father or his mother.’ And thus you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition.”

·Mark 7:13, “thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

·John 10:35 “If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken).”

Jesus never said the scriptures contain the word of God. He said they were the word of God. Therefore, we can see that the word of God is the written form of Scripture. In fact, we are told by Paul not to exceed what is written. Note, Paul doesn’t say to not exceed the parts of the scripture that contain God’s word, he says not to exceed what is written!

1 Cor. 4:6, “Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that in us you might learn not to exceed what is written, in order that no one of you might become arrogant in behalf of one against the other.”

It is the written form that is proclaimed as being Scripture, unbreakable, the word of God, and the standard of which we are not to exceed. This can only be true, if the written form is the Word of God, not just something that subjectively contains the word of God.

Concerning your statement on historical accuracies in the Bible, I believe the Bible is very trustworthy as a historical document. If you were to look at a chart that compared the biblical documents with other ancient documents, I’d think you’d see that the Bible is in a class by itself regarding the number of ancient copies and their reliability.

It should be obvious that the biblical documents, especially in the New Testament documents, are superior in their quantity, time span from original occurrence, and textual reliability. The question is not into documents a reliably transmitted to us. In the question is whether or not the biblical documents record actual historical accounts.
If you open to almost any page in the Bible you will find a name of a place and/or a person. Much of this can be verified from archaeology.

Consider how the walls of Jericho have been found, destroyed just as the Bible says. Many critics doubted that Nazareth ever existed, yet archaeologists have found a first-century synagogue inscription at Caesarea verified its existence. Finds have verified Herod the Great and his son Herod Antipas. The remains of the Apostle Peter’s house have been found at Capernaum. Bones with nail scars through the wrists and feet have been uncovered as well demonstrating the actuality of crucifixion. The High Priest Caiaphas’ bones have been discovered in an ossuary (a box used to store bones).

There is, of course, a host of archaeological digs that corroborate biblical records such as Bethsaida, Bethany, Caesarea Philippi, Capernaum, Cyprus, Galatia, Philippi, Thessalonica, Berea, Athens, Corinth, Ephesus, Rome, etc. The list goes on

Though archaeology cannot prove that the Bible is the inspired word of God, it has the ability to prove whether or not if some events and locations described therein are true or false. So far, however, there isn’t a single archaeological discovery that disproves the Bible in any way.

Therefore, since it has been verified over and over again throughout the centuries, we can continue to trust it as an accurate historical document.

How do you propose to CHECK it?? Do you just discount everyone who doesn’t agree with you based upon some “feeling”?? Is that how we are to be guided?? I believe the verses you cited…….I just know OTHER verses that put them in CONTEXT.

What you are doing is called “prooftexting”. Precisely how all cultists get their start, picking out a verse here and there like it’s a Chinese buffet rather than taking the entire teaching on a subject.

Why are you not a Mormon?? How do you know they are wrong?? You can’t test by Scripture………so what are you left with?? A Christian version of the Burning Bosum??

Why not be a Jehovah’s Witness?? THEY will tell you that the Spirit told them that THEIR way is the Truth. You would tell them it’s not.

Why is YOUR witness greater than theirs?? You both base it on extra-Biblical revelation………..so why are you any better? How are we to decide which of you is right?? Or the Moonie………..or Christadelphian……….or Christian Scientist??
They ALL got their revelation of Truth the same way YOU did. They FELT an INWARD WITNESS, and disregarded Scripture. Are they wrong?? How do you know??

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Now……..how does the Bible say we are to know whether someone is off doctrinally?? By the Word of the Gospel. We are to test teachings by the Word……..if it contradicts that, we are to consider the bearer of the false doctrine accursed.

Did you know about Dagon, and his relevance to Jonah?? No?? Seems you may need some man to teach you after all. Did Abraham have daughters?? Nope. Did you understand the symbology of Ezekiel?? Uh Uh. Why did the Spirit allow you to make such mistakes?? After all………..you just said the Bible tells us you have ALL TRUTH, and need no man to teach you about anything.

If the Spirit didn’t teach you about those errors like you said He would, if He didn’t guide you into all Truth before allowing you to post blatant error,what makes you think you’re not wrong in OTHER areas?? Possibly just the errors in your tiny post should tell you that your interpretation is wrong,no??

It’s odd that God would make “teacher” a ministry gift to the church, when (if your interpretation is correct), we don’t need men to teach us.

Was God confused??

I especially love the way you read verses out of the Bible (devoid of context) to prove your assertions.

Errrrrrr………what if those verses you rely upon are NOT the inspired ones?? Where are you then?? How would you KNOW??

I know…………your “inner witness”, right?? Well………..so far that witness has let you down badly. Just ask Abraham’s daughters or Jonah’s whale………if you can find them.

You denigrate Bible knowledge, but I submit to you that you would not find so many supposed contradictions, and ridiculous stories, etc if you HAD more Biblical knowledge.

And your final parting shot about Jesus being led by the Spirit, not by the Word.Ridiculous. We’ve already see that the Spirit WROTE the Bible, no?? So, we are not suggesting that the Spirit does not lead………but that He leads mostly by the Word, and uses that Word to keep you from wandering down the wrong path.

What regard did Jesus have for the Word??

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is WRITTEN (not “The Spirit witnessed to Me”), Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every WORD that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Mat 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is WRITTEN again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is WRITTEN, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God