While you’re reading this, I want you to remember that this is the man after whom John K. Jenkins has chosen to pattern himself. Oh, and Independent Conservative provides a more in-depth analysis of T. Dexter’s shameless promotion of his book and shameful half-stepping in defense of Jesus Christ.
You may best remember T. Dexter Jakes as the man who said “The word AIDS is not in the Bible.” Or you may just remember him as saying “The word Trinity is not in the Bible.” Well, get ready, get ready, get ready! It could be that the next thing the Potentate of Pomposity is going to discover is that “Jesus is the Only Way” is not in the Bible. (Yeah, it may say there is no other name, etc, etc, et. But it doesn’t say Jesus is the only way.)
Thanks to some sharp eyes (Grid’s) we now know that T. Dexter, while appearing on NPR said:
“When it comes to Heaven, I try to leave that up to God. I certainly believe that Christianity is right, but when it comes down to the final test,who goes and who doesn’t go,Jesus said, Other sheep have I who are not of this fold. Them also must I bring. I’ll let Him identify who those sheep are and I stay out of the conversation.”
Am I the only one who thinks this is such a weasel answer? This answer is just as poor as the one made by Joel “Willow Boy” Osteen when he was cowering before Larry King last year. It’s as disappointing as Billy Graham’s answer in some of his later interviews.
T. Dexter, using his usual linguistic prestidigitation, didn’t answer the question. The question, by the way was:
And also would like to ask you, do you feel that only Christians could hope to enter Heaven?
The simple answer is “Yes. Only those who have accepted Jesus Christ as their savior have the hope of Heaven.” But the Jakester, apparently hesitant to offend someone, takes the limp wrist approach and talks about who will EVENTUALLY end up in heaven. This is a dodge to the question. And it gives the idea that I can die a muslim and expect to make it in without Jesus Christ. Afterall, maybe I’m one of the “other sheep.” It makes it sound as though I can die without Jesus Christ, actively pursuing a false god, and still get in. Yes, he says Jesus is the way but then comes back and says he’s not willing to say that who reject Jesus (supposedly “other sheep”) cannot see the Father.
To hear the exchange, click here, click on the “Listen” button, pick an audio player, and go to about 25:00 into the interview.
Of course, what would it have cost him if he had said something like: “If you die without Christ, you will die in your sins. Unless you accept Jesus Christ as your savior, you have no hope of being with God when you die.”? It would have cost him prestige. I doubt the interfaith gathering of folks would have been interested in having him work with them once he explains, no matter how politely, that without the Jesus of the Bible, they are on the road to hell.
Jakes won’t admit openly to being a Oneness Pentecostal. Now he won’t even clearly and unambiguously admit to believing that there is absolutely only one way to the Father. Or as Jesus said: I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. And no one comes to the Father (Allah, the Great Conciousness, Joseph Smith, ad nauseum not withstanding) except through Me. When pressed about homosexuality, Jakes did - finally - talk about sin and even brought up John 14:6. Then he scurried away again by providing the weasel answer (I don’t know who will eventually go to heaven). It doesn’t take a genius to differentiate between the question of who will end up in heaven and who is the way to heaven. But T. Dexter manages to muddle this one up as well as he does the question of the Trinity.
Admit it! Your boy is more interested in scoring points and making a name for himself than he is in communicating the Gospel. He should be ashamed of himself. And anyone “sitting under” this Mand of Gawd should, as a minimum, ask him what he was thinking when he said this. But what do you think are the odds of something like that happening?
Melvin,
I think you said it best when you described Joel Osteen’s response which was very similar. I agree that if any of these pimps would dare to say that Jesus is the only way that they would lose millions of dollars and countless cult, er uh I mean countless church members. But Melvin I think that your missing the other side of the coin. If your not saved then why would it seem odd that one would deny Christ as the only way? Besides these people think THEY are little gods so why would it seem odd to think that the true living God is the only way. TD, Creflo, Hinn, Crouch, Osteen, Copeland, and the others are all little gods in their own minds. It only seems logical that they would deny Christ.
Kyle
Did you see Joel Osteen’s last interview on Larry King?lol… He actually came out and said that “Jesus was the only way”. I can’t believe I’m about to say this…. but, ya Boy Joel Osteen has more backbone the The Bishop, T.D. Good post Kyle.
(MN: It’s always nice to see someone make good on a second chance. )
Jordan wait, did i miss something? When did this interview take place?
Jordan & Melvin,
True as you say regarding second chances. However, did Joel do this out of conviction of the Holy Ghost or was it the millions of e-mails and phone calls he received after the 1st interview. I think it was the later and Joel may have been trying to save face. I mean when you think about it look at what happened to Stephen. He unabashedly stood up and preached the Gospel in the face of death. He was no millionaire. He didn’t wear the best clothing. He NEVER spoke a word about prosperity or self esteem. He spoke the truth and DIED for it. Think about what I just said. Stephen stood up and proclaimed the truth and was stoned to death. Joel sat down in a comfy chair in front of Larry King proclaimed a false gospel and was sent e-mails the next day to clarify his statements. Stephen went to be with the Lord and Joel went back to his HUGE mansion.
Kyle
AMen Kyle. I was just saying that to someone at our BIble Study tonite.
Bishop is yet my spiritual leader. We are never to compromise the Living Word of God. My uncle is a Muslim, and he sits in my face and say things like, don’t nobody want to her the name Jesus on television or mentioned in the public. He knows that I am a christian and he is aware of my position. I believe in Jesus Christ, that he died and was raised from the dead, and is the Son of God. Romans 10:9-10. I am meek, so I disagreed, and grabbed my purse and left the dinner. His daughter grew up as a muslim, and three Sunday’s ago, I saw she and her husband walk down the to the altar of the Potters House and gave $1000.00 to Clay Academy for the education of our children. When I got up and walk, I said nothing harsh, but I was talking to God on my way out his front door. It that question would have been asked of me from the muslim. I would have grabbed my bible, and read Romans 10:9-10. If she would have required more information, I would invite her to a structured and much needed bible study for relating the bible to Muslims. I am meek, and rather walk in love, in prayer and let God expose and provide greater wisdom where God’s wisdom is needed. We have no time to point fingers, sometimes it is better to pray and ask God to open the eyes and speak to the heart of this person, that may have compromised or applied an incorrect response or answer.
most of your comments and analysis are out of order
Can you be more specific Kwabena?? What comments are out of order?? What analysis is out of order. What do you mean by out of order??
Pluck the plank out of your own eye before you take the speck out of some one elses. Basically stop watching people and there business and deal with the stuff in your life. Does it boost up your own ego to mess with some elses character. The bible does say Jesus is the ONLY way, to God. Read it for yourself. This is sad, listeniing to you guys on here ranting off negatively about someone you don’t know personally. It is true all that glitter is not gold, and you must understand that Pastor T. D Jakes is a man, a human being. None of us are perfect and we all make mistakes, but just know that it is he who has to give an account to God on judgement day for every word that he speaks out of his mouth. None of know how God sees him, as none of us are God, Please concerntate on your relationship with Jesus, so that he can guide you, and lead you to the thruth . I have found Jesus to be true, and I know the he is the way the thruth and the life. And if you don’t belive that I urge you to pray and be open, and ask for the real God to “please stand up”. I know that it is Jesus and if you are open and serious, you will definitely find him. He said seek and you will find me. So do all that you need to do to seek. These are the end times & Christ is going to retun soon.Youwill have to be accountable to him. So prepare yourself. Instaed of wasting your time judging some one else. God Bless you!
Alicia,
Actually you are correct about the end times. Unfortunately there would be an increase in false teachers during the end times as well as people with itchy ears not wanting to listen to sound doctrine. Hmmmm! I wonder who they cold be talking about? Creflo, Jakes, Copeland, Meyers, Bynum, White, etc…………
Kyle
u all sould leave GOd preachers a lone
Good idea Anonymous………fortunately,none of God’s preachers are featured in the posts.
Here we go again!!!
Alicia, I’ll be glad to send you a Bible, as you clearly either don’t own one or have never cracked the spine on it.
We are COMMANDED to judge false doctrine.
We are COMMANDED to publicly rebuke those in leadership who sin in public.
We are COMMANDED to restrict authority in the church to men.
Good grief……….you’re clueless.
here is a part of the transcript that grabbed my attention.
“CALLER: I’m a Muslim here in Portland. I’m part of a Shiite community. And we had a wonderful interface dialogue last weekend with a local Unitarian church. And I’d like to ask you please to speak about concrete experiences you’ve had as far as interfaith dialogue goes. And also would like to ask you, do you feel that only Christians could hope to enter Heaven?
JAKES: Very great question. When it comes to interfaith experiences, I’m currently serving by the appointment of former President Bush and President Clinton, as co-chair of an interfaith advisory committee to help people get back up on their feet.
And we do have on the board Muslims, Catholics, a Jewish Rabbi, Baptists, Methodists, Pentecostals across the board. And we’re working together very effectively because we all care about common goals. We have our distinct theologies and our own ideologies but there are common grounds that we can work together very effectively in many, many cases.”
My question is what common ground is there if you believe in Christ but they don’t? I suppose he will have to comprimise his stance so he can maintain his “co-chairman” status with Mr. FORMER PRESIDENTS BUSH and CLINTON.
This garbage sickens me, because there will be those that will continue to support him and tell others not to judge. Well at this point, we don’t have to dig for any thing, he is very comfortable in his hypocracy. Now what!!?
I agree. I figured most of you would see that once you listened to the interview. That’s the wonderful thing about the internet: We get to hear these clowns in their own words. If nothing else, we can get them to spend time defending their idiotic statements and actions, thus giving them less time to spread their ear tickling foolishness. But alas, there will always be people who defend them, like the commenter who is offended that I would tell someone that they need Jesus Christ.
Are you kidding me? You couldn’t be missing the point more. Jesus’ message was not to go around telling people they are going to Hell because they’re wrong in their beliefs. That would be the message of condemnation that has nothing to do with His message of love. (MN: John 3:18 - and Jesus said: He who believes in Him is not judged (condmened); he who does not believe HAS ALREADY BEEN JUDGED (condemned). These are Jesus’ own words. Check it out, they’re in red in that Bible you skip around in. )
It’s the easiest thing to judge; yet i wonder if you could say straight to that Muslim woman that she is wrong and going to Hell. (MN: IF she refuses to excercise faith in Jesus Christ, then yes, she will be separated from God throughout eternity. I’m still not seeing what’s so hard about this. ) And even if you had enough audacity to say that to her, that certainly wouldn’t change her view on Christianity.
The sad thing about this site is whenever somebody shows up and reminds that we are (not?) supposed to judge nobody and love our enemies, it doesn’t even make sense. Did Jesus give these two commandments in vain? The truth is that by judgement you’re breaking the commandment to love (as ALL the commandments hang on this one). That’s why it’s impossible to love and judge a person at the same time. And your failure in keeping this commandment certainly does not make you any better than followers of any other religion. Because, according to the Bible, christians are not just those who believe the Word of God, but those who DO His Will. Your usual excuse ”Jesus judged people” amazes me. While Jesus as God can judge people, what makes you think you can? (MN: The Bible. You know, the thick book with the black and red lettering, golding side, usually a black cover that says that we are to judge righteous judgment. )
(MN: Anyone else care to address the rest of this? DoubleG, if you do, you may only use 200 words. )
How can you say its impossible to love and judge at the same time? If you truly believe that someone is headed toward eternal damnation, don’t you think that it is an act of love to warn that person of the impending disaster?
TO Kumbaff: You answered the same nonsensical statement made by “Judge Not” that caught my eye. The best example is parenthood. I love my children with my life, but each one has certain character traits that can be detrimental to their relationship with God. I frequently have to judge myself for exercising character traits that are not pleasing to God. I judge my children and they judge me—all the time WITH RIGHTEOUS JUDGEMENT!!! At the same time, we love one another dearly, the way Jesus commanded. Remember, the Bible says that judgment MUST begin at the house of God, Whose house we are!
And how much did HE love us? So much that He sent His only begotten Son…. He loved us so much that WHILE WE WERE YET SINNERS (judgment), Jesus died for us! This is righteous judgment AND exceeding great love at the same time, “Judge Not”!
Judge not, first of all you are correct that under the New Covenant we are now bound by those two general laws, to Love God and Love your neighbor. But tell me this, isn’t the love for God directly linked to hate for sin and wickedness? If this is not the case then I suppose Christ was wrong for his statements towards the Pharisees.
Matthew 23: 27-33
27 “What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs–beautiful on the outside but filled on the inside with dead people’s bones and all sorts of impurity.
28 Outwardly you look like righteous people, but inwardly your hearts are filled with hypocrisy and lawlessness.
29 “What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you build tombs for the prophets your ancestors killed, and you decorate the monuments of the godly people your ancestors destroyed.
30 Then you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would never have joined them in killing the prophets.’
31 “But in saying that, you testify against yourselves that you are indeed the descendants of those who murdered the prophets.
32 Go ahead and finish what your ancestors started. 33 Snakes! Sons of vipers! How will you escape the judgment of hell?
Ok, “Hypocrites”, “Snakes”, “white-washed tombs”, “Sons of hell”…Yeah sounds like God is very tolerant of sin doen’t it?
Once again, by no way am I saying that God is not Merciful and Gracious in his nature. But part of his Love is hate towards sin. So don’t be suprised by such language. The problem is that these preachers have spoiled our people by not conveying the entire counel of God, so people like your self will assume that since God is LOVING, that he is passive towards sin.
“It’s the easiest thing to judge; yet i wonder if you could say straight to that Muslim woman that she is wrong and going to Hell. (MN: IF she refuses to excercise faith in Jesus Christ, then yes, she will be separated from God throughout eternity. I’m still not seeing what’s so hard about this. ) And even if you had enough audacity to say that to her, that certainly wouldn’t change her view on Christianity.”
Judge not,
If i am a supposed minister of the Gospel yet the message of ‘repentance from wickedness and sin’ is not the center-piece of my message, then am i really a minister of the Gospel. Tell me, what am i actually telling the lost? How can someone feel convicted of their sin if the sin of unbelief is not preached about. How is anyone delivered from sin? I thought faith comes from hearing of the word?
What you are saying deviates so far from the scriptures, then i’m surprised that you are so bold to make such a claim with out obviously reading the text for your self.
Dear Judge not,
How do you justify your idiotic statements? The last time I checked Christ did not come here to make people feel good about themselves. Oh! I’m sorry that’s what Joel Osteen thinks. But anyway, what is our purpose if it is not to bring the “TRUE” message to the world? Don’t you understand that YOU will be held accountable for your statements. TD like Osteen just had the opportunity for MILLIONS to hear this interview. This was a chance for them to hear the salvation message yet all they got was the interfaith/ecumenical lie. I can’t believe so many people are part of the Laodicean Church.
Kyle
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. 2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (KJV)
Jesus did away with the Ten Commandments and he introduced the new law, the law of love. When you walk in love you are not going to steal from your neighbor. When you walk in love you are not going to bear false witness against your neighbor. When you walk in love you are not coveting what your neighbor has.
We see in the gospels that Jesus himself was standing in front of the religious leaders of the day, and their hearts were hardened. They could not even see the glory standing in front of them. And that is still true today. Some still have not recognized that Jesus is the Messiah . They are still looking for the Messiah, but He has already come; and He is going to come back again. That is why we pray for them in this regard, that when their hearts shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away. And it will be done by the Spirit of the Lord.
Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom. There is an unveiling from the letter of the law. There is the removing of the veil only to see grace and freedom, through Jesus.
Now the Word says that we are free. But we are not to allow our freedom to be used as an “opportunity or excuse for selfishness, but through love you should serve one another” (Gal. 5:13 AMP). In that case, it is inappropriate to say, “Well I am free, so I can just say anything I want.” You unnecessarily offend others that way. Contrarily, we must allow love to direct our actions and our words to the end that those who observe our lifestyle would be led to receive the Messiah.
“Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty (emancipation from bondage, freedom).” (AMP)
The action that causes us to put on God’s dignity and to become all that He is, is looking into the Word. The Word says that we are changed. “Change” means to be transformed. In other words, there is a constant changing. The more you look into the mirror of the Word, the more you will think different, talk different, and act different. The more you get into the Word, the more you look just like Jesus in the earth, and the more His love will flow through you.
We have a ministry of bringing the unveiling light to others through the love of God, so that they, too, can be transformed into God’s image.
Scripture References: Romans 12:2; John 13:34
Anonymous,
What you say is true, however the statements by these men are outrageous. And the last time I checked Pharisees were being called a brood of vipers. Also, the last time I checked Jesus used a bull whip in the temple to clear out all the evil money changers. He even tossed a couple of the tables around. So much for the weak Jesus we have all come to know in the Laodicean age. There has to be a balance otherwise you wind up with a sickly Church like you have to today because of the warm and fuzzy Jesus people like to espouse.
Kyle
i understand
Jesus did away with the Ten Commandments and he “introduced the new law, the law of love.”
This statement is false. Jesus said in Matt 5:17
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. KJV We can not just repeat what we hear people from the pulpit saying and just repeat it. We must read God’s word. In reading His word, you will notice that you can not have God’s love without you or someone else experiencing God’s wrath. Jesus received His Wrath so we may receive His love. You can not separate the 2. Jesus is the ONLY way the ONLY truth and the ONLY life. Jesus is the lifeboat that God sent out to sea to save humanity; Jesus is the only rescuer or redeemer that the LORD God sent to deliver us from our sinful state. Anyone who rejects Christ Jesus, rejects the only life source to God. You want to talk about love! You don’t love enough if you know someone is going to burn in hell, all you can tell them is God loves you! You don’t love enough, if a friend is condemn for eternity because they reject Jesus as the ONLY way, and all you can tell them is I can’t judge you. Before you can bring light to others, make sure you allow the Light to clear the path for your salvation.
Yochee
Actually, Jesus didn’t change God’s Standards at all….but rather to fufill them and make it possible for us, through Him, to meet them as well……..
God’s law is not “done away” with or “abolished”……the law is fulfilled, meaning it is completed in jesus Christ & alive forever more. If it were abolished, we would have supreme reason to be concerned…..
Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Matthew 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
“Till all be fulfilled” is concerning Christ’s atoning sacrifice for all eternity.
The law being fulfilled and alive bears record for our reconciliation to God through the Lord Jesus Christ.
(MN: Well said Grid. Well said. )
The where does tithing come in all of this. If we are commanded to tithe in the old testament then the same in the new testament.
Please show me the Tithe in the NT.
And please do not state Matthew 23:23.
Jesus’ mission had not been fulfilled at this point, so the law of God was still binding to the letter until the advent. This is what he consitently taught.
Rather than focusing on whether Tithing is or isn’t required nowadays, perhaps we should be more concerned with what the benefits of tithing 10% are to the Body of Christ (and I do believe there are enough for it to be something we as Christians should do)
So often, many get into debates about whether or not it’s biblical that it seems that we miss all of the practical applications that can come from it (More later)……..
The issue is NOT the aspect of giving. The issue is the binding relevance of the tithe. As a child of the most high God, giving is of the very nature and essence of God.
Giving (monetary, your time, gifts, talents, etc) is an aspect of a true child of God because it falls in the realm of the debt of love. (Rom 13:8-10)
One cannot give without a grudge if they are bound (by what they are taught) to do it. (2 Cor 9:7)
That is the very reason the Apostle Paul said to give out of what you have….not what you do not have. (2 Cor 8:12). One must first have a willing mind to give. Interesting that Paul never mentioned bringing the tithe, nor did he (nor the other Apostles) collect them.
The ideology of the tithe can be followed to support ministry. The BINDING aspect of it is no longer applicable.
In OT application, it belonged to the priests (Levites). The Levitical priesthood is no longer in existence as our representative.
Jesus is now our High Priest who is seated on God’s right hand God as the atonement for the people.
Since the tithe was used to support the Levites (God’s governing priests), this was essentially a tax because the theocracy was set up in like manner to support them (as governing authorities) as they served God and ruled the people.
We pay the same today to our government.
We miss out when we gloss over the truth, and refuse to discuss matters that are relevant to understanding scripture.
I would not have mentioned Matthew 23:23 but Galatians 3:29 since we are Abraham’s descendants in conjunction with Genesis 14:20. The tithe is pre-Law.
(MN: No, Abraham and Jacob gave a tenth of what they had - once. It was not a repeated deal. The Tithe has specific rules and is reserved for specific purposes, none of which can be obeyed in the church since none of the circumstances exist. If you choose to give 10 percent in faith, in response to what God has done in your life, that’s fine. But the instant you make it a demand and a requirement, you have passed from grace to law. If you want to give 30 percent or your income, that’s fine. But the instant you make it a demand and a requirement, you have passed from grace into law. And the two simply do not mix.
A church might not get “enough” money if they don’t require tithing? Hey, maybe that church shouldn’t exist. Or perhaps the pastor should be willing to - oh, I don’t know - GET A JOB like paul, to support himself. You don’t have a building? Rent a hall, as small a hall as the offerings will support. And if they are enough to support one at all, then maybe the group SHOULD cease to exist.
Most folks who push tithes generally promote the ideas that a church has to have a building, the pastor has to be full time, and they (the church) has to have a lot of money to do things in the neighborhood as a church organization. I suspect you would be hard pressed to show me any of these ideas in the New Testament. Sure an ox should be fed, but it doesn’t say he has to be fed vintage hay. )
This is one of the best short explanations on the tithe that I’ve read. I’ve heard pastors tie in that we are of the Levitical priesthood and are bound to tithe. Don’t have a problem with giving. The issue comes in when so much emphasis is placed on tithing and robbing God and not attempting to explain or teach the whole true concerning the tithe.
double G, nothing wrong with giving 10%, but the problem is the application. If one is going to observe the law of tithing they would have to do it exactly the way that it was instituted in the old testament. And if you are going to observe the tithing law, then you will have to observe the entire law. How about you read the book of Galatians.
See, you can’t say that Christ nailed the law to the cross, but then say that we are still bound to the Old Covenent laws. Which one is it? To me this isn’t even an issue of whether on should give or not, the answer to that is obvious. But, the issue is that churches misaply scripture to pressure folk to give and over-burden them with man-made laws.
Who ever demands a tithe? I’ve never heard of that, much less experienced it. I do not recall stating that it was mandatory. A Christian would do it because they wish to. If it’s not the Christian’s duty to futher the Kingdom of G-d, then I’m confused about what Christianity is being discussed. I am not under the Law. However, if a person chooses not to support the work of G-d with their money, I personally, would not listen to complaints about personal finances. Nor any comments or complaints about folks not being fed, able to read, get their GEDs, etc., in their community. And how, exactly are missionaries funded? How are resources sent and the Gospel spread if not through the tithe and offerings?
(MN: The demand is usually in the form of “You are robbing God if you don’t tithe. And you are cursed with a curse if you steal from God.” A variant is: You are being disbedient and selfis, you can’t expect to prosper if you don’t tithe. )
TOG,
Please note that I never said that you were BOUND to Old Covenant Laws. The Sacrifical System, for example, isn’t something we’re bound to anymore because of Christ but the practical applications/principles behind it (realizing the seriousness of sin, the Holiness of God, the impossiblity of man ability to cover his sin, which is why the sacrifices point to Christ and His Sacrifice Alone as the Ultimate One, etc).
Just had to clarify….
And by the way, feel free to call me by my other tag “G-Dub” (compliments of my witty but polar opposite brother, Mr.GaryV, LOL….man has got skill when it comes to creativity) if that’ll be shorter for you to write (unless, of course, you wish to use “copy and paste”)
Blessings….
(MN: The demand is usually in the form of “You are robbing God if you don’t tithe. And you are cursed with a curse if you steal from God.” A variant is: You are being disbedient and selfis, you can’t expect to prosper if you don’t tithe. )
Fortunately, I haven’t had that experience. Every Christian has the obligation to be a steward over the monies that the L-rd provides them. If they see that the pastor’s car/house etc. gets upgraded while their church is not doing most of the tasks I mentioned previously, or living at a substantially higher standard of living than they, then it is expected of them to close their wallet. We have no money. All of it is His and is to be used to run the Gospel’s engine.
(MN: Consider yourself blessed. You have escaped the scourge of Christianity. IN fact, your church seems to have the right idea in the whole thing. )
The tithe comes in the form of pressure…..ever been in a COGIC Church?
Prior to accepting the offering….”All the tithers please stand”…..
Now how is a novice to articulate what is occuring before them when the are sitting and those whom are giving are commended to stand?
This occurs in quite a few COGIC Churches….not to mention Bishop Blakes’s church (West Angeles). And Bishop Blake is the 1st Vice Presidnt of this organization behind GE Patterson of COGICS nationwide.
So this is not some store front-church type of pressure tactic.
The pressure comes when the pracher reaches series’ on the tithe, preaching “first-fruits” or God won’t bless you….you will be cursed with a curse……
Pressure comes in the form of churches NOT assiting individuals monetarily unless they access their financials and tithe records prior to considering such……
Pressure comes in the form of conforming to the church “vision” or agenda…..or be left behind and chastised among your leaders/peers accordingly (to their interpretation of the Word)……
Oh yes there is pressure to tithe.
Question: If one isn’t bound by the letter of the law, does that mean that the Spirit (principle) behind it is no longer in effect?(regarding tithing, specifically the principle/practicality of simply giving 10% to a church ministry)
Is tithing impractical or damaging in any way?
(MN: I’m not bound by the sacrificial law, but the spirit behind it is still applicable. The very same thing is true of Tithing. I can’t just go down to my Altar in my basement and offer up Scruffy or Mr. Bopkins, ignoring all the rules ahd regulations for sacrifices. Why should Tithing (not giving as I am moved by the Spirit) be any different? If I can work the Tithe as I want, then what was the point of the detailed instructions? )
Walkbyfaith as Melvin stated if you are being told that “if you don’t tithe, then you are cursed with a curse” or “you will have a hole in your pocket” or “the Lord will not bless you”, then that is coersing someone to give. You are correct, we are supposed to support the ministry, no doubt. But plainly stating it, you don’t have to twist and lie on the bible to get money from people. If the followers are truely sincere, then they will give. Furthermore, though i’m not an expert on Church disciple, but I don’t believe that leadership should be in a position to have the saints be the primary source of income. To me, they should be able to support themselves so that they won’t be tempted to beg for money.
Currently, I’m on a 200 Word Leash (arrrggghhh) and thus cannot cover all angles as I normally would (MN:which is why you are on the two hundred word leash ), so I’ll try to post things a bit at a time…..
IMO, one reason I think the tithing principle is RELEVANT is because it helps churches to be like families.
The beauty and brilliance of the tithing principle is that each member gives equally. The single mom who only makes $450 per week can look at her $45 tithe check, sitting next to the successful buisness owners who make $4000 per week and their $400 tithe without shame or superiority. They both gave EQUALLY to THEIR church family. (MN: G, Unless you’re working with the new math, $45 does not equal $400. One is much larger than the other. I also suggest that the one who makes $450 a week is less likely to be able to afford $45 without really having to struggle. What if, in faith, the Lord would have the woman give nothing and instead pay attention to her children’s food, clothing, and education and have the business man give more than 10%? The Tithe mindset tramples all over this. And suppose the Lord moves on the congregation’s “corporate” heart to stay in a small school auditorium or the Library rather than obligating for a new building? Then what is the need for the $400 from the one and the $45 from the other [who can’t afford it and do a good job raising her children]? Remember, the purpose of the meeting is to edify the members. And that edification can and should take place anywhere, not just in a building. )
When someone does NOT tithe, they seem to be boldly saying to the person sitting next to them: “You pay your share of the expenses in our church family And YOU PAY MY SHARE of the expenses in our church family!”…..
And it’s nearly impossible to ever have church become a family unless you’re willing to share responsibility for the needs in that family. (MN: But the responsibilities are hardly ever financial. You don’t need a building. And if the family doesn’t want to meet in a building, why should they? None of what the Bible describes as our responsibilities toward one another revolve around the facilities and trappings of church. God blesses me with a job so I can be a blessing to the saints, not so I can give more to a building fund or a maintenance account. )
Though various ways to become a family in church exist, there’s something especially uniting when everyone, including the Pastor himself, is giving equally together…….seeing that their gift/sacrifice is actually helping someone in need (Acts 4:32-37) (MN: This isn’t the idea behind the tithe. It’s simply giving as the Lord moves in your heart. Which is what I have been maintaining. )
JMO
If I’m hearing you correct TOG, are you saying you believe it to be OKAY for Pastors to live off of the income of the church as long as they have jobs outside the church? Just wanted to clarify so I don’t put words in your mouth when I respond……
Curious,
For those who feel that pressure is placed on them when people say things like “Your Robbing God!” or “You’re Being Selfish”, why is it beneficial not to tithe?
Is it unselfish or wise to choose to not tithe?
Gdub:”For those who feel that pressure is placed on them when people say things like “Your Robbing God!” or “You’re Being Selfish”, why is it beneficial not to tithe?
Is it unselfish or wise to choose to not tithe?”
… its the motivation behind giving that God is looking for. If you are bound by a law to give a tithe, then you are not doing it with a willing heart, instead you are convinced that you have to.
I say this because, for tithes supporters, the mentality is that “nothing should keep me from paying my tithes”. This would include: Gas and electric, food, rent, a friend or family in need…etc. And if you miss one week of tithing that you have to double up the next week. Now, according to most churches, if you aren’t loyal to in this manner then you are in effect robbing God and a curse will be placed upon your head. With that said, were can you find this principle supported in scripture?
The reality is that, if we are under grace, why then is it are we making attempts to carry laws over that will place a burden back on us. I thought Christ said that “My yolk is light”?
Now for the last time, the bible instructs us to give to support the ministry. I’m not sure how many times that have been mentioned. And yes, if a person has the MEANS to give, but doesn’t, then they are acting in rebellion against God. But please lets not limit this to not tithing or giving to the church. What about the poor? What about folk that are less fortunate than yourself that are outside of the church building? Doesn’t that hold some relevance?
-Now to address your other question. I’m not saying that a pastor has to have a job in order to live off of the church’s income. But what i was saying was that. Pastors would do better to make their own living so that they won’t necessarily feel the need to pressure the saints for money, or alter the message so that more people will stay. Therefore all that they would need to do is preach the gospel with no strings attached. If you have the means to give, then give, if not,then pray that the Lord will provide. That simple.
Statements of “You are a God robber”, nothing is going right in your life because you are operating under a curse because you don’t tithe, you are wearing stolen merchandise, you can’t serve in the church if you aren’t tithing, it’s your reasonable service to tithe, down to….that’s why your home is all messed up…you don’t tithe, etc. All are ways of coercing and manipulating people in the church to tithes. I don’t believe the average christian has a problem with giving, but being coerced and manipulated into it brings about the problem. We move from tithes to bringing firstfriut offerings….. What else will we come up with next!
To Anonymous, re: “You are a God robber…” Next is removing the gold jewelry ONLY from your body, and pockets, and purses and placing them in felt-lined offering plates “for the building of the kingdom.” That’s what a mega “church” in DeKalb County, GA has been known to do. Then there is the “will” or “living trust,” made out to the “church.” Though these tombs tell the dumb sheep to “get out of debt,” in the same breath they encourage them to pay tithes and give offerings using your credit card. This is another ruse to use your credit card information to regularly deduct those “gifts” from you to their coffers.
No G…you may be missing the point. Please re-read my original post on this.
The first statement given made clear the issue is not that of giving. It is the tithe being “binding” or “required”.
Giving is the nature of God, you can even follow the “pattern”, “ideology”, or “principle” of the tithe in supporting ministry.
The instant you are instructed to give because your righteousness in Christ is correlated with this….you fall into the rudiments of the law.
The Spirit behind the law is forever more. the “letter” of the law is not binding any longer because of Jesus’ fulfillment of the law on the cross.
Anytime you see “letter” (concerning the law), this was speaking expressly of the {outward} written form of the law. Not the spirit of the law (which is now satisfied in love). - Romans 13:8 , Galatians 5:14
Romans 7:6 (speaks of the oldness of the letter, which merely denotes the old way of literal outward OUTWARD obedience to the law as a set of EXTERNAL rules of conduct.)
Romans 7:6
But now we are {delivered from the law}, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in {newness of spirit}, and not [in] the {oldness of the letter}.
The spirit of God in the issuance of the law lives, the letter (as in the written “outward” form of obedience to laws based on the written text) kills…..we are free from the written law’s grip through Christ’s atonement eternally.
The law as it was written, and eventually edited by a Pharisse/Maccabee “merger” placed scrupulous demands (not freedom) according to the {written} law of Moses.
The written law of Moses was used to govern OUTWARD obedience. This is why Jesus pierced their hearts with regard to their true motives in each discourse. The outward {law} was more essential to them.
Jesus came to show us the way the law couldn’t.
Galatians 3:24
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; {not of the letter}, but of the spirit: for the {LETTER KILLETH}, but the {SPIRIT GIVETH LIFE}.
The Apostle Paul emphasizes they are not ministers according to the letter of the law…..but of the spirit of Christ.
Give cheerfully (2 Cor 9:7) (emphasizing Christ as the fulfillment of the law)….not giving with a grudge, or improper motive…..because if we indeed have the newness of life, we can’t give with a grudge.
Since the law governed external obedience, one could grudgingly (which is inward) tithe (according to OT), and appear to be fine externally.
Jesus dealt with matters of the heart. The law of love is internal, and existed from the beginning.
1 John 3:11
For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
Righter agrees now, henceforth and forever more; no one, Trinitarian, Oneness or anything in between, tells her what to do with her money…
Leviticus 27:31
And if a man will at all redeem [ought] of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth [part] thereof.
This is one you will NEVER hear. This scripture (if applicable) states that we can redeem (borrow) our “tithe”.
The Lord led me to this sometime ago when I first started asking questions.
You must pay back 20% on top when you come to bring the next time.
These men are NOT preists.
(MN: I went ahead and posted this comment. I kinda suspected the merry-go-round would start up again once the topic of tithing came up. This is the last one until you read the paper on tithing located here. It addresses most of the stuff people drag out in defense of Tithing. Read this paper and if you are going to respond, respond to the issues in the paper. Don’t quote Malachi or Deut or Matt or Heb unless you address the points presented in the paper. )
It is believed that since the tithes were part of the Law which is no longer applicable to Christians, so too the tithes are no longer a requirement for us today. It is also a fact that many preachers, in a relentless greed for filthy lucre, have manipulated crowds into giving huge sums of money for worthless causes. However the issue concerning us is not whether certain preachers are worthy to receive financial support, but whether the NT requires of us the tithe.
It must be noted that the tithe predates the law. The most obvious reference to tithing before the Law was Abraham and Melchizedek (Gen. 14:20). Heb. 5:6, 10 state that Jesus was a priest after the order of Melchizedek rather than after Aaron. In chapter 7 it discusses how great Melchizedek was that Abraham paid tithes to him. Although it is not spelled out, it would seem obvious that if Jesus is a high priest comparable to Melchizedek, then we ought to pay tithes to him as a testimony of His greatness (Heb. 7:3).
In Matt. 23:23; Lk. 11:42 Jesus, in the midst of scorching condemnation of the Pharisees, stopped to commend their practice of tithing , even though they were not doing it with the right heart (Lk. 18:!2). One could always argue that they were still under the old covenant and Jesus was simply advising them accordingly. However the are other NT allusions to the principle of tithing.
Among the reasons given for the tithe under the Law were:
1. the support of the ministry (Num. 18:21-26; Neh 10:37; 12:44; Mal 3:10),
2. the support of the poor (Deut. 14:27-29; 26:12-14).
Basically the tithe was used to further the work of God. Paul had much to say concerning this.
* Gal. 6:6 , we must share material things with those who teach us in the Word.
* 1 Cor. 9:7-14 , ministers are to be supported by the congregation. This is the way God ordained it.
* 1 Cor. 16:2 , there is a relationship between our earnings and our giving. Although the OT gives that ratio as 10%, this verse seems to leave it up to the individual’s discretion. I could hardly imagine though that the ratio would be less. Much more is demanded of us than in the OT (Heb. 10:28,29; 12:25). To conclude that we are not required to tithe since the NT does not explicitly command it, is to totally miss the point of the NT.
· Matt. 10:10; Lk. 10:7, 8 , Jesus taught his disciples to live off what was given to them by others, He himself setting the example (Lk. 8:4).
Thus the precedent is clearly set in the NT that ministers ought to be supported financially, very much as was the case in the OT. It is also clear in both testaments that they should not seek to live extravagantly but to be satisfied with their basic needs being met (1 Tim. 6:6-10).
There are other reasons why we should tithe. The golden rule implies that if we give generously, we would always be in a position to lend and not borrow (2 Cor. 8, 9; Phil. 4:19). We are certainly not limited to the tithe but giving to the ministry and to the poor should be our way of life. The principle of tithing and giving is clearly presented in both testaments. Failure to take heed could only be the result of a stingy spirit. Furthermore, if tithing were more consistently practiced, most preachers would be able to devote themselves fully to the ministry, better able to minister to God’s people, and missionary work would be well funded. If we really are Christians, these things should be of foremost importance to us.
I think that Melvin made a pretty broad statement when he said that the hardships in ministry are hardly ever financial.
To say that a large congregation (not necessarily mega-church size) doesn’t need to meet in a church building seems silly. (MN: But you’re assuming the “large congregation” has to meet, or that there should even BE a large congregation. But, if the people agree and freely give (FREELY GIVE) for a building, then fine. And I don’t believe I said hardships are hardly ever financial. I said responsibilities are hardly ever financial. The members of the body are to care for each other. The gifts to the body (pastor, etc.) are to edify one another. I don’t see a fiscal REQUIREMENT anywhere in here until we start say “We have to have a building like this or that to worship in”. One group I fellowshipped with met in a YWCA exercise/dance hall on Sundays. The group I fellowship with now met in a garage, a couple of stalls down from a fellow who maintained a drag car (I never realized those cars could be so loud). You don’t need a dedicated building to minister to each other. That is what our homes are for. I stand by my statement. I actually miss the building and the things we could do there. )
Meeting in people’s houses is one thing (or another buiding of some sort), but room runs out eventually if it gets too big. And if meeting in a building is uneccesary, then I suppose all the other people meeting in church buildings are just doing so for the fun of it. I guess buying food for things like communion or bread for the homeless, clothing for a church thrift store, scholarships/money for things like youth camps, bible college, or a room for child care in a church (something that I don’t think any of us, though we say we don’t need them, would really be consistent with that in real life……unless the churches ya’ll attend do things by a different standard and are doing just fine) (MN: And now you get to the crux of the matter. Is the local church supposed to do this or is the individual? I suggest that many of us “let” the church organization do these things so we don’t have to worry about them. The Puritans and other Reformed folks did not have children’s ministries. The children attended with the adults and the adults tolerated the presence of the children, their fruit. Most of what we do today is out of convenience and crowd appeal, not out of a desire to be obedient to God and His word. I’ll even go out on a limb here and say that what we call communion is really just a slim shadow of a real live communion feast. You know, real bread, not that little wafer, real food and fellowship with the other saints. )
For that matter, I would think that meeting the needs of the poor, feeding the homeless, and getting involved in the community, as the church in Acts did (MN: Try again - The church in acts ministered to the Christians. They met in each other’s homes. They ate meals with each other and they studied and prayed together IN EACH OTHER’S HOMES, not at the Victorious Living Christian Center and Homeless Shelter.) , is a pretty heavy financial matter. Many of these endeavors, if not all, require a good bit of cash……. The finances don’t come out of nowhere. Even with jobs, having them often isn’t enough (especially, when many in church keep the majority of money for themselves and spend it on themselves) and tithing would seem to be a practical way of taking care of that.
What’s the real problem? (MN: Making the church organization do things it really isn’t here to do. )
The law of love does not require obedience to the letter (written) law. It is written in your heart. The fact that Christ is in your heart points you to the cross in which you give freely in love, not because of the letter.
Jesus did not commend the men in Matthew 23:23….in fact he stated that there are matters heavier than these (tithes).
What about Matthew 7:11-13?
11) - But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, [It is] Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; [he shall be free].
12) - And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13) - Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Corban meaning, a gift to God. So the law of love (for an evident household need) is nullified (Jesus said made of NONE effect) by the fact that men claim a gift for God via tradition/rules/regulations & justify null support for parents.
How many claim a gift for God and refuse to give to the individual whom really needs it? Are we giving with false motives? Are we holding out for the church because we were told that if we gave to them we would be the head and not the tail?
The Bible is clear on this. The law of love is written in the heart. God would not want you to support the group when there are needs within your own home, his order is perfect.
Failing to care for needs of the home defies his own divine order of creation. Homes must be in order, because the home is a direct correlation with the church, and the church is a correlation of him.
2 Corinthians 3:3
[Forasmuch as ye are] manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
The tithe is a principle that can be followed, but not ahead of God’s order in the home and family.
Hey Anonymous, can you answer me this? What is mint and dill and cumin? You stated:
“Jesus, in the midst of scorching condemnation of the Pharisees, stopped to commend their practice of tithing , even though they were not doing it with the right heart (Lk. 18:12). One could always argue that they were still under the old covenant and Jesus was simply advising them accordingly. However the are other NT allusions to the principle of tithing.”
If one did want to “argue” that they were operating under the old testament then they were “Tithing” under the OLD TESTAMENT standards of “Off the land.” Can we agree on this? No money transaction took place here. Oh, yeah, and they had money back then, you know that right?
(MN: Remember People, I’m not real interested in staying on this merry-go-round. )
Anonymous…..giving and tithing are TWO separate things. Paul did not have much to say about tithing….he didn’t even instruct any of the church leaders to do it!
The Epistles govern EVERYTHING from church order, to the appointment of Elders, Husbands and wives - the correaltion of marriage and how it represents the Father and his church…..but….no tithe.
Did he miss it? Will all of the instruction. He never mentions following this practice. If the tithe was required, why did not the man mention it? He wrote 2/3 of the New Testament.
He instructs his followers to follow the spirit of God when it comes to giving (2 Cor 8:12 , 2 Cor 9:7) and gives practical instruction with regard to the blessings of giving (2 Cor 9:6;8) ….he doesn’t tell them to tithe……he didn’t collect them either.
Why? He was more than qualified if this were in practice. None of the apostles did. Individuals gave what they had (which was more than 10% Acts 4:35-37) in order to support the church.
Ananias & Sapphira (Acts 5:1-5) lied to the Holy Spirit about what they had given. These were freewill gifts. The distribution was made to all, and none lacked. That is not the case today.
Consider me off the merry go round. Got any bumper cars at the theme park?
Yeah. I am good. Here……No more diziness.
yo anonymous the real problem is that most of the preachers are keeping the money so they can by Rolls Royces, Jet planes, and other toy’s that have nothing to do with spreading the gospel. Why you need a jet, if you disciple the people, and ministers in your church, then you can send them out. Why you(the pastor) gotta be the one jet settin all over the world. It’s because of greed, they are CEO’s now and not pastors.
Anyway I’m with melvin, I’m tired of this merry go round
binks
The biggest question I have is if the gospel of Jesus Christ is free, why are pastors selling tapes and books that God has given them?
Mabye it’s just me, but my equilibrium level is quite fine right now. I checked out both’s Mr.Melvin’s esssay, Aninymous, Grids, and others and there doesn’t seem to be a merry-go round at all. But that’s just me…..