GaryV (aka Riki Tiki Tavi) is back and with great manliness, he has taken up the challenge to respond to Judge Not. Kick back, relax, and watch RTT at work. Welcome back GaryV.
The block quotes are Judge Not’s comments and Bible references. You’ll be able to tell which is which once you start reading.
Melvin: How does he differentiate the distorted beliefs from the accurate ones?
A very good question indeed. First of all, i need to make a statement that may surprise you, but still is true: the Bible isn’t the Word of God, it contains the Word of God. You don’t have to put yourself in God’s place to understand that.
Well, upon what do you base this belief?
Jesus cited the Old Testament continuously, and called it THE WORD OF GOD. He never made the artificial distinctions you just made.
Luk 24:44
And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning meLuk 24:45
Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures.”
Now, JESUS, .GOD ALMIGHTY, just called the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms SCRIPTURE, did He not? Of course, you realize that this was the common designation for ALL the OT. All of the OT is incorporated in the Law, Prophets and Psalms. So, Jesus is saying that ALL the OT is Scripture, NOT that it CONTAINS Scripture.
So, let’s see what Jesus SAYS about Scripture, now that we know WHAT Scripture IS according to the God of the Universe.
In John 10:35, Jesus says that Scripture CANNOT BE BROKEN.
Also, we can see that Paul makes no such distinction…
2Ti 3:16
All scripture (which we have just seen includes all the Law,Prophets, and Psalms) [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:2Ti 3:17
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.“I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond WHAT IS WRITTEN.”
Now, .what was “written” that Paul referred to? The OT, of course. Well, why would it be imperative not to go beyond what is written, if what is written is not the Word of God, but only CONTAINS the Word of God? No problem going beyond the parts that AREN’T the Word of God. But sadly, Paul failed to make any such distinction.
The fact is, there is a huge and somewhat strange contradiction between the Old Testament and the New Testament. Why is it strange? Because we know that God changes not (Mal. 3:6; Heb. 13:8; James 1:17). And really, God is perfect, how can He change? Yet He certainly must have changed His mind in the New Testament, as it has nothing in common with the Old Testament.
Hmmmmmmm, God dealt with the Jews in the OT, and the NT. God prophesied of Messiah in the OT, fulfilled in the NT. Sin is revealed as separating us from God in the OT, and the NT. Sacrifices in the OT, and the NT? Yup, no comparison at all. Shall I go on?
Though the latter has some important prophecies concerning Christ (which i don’t deny to be true), the rest of it is full of absurdities, contradictions and religious myths with no historical substance. The most noticeable (and horrible) absurdity is the fact that almost all of the biblical heroes were sinners and yet stayed God’s friends.
Yup, just like in the NEW TESTAMENT. Or do you believe that the Apostles were sinless? Peter denied the Lord thrice, separated himself from the brethren in opposition to the Gospel, yet remained a friend of God. Heck, why do you think 1 John 1:9 (and a host of others)was written??
1Jo 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Why do you suppose that God put these sort of verses in the New Testament, which admit that the “Friends of God” (believers in Christ) can still sin, and need forgiveness?
Abraham sleeping with his daughters?
Abraham had no daughters. It was Lot who slept with his daughters. And this after they got him drunk.
Joshua only busy with killing and destroying, slaying everybody on his way “unto the last sheep”?
God executing wrath upon nations that had been warned for hundreds of years is not found in the New Testament? Perhaps a quick glance through Revelation is in order. The fact that God is now graciously withholding His wrath until the fullness of the church is gathered does NOT mean He has changed. He is gracious through Christ. Wrath is COMING, just as in the OT. He hasn’t changed a bit.
“Humble” David putting his enemies under saws and harrows of iron (2 Samuel 12:31)?
See above…….God uses men to preserve His people, Old Testament and New.
May God have mercy.
He has had mercy in Christ. Yet according to you, that means HE has changed.
Futhermore, do read some confusing verses in the book of Ezekiel (Ez. 4:12,15; 37).
These are object lessons meant to teach and persuade those for whom the Word was held in low regard. Not puzzling to ME, but perhaps if you had taken the time to understand the symbolism they would not be troublesome to you either.
And please, don’t tell me you really believe the story of Jonah in which he was swallowed by a whale.
Jonah WASN’T swallowed by a whale. He was swallowed by a “great fish”. Know why? He was running from witnessing to Ninevah. Know who the Ninevites worshipped? Dagon, the fish God. What impact would it have had for Jonah to come out of a fish (which they worshipped) to bring them the word of repentance? Well the results speak for themselves, don’t they?
Why do you have trouble believing that God could preserve someone in the fish, yet believe that Christ rose from the dead? Which is the more impressive? What about parting the Red Sea? Or raising Lazarus from the dead? Or walking on water? If you read carefully, it says that God PREPARED a great fish to swallow Jonah, like HE PREPARED a great Ark for Noah. It was prepared to hold Jonah, AND to serve as a witness to the Ninevites, the fish-worshipping pagans. No problem for me.
I am sure Jesus used this stuff symbolically, He didn’t believe it (otherwise, we should question His deity).
And THERE we have it: unless YOU can understand it, unless YOU can reason it out, God cannot be God. Therefore, we are at the mercy of your finite mental cvapacity, and your demonstrated lack of actual Biblical knowledge (Abraham’s daughters, whales, Joshua, Ezekiel, etc).
Please READ what Jesus said when referring to Jonah.
Mat 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Now was Jesus 3 days and nights in the heart of the earth, or not? Could Jesus point to Jonah as an example if he was NOT really in the fish? If He KNEW Jonah’s story was false, by extension His sojourn in the heart of the earth is compromised, since the verses He references to build a foundation for His claims about being in the heart of the earth are FALSE.
Have you ever wondered why there’s so much violence in the Old Testament? Well, here’s your answer - “He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man” (Isaiah 66:3).
Therefore, we need to differentiate what is true in the Bible from what is false. How?
Again, God executing judgment by the instrumentality of man through war is HARDLY exclusive to the OT. We are simply awaiting the completion of the church, then Revelation kicks in, which Christ Himself says is WORSE than anything recorded in the OT.
“Even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you” (John 14:17).
“But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever i have said unto you” (John 14:26).
Some teach (and this site promotes this point of view) to only be led by the Bible. Was Jesus led by the Bible or by the Spirit? Let’s take a look at Matthew 4:1 for the answer:
“Then Jesus was led up to the wilderness BY THE SPIRIT to be tempted by the devil”
We should do the same thing and let the Spirit teach us and lead us.
Consider Romans 8:14:
“For as many as are led BY THE SPIRIT of God, they are the sons of God.”
I truly believe we should use the Spirit to examine everything the Bible says (as well as what the pimps say, by the way). In other words, we should “filter” everything through the Spirit of truth.
Alrighty then!
2Pe 1:21
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the HOLY GHOST.
Scripture is the PRODUCT of the Holy Spirit. So do we trust in some ethereal “voice” to tell us what’s true, or rely on the words that the Holy Spirit has ALREADY set before us?
2Sa 23:1
Now these [be] the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man [who was] raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said,
2Sa 23:2
The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word [was] in my tongue.
Mat 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Jhn 10:35
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;Mat 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.Mat 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
We could go on with this in perpetuity, but let’s stop and consider something. Nowhere, NOWHERE is the suggestion made in the Word the distinction you have posited. Nowhere is there given a means of separating the “wheat from the chaff” either, so that we can KNOW which words are of God, and which words are not.
You are constructing a paradigm out of NOTHING. The Bible NEVER suggests, states, implies, or alludes to PARTS of the Word being uninspired, or how to discern the difference between them. The Holy Spirit is NEVER referenced as a means of doing so by anyone except you. You won’t find such an idea in Scripture. What DO we find?
2Ti 3:16
ALL SCRIPTURE (defined by Jesus as ALL the written OT, and by the words of the NT writers as well)[is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
You don’t have to wonder who has sent the Spirit you’re operating in. Neither you will question your salvation and who is the One you have been saved by.
Well, I have to wonder upon WHAT you base your salvation, since it may be possible that the verses you are relying upon might well be part of the UNINSPIRED parts (which as we have seen is a concept foreign to the Word itself).
Please don’t tell me you just KNOW by the Spirit which ones are right. The Bible does not give you that option. What if the verses YOU decide are inspired are claimed to NOT be inspired by another? which one of you is correct, and how would we judge between you? By the Spirit? And how would OTHERS know if WE were right in choosing one of you over the other? By the Spirit as well? What if THEY disagree?
This is an infinite regress, and a logical absurdity.
Your relativistic “knowledge” by the “spirit” of which verses are true or not true is nothing more than the “burning bosom” witness of a Mormon. And they believe God was a man.
As we very well know Jesus did not come to destroy the law but fulfill it. That being said then one must assume that the Lord did not do away with it. The only things which we as Christians are no longer obligated to do are the rituals prescribed in the OT because these rituals were paradigms of what was to become and would be fulfilled by Jesus. Other than that the OT is just as much scripture as the NT. The reason we have such a sickly apostate Church today is because of our view of Jesus only in terms of the NT. Because of this we fail to understand the true depth and character of God which is the reason we have such heretical teachings today. The best example of the OT God as still the same God in the NT is the Book of Revelation. In the final book of the Bible we see the wrath of God being poured out on all flesh just as he did in the OT. What Judge not is doing is abusing grace by thinking that God has changed. If anything you should be SO thankful that we live in the era of grace. But, that does not imply that God has changed. The same Jesus who “humbly” went to cross like a sheep to slaughter is the same Jesus who is going to invoke such righteous anger upon those on earth who rejected him at the end of the age. Don’t mistake kindness for weakness just as you should not mistake the Lord of the OT with the one in the NT BECAUSE THEY ARE ONE IN THE SAME.
Oh! I found the scripture to end ALL debate on this topic.
Malachi 3:6
For I am the Lord, I change Not;
Kyle
TO KYLE, whoever you are—AMEN! Let God be true, and every man a liar.
(Judge Not: “And really, God is perfect, how can He change?”)
(Malachi 3:6) - “For I, the Lord, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.”
God does change
(Genesis 6:6,7) - “And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7And the Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.”
(Exodus 32:14) - “So the Lord changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.”
(Jonah 3:10) - “When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them. And He did not do it.”
When God says that He does not change, He is speaking about His nature and character. But this does not mean that He cannot change how He works with people throughout history.
When we see God changing His mind, we are seeing it from a human perspective. Since God knows all things from all eternity, He as always known the ultimate plan that He would carry out; even the plan to “change His mind.”
In Jonah’s account of Nineveh, for example, they repented and God relented from the destruction that was to come upon the inhabitants. Of course, God knew this would happen and instituted the warning to them in order to bring about their repentance. There is no mystery here.
Anything seeming like a behavior change fromt the OT to the NT is nothing more than the Lord changing His behavior to remain consistent with His nature. If God wanted to destroy those against Him (as all the nations He ordered destroyed were), He’d be acting consistently with His Justice……None des
If God relented (and there were plenty of times that He did), He’d be acting consistently with His mercy.
And there are various instances where the Merciful God in the NT can be seen in the Old. God’s not arbitrary, and He’d never condemn people that changed their ways when He threateneed them with His just Wrath.
well this goes back to one of my other posts, that we are getting to a point where scripture will no longer be viewed as being relevant. Folks want to serve the Lord under their own terms and that mess just doesn’t fly. You can’t sit there and say that the Word is full of contradictions and absurdities, yet claim to be a follower of Christ.
I am not writing to condemn what you are saying, but I am writing because I dont understand your strong statements. I do feel that in this world today there are pulpit pimps(unfortunate but true), but I dont believe that Creflo Dollar is one of the pastors who are trying to make money of off an ignorant congregration. Why???? God would not allow his people to be so strongly deceived across the entire world. (MN: Have you considered the possibility that maybe they are not His people. You are guessing very well in exactly that direction. Do you think the people who follow Profit Jordan are His people? )
If Creflo Dollar is deceiving children of God, then his end will come very quick. By the way, I am not a member of Creflo’s ministry but I am a follower. I follow because I appreciate the word he brings into my life. I also pay close attention to his teaching and I like the word he brings because he gives spiritual and biblical reference. I pray often that God would reveal to me deceivers of the pulpit. (MN: Creflo denies that Jesus was God while on Earth. How much of a red flag do you need. Creflo says Jesus was the first Born Again man. Doesn’t this stir the wind on that flag at least a little? What would he have to say to make a red flag appear? ) Some people I dont listen to because I feel a red flag in my spirit because their words do not follow the word of God. I listen and appreciate what Creflo Dollar’s Ministry has to offer because I have learned so much only through his broadcast. Your website is very powerful because it can reach people all over the world. I would like that when you criticize pastors also give more scriptual proof for people like me who would like to understand where you are coming from. I am most interested in “Jesus was not God”. I understood what Creflo said because Jesus was(is) not God, Jesus was(is) the son of God. I thought all christians understood that, but I guess I was wrong to think that. I truely think your intentions of your website is true, but I just feel that you are only a bit mis-guided. Again, I am not judging you or your efforts to find pulpit deceivers (pimps), I just want more info (scriptual, and personal if necessary) of why you have chosen to chastise Creflo Dollar (someone who I truely regard as a man of God). I would really apppreciate a reply. (MN: I can’t give you anymore until you address what has already been provided. How do you explain his saying Jesus was not God? We’ll start there and move ahead. )
Honestly with Love,
Meek
Judge Not,
Bible difficulties, or apparent Bible contradictions, exist in the Bible and we need to be aware of them and how to respond to them……..and it’s rather easy to answer their objections if you simply look at the context and apply a little logic. What remains are those issues dealing with textual variations — and there are a few.
Concerning your statement on contradictions, one has to understand what a contradiction really is first before understanding the BIBLE.
A contradiction occurs when one statement makes another statement impossible when both statements deal with the same topic at the same time (ex. in my right pocket is a set of car keys. In my right pocket there is no set of car keys. Both statements cannot true at the same time. Therefore, to state that both were true is to state a contradiction)
If one gospel account says two people went to Jesus’ tomb and another says that one went, it is not a contradiction because the accounts do not say that only one went or only two went. If one account said that only one went, then two could not have gone and that would be a contradiction.
Meek: “I am most interested in “Jesus was not God”. I understood what Creflo said because Jesus was(is) not God, Jesus was(is) the son of God. I thought all christians understood that, but I guess I was wrong to think that.”
Aiight Meek, lets see how accurat Cref’s interpretatio of Christ is in comparison to the Word.
1 In the beginning the Word already existed.
The Word was with God,and the Word was God.
2 He existed in the beginning with God.
3 God created everything through him,
and nothing was created except through him.
4 The Word gave life to everything that was created,
and his life brought light to everyone.
5 The light shines in the darkness,
and the darkness can never extinguish it.
6 God sent a man, John the Baptist,[c] 7 to tell about the light so that everyone might believe because of his testimony.
8 John himself was not the light; he was simply a witness to tell about the light. 9 The one who is the true light, who gives light to everyone, was coming into the world.
10 He came into the very world he created, but the world didn’t recognize him.
11 He came to his own people, and even they rejected him.
12 But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to become children of God.
13 They are reborn–not with a physical birth resulting from human passion or plan, but a birth that comes from God.
14 So the Word became human[d] and made his home among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness.[e] And we have seen his glory, the glory of the Father’s one and only Son.
Now this is probably the most Clear cut group of passages that proves that the same Word (God) that created everything is the same Word (God) that became human, dwelt among men, and later died on the cross. The conclusion is that while Christ was on earth he was fully human and fully God. You can’t look at the fact that since he took the form of a servant (human), in which he ate, slept, got weary, wept…ect and assume that he was just a man. This i the claim that Muslims make, and why they deny the true and living God of the Bible.
*I thought all christians understood that, but I guess I was wrong to think that.
“For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God” (Romans 8:14).
What a verse. Now, i believe it’s time to say: “Oh my goodness! How in the world could we miss this?” And notice, Paul did not say: “those who are led by the Bible, pastor, church, or denominational doctrine.” Paul only says that all scriptures are prfitable for instruction, reproof, correction, etc (2 Timothy 3:16 -17). Why didn’t Jesus, Paul and the rest of the apostles tell us to look to the Bible for answers? Instead, where did they tell us to look?
“… Christ IN you, the hope of glory” (Colossians 1:27).
“I can do all things through Christ that empowers me.” Philippians 4:13.
“… The kingdom of God is WITHIN YOU” (Luke 17:20 -21).
“But the anointing which you have received from Him abides IN YOU, and YOU DO NOT NEED THAT ANYONE TEACH YOU: but as THE SAME ANOINTING TEACHES YOU CONCERNING ALL THINGS AND IS TRUE, and is not a lie, and just AS IT HAS TAUGHT YOU, YOU WILL ABIDE IN HIM” (1 John 2:27).
It is amazing to me the amount of people who would stand up and fight for their beliefs, yet are unaware that Jesus said (NOT ME), truth is to be found within… right in their Bibles:
“The Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He DWELLS WITH YOU AND WILL BE IN YOU” (John 14:17).
“But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshippers will worship the Father IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit and those who worship Him MUST WORSHIP IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH” (John 4:23 -24).
And no, i’m not a Mormon - I”M JUST READING IT TO YOU OUT OF THE BIBLE. The same Bible you have made your final authority, the Bible that you believe to be true and flawless. Why don’t you believe the Bible, then, when it comes to the above verses? Why? Because they really mess with the religious. It’s not easy to do what Jesus said and lose your life to really find it, to become dead to the earthly things; however, this is what one has to do in order to start walking in the Spirit.
So, how do we know we are really Christians? For Melvin and his faithful supporters it apparently depends on how many verses from the Bible you can quote, or how good you know your Bible. Does this knowledge make you saved? I don’t think so.
(MN: Just trying to make the most of my temporary freedom before the poll ends……like you said, “I’ll keep the poll up for five days. And until then, his limit is lifted, if only so you can get something of a taste for what a lifting of the restriction will look like”…….but thankfully my other post since the post have been 200 and below. No more 500 essays after this).
Judge Not,
Don’t believe anyone’s advocating one’s saved by the amount of Bible Knowledge you have….
What IS being said is that you cannot know/follow Christ apart from His knowing/obeying His Words (which were based on God’s WHOLE Word) …….
If one’s going to “Follow the Spirit”, they need to make sure what they sense is line with CHRIST FIRST, FOR HIS WORDS are SPIRIT:
John 6:63
63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[a] and they are life.
God’s Spirit’ will never work against Christ……..who followed/fufilled all of God’s law (Matthew 5:17-19) and was in complete agreement with the God of the Bible: OT and NT (John 5:19-31)……nor is He against the God of the OT. To note, The HS even worked alongside the apparent bloodthirsty, as you call it, God of the OT!!!
Genesis 1:2
2 Now the earth was [a] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
Judges 3:10
10 The Spirit of the LORD came upon him, so that he became Israel’s judge [a] and went to war. The LORD gave Cushan-Rishathaim king of Aram into the hands of Othniel, who overpowered him.
Judges 14:19
Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon him in power. He went down to Ashkelon, struck down thirty of their men, stripped them of their belongings and gave their clothes to those who had explained the riddle. Burning with anger, he went up to his father’s house.
The list could go on, but there are a Myriad of instances where the Word makes apparent that the Spirit of God for today still was operating alongside the God of War in the OT, and to say that it’s the Spirit alone we should believe and that we should ignore what the OT says, while ignoring all of the instances where God’s Spirit was supporting those things you say aren’t real is a contradiction in itself….
Yes, The Spirit applies the redemptive work of Christ, convicts the world of sin (John 16:8), teaches (John 14:26; 15:26), “anoints” and keeps believers from going astray (1 John 2:27)…..and we now have a new standard to love our enemies because we now have the Spirit living in us n’ empowering us to do so (something that those in the OT lacked permanently and therefore WAS impossible to do).
But, He ALWAYS points to Jesus (John 15:26), for Christ promised the HS to teach n’ remind Believers of all that Christ taught (John 14:26).
Pray this helps you, a bit. Blessings…….
Ok Judge Not………..let’s run with that paradigm.How is it that we have the Catholic church calling Mary an intercessor?? They say the Spirit revealed it……….yet it is not in the Bible.
How do you propose to CHECK it?? Do you just discount everyone who doesn’t agree with you based upon some “feeling”?? Is that how we are to be guided?? I believe the verses you cited…….I just know OTHER verses that put them in CONTEXT.
What you are doing is called “prooftexting”. Precisely how all cultists get their start, picking out a verse here and there like it’s a Chinese buffet rather than taking the entire teaching on a subject.
Why are you not a Mormon?? How do you know they are wrong?? You can’t test by Scripture………so what are you left with?? A Christian version of the Burning Bosum??
Why not be a Jehovah’s Witness?? THEY will tell you that the Spirit told them that THEIR way is the Truth. You would tell them it’s not.
Why is YOUR witness greater than theirs?? You both base it on extra-Biblical revelation………..so why are you any better? How are we to decide which of you is right?? Or the Moonie………..or Christadelphian……….or Christian Scientist??
They ALL got their revelation of Truth the same way YOU did. They FELT an INWARD WITNESS, and disregarded Scripture. Are they wrong?? How do you know??
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Now……..how does the Bible say we are to know whether someone is off doctrinally?? By the Word of the Gospel. We are to test teachings by the Word……..if it contradicts that, we are to consider the bearer of the false doctrine accursed.
Did you know about Dagon, and his relevance to Jonah?? No?? Seems you may need some man to teach you after all. Did Abraham have daughters?? Nope. Did you understand the symbology of Ezekiel?? Uh Uh. Why did the Spirit allow you to make such mistakes?? After all………..you just said the Bible tells us you have ALL TRUTH, and need no man to teach you about anything.
If the Spirit didn’t teach you about those errors like you said He would, if He didn’t guide you into all Truth before allowing you to post blatant error,what makes you think you’re not wrong in OTHER areas?? Possibly just the errors in your tiny post should tell you that your interpretation is wrong,no??
It’s odd that God would make “teacher” a ministry gift to the church, when (if your interpretation is correct), we don’t need men to teach us.
Was God confused??
I especially love the way you read verses out of the Bible (devoid of context) to prove your assertions.
Errrrrrr………what if those verses you rely upon are NOT the inspired ones?? Where are you then?? How would you KNOW??
I know…………your “inner witness”, right?? Well………..so far that witness has let you down badly. Just ask Abraham’s daughters or Jonah’s whale………if you can find them.
You denigrate Bible knowledge, but I submit to you that you would not find so many supposed contradictions, and ridiculous stories, etc if you HAD more Biblical knowledge.
And your final parting shot about Jesus being led by the Spirit, not by the Word.Ridiculous. We’ve already see that the Spirit WROTE the Bible, no?? So, we are not suggesting that the Spirit does not lead………but that He leads mostly by the Word, and uses that Word to keep you from wandering down the wrong path.
What regard did Jesus have for the Word??
Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is WRITTEN (not “The Spirit witnessed to Me”), Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every WORD that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Mat 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is WRITTEN again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is WRITTEN, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Mat 21:13 And said unto them, It is WRITTEN, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.
Mat 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is WRITTEN of him
Mat 26:31 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is WRITTEN, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad
Mar 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is WRITTEN, This people honoureth me with [their] lips, but their heart is far from me.
Mar 9:12 And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is WRITTEN of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought.
Mar 9:13 But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is WRITTEN of him.
Mar 11:17 And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not WRITTEN, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.
Luk 18:31 Then he took [unto him] the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are WRITTEN by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
Luk 20:17 And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is WRITTEN, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?
Luk 22:37 For I say unto you, that this that is WRITTEN must yet be accomplished in me
Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were WRITTEN in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me.
Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is WRITTEN, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
We could go on and on, but let’s not forget THIS jewel……..
Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the WORDS that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.
Again, we are NOT saying that the Spirit does not guide, but that He guides primarily by the Word. Can He guide otherwise?? Not really, because even when being guided where a verse does not specifically cover a circumstance, the Spirit guides according to the principles in the Word. If what we feel led to do violates the Word, it should be rejected.
It must be a combination of the Word and Spirit……..keeping in mind that since the Spirit AUTHORED the Word, being led by the Word through the Spirit is the ideal.
Otherwise, all we have is one saying the Spirt led him to be a Moonie, and another saying that the Spirit led him to be a JW, and another saying the Spirit led him to join up with Benny Hinn, and another saying the Spirit led him to leave his wife…………
And there is NO objective standard to ascertain Truth. Want to know if the Spirit is leading you?? Consult WHAT HE HAS WRITTEN, for He never changes, and He will not violate His own written instructions.
Jesus called the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms (all of the Old Testament) scripture and he says that the Scriptures cannot be broken,
cannot fail.
Some might say those are instances of verses that “contain” God’s word, but that it doesn’t mean the Bible is God’s word. The problem with that response appears when we look at what Jesus said.
Luke 24:44-45, “Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures. ”
Notice that Jesus speaks about what is written regarding him in the Old Testament. Then John the apostle writes that Jesus opened their mind to understand the Scriptures. What Scriptures? The Law (Moses), the prophets, and the Psalms. This was a common designation for the Old Testament.
Therefore, Jesus says that the written form of the Old Testament is Scripture. Jesus goes on to deal with the religious leaders who would violate these scriptures which he called “the word of God.”
·Matt 15:6, “he is not to honor his father or his mother.’ And thus you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition.”
·Mark 7:13, “thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”
·John 10:35 “If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken).”
Jesus never said the scriptures contain the word of God. He said they were the word of God. Therefore, we can see that the word of God is the written form of Scripture. In fact, we are told by Paul not to exceed what is written. Note, Paul doesn’t say to not exceed the parts of the scripture that contain God’s word, he says not to exceed what is written!
1 Cor. 4:6, “Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that in us you might learn not to exceed what is written, in order that no one of you might become arrogant in behalf of one against the other.”
It is the written form that is proclaimed as being Scripture, unbreakable, the word of God, and the standard of which we are not to exceed. This can only be true, if the written form is the Word of God, not just something that subjectively contains the word of God.
The Bible is full of citations where it quotes God. However, it also has citations of non-inspired individuals, such as Judas, Herod, etc. Satan, for example, lied when addressing Eve in The Garden of Eden.
This means that the Bible contains a record of a lie. But how can such an error be included in the Word of God and still have the word of God be inerrant since a lie is an error?
The answer is that the Bible inerrantly records the lie. It makes no mistakes in its reporting of events, in its proclamation of truth, and in its revelation of God’s will. Where it may record the lies, failures, deception, etc. of various individuals, it does so perfectly and without error.
Likewise, when it records historical events, genealogies, etc., it does so using the idioms and cultural norms of the time — yet it is without error.
Jesus acknowledged this when he said that the Word of God, the Scripture, cannot be broken. This means that it cannot fail. Why? because the written form of the word of God, which is Scripture, is inspired and because it is inspired it cannot fail, it must be fulfilled.
Remember, Jesus called the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms (all of the Old Testament) scripture and he says that the Scriptures cannot be broken, cannot fail. He was obviously referring to the written form of the Old Testament:
·Luke 24:44-45, “Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures.”
·John 10:35 “If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken).”
If a citation of a city was incorrect, is that not a failure of Scripture? If a date is wrong, is that not a failure of scripture? Likewise, would not an error in a fact, likewise be a failure in the Scripture? Of course it would! But Jesus says the Scriptures cannot be broken. They cannot fail. Is Jesus wrong?
Judge Not,
If you claim that the Bible contains the word of God but not as the word of God is made, you’re s undermining the very trustworthiness of God’s Word.
How you to decide what are is and is not inspired, and therefore true, if the very breath of God moving through a sinner results in documents with mistakes?
Does this inspire trust in God’s Word? Does it promote security and rest in believing God’s Word? Obviously not……..if anything, it’s seem to promote nothing but confusion and discouragement when taking the Lord seriously when we cannot even take what He’s claimed to be of Him as TRUTH…..and have no standard of verifying
That’d seem to be a waste of time and energy…….and you had May as well “eat, drink, and be merry” (I Corinthians 15:29-34)……
Pray you understand my heart and that God’ll continue to open your eyes to the danger of doing as you’re doing by promoting what seems to be “subjectivity”……
You can take the Whole Word of God as being inspired by Him, and I believe that the contradictions will make sense to you if you continue to earnestly seek Him.
Blessings, Brash…..
Where in Scripture does it say that the Ninevites worshipped Dagon, the fish God?
And if Jonah was swallowed by “a great fish”, and not a whale, why would Jesus say when referring to Jonah:
“For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the WHALE’S BELLY; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth” (Matthew 12:40, KJV)?
(MN: I guess the Holy Spirit didn’t translate the Greek for you, or at least He didn’t do a very good job of it. The word translated as “whale” in the King James, is κῆτος (KEETOS is a transliteration of the Greek). And the word actually means (according to one of the Giants on whose shoulders I stand “A great fish, a sea monster.” It does not mean “whale”. In all probability, the folks in Israel likely never saw a whale and wouldn’t have known what one was. )
HI JD!! As for the reference to Dagon among the Ninevites, Sir A.H. Layard’s “Ninevah And It’s Remains” and H. Clay Trumbull in “The Journal Of Biblical Literature” among others which deal with the archaeological discoveries of the city.
Interestingly, the city of Ninevah(which was rediscovered in the 19th century) was found under a tell called Nabi Yunus by the indigenous Arabs. Nabi Yunus is Arabic for “The Prophet Jonah”.
BTW Judge Not……….instead of Googling Bible difficulties and presenting them here, so someone here can Google the ENORMOUS number of web resources to refute your posts, why not simply Google for the answers presented yourself??
The answers to the difficulties and seeming contradictions are easliy found………..that is, if one is genuinely searching for them, rather than pushing an agenda.
There’s no reason to present this stuff here. If you are interested in Truth the answers are available. If you are not interested in Truth, no answer will suffice anyway. Do some HONEST research.
Did he/she not think some of us have heard these so called “condradictions” before? I have a saved website in my favorites that deal with these so called errors in the bible. However, if I feel someone is sincere in their search, I will answer some of them, but if someone is looking to start a debate, I move on, or maybe say, one day we will all know the answer to that one. Good point you made Gary V, as Judge not is looking for KJR to start a debate. I have found that those who say for example, If you can show me so and so in the bible, then I would believe. To that I would say even I I showed you, you would not believe. Many walked the same grounds that Jesus walked and saw his works and did not believe so what make you any different.
I AM searching for the answers. Heck, that is why i’m here. But the difference between you and i is i’m not deceiving myself by listening only to biblical inerrantists. I listen to both sides. So if you’re interested in Truth, check out the following links:
http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1992/2/2city92.html
http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1998/2/982front.html
(MN: If you are here to find out the truth, here it is: Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Him. The Bible is the Word of God. It is appointed to men but once to die and after that the judgment. You are saved from condemnation through faith, not works. God saves you through grace, by the washing of the Holy Spirit, not through works lest any man should boast. This is the truth.
Judge Not, it’s interesting that you only posted the “other side’s” arguments. Now go to an inerrantist side, read their arguments, compare themto the Contradictarians and decide which one you want to believe. In other words, if you are sooooo interested in the truth, YOU dig for it. As I have said before, this site is not here to convince you about the inerrancy of the Bible. It is here to warn those who accept its inerrancy about the pimps and pimpettes who misuse and twist the Bible. If anyone out there wishes to discuss this with him be my guest. I will send you each other’s e-mail address. I am not going to dedicate anymore bandwidth to it. Is that clear enough for you Judge Not? )
Got it…
good points judge not
Judge Not,
Those are some great Bible verses that you quote. I like that you quoted them in ESV, even though I am not totally of reformed thought (maybe deformed - hehe). I am a new reader here so not sure if you were attempting to insult by the ESV quotes. Romans 8:14 was not missed… It is very clear. We are led by the Spirit. And the Spirit is the Spirit of ____? I laugh at how you say that Paul “only” says that all scriptures are profitable for instruction, reproof, and correction. Only? Did you mean just Paul when you said that or are you diminishing the profitability of scripture to make your case? Jesus didn’t say look to the Bible because that is like having a dictionary say look up a word in the dictionary (Read first chapter of John - Jesus was the Word).
Those who worship him must worship him in spirit and truth. I love that verse. If I order cake AND ice cream, am I just going to get cake?
You don’t believe the Bible is the final authority, the inspired infallable word of God? You don’t have to attend a seminary to think that is just silly. The Bible isn’t a la carte. I hope you don’t do your taxes like you follow the Bible, cause Uncle Sam is gonna come knockin’.
Some theologians teach……. the Bible is inspired and authoritative…….that it is an accurate revelation of what God wants us to know about salvation - but they leave room for minor errors in non-crucial areas. One theologian, for instance, says that the Holy Spirit’s work in inspiring the Bible only guaranteed “selectivity of events and accuracy of reporting and interpretation sufficient to achieve God’s purpose throughout the rest of man’s existence.” (Dewey Beegle, Inspiration of Scripture, p. 190)
Classic Christianity, however, rests on the assurance that the Bible is completely accurate. It may contain statements that are (1) figures of speech; (2) non-technical descriptions; or (3) difficult to understand. But actual errors would fall into a different kind of category.
If Scripture has errors, no matter how small, the book can no longer be our standard of truth. I become the standard of truth, as I determine which Bible statements are right and which are wrong.
And if I can’t trust God to get the facts straight on things like dates and measurements (where I can check on Him), why should I expect Him to be more accurate in areas like sin and salvation (where I can’t check on Him)?
The Bible doesn’t use the word “inerrant,” but the idea is obvious.
Psalm 19:7-9 - “The law of the Lord is perfect … the testimony of the Lord is sure … the commandment of the Lord is pure … the judgments of the Lord are true forever.”
· Psalm 119:43 - “the word of truth.”
· Psalm 119:142 - “Thy law is the truth.”
· Psalm 119:160 -”Thy word is true from the beginning.”
· John 17:17 - “Thy word is truth.”
An inaccurate Bible contradicts God’s character quality of absolute truthfulness.
· Titus 1:2 - “God who cannot lie.”
· Hebrews 6:18 - “It is impossible for God to lie.”
Some consider this a minor issue, but the idea that the Bible contains errors opens the door to serious spiritual danger. When people decide they have the authority to label one verse as a mistake, they soon find others that they consign to the “error” category……….. and Each generation rejects more and more Scripture, as it gets in the way of their own opinions.
Beryle,
AMEN right back at ya.
Meek,
You sound like a nice person and all but you have to be honest with yourself. Creflo drives Bently’s, lives in Mansions, wears tailored made suits, and preaches only about prosperity. So I have some questions for you Meek. When has Creflo ever preached about holiness? When has he ever preached on Godliness? What about salvation? When has he preached about dying daily to your wicked flesh. What about making disciples of men and being prepared to give the good news message of Christ?
None of this comes out of Creflo’s mouth. Creflo wants one thing and one thing only - CASH MONEY. People who follow pimps are just as selfish as they are.
Lets face it. Do you find yourself praying more about getting a better job, more money, and a bigger house VS praying for souls to be saved, dying daily, and living a holy life? You will understand what side of the line you stand on when you answer that question.
Kyle
Judge Not,
Concerning your statement on historical accuracies in the Bible, I believe the Bible is very trustworthy as a historical document. If you were to look at a chart that compared the biblical documents with other ancient documents, I’d think you’d see that the Bible is in a class by itself regarding the number of ancient copies and their reliability.
It should be obvious that the biblical documents, especially in the New Testament documents, are superior in their quantity, time span from original occurrence, and textual reliability. The question is not into documents a reliably transmitted to us. In the question is whether or not the biblical documents record actual historical accounts.
If you open to almost any page in the Bible you will find a name of a place and/or a person. Much of this can be verified from archaeology.
Consider how the walls of Jericho have been found, destroyed just as the Bible says. Many critics doubted that Nazareth ever existed, yet archaeologists have found a first-century synagogue inscription at Caesarea verified its existence. Finds have verified Herod the Great and his son Herod Antipas. The remains of the Apostle Peter’s house have been found at Capernaum. Bones with nail scars through the wrists and feet have been uncovered as well demonstrating the actuality of crucifixion. The High Priest Caiaphas’ bones have been discovered in an ossuary (a box used to store bones).
There is, of course, a host of archaeological digs that corroborate biblical records such as Bethsaida, Bethany, Caesarea Philippi, Capernaum, Cyprus, Galatia, Philippi, Thessalonica, Berea, Athens, Corinth, Ephesus, Rome, etc. The list goes on
Though archaeology cannot prove that the Bible is the inspired word of God, it has the ability to prove whether or not if some events and locations described therein are true or false. So far, however, there isn’t a single archaeological discovery that disproves the Bible in any way.
Therefore, since it has been verified over and over again throughout the centuries, we can continue to trust it as an accurate historical document.
Meek. Get a Bible. Wow. Creflo? Not in it to profit? Wow. This is a true visual aid.
No matter how much love we teach and preach….you better be attentive to the action. I actually believe he continuously is on that “love” kick to sweeten (those mesmerized with his words) up.
I am in fact still on his mailing list from when I used to bombard his ministry with cash in belief of his words.
Then, I finally woke up to the Word (Praise God).
Meek….Wake up.
Let the church say “Amen”!
I was talking about contradictions of the Bible. If you have your Bibles, please turn with me to 1 Samuel 17:50-58. Ready? Read:
50 So David prevailed over the Philistine with a sling and with a stone, and smote the Philistine, and slew him; but there was no sword in the hand of David.
51 Therefore David ran, and stood upon the Philistine, and took his sword, and drew it out of the sheath thereof, and slew him, and cut off his head therewith. And when the Philistines saw their champion was dead, they fled.
52 And the men of Israel and of Judah arose, and shouted, and pursued the Philistines, until thou come to the valley, and to the gates of Ekron. And the wounded of the Philistines fell down by the way to Shaaraim, even unto Gath, and unto Ekron.
53 And the children of Israel returned from chasing after the Philistines, and they spoiled their tents.
54 And David took the head of the Philistine, and brought it to Jerusalem; but he put his armour in his tent.
55 And when Saul saw David go forth against the Philistine , he said unto Abner, the captain of the host, Abner, whose son is this youth? And Abner said, As thy soul liveth, O king, i cannot tell.
56 And the king said, Enquire thou whose son the stripling is.
57 And as David returned from the slaughter of the Philistine, Abner took him, and brought him before Saul with the head of the Philistine in his hand.
58 And Saul said to him, Whose son art thou, thou young man? And David answered, I am the son of thy servant Jesse the Bethlehemite.
So David had his tent? And he brought the head of Goliath to Jerusalem? It’s even more strange, because Jerusalem did not belong to the Jews at that time. The city was taken only later by… David.
In verse 57 Saul asks David: “Whose son art thou, thou youth?”
Seems like that was the first time Saul saw him; however, one must read verses 32-37 of the same chapter to see just the opposite. But the full absurdity of Saul’s question becomes evident when you read chapter 16, in which Samuel anointed David to be a king of Israel. Let’s see what happened then:
1 Samuel 16:14-23:
14 But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him.
15 And Saul’s servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.
16 Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well.
17 And Saul said unto his servants, Provide me now a man that can play well, and bring him to me.
18 Then answered one of the servants, and said, Behold, i have seen a son of Jesse the Bethlehemite, that is cunning in playing, and a mighty valiant man, and a man of war, and prudent in matters, and a comely person, and the LORD is with him.
19 Wherefore Saul sent messengers unto Jesse, and said, Send me David thy son, which is with the sheep.
20 And Jesse took an ass laden with bread, and a bottle of wine, and a kid, and sent them by David his son unto Saul.
21 And David came to Saul, and stood before him: and he loved him greatly; and he became his armourbearer.
22 And Saul sent to Jesse, saying, Let David, i pray thee, stand before me; for he hath found favour in my sight.
23 And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.
Wow. Looks like they knew each other quite well, doesn’t it? And didn’t Saul actually know whose son David was? To add to that, in light of what the above scripture says, it seems odd that Abner, the captain of the host, did not know anything about David, whom Samuel had anointed before to reign over Israel and thus replace Saul!
There is no mention of WHEN David took Goliath’s head to Jerusalem, is there?? Does it say “David ran willy-nilly all the way to Jerusalem, and deposited Saul’s head there.”???
No, it does not……..and reading into the text more than is stated is a problem. Could not David have kept the head of Goliath as a trophy?? A remembrance of God’s might on his behalf, and he brought it into Jerusalem when he took the city as his residence?? I mean……….that’s quite a trphy to just throw away, especially after taking it with you rather than just leaving it on the field of battle.
And,since David has just saved Israel, Saul wanted to know who his father was, probably to show the father proper respect for his son David.
In 1 Samuel 16, the Spirit of the Lord had left Saul (16:14) and an evil spirit came and afflicted Saul (16:23). David came and then played for Saul to sooth him. Chapter 17 begins the well known story of David and Goliath with NO MENTION of how much time passes between David playing the harp for Saul and Goliath’s challenge. It may very well have been many months or many YEARS .
I don’t know about you, but I changed quite a bit physically from the time I was a “ruddy youth” .
Nevertheless, David was the youngest of the sons of Jesse (17:14), who was a youth (17:33), and who tended the flocks (17:15). David is then known as a young musician and a sheep herder, not a warrior as were his three oldest brothers (17:13-14). Saul and David have conversations about David doing battle with Goliath and Saul offers David his armor (17:38). David refuses the armor and goes out to kill Goliath. Saul then asks Abner, “Whose son is this young man?” And Abner said, “By your life, O king, I do not know,” (17:55). In verse 58 Saul says, “Whose son are you, young man?” And David answered, “I am the son of your servant Jesse the Bethlehemite.”
Considering that time had elapsed, is it surprising that two of the National leaders might not remember the father of some boy who used to play the harp for Saul, or that Saul didn’t recognize David from his youth??
The point is, there are certainly difficult passages in the Bible……….but the fact that you may not be able to reconcile them yourself does not render them uninspired.
NOW………..nice attempt at distraction, but I couldn’t help but notice that you didn’t answer ANY of my questions. I imagine that the attempted distraction was supposed to get us all flustered so we wouldn’t notice.
I addressed your post point-by-point. I would appreciate the same courtesy extended to me. After you have done so, if you want to bring up more troubling verses, so be it. But it’s rude to ignore the points I made in favor of posting new scenarios for me to answer.
First………..answer me. Then, I will answer you. That is how dialogue takes place. Nothing you posted here has ANY bearing upon the points I made about defining what IS or IS NOT inspired in the Word, or about the lack of Scriptural evidence that the Holy Spirit is to be used as a tool to judge doctrine apart from the Word, or that Jesus didn’t rely on the Spirit exclusive of the Word as you stated (and if HE couldn’t do it, you have NO hope BTW), or that the entire OT as WRITTEN (in it’s entirety) was called Scripture by Jesus, and neither He nor any other writer made the artificial distinctives you have,ior that God set teachers in the church in perpetuity when you say we need no teachers, or that the Holy Spirit you relied upon to guide you could not even keep your only post free from error .
Once these and the other points have been addressed, we can move on. But not until then.
Judge Not,
Proverbs 14:6
6 The mocker seeks wisdom and finds none,
but knowledge comes easily to the discerning.
Brah, Please don’t take me the wrong way in saying this. I’m really trying to go to bat for you by being gracious/considerate (and even Gary has too, though that may change soon enough), but it seems as if you’re bent on not taking any of the advice/counsel offered to you seriously……or even willing to adress any of the points(not opinions, mind you) given by GaryV, myself or others……even though we’ve tried our best to adress many of yours already from the Word.
And as you don’t wish to waste time arguing, neither does anyone here at PP.org. That would be most unwise/unprofitable for all involved:
Proverbs 17:14
14 Starting a quarrel is like breaching a dam;
so drop the matter before a dispute breaks out
Proverbs 17:19
19 He who loves a quarrel loves sin;
he who builds a high gate invites destruction.
Proverbs 20:3
3 It is to a man’s honor to avoid strife,
but every fool is quick to quarrel.
Proverbs 26:21
21 As charcoal to embers and as wood to fire,
so is a quarrelsome man for kindling strife.
So, to avoid any possible strife/quarreling, are you AT LEAST open to the possibility that you may be in error or willing to change your stance if we could logially show you from the Word that your position really lacks a solid basis?
Even concerning the apparent contradictions you see, if we were to challenge you to look further at the verses in context (which I believe will help the problems you see to disappear and cause many things fall into place), would you be willing to take up the offer?
Or is the matter altogether closed to you and you’re just here to prove a point? Cause if it is, I’ll gladly drop out of this debate. Can’t say the same for GaryV, but I’m guessing he may feel the same…..and Lord help you should you provoke his “RIKI TIKI” persona to come back from the grave (trust me, with Gary, you’ve been privelaged to deal with the “tame version” of him, lol lol….no offense, Gary)
Just trying to help you out, brah……Blessings
GaryV,
you’re still missing my point.
First of all, i’m not presenting here my truth, i’m pointing to YOUR Spirit to show you everything you need to know. Because, as i said earlier, many times it’s very difficult to get God’s Word right. So you can be led by the Holy Spirit and still make mistakes, like i did in my post. And surely, that doesn’t make me being misled by the Spirit.
Yes, i do believe the Bible only contains the Word of God.
Consider John 1:1:
“…the Word was God.”
Or how about John 1:14?
“The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.”
As you all well know It’s talking about Jesus. Jesus is the true Word of God, not the Bible! When Jesus abides in you, you no longer need the Bible to teach you - Jesus will teach you!
“Abide in me, and i IN you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me” (John 15:4).
“…When God… was pleased to reveal His son IN me so that i might preach… i did not consult any man…” (Galations 1:15-16).
“…Christ IN you, the hope of glory” (Colossians 1:27).
I could go on and on citing the verses that clearly show truth can only be found within us, but seems like it won’t make sense to you anyway.
Now, concerning my statement that Jesus didn’t believe much of what is written in the Old Testament, but used it symbolically…
It doesn’t appear to be so strange if you read that Jesus Himself said in Matthew 13:13-17 and Mark 4:11-12 that He speaks in parables so that men couldn’t hear the truth of what he was saying literally. We can’t even take some stories in the Gospels literally.
“Then Jesus was led up into the wilderness by the Spirit to be tempted by the devil” (Matthew 4:1).
You know the story. But now, let’s read verse 8:
“Again, the devil taketh him up into an axceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them.”
Needless to say, there’s NO mountain in the whole Earth high enough to let you see “all the kingdoms of the world”; what is going on here is a parable.
How about the idea of Jesus wandering in the wilderness of His mind, fighting with the religious ideas (the devil, that is) attacking Him? And notice, every time Jesus speaks back to the “devil” with Scripture! He’s trying to overcome his tempter by using the same weapon that is used against Him and thus showing the enemy that his source is not something that can be relied upon.
Take a look at Luke 24:25-27, if you would:
25 Then he said unto them, O FOOLS, AND SLOW OF HEART TO BELIEVE ALL THAT THE PROPHETS HAVE SPOKEN:
26 OUGHT NOT CHRIST TO HAVE SUFFERED THESE THINGS, AND TO ENTER INTO HIS GLORY?
27 AND BEGINNING AT MOSES AND ALL THE PROPHETS, HE EXPOUNDED UNTO THEM IN ALL THE SCRIPTURES THE THINGS CONCERNING HIMSELF.
Notice, Jesus was only talking about the scriptures CONCERNING HIMSELF, which the Bible says He opened their mind to understand. What about the rest of the scriptures then?
We do not even know who wrote the books of Moses and Samuel. Of course, you would say the answer is obvious, but the problem is one of the books supposedly written by Moses describes how he died, was buried and the mourning of the Jews for him. Samuel went even further and wrote 27 chapters after he died.
GaryV, maybe there’s nothing strange about being a sinner and staying God’s friend, but you certainly can’t compare David, Joshua and some other O.T. heroes with the Apostles. The Apostles were not sinless, but they loved God and hated sin. David only said he loved God, yet in all his actions he stayed wicked, even in the very day of his death. You may think him holy, but consider what Acts 2:29, 34 says:
“Men and brethren, let me freely speak to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. For David is NOT ascended into the heavens.”
And please, don’t think i’m here only to prove my point. I’m very open to correction. In fact, i really love you guys (though i feel like this is not mutual) and enjoy your comments.
Blessings……
(MN: I had actually intended to cut this back by about half. But I accidently approved it for publication. Now that it’s out here, I think I should leave it with mods. Sorry GDub. I hope this doesn’t upset you. It’s a little over 200 words. )
I’m sorry you feel the love is not mutual…………I assure you that is not the case. This is not a fight against YOU as a person, but a contention against your ideas. There’s a vast difference between the two. I consider you a brother………but I cannot agree with your doctrine here, nonetheless.
GaryV,
you’re still missing my point.
First of all, i’m not presenting here my truth, i’m pointing to YOUR Spirit to show you everything you need to know. Because, as i said earlier, many times it’s very difficult to get God’s Word right. So you can be led by the Holy Spirit and still make mistakes, like i did in my post. And surely, that doesn’t make me being misled by the Spirit.
(GaryV) The dichotomy in this statement is the very crux of the issue. IF you are being led by the Spirit (and let me be clear that the verb for “led” in this verse means “to lead by laying hold of, and this way to bring to the point of destination: of an animal”.
This is important……..for it’s NOT being “led” as through an impulse, or an “inner witness”. It’s being LAID HOLD OF AND CARRIED, as a shepherd carries a lamb. In this case, there CAN BE no room for error since the Holy Spirit is literally CARRYING you along, negating any impulse you may have to go elsewhere.
The very verse so often cited as a pretext for the view you present is actually the strongest possible proof against that view.
(Anon)Yes, i do believe the Bible only contains the Word of God.
Consider John 1:1:
“…the Word was God.”
Or how about John 1:14?
“The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.”
As you all well know It’s talking about Jesus. Jesus is the true Word of God, not the Bible! When Jesus abides in you, you no longer need the Bible to teach you - Jesus will teach you!
(GaryV) Again, you neglect to consider the WHOLE COUNSEL of God on the subject. You cannot take select verses that buttress the point you are trying to make, and form doctrine from them.
I’m not saying Jesus and the Holy Spirit don’t teach……..I;m saying that the same Word you cite for your narrow view ALSO sets teachers in the Body, with NO indication whatsoever that this gift is ever negated for the mature. You neglect to consider John 17, where Jesus says this…….”Jhn 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.”
Jesus leaves no hint that the Word of Truth is ever left in the dust by the Spirit……..especially considering that the Spirit is the AUTHOR of the Word.
(Anon)”Abide in me, and i IN you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me” (John 15:4).
(GaryV) Absolutely, but that is not the subject in question. The subject is whether the Word becomes redundant and therefore useless, not whether we should maintain relationship with the Son.
(Anon)”…When God… was pleased to reveal His son IN me so that i might preach… i did not consult any man…” (Galations 1:15-16).
(GaryV) Context is king when interpreting Scripture. Paul was an Apostle……..a closed and unique office. Is this EVER presented as the norm in Scripture?? Of course not…….this sort of thinking is the impetus behind these idiotic “Prayer Hankies” being sent out by the pimps. Just because the Bible records the UNIQUE experience of a man in an office CLOSED for 2,000 years, does not mean that we can use this as a guideline for our own circumstance.
If Paul was indeed advocating that we are to folow his unique example, in his CLOSED OFFICE of Apostle, you must explain what he ACTUALLY taught to those he discipled.
1Ti 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to READING, to exhortation, to DOCTRINE.
1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the DOCTRINE; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
1Ti 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the WORD AND DOCTRINE.
2Ti 3:16 ALL SCRIPTURE [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound DOCTRINE; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
There are a multitude of other verses that could be cited, but there are 2 things evident.
1) Though talking here to those who are TEACHERS, Paul NEVER makes the SLIGHTEST inference that they are to leave off the Word in favor of the “inner witness”.
2)Paul NEVER gives instruction in the Word that ANYONE was to follow the path God chose for him, because it was indeed unique to his office. To the contrary, there is nothing else given except that these teachers (whose office Paul certainly didn’t seem to want to go away) TRAIN UP DISCIPLES IN THE WORD. And again, no mention of eschewing the Word in favor of an “inner witness”.
There is good solid Biblical reasoning behind this. You ARE a New Creation, but you STILL HAVE a fallen nature to contend with,and a finite understanding of all things. The Word is then the tool the Spirit uses to allow you to judge revelation. Without that tool, we have no objective standard to judge revelation by. We are to “test the spirits to see whether they are from God.” That is the purpose of the Word, and we see nowhere in Scripture where this paradigm is abandoned.
(Anon)”…Christ IN you, the hope of glory” (Colossians 1:27).
Again, “glory” here is not an abrogation of the commands of Paul to study the Word. It has nothing to do with the subject at hand, as if studying the Word is not glorifying to God.
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
(Anon)I could go on and on citing the verses that clearly show truth can only be found within us, but seems like it won’t make sense to you anyway.
It’s not that it doesn’t make sense. I FIRMLY believe that we rely upon the Spirit……….but the Spirit tells us to confirm and test revelation BY THE WORD. Joseph Smith had an “inner witness” too. So did Mohammed………and Carles Taze Russell (JWs)…….and David Koresh, etc, etc, etc.
The dangers of the paradigm you suggest are evident, and they violate the commands of Scripture.
We must take the WHOLE COUNSEL of God on any given subject, or we open ourselves to deception, error, and ruin.
(Anon)Now, concerning my stat