From what you wrote, it’s sad to see all of what happens when people twist the things of God out of their original context……practicing tithing was never meant to be something akin to promoting a “Protection Racket”, where people are either threatened, manipulated or harassed unjustly to support those institutions/things not of God…..and, for that matter, all in the Name of God!

Prayerfully, those abusing the practice of tithing for selfish gain will stop so the practice of tithing will cease to have a bad reputation.

Hopefully, they’ll stop so that no further stumbling blocks (whether it be in causing people to give out of wrong motives or hardens people to withhold for the wrong) in the lives of others will be repeated, lest they be in trouble with the One they claim to serve…….

Luke 17:1-2

Sin, Faith, Duty
1Jesus said to his disciples: “Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come. 2It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin.

Blessings, brah……

To find them, go here:

http://www.letusreason.org/Doct54.htm

http://www.letusreason.org/Wf34.htm

I thought that this was an excellent piece of work, addressing many facets of the “TITHING” issue smoothly and graciously. It blessed me a lot, and I think that everyone who checks them out will learn something from it/be blessed too, should they investigate further…..

If nothing else, it’ll serve to add more insight/truth on the situation for everybody……and keep us all from avoiding the trap of having “zeal without knowledge” (Proverbs 19:2). If ya’ll wish, comment on what you read. I’d love to hear sometime…….

Whatever ya’ll decide to do, Blessings….

Proverbs 18:15

15 The heart of the discerning acquires knowledge;
The ears of the wise seek it out.

Proverbs 24:5

5 A wise man has great power,
And a man of knowledge increases strength;

Okay………concerning the question I asked earlier about the differing aspects (i.e. categories) of the Law, it seems that I’m going to have to leave a bit of a bread crumb trail to follow so that we’ll all be on the same page and’ll make it to the same destination.

So, before responding to the question, please visit this link:

http://www.biblestudylessons.com/cgi-bin/gospel_way/old_law_today_1.php

Again, would you please mind examining/reading ALL of the information on this page FIRST before choosing to respond? Unless you do that first, please don’t respond with another post.

I believe that the question I asked will make more sense if you should choose to do so in the order I suggested…..and I’d love to dialogue/hear your thoughts on the information you find there when you’re finished.

Looking forward to hearing from ya (and for that matter, anyone else interested in answering, be it TOG, Kyle, A-Dub, Beryle, and even Mr. Melvin himself)………

Blessings

no prob’. But the wife won’t let it go. You know “Antoine” is associated with the more feminine brothers, so I now I have new nickname.

Also, nice seeing how your question seemed to address the question of “Should a Christian be willing to tithe”,

So often many become so focused on what’s legal/required or what they’re exempt from that they end up using it as an opportunity for selfishness and the flesh (ex. Saying that they’re not required to give a percentage and often using money wastefully for self, claiming “It’s My Money” rather than realizing it’s God’s and given with the purpose of using it wisely/lovingly for others)

And while others often claim to not tithe for noble purposes, like taking care of their families and the poor man they see or giving graciously as one purposes in their heart, like II Corinthians 8:12-13 and II Corinthians 9:7-9 advocates, in truth far too many do so for every reason besides that……..I use to be one of them.

And God’s Word makes explicitly clear that Christian freedom is not the removal of moral restraints/call for sacrificial service…..it is the freedom to serve one another.

Galatians 5:10-14

13You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature[a]; rather, serve one another in love. 14The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[b]

The Gospel exchanges the bondage of legalism for the Higher bondage of LOVE…….Something that we were never freed from (which is why practicing tithing can be a valid practice if you’re doing it out of love for another rather than to simply meet a quota…..Regular giving can do this as well, but tithing can also, especially seeing how it can practically help support ministers/ministry):

Again, appreciate your comments…….

It appears that you are inquiring of (anyone at least) as to what aspect of the law is passed away. If there is understanding that it isn’t why inquire? The answer to the question is (NONE) of it.

Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

The “tittle” represents the minute point or stroke added to some letters of the Hebrew alphabet to distinguish them from others which they resemble; hence, the very least point.

The jot - (or where we get our word Iota), the smallest letter of the Greek alphabet, used metaphorically or proverbially for the smallest thing ( Matt 5:18); or it may be = yod, which is the smallest of the Hebrew letters.

Heaven & Earth would pass away before either of these insignificant portions would.

To make sure we’re on the same page, though, what EXACTLY did you feel I’m missing or trying to convey in my questions/comments? What’s the general impression you’re getting from my statements?

Moreover, where did you see anywhere that I declared the WHOLE Law (principle/SPIRIT included) was crucified? I believe that I was inquiring what ASPECT of it (category of it included) was crucified/nailed to the Cross (Colossians 2:14)…..and never declared outright (as in “I believe that….”) that the entire Law of GOD was invalid (10 commandments for example)…..

Also, did you focus on/read the ENTIRE question? Where do we properly draw the line at interpreting what Christ said prior to His death as Old Covenant/ apparently not applicable (as many do with tithing) and New Covenant?

Blessings……

Antoine Mason!? Nope, sorry. I have posted under my real name “Sid”/ “Sidney” though. This was about six months ago.

That is NOT true. The “nature” of the law is what is fulfilled and alive (Jesus Christ). The Letter was crucified.

Mark 2:21-22
21) No man also seweth a piece of new cloth on an old garment: else the new piece that filled it up taketh away from the old, and the rent is made worse.
22) And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.

Jesus is making a reference to not destroying that which was done before him. The “rent” being made worse, is reference to the division that currently exists from the written law and man’s exile from God, as the old (written) does not suffice, so new (Jesus) is needed. Jesus is making clear that this is not why he came….to cause division over the law, but to fulfill it. (Matthew 5:17)

The deep root of the word “cloth”, comes from;
Hebrew word -. “bad”; rendered “linen” Exodus 28:42; 39:28; Lev 6:10; 16:4, 23, 32; 1 Samuel 2:18; 2 Samuel 6:14, etc. It is uniformly used of the sacred vestments worn by the priests. The word is from a root signifying “separation.”

So in Mark 2:21, Jesus is establishing that he did not come to separate according to God’s law, notice the reference indicates a cloth from a priestly garment as well.

In Jewish feasts, “new wine” was partaken as better, and that it could not possibly be contained in old wineskins. New wines, by fermenting, would rend (divide/tear) old skins (cp. Jos 9:13; Job 32:19). Jesus is stating that the new, could not exist withing the constraints of the old.

Matthew sums the matter up in stating that the law is not abolished:

Matthew 9:17
Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

BOTH are preserved. So the law is not done away. It is fulfilled and alive.

Search the NT. Anytime you see the word “written” it is referring to what you see on paper and are expected to be obedient to (the letter governing external behavior).

2 Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

When the word “spirit” is mentioned contrary to the letter, it is in reference to the manifestation and fulfillment of God’s law (written interpretation).

The written law (as in external obedience) could not save us because our hearts were corrupt. The letter was being pushed on the external attributes, but not what God originally intended (a heart experience) which leads to proper external behavior.

This is what Jesus displayed. The difference betweeen letter, and the spirit differing than the written interpretation:

Luke 6:7-11
7) And the scribes and Pharisees watched him, whether he would heal on the sabbath day; that they might find an accusation against him.

But he knew their thoughts, and said to the man which had the withered hand, Rise up, and stand forth in the midst. And he arose and stood forth.

9) Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy [it]?

10) And looking round about upon them all, he said unto the man, Stretch forth thy hand. And he did so: and his hand was restored whole as the other.

11) And they were filled with madness; and communed one with another what they might do to Jesus.

These individuals were given the opportunity to see (if that is what they really desired from the spirit behind why the law of God was given).

Mark 2:23-27
23) And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn.

24) And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?

25) And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him?

26) How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?

27) And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Many Pharissees and scribes debated about the rudiments of the law. One of these was (what) constituted “work”. The summation of their finaglings, they determined that anything above a 1/2 fig being lifted was constituted “work”. That is why in these scriptures they are apparently zealous concerning upholding the law, but they really did not desire for mans benefit of the sabbath, the external rules (written) were more important.

This is the direction of written law and the difference with regard to the spirit in illustration of the fulfullment of the law. (v27) illustrates the origination of the law, and who it is beneficial for (us) as it is alive and active IN Christ Jesus.

Peace

Good Post.

My bad for that one too…..I was just writing to adress Mr.Lawrence’s statements on the meaning of words “expect” and “command” and how they can mean different……I wanted to clarify so it wouldn’t seem as if I was using words incorrectly, and I didn’t want it to come off as if I was saying something I didn’t intend to say. That’s all.

My bad…..To clarify what I meant was the issue of going out and actively serving the poor, as in on your own and by your own iniative. (i.e.going to the soup kitchen, starting a food pantry, beginning a homeless fund/thrift store, ect). I didn’t mean the mandatory percent the the government takes to fund other Social Welfare policies (Lord help us if I, a Human Services major, did otherwise!!!)….

(TOG: some tithe supporters insist that we are required to tithe, yet believe that we are no longer under the law because of Christ. Well since tithing is under the “Law”, then that (to me) is where the confusion and contradiction comes.)

Gotta love this dialouge, and I’ve learned quite a bit from it. GOTTA ASK THOUGH, I’ve noticed that one of the main answers given throughout this dialouge against tithing is that Jesus was speaking under the old covenat when He said we should practice it.

I’m curious as to what people may think about where to draw to line as in intepretting what Jesus was saying regardding the OC and and the NEW, or whether EVERYTHING He said prior to His death is OLd covenant and therefore should go out the window……because it’d seem that one would have to define clearly where the line is at before any more clarity can proceed further.

Also, regarding TOG’s comment, what aspect of the law do you think was crucifed on the cross? Was it every aspect (minus principle)? Every category of it (civil, ceremonial, moral (10 commandmens, and the obligation to have to pay the penalty of sin by our own efforts)?

Are there no longer any things from the OT that we’re obligated to do, and is the NT about what we’re inclined/LED to do solely?

Blessings…….

(Bro Lawerence: “Now would someone please get brother G2 a thesaurus so he can see the similarities between “expected” and “commanded”. )

Actually,to clarify, “Expected” and “Commanded” can be very different depending on the situation/context.

According to Merriam’s Webster’s Theasarus, “expect” means “to anticipate in the mind” and is synomous with “await, count (on or upon”), HOPE….”, whereas “command” means “to issue an order and is synomous with “charge, direct, instruct”…..and “command” also means “a direction that should/must be obeyed”…..

Concerning “Expect”, my focus wasn’t on where it was synomous with “count” (which is where your “Taxes” analogy would seem to fit more with…..much the same as a teacher saying to her students “I EXPECT good behavior in this class” and how that’s synomous with a command)…..I, however, was writing from the “hope” aspect of the word.

That’s what I meant when I said that one would expect (hope) for Christians to practice tithing (giving a set percentage of their income), even though we’re not OBLIGATED to (i.e.Doing so just because it’s the LAW, even when we have no desire/heart to so…….

There’s no law in our government saying we’re COMMANDED to pay for the poor/serve them (as in “SERVE OR ELSE!!!) (MN: So you don’t pay taxes to support welfare, Medicare, Medicaid, property taxes (to pay for schools, health clinics), etc. I think the IRS needs to know about you. And the government does say “Pay your taxes or else! ), but seeing that they’re as much apart of society as those who have much, that it’d be proper, and that one would want others to treat them the same as wish to be treated, one would “EXPECT/HOPE that people would want to do something practical about it/adress the problem……

BLessings…..

I ask this in all love and humility. How can you respond and say that tithing is no longer valid YET defend some of the Pimps that live off of just that? I’m confused man.