I love YouTube.com. How else would I be able to get a hold of stuff like this? To the readers who pay attention and send in the links: Thanks!
Would any of you care to tell me just what the Bishop said that is going to help me to actually LIVE the Christian life? Truth be told, it’s bozos like this who, over the years, made it possible for the pimps to come in and scoop up all the sheeple.
After hearing this “sermon” what, exactly, does the believer have to fend off the wolves?
I’d hate to be the armor bearer who had to clean the microphone off after the sermon.
Well looks like the organist got something out of it.
“ORGAN PLAYING PRACTICE”!!!!!!
binks
You should be able to have a field day with Pastor Tony Smith.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLnTpN9d1Rc
keywords: tony smith
I have no idea what the message might be, but the organ tickler is right on time. I’m guessing this clip is from the 80’s based on the eye glass frames and suit styles. Speaking of armor bearer’s there will be a training conference in Kansas City featuring someone from T.D’s camp. For $45 bucks you can learn what it takes to be an armor bearer. How about you send me the cash and I’ll make sure they get it. Okay.
are you serious. I’m in Kansas City, Let me know I would like to go down there and see what they are really doing. Like maybe taking some more money from them. Let me know
binks
binks!
KC native here! How’s my hometown?
We can even learn how to put Armor All on the tires while the car is still rolling.
I know Jacob calls him El Shaddai he use to call him (ha) God, but now he calls him God almighty (ha)
I feel like I would be a sheep in a shepherd-less field. I would follow anybody who sounded similar. So if a wolf came with a different message but same sound, slightly better with understandable words, I’d follow. Simply I’d have no guidepost set, from this sermon excerpt.
Shalom and L.O.L.,
O.K., I really really tried to discern the sermon but there really was no topic. This man was just speaking forth Biblical Characters, peppered with “Uuum Yeah uh!”, and pointing. Probally graduated at the top of his class too.
One could definitely work themselves up in a frenzy and “give all they can give”.
Is there a time limit to discern a sermon? The clip wasn’t very long…and it looks (and sounds) like the clip was from the middle or end of the sermon. So how can it be said there is not topic? There very well may be a topic…maybe it lacks substance or sound Biblical reference/application, but can we tell that in about 4 minutes of a clip?
Not much, other than the fact that he is willing to talk for four minutes and not say anything. This fact alone doesn’t bode well for the rest of his sermon.
Actually, he sounds a great deal like the pastor of Greater Grace Temple (a Oneness Pentecostal by the name of Charles Ellis). His speeches useually start off with him talking. But about half way through, he starts the harking and in-breath grunting. The rest of the sermon is pretty much useless.
I hear ya, but can’t totally agree. For me, I would prefer to hear the whole sermon versus allowing a 4 minute clip to determine what the WHOLE sermon was about…I think 4 minutes is too short to make an overall assessment. For all we know, the preaching prior to the clip we viewed was sound on every point. Would this 4 minute clip totally devalue any Biblically sound preaching he did prior to the taping that we saw? I have read on this site that even John Jenkins has a sound point here and there (sparingly, but there nonetheless). So do you throw the sound teaching out with the ramblings?
I’m just trying to understand where we draw the line….
I agree
Tweet you have a point, but the thing that throws me is that, why does it have to be a circus. With all of the snorting and grunting like a pig, how can the message be effective? Even if some of the things are true, yet I would still have to filter through the theatrics to understand. Oh and I didn’t mention that even the enemy has some true teachings also, yet he is labeled as the deciever, the accuser, father of lies, the evil one… Therefore, this is were disernment comes into play.
Plus the last i checked, God’s people where supposed to be disciplined and orderly. Not to say that there shouldn’t be any joy, but come on now, not this mess.
Okay…It’s not that I don’t understand you or Melvin concerning this clip. If I am understanding correctly, you are saying this clip at the very least makes you “question” what the rest of the sermon was like…for example did it have substance or not given the display in the clip…Right?
Because we don’t see the sermon prior to the clip, we cannot concretely determine its effectiveness. Not to mention that I think “effectiveness” may have an element of relativity.
But as I said before…I hear your side of the discussion, just can’t agree on all points.
Thanks for the response
(Tweet: “Not to mention that I think “effectiveness” may have an element of relativity.”
Gotta agree with you a bit on that point, Tweet.
Nothing wrong, for example, with a preacher who acts very energetic/animated when conducting a sermon (i.e. hoping/hollering, telling the audience “Turn to your neighbor and say……”, using eccentric humor/methods, etc……Being raise around it, I guess I’m used to it, and kind of like it too)…….
Whereas it can turn others off (Imagine a Charismatic preaching in a conservative/quiet Presbyterian church on “Predestination”, lol), sometimes it helps others stay engaged to what’s being taught, and even Jesus himself was engaging to His audiences (someone labeling the “Men of Gawd” of his time as foxes/dogs, or who spoke in mind-blowing parables/illustrations comparing the familiar things of the people to the unfamiliar things of God is pretty engaging)
The issue, however, comes whenever that’s the ONLY thing preachers go for…..Theatrics…….simply being engaging/animated but not engaging with God’s Truth as the Standard, which opens the door to do as false teachers did (II Corinthians 10:10-13, II Corinthians 11:3-6)….
And an audience hungry for Engagement (entertainment) rather than TRUTH first isn’t a good audience to begin with (II Timothy 4:3-4)
(TOG: “Plus the last i checked, God’s people where supposed to be disciplined and orderly.”)
Was meaning to let you know how much I agree much with your point, TruthofGod.
1 Corinthians 14:26-33 (New International Version)
Orderly Worship
26What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two–or at the most three–should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.
29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets.
33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.
Everything done in worship services must be done in harmony/with order beneficial to the worshippers. This principle touches every aspect–singing, preaching, and the exercise of spiritual gifts.
Those contributing to the service (singers, speakers, readers) must have love as their chief motivation….and must do things in a way that will strengthen the faith of other believers……
When there’s chaos, the church is not allowing God to work among believers as He would like.
Thanks G-dub, thats exactly where i was getting at. One of he major things that we (as a professing body) are missing besides biblical knowledge, is the focus on a discipline and orderly lifestyle. We have become so attracted to the world and the things of the world that we’ve embraced all that there is. This has caused us to actually take alligance with the world in alot of worldly matters. For instance civil rights, humanitarianism, and social justice.
Example: over the weekend i watched a program on TVone with ‘Kirk Franklin, Rev. (perm) Al Sharpton, Some preacher from Connecticut, and an Aethiest comedian. The general topic was “The relevance of the Black Church”. The Aethiest fella started with a statement of how he doesn’t find the Black Church to be relevant because he doesn’t believe in God. The rest of the panel expressed their rebuttal towards his comments, and it went from there. The thing that really perked my ears up was when good Ol’ Rev. asked Puffy Franklin whether or not church should be more contemporary. Well of course Franklin agreed and added that “WHEN GOD REDEEMS A PEOPLE HE LOOKS TO INFULTRATE THE CULTURE, HE WANTS TO GET INTO THAT CULTURE. SO YOU CAN STILL COME TO CHURCH WITH TIMS (timberlands) AND SEAN JEAN, AND THE FEMALES CAN WEAR MINISKIRTS AND STILL PRAISE GOD.” Now with all of this said, by the end of the program Mr. Franklin volunteered his self as still a fellow brother of the Aethiest cat because “we are black”. You know, because of slavery we can’t let anything divide us, even if its belief in God. We still have a common goal to reach and thats unity with in the race. WOW!
Now for most people this comment should send off an alarm that K. Franklin was in deliberate error. For the scriptures called God’s people to be humble and meek and for the females to be modest and shamefaced. In addition, there is no greater unity outside of the spiritual unity of believers. That unity is made through Christ and not the slavery or the Civil Rights movement. But no, we would be surprised that most professing believers actually agree with that mentality. We are in a time where God’s ways and statues are viewed as foolish and out dated. You know, like an all knowing omnipresent God would actually ignorant of the times.
The sad part is that the churches aren’t teaching the people God’s will and that we are to conform to his will and his laws. We are just being taught that God owes us, and we deserve the best. All we have to do is claim that thing and it will be granted unto us. Its nothing but the message of pride, lasciviousnes, and covetousness.
Too True, Truth oF God………Preach, MAN, PREACH!!!!!!
By the way, Truth of God, thanks for responding……can’t tell you how much it meant for you to share the information you did on “Kirk” (hard to believe he and G.Craig were actually roomates) and how what was portrayed shows the danger that can happen when we as Christians become so focused on being relevant that we eventually end up sacrificing REVERENCE…..
By the way, concerning when he said, FEMALES CAN WEAR MINISKIRTS AND STILL PRAISE GOD.”, I wonder how so…..Perhaps for the girl shakin her thang for Christ, she may be actually trying to worship Him, but the Brah sitting behind her and seeing everything meant for her husband to enjoy is another story…….
Whatever happened to the Biblical Precendence of Modesty?
1 Timothy 2:9
I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes…
TOG. I saw that program about two months ago on TV one.
I commented on here about it, but no one apparently saw it.
It was TERRIBLE. Kirk Franklin couldn’t put up a defense with scripture.
One comment that killed me was when he was talking (he loves to do that apparently)and he stated that Jesus wanted to be apart of the culture….I said WHAT?!
The preacher from Conn appeared to be the only one with a mild amount of Biblical sense, but even he was extreme in the lack of mentioning deliverance through Jesus Christ.
This show SUCKED. Right down to the “Aetheist” comedian.
Kirk….scripture please? Al Sharpton, what the hec are you talking about?!
Kirk is far GONE. I wouldn’t waste my breath on him. His perspective is truly destructive and outlandish.
He really really didn’t have any scriptural support. Just much vernacular jibber-jabber, as to sound relevant.
Toward the end of the show, the aetheist puts Kirk (and Kirk only on the spot), “in one point of the Bible -I mean come on- to have respect for your slaves…..” (sarcasm)
Kirk sits there (as he did the entire convo) and looks around (for support or someone to step in, which did not happen)….
…he looked around and said…”W-W-Well, in some translations it is translated employees”. (while looking over toward Sharpton and the Pastor from Conn as they said nothing to aide him).
Kirk’s interest? A show like this makes it crystal clear.
Shalom Tweet,
I also agree and disagree. It’s just that whether I’m conversating,preaching, or teaching; in four minutes you might not get the topic but you would be understand the four minutes of talking. I’ve entered the middle of many conversations, teachings. etc. and in two minutes could tell where it’s going or has been.
Good Night,
Avishalom(My Father is Peace)
Avishalom….funny, the wife won’t let it go? Yeah…”Twoine” is a little on the feminine side.
My bad.
Makes me think of “In Living Color” with Damon Wayans and David Alan Grier…..”don’t get mad Twaaan”….:lol:
I can’t believe you watche that show (though I must admit, it was funny…..Homey the Clown, Wanda, and Fire Marshall Bill were interesting characters, too)
This was ages ago that I watched In Living Color (Jr. High/beginning of H.S.). Basically before Jim Carrey, Jamie Foxx, and the Wayans Bros, etc became movie stars.
I may get in trouble for saying this but - I absolutely hate buck ‘preachin’. Why must he sing what should be communicated simply? I cannot imagine Jesus hopping around…uh yes uh…on this rock-uh…I’m gonna build my church-ah…YES uh….I will call you PEETERRRRrruah…hav merc-say uh! I saw yah in the womb-mah of your mother…HA! When you were-ruh…a pebble-uh..HA! Peeterr-rah! HA! And Judas-ah. That robber, huh! He turned me in…uh hmm…for the price of a slave-uh! I got somethin’ for him, yes-uh. Wait on it Judassahuuh! Knees will be bowin’ -uh!
The organist was good, though!
That was funny!!!
Armor All? Tires? Rolling?
Ahhh yes…..the memories. Since Cref kicked me to the curb (As his “Armor All Bearer”) it will never be the same.
Binks,
I heard the spot on KGGN -(AM) 890. You know the home of the Gospel Dream Team, ha, ha. This guy on you tube would fit right in with their line up. I just have it on for background and entertainment, cause ain’t too much of nothing really going on–especially any teaching.
nehemiahpaul 92.3 FM KCCV plenty of bible teaching on that station. I couldnt tell you the last time I listened to KPRT or KGGN, KPRT would let muslims on, as long as they had money to pay. Turn to KCCV you will love it, if you love truth, and clear and concise teaching. walkbyf8h KC is good, where did you move to? I’d like to get out of here, if I could get the wife to move because it’s too cold here in the winter. But it’s KC doing good.
binks
binks99!
I’m in Brooklyn NY now. I’ll be down for my parents 60th anniversary so I do appreciate hearing that there’s a station to listen to with sound, biblical teaching.
Mabye it’s just me, but I’ve noticed that the majority of the time people in the audience responded enthuiastically whenever they heard the Word “JESUS!!!”, even though the sermon itself lacked clarity and real substance.
Now I know that the name of Christ has power, and sometimes saying it does something physical to you that can help.
But it seems that, like at this church, most people have been physically trained to respond to the Word without ever considering the meaning behind it ( in a way, it’s much like the psychology experiment with “Pavlove Dog”, where they trained a dog to salivate at the sight of food….)
People have grown up witnessing situations like this so much like this that they believe when you hear “Jesus!” that means to automatically shout, dance, holla, or that something good was/is happening in the church, never mind the many situations where it was used to indicate a myriad of things……..like helplessness, repentance, call to action/sober-mindness, judgement, etc.
Just my observation……
“Pavlove Dog” salivating at the sight of food…..Hmmm…..interesting analogy. Interesting point.
GDub, 200 words. The four hundred leash was for the discussion with the fellow. This isn’t a part of that discussion.
To clarify (and to give justice to those who conducted the experiment)
When a dog encounters food, saliva starts to pour from the salivary glands….and this saliva is needed in order to make the food easier to swallow.
When Pavlov saw that lab dogs drooled without proper stimulus….he began an experiment involving ringing a dinner bell to condition the dogs to druel as if food was being brought to them.
Seeing how animals (and humans) can be trained to respond in a certain way to a particular stimulus is exactly what the video demonstrated.
By nature, the Christian is meant to become joyful/jubilant at the thought of Christ and preparing to dine with Him. However, that was meant to happen for the purpose/practice of serving Him as He is (i.e. in repentance, humility, holiness, etc).
Associate excitement for Him SOLEY with events/environment surrounding us (i.e. hearing the church organ blasting, “Amen!!!!” shoutings, seeing the Pastor/church dancing, hollaring, and all sorts of things not necessarily having relation to Readiness for Him, etc), and you end up committing a “Pavlov”: The environment and one’s experience, not the Savior, conditions them and determines spiritual reflexes meant to come through looking unto Him.
Just as the dogs were trained/manipulated to give responses meant for something but never satisfied, Sad that many have become trained to produce the jubilation that should (by God’s Spirit) naturally for Christians at the thought of Christ, fufilled in connecting with Him, and yet are never brought anything of substance to feed them or complete the process…..
They hear the bell of the Minister hollering “Amen! Glory! Shanda!” and have proper responses given and yet are FULLY never presented to the Savior, the Meat of His Word, or the True Power of His presence……..
All they had was an exercise in “Conditioned Reflexes”, and responses taking them to Dead Ends……
Pray for them, ya’ll…..and Pray Hard…….
This is probably a good explanation for the reaction the crowd at Ebenezer had when the Honorable Minister Louis “Calypso Louie” Farrakhan gave them a visit a couple of years ago. When he spoke and relegated Jesus to the position of prophet, the people went crazy at the mention of Jesus’ name. Never mind what Farrakhan was saying about Jesus. It was really amazing to watch.
Indeed, sir……. and considering it all, it makes sense as to why so much mess is promoted in the church and people are not quick to catch on.
Take attending a Kirk Franklin concert, for example. Many heard the name of Christ, many went to the altar, cried the tears (perhaps thinking that meant brokenness), got excited for Christ and felt the desire/call to live for him.
Of course they feel sincere, but, even though it all felt so real, they were never exposed to the real deal…
All they ended up with were the outer “trappings” of a “conversion experience but nothing of real substance…..and because they’ve been raised in that environment/”trained” for so long, is it any wonder they no longer can tell the difference between the real or the fake?
Doesn’t mean that anyone’s innocent, for many perish because they refuse to love the Truth (i.e. seeking it and obeying it) and make themselves available for the Lie, just as it’ll be in the last days when the Anti Christ will come to “train” folks with signs/miracles …..Things that were meant to turn people to God (II Thessalonians 2:9-12)
But, honestly, how obvious is the connection?
By the way, as you can probably tell, this is a SENSITIVE subject for me……
I can relate to the people in the audience, especially working as a Youth Worker and seeing the stuff on the clip happen in the lives of far too many others to count (myself included……You don’t grow up in the Charismatic church without having to experience it once, though thankfully my Church was amazingly grounded in the Word first and not the Experience……..
It took me awhile to catch on to things, so I tend to be a bit gracious to people in these circumstances…..many of them truly are “trapped” where they’re at, which is why we have to be gracious whenever approaching them……Yes, Praise God that they can come out, but man does it take a lot of prayer, patience and WHOLE lot of grace….. (II Timothy 2:23-26)
“2 Timothy 4:1-2
1In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage–with great patience and careful instruction.
While I agree with you G, I cannot say that it the case with everyone.
My initial conversion came at a Schambach meeting (http://www.schambach.org)
-While he was speaking at Bethany World Prayer Center - Baton Rounge, LA.-
I can say that though I do not remeber the substance of the entire message, the call produced a genuine repentance on my behalf.
Many individuals whom are witnessing K. Franklin concerts go in fact to be entertained, and with the understanding that they are going to hear good music and not a call to repentance.
That (repentance) will not make money.
But yet, those who do cry out…I sincerely believe that God has a remnant with whom he reveals matters to (like I started to see myself) at some point.
But yet, I belive that man, many are revealed truths about certain individuals (whether it be rock starts or even pastors) and refuse to believe it, because their entire foundation is shook.
Case in point. I know of an individual whom attended the City of Refuge (Noel Jones). I attended this church for about 2-3 months during the summer of 2005. Some matters really started to “irk” me about him and how he consistently promoted himself, boasted shamelessly, hosted some of the world’s most reknowned entertainers and celebrities, and often lambasted of his elbow rubbing with some of this highly noted individuals.
I started to look (that is how I ended up here on PP.org) for more open-information with respect to the man’s background and beliefs.
There is someone very close to me whom attended this church as well, and let’s say she knows monumental things about this man, via her niece (whom he has pursued over the last 5-10 years).
Now, she having all of the first-hand evidence necessary to understand what he is about didn’t, she did not run initially. Her eyes peered open, as she started to see the same matters I saw approx 1 year earlier.
Though she saw this….she continued.
Now, all the while her niece informs her of all the parties, boat trips, & the interesting matters the man is consistently involved in as a “spiritual leader”, or a pastor.
Armed with all of this she FINALLY left. She spent about 2 years there (not involved, but just attending). Now this did not last very long, as she has gone back recently and is unashamed of it.
The man is a lie. She saw it, left, could not be enamorated anywhere else, and ran back to it (part-time). Makes me think of Prov 26:11 & how we all are susceptible. Only the Lord can bring her out of that.
That is where the difference is, with those with whom desire to know the truth and walk in it, and other whom do not know the truth, but find out (some) matters of truth…then run back to the lie. (1 John 2:21)
I just believe that God’s Word must be fulfilled, and that as salt on the earth (Matthew 5:13) those whom love Him to continue to eradicate the decay of God’s standard in the earth and truly preserve it.
Excellent point, brah……
Sorry for your friend, but it served to remind me of one of the descriptions of many people in the last days: “Ever Learning but never able to acknowledge the Truth” (II Timothy 3:7).
The verse, as you know, was never opposing study and learning, but rather it was a warning about ineffective learning.
As possible as it is to be a perpetual student and never graduate to putting theory into practice, the same goes for those listening to/discussing the TRUTH but never obeying it (ourselves included)…..You will be deceived/held back!
James 1:22-25
22Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror 24and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it–he will be blessed in what he does.
Sad your friend heard the truth, but never put into action what was studied……
Oh…..and to note, I didn’t mean to imply in my response that everyone was the same…..like your friend shows, to each his own……
Blessings…..
I am certain that he got a lot of “Amen pastor”’s and “You showll did preach Bishop”’s after this service. Sad thing is that many in that congregation were facing and did face difficult situations in their lives for which that message did absolutely nothing. Talk about feet planted firmly in thin air. Sadly, I know personally more preachers like this than I do sound biblical expositors. Thank God for Pastor John E. Coleman.
Yes G. You are correct on that one. Good Analogy.
That really is something to point out to others. The salivating…without substance.
Appreciate the thoughts, Grid…..it’s had me thinking a lot too…….
Proverbs 15:13
A happy heart makes the face cheerful, but heartache crushes the spirit.
Proverbs 15:30
A cheerful look brings joy to the heart, and good news gives health to the bones.
Just like with saliva needed to break/digest food down, how important is the role/importance of enthusiasm is in church……So often, people will expound on a sermon and simply expect their audience to receive it and fail to realize the difficulty of doing so when their spirits may be too crushed with things/pressures to bear any thing else…….
They fail to see how enthusiasm can help prepare the way…….How like pain-medicine, enthusiasm (i.e. greeting with welcome, or giving a word of encouragement, or maintaining a positive outlook on life, getting excited, etc) is needed to help heal/medicate (Proverbs 16:24, Proverbs 17:30), making people ready to receive the Truth………
But sadly, there’s been so much damage because it’s been taken so far out of context that when people hear the word “Enthusiasm”, they have a bad taste in their mouths (as it was in the video clip) and never realize how biblical the concept really is.
But that’s just me
(Grid: “If this were as real (i.e.Trained Reflexes/Externalities affecting one’s natural responses) as many say it is…..then deliverance would come. TRUE deliverance from gimmicks, cliches, and Christian “Buzz-Words”.)
Question: Can a True Christian be “trained”/influenced to do something because of externalities (good or bad), and if so, To what degree does externalities affect the overall attitudes of a Christian?
And what does the Word say about the role of externalites (i.e. Christian terminology, whether or not one should seek to “manipulate” church environment, from the “cliches” we use down to developing Church Programs/when things’ll take place in service and even choosing the Worship songs we sing, in order to prepare the audience and get them to a certain point, etc)?
Love to hear feedback……
Martin Luther said, “Next to the Word of God, music deserves the highest praise. The gift of language combined with the gift of song was given to man that he should proclaim the Word of God through music.”
Music is mentioned in the Bible 839 times. King David set priests and Levites in the tabernacle for the sole purpose of ministering with music. He had “round-the-clock” worship, making people aware that worship was not a once-in-a-while event, but a continual lifestyle.
Scripture tells us to come into His presence with singing:
“Worship the Lord with gladness; come before Him with joyful songs. (Psalm 100:2)
“Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord. (Ephesians 5:19)
Music can usher us into God’s presence, as seen in 2 Kings 3:15. Elisha was addressing the King of Israel when he said: ” ‘But now bring me a harpist.’ While the harpist was playing, the hand of the Lord came upon Elisha….”
While music is a way of ushering in God’s presence, it is not a magic button that can be pushed to make God’s people worship. The Latin word for praise is “value” or “price.” Thus, we praise God to proclaim His worth. “Praise” is our response to His person, but “worship” is our response to His perceived presence.
The point where we start to manipulate the external environment in order to attain a certain level of “worship” (in some circles it renders submission) we allow ourselves to dwell on the externalities as realms of worship in the spirit.
Overall the exernalities have only as much precedence in a service that you allow them (collectively and individually).
How often do you hear…..”The Lord is here!” “Can’t you feel his prescence?”
These type of external emotions predicate themselves upon people whom are being admonished to “look” for a sign of his prescence among them;
Luke 11:29
And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.
The external (searching) experiences are void if one holds to the Lord’s very words. No feeling, gimmick, or game can be placed upon someone with whom is walking upright and knows the Lord…..
Matthew 28:20
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.
He is with us always. This contradicts the notion of his “prescence” being in a certain location during a period of “worship”……or that a feeling or emotion needs to come in order to realize this….he said he is ALWAYS here.
yes, the Lord is always near and he is also always available to us. so why do we need men call names when someone says they hear something from God the Father? Why do people joke about how people worship?
(MN: The Lord being near is not the same as some pimp saying “The Lord is telling me that there are twenty-five people out there who are being healed and who should send in 50 bucks, right now.” That’s bogus and deserves to be made fun of. )
i mean the people who go to church, not the pimps
Control (Though a very subtle and cunning way). Noteriety. Self-Righteousness. Esteem among men.
Question: Though the Lord’s prescense is always with us, are there things around us and done by us that can place Him at distance with us, and thus more vunerable to deception being wrought upon us?
Worship Is not an Incantation.
The Free Dictionary’s Definition
in·can·ta·ti on
n.1. Ritual recitation of verbal charms or spells to produce a magic effect.
2.a. A formula used in ritual recitation; a verbal charm or spell
.b A conventionalized utterance repeated without thought or aptness; a formula: the pious incantations of the administration.
It seems to me that many worship teachers are saying that worship is not ‘just singing.’
It seems to be getting through that worship is not simply singing to God, but a lifestyle of obedience.
We are, however, commanded in scripture to “sing to the lord.”
Part of a lifestyle of worship includes singing to our creator.
Singing is a place where the physical world interweaves with the spiritual. There is something built into us that cries out to sing.
The God of the Bible Sings.
Zephaniah 3:17
The LORD your God is with you,he is mighty to save.
He will take great delight in you,he will quiet you with his love,
he will rejoice over you with singing.”Further Psalm 22:3Yet you are holy,
enthroned on the praises of Israel. As we sing to him,
he sings over us and inhabits our praise.
Singing is important.
But as we sing and as we plan for musical worship it is important that we understand that worship isn’t an incantation. We can not manipulate God into doing anything. He is God and we are not. No matter what songs we sing and no matter how many arms are up in the air God will not be manipulated. Three fast songs and then three slow songs to ‘create an environment’ of worship does not manipulate God into showing up.
If God is always there, then, what are we actually doing?
We are not coming into His presences, in the most technical terms. He is everywhere.
Perhaps it is that when we sing, because it is a physical/spiritual exercises, we become aware of Gods presence. We become aware that God wants to speak with us and be with us and desires our relationship to deepen.
Often we unintentionally view our singing/worship as incantations; that if we sing the right songs than God will “show up. ”
If believers are the only ones who can worship (spirit and truth) than we sing out of relationship, faith, love and even obedience.
Scripture teaches that God is everywhere; nobody can hide from him (Psm. 139:7-18). But his presence is more than that. It includes God’s commitment to us.
The “I AM” (Ex. 3:14) says “I will be with you” (3:12). The Lord promises to be with Israel as he delivers them from slavery. So he takes a people to be his own: “I will be your God, and you shall be my people” (see Gen. 17:7, Lev. 26:12, 2 Cor. 6:16, Rev. 21:3-4). They become his family. Sometimes singles out his own people for special judgments (Amos 3:2); but the Lord’s main purpose is to bless his people– beyond anything they can imagine.
The chief blessing is the Lord’s own presence. He was with Israel in the tabernacle and in the fiery cloud that led them through the wilderness. After they sinned, the Lord offered to let them go to the promised land without him. Moses protested, “if your presence does not go with us, do not send us up from here” (Ex. 33:2, 15). God relented and went with them. Canaan, with all its milk and honey, would have been worthless without the Lord himself.
All this is fulfilled in Jesus. He is “God with us,” “Immanuel” (Isa. 7:14, Matt. 1:23). He is God’s tabernacle with his people (in John 1:14, “dwelled” means “tabernacled”). When Jesus died, God did not leave us; rather, he was with us in the most profound way: bearing our sins, bringing us perfect forgiveness. So if you know Jesus as your Savior and Lord, God is with you always, to the very end of the world (Matt. 28:20).
Concerning the notion of His presence being in a certain location, what to make of what the Word describes as the Manifest presence of God?
The Holy Spirit is always present with us, because as God, He is omnipresent. He is especially present with us as believers, because Jesus having gone to the Father has sent us the Comforter, the Holy Spirit.
However, we see in Scripture a third way in which the Spirit is present. The Bible talks about the “manifest presence” of the Holy Spirit….and I believe that the experience of the early church is to be our experience. Jesus promised that His disciple would be witnesses “when the Holy Spirit” comes upon you.
Many people get hung up on the Primary Pentecostal experience of Acts 2 and look to that experience as being normative. However if you look at the Book of Acts you will find that the Holy Spirit fell on the same group of disciples on several occasions and each time there were different manifestations of the Spirit’s presence. What was common was this . . . when the Holy Spirit showed up with power, the people knew it because there where signs of his presence in time and space. The disciples were filled with power for the proclamation of the gospel and radical Christian living (Acts 1:23-31, for example).
Note: Bible Reference was meant to be Acts 4:23-31
Food for thought, here’s a few more Biblical examples of the “manifest presence” of God:
Ex. 34:30(f.) — Moses’ face supernaturally shines
Lev. 9:24; 1 Kg. 18:38; 1 Chr. 21:26 — Fire from heaven consumes sacrifices
1 Sam. 19:18-24 — King Saul and his antagonistic men are overcome by the Holy Spirit and prophesy as they near the camp of the prophets
1 Kg. 8:10,11 — The priest couldn’t stand because of Gods glory
Dan. 8:17; 7-10, 15-19 — Daniel fell, had no strength, terrified by Gods presence
Jn.18:6 — Unbelieving guards thrown to the ground
Acts 9:4 — Saul of Tarsus saw brilliant light, thrown from his horse, heard Jesus audibly, was temporarily struck blind
Acts 10:10, 21:1 — Peter and Paul fall into trances and see and hear into the spirit world
Jn.18:6 — Unbelieving guards thrown to the ground
Acts 9:4 — Saul of Tarsus saw brilliant light, thrown from his horse, heard Jesus audibly, was temporarily struck blind
Rev. 1:17 — John fell as dead, had no bodily strength, and saw and heard into the spirit world
Rev. 1:17 — John fell as dead, had no bodily strength, and saw and heard into the spirit world
Jonathan Edwards referred to five tests to determine if a manifestation is a true work of the Holy Spirit. He states that Satan cannot and would not, if he could, generate these kinds of things in people.
If we can answer “yes” to one or more of these questions, then it is to be regarded as genuine despite any “little objections, as many (people) make from oddities, irregularities, errors in conduct, and the delusions and scandals of some professors (people who claim to be believers)” (i.e. some “human mixture” does not invalidate a general work of true revival, in fact, some should be expected).
1.Does it bring honor to the person of Jesus Christ?
2.Does it produce a greater hatred of sin and a greater love for righteousness?
3.Does it produce a greater regard for Scripture?
4.Does it lead people into truth?
5.Does it produce a greater love for God and man?
G, (Although long) the content of posts such as this are good. Much more authoritative and direct.
(MN: That’s all I ever ask from a regular contributor. Although I still think the Bible quotes border on over-kill. )
Jonathan Edwards, regarded to be one of the greatest theologians of history, lived during the time of the Great Awakening in America in the 1730’s and 1740’s. Edwards provides the most thoughtful and comprehensive biblical evaluations, reflections and writings about the manifestations of the Spirit. (Taken from A Narrative of Surprising Conversations and the Great Awakening, Vol 4 of The Works Of Edwards)
“It was very wonderful to see how person’s affections were sometimes moved — when God did as it were suddenly open their eyes, and let into their minds a sense of the greatness of his grace, the fullness of Christ, and his readiness to save…Their joyful surprise has caused their hearts as it were to leap, so that they have been ready to break forth into laughter, tears often at the same time issuing like a flood, and intermingling a loud weeping. Sometimes they have not ben able to forbear crying out with a loud voice, expressing their great admiration” (Narrative pp. 37-38)
“…some persons having had such longing desires after Christ or which have risen to such degree, as to take away their natural strength. Some have been so overcome with a sense of the dying love of Christ to such poor, wretched, and unworthy creatures, as to weaken the body. Several persons have had so great a sense of the glory of God, and excellency of Christ, that nature and life seemed almost to sink under it; and in all probability, if God had showed them a little more of himself, it would have dissolved their frame… And they have talked, when able to speak of the glory of Gods perfections” (Narrative p. 45)
“It was a very frequent thing to see an house full of outcries, faintings, convulsions and such like, both with distress, and also with admiration and joy.” (The Great Awakening p. 547)
“many in their religious affections being raised far beyond what they ever had been before; and there were some instances of persons lying in a sort of trance, remaining for perhaps a whole twenty-four hours motionless, and with their senses locked up; but in the meantime under strong imagination, as though they went to heaven, and had there a vision of glorious and delightful objects.” (The Great Awakening p. 550)
Yeah, but no one was working them up to get them to do this stuff, they had a genuine affection for God based on his word, and what he did at calvary.
Today’s christian has an affection with christ based on Houses, cars, and money. And then we go into church and tell them to say thank you jesus a thousand times in a row real fast until you start stammering, and we call that general affection for God. If God were to shut up heaven, and do no more blessing, how many would continue to follow based on calvary alone, that’s the question.
binks
Great question Binks……….and really to the point of why this site is here.
It’s NOT about Calvary for the Pimps (heck, most of them think the Atonement didn’t even HAPPEN there).
And, it’s unlikely it’s any more about Calvary for the sheeple who follow the Pimps.
I wonder how many of us would follow if we didn’t live HERE……….if we lived in China, or Iran, or Somalia. A sobering question, and one that shouldn’t be quickly dismissed.
Lord, I pray you make me faithful even unto death………
He was the former presiding prelate for PAW so he is a oneness pentecostal.I guess that explains why he and Charles Ellis have similar preaching styles. My question is why a denomination started by GT Haywood and used to preach Jesus name baptisms and hell fire for us trinitarians is so ecumenical now. I mean Horace Smith was promoting Baptists in his church a few weeks ago. I still can’t believe the National Baptist Association has William Bonner speak at their convention.As a matter of fact I can’t believe he accepted since he is supposed to be hardcore oneness.
Appreciate the compliments/encouragements, Mr. Grid (finally, we have succeeded in Part 1 of the plan)………
By the way, meant to let you way earlier that I feel where you’re coming from, Brah, when you said “No feeling, gimmick, or game can be placed upon someone with who is walking upright and knows the Lord…..”
Catch phrases/emotions aren’t wrong in themselves, but Those who truly hold to the Lord’s (not man’s) Words will never have to RELY on an emotion/catch phrase to be connected with the Lord (and run the risk of being snowed by false prophets who use them)……
If someone’s trying to play on their desires to be prepared for meeting the Lord, God’s Word/Spirit will warn them if they’re open to the TRUTH (not simply learning but practicing it as well…..II Timothy 3:7), and in these times where it’s EXTREMELY HARD to TELL the REAL from The FAKE (Acts 20:29, I Timothy 3:1-5, II Peter 2:1-3, II John 1:7, etc) He’s more than able “to keep us:
Jude 1:24-27
24To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy– 25to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.
Good insight, Brah…….
(Grid: “How often do you hear ‘The Lord is here!’ ‘Can’t you feel his presence?’”)
These type of external emotions predicate themselves upon people whom are being admonished to “look” for a sign of his presence among them”)
Matthew 12:38-45
As it was for the Pharisees, asking for miraculous signs but never sincerely seeking to know Jesus or make the most of the miraculous proof they Already saw to show the Messiah in their presence, looking for signs/wonders ALONE as preparation to live for Him or validation of God’s presence is meaningless if one refuses to modify their behavior and making the most out of all the other “Signals” for Glorifying Christ (i.e. The Living Word, His birth, death, and resurrection, centuries of work in believers around the World)…..
Moreover, one will remain susceptible to deception/in bondage if their only signal for living unto Christ is “Bless God! Amen! Jesus! The Presence of the Lord is here….”
Sin will always fill the void left when God’s Truth no longer fills our lives first…….and though they can confirm things, no amount of signs/wonders will KEEP/SAVE a person looking for them or who settles for ridding oneself of bad practices but never replacing them with good ones, such as love for God, Digesting/Obeying the Word and submitting to the control/refilling of His Spirit (Ephesians 5:18).
Rely on that, and you’ll leave PLENTY of room for Satan to enter/manipulate one’s life…….and begin “Training” (dominating) as much as possible (Matthew 12:43-45).
But you’d be hard-pressed to fully “train”/wreck the Christian who Has Jesus as the LORD, standing at the door of one’s Heart to meet the Devil when He come’s calling……….
Cross over yall http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_6BRRykxmY&mode=related&search=
(MN: And after you finish jumping around, get out there and impact the society around you. )
Major Pimpology, I wonder why they never crossed over to their Salvation. It’s funny how the same music is played all throughout the church in which the people shout off of. I used to be in a pentecostal church, and I used to play the Hammond B3 organ, and we would play the same music and people would dance all over the church. It’s funny, because it’s sociopsychological manipulation, where people are worked into altered states of consciouness, and anything you tell them they will do.
seen it a million times before. Used to do it for over 10 years, before God rescued me from the charismatic church.
binks
(Note: Minus this disclaimer, the post was 198 words….below your 200 Word restriction…and it seemed to deal with the discussion. Curious, is there a particular reason why it hasn’t been posted yet, Sir? ….)
(MN: Yes there is. You are simply ruminating. And you used almost one hundred words to do it. Plus, I am not interested in having a posting that is a list of links to YouTube or anywhere else. Just say what you have to say in response to what someone else has said, or in response to the posting itself. This posting was netiher of those.
Stop asking people what they think. Stop telling people you would be interested in discussing this or that, or getting their view of this or that. Say what YOU have to say and be done with it. Believe me, if someone want to discuss it, they will. If they are not interested, it will die a merciful death. STOP TRYING TO GENERATE DISCUSSION. That is my job. I know what I