Also,Melvin did NOT say that all emotion is wild emotionalism. I’ve re-read the posts in question and cannot lay my finger upon any statement that even suggests as much. Once again, you’ve read into what’s written something that is not there.

You also claim that emotion can be “proof”…….then I suppose the Mormons have “proof” that they are right as well, with their burning bosum, and the shamans have “proof” with their ecstatic utterances, and the snake-handlers and poison drinkers have “proof” with their emotionally driven services as well?? If emotions are “proof”, then you have only two options available to you that do not violate the laws of logic and non contradiction:

1) Only Christians who are orthodox in their doctrine and in proper relationship with God HAVE emotions. No one else CAN have them, since emotions constitute “proof” of being right with God and having valid experiences with Him. Of course, God would never give “proof” (emotions) to anyone who was NOT right with Him, else He would be a deceiver

2) Everything that generates emotions (proof) is correct, since emotions are “proof” that what occurs is valid. Therefore, when a shaman is caught up in the emotions of his religious experience, those emotions must also constitute “proof” that his paganism is true. When a Mormon gets his emotional experience of the “burning bosum”, that must also be “proof” that the god of Mormonism is correct. When a Muslim gets on Al Jezeera and works himself into an emotional frenzy telling America that Allah is god, then those emotions are also “proof” that Allah IS god. When a Wiccan has an emotional reaction to their worship, that as well is “proof” that Wicca is true.

Of course, the problem with this abject illogic is that while ALL of these worshipers get genuinely emotional through their worship experiences, thereby having “proof” that their experiences are genuine, they all worship different beings that directly contradict each other and cannot possibly co-exist.

Can you please cite for us the Scriptural support for your contention that emotions constitute “proof” that an experience is from God?? We would also require some Scriptural validation that somehow the genuine emotions of pagans and heathens for some reason do NOT do NOT constitute “proof” that THEIR worship experiences are genuine.

Let’s look at what we CAN glean from the Bible.

Exd 32:1 And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for [as for] this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.
Exd 32:2 And Aaron said unto them, Break off the golden earrings, which [are] in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring [them] unto me.
Exd 32:3 And all the people brake off the golden earrings which [were] in their ears, and brought [them] unto Aaron.
Exd 32:4 And he received [them] at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These [be] thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
Exd 32:5 And when Aaron saw [it], he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow [is] a feast to the LORD.
Exd 32:6 And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.

(GV) “Play” here is from the Hebrew word meaning “1) to laugh, mock, play.”

Sounds like they were having quite the emotional experience with their golden calf.

Exd 32:7 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted [themselves]:
Exd 32:8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These [be] thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

(GV) Skipping over the parenthetical insertion of Moses bargaining with God for the lives of Israel, we pick it up here:

Exd 32:17 And when Joshua heard the noise of the people as they shouted, he said unto Moses, [There is] a noise of war in the camp.
Exd 32:18 And he said, [It is] not the voice of [them that] shout for mastery, neither [is it] the voice of [them that] cry for being overcome: [but] the noise of [them that] sing do I hear.

(GV) Singing……..what is more emotive than song?? What gets the emotions going more especially than a good worship tune. Of course, their emotions are engaged while experiencing worship of a false idol. Hard to see these emotions as “proof” that their experience is genuine and Godly though.

Exd 32:19 And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses’ anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount.

(GV) Dancing too……..another emotional activity. So we have dancing, singing, worship, playing and laughing. Sounds pretty emotional, yet it is hardly proof that their experiences were genuine or Godly, since Moses had to beg God to spare them from utter destruction.

While emotions are proper in their context, they are NEVER proof that an experience is from God, as we have just seen.

In fact, the Bible records that the heart is the seat of the emotions.

Job 29:13 The blessing of him that was ready to perish came upon me: and I caused the widow’s heart to sing for joy.

Psa 4:7 Thou hast put gladness in my heart, more than in the time [that] their corn and their wine increased.

Psa 13:2 How long shall I take counsel in my soul, [having] sorrow in my heart daily?

Psa 19:8 The statutes of the LORD [are] right, rejoicing the heart:

Psa 28:7 The LORD [is] my strength and my shield; my heart trusted in him, and I am helped: therefore my heart greatly rejoiceth;

Psa 39:3 My heart was hot within me

The heart of man is the wellspring of emotions. Unfortunately, that is not all the Bible has to say about the heart.

Jer 17:9 — The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Pro 28:26 He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool:

Emotions spring from a heart that can be neither known nor trusted. Emotions are proof of nothing. Not primarily, not secondarily, not at all. The Word alone is “proof” of what is proper and right before God.

Whether it’s genuine or not is between them and God. He definitely will expose falsehood.

I’ll send you the email after lunch.

(MN: I agree. It is certainly a non-essential. But actually, I suspect we are miscommunicating a little. )

Allow me to give you an illustration of wild emotionalism. A couple of years ago, I went to Ebenezer AME church when they invited Louis (aka Calypso Louie) Farrakhan in to build support for the Millions More March held in DC that year.

Here is a paragraph listed from the original posting:

Around 7:25 the holy cheerleader, also known as the Worship Leader, came out and worked the crowd up. It didn’t take a lot. Before too long, the place was jumpin’. People were waving their hands, dancing in the aisles, and telling their neighbors how much they loved Jesus. They were giving each other hugs, pointing at each other or to themselves and testifying to the fact that they are blessed. I hadn’t heard most of it since I left First Baptist Church of Glenarden some four years ago. This went on for about twenty to twenty five minutes.

Once the crowd was sufficiently worked up, the main group entered. Everybody stood shouting “Thank you Jesus” as Browning, Wilson, and Louie entered the room and sat on the platform. It was like something out of the Twilight Zone. A bunch of supposed Christians were welcoming a man who readily denies Jesus Christ as God and worships a god who has little or nothing in common with the God of the Bible. But once the pastors began speaking I understood how this could be.

I would categorize this event as a display of wild emotionalism. Why? Because it had nothing to do with the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit. I don’t beleive it was emotion generated as a result of a relationship with God. These people were busy reacting to the Holy Cheerleader, not responding to anything God was doing in their hearts.

Notice, they praised God for Farrakhan, they thanked Jesus for Farrakhan. And when he spoke (denying the supremacy of Jesus, by the way) they responded in the usual manner. This was certainly an emotional response. But it had nothing whatsoever to do with God.

Again, I tend to agree with GaryV (maybe we are attached at the hip). Emotion is a fine companion, but it is not a guide. Even in the Book of Psalms, the writer makes it clear that we are to follow God’s Word, not our emotions. And in saying this, I am taking the approach that love (agape type) is not an emotion. Good speakers are able to prick our emotions. But they don’t have to appealing to Godly principles to do it. Visit your local Klan meeting. If the Grand Klaxon has any speaking skills at all, you will see emotions run rampant in the crowd. But it has nothing to do with Godliness.

Listen to the average Liberal present an argument. They appeal to - that’s right - your emotions. The result? We have to actually fight to keep homosexual marriage from becoming the law of the land.

And as you pointed out, emotion, just like rationality, has to be subject to the Holy Spirit, otherwise, I would allow my anger, frustration, bewilderment, etc. control me, even as those people who thoughtlessly and ebulliently praised Farrakhan as a man of God. I am to be controlled by the Holy Spirit, not my emotion, not my own selfish desires, not even by my image of who I am or who I think I am.

Though I understand what you are saying, I generally cannot see a valid reason for the majority of the people in room (let’s call it a couple of hundred or more) to stand, dance around, shout, and holler for five or ten minutes with the organ laying down a step beat to keep them going. On the other hand, I can see a person weeping or crying out to God in brokeness as the Word is actually being preached. Heck, if someone comes to understand their true sinfullness for the first time, I would expect exactly that.

Yes, emotion is a part of us. So is sex. But that doesn’t mean we should display our sexuality all the time. Neither should we, according to the epistles, make our gathering together a display of emotions.

Can I judge what’s in a person’s heart? Certainly not. But can I question the circumstances and methods used to get people wound up? I believe so, especially when it is so obvious. Attend First Baptist Church of Glenarden’s service a couple of times. You will be able to predict exactly when the tihtes and offering are going to be taken up. Or if there is a guest speaker, you will be able to detect the coming end of the sermon, when a love offering will be taken up for the speaker based purely on the level of excitement the speaker or the Holy Cheerleader is maintaining in the crowd.

GaryV, your comment that emotion is a “fine companion” is only partially true from my perspective. I believe that it is a God-given companion. The key is to bring everything including “emotions” under the controlling power of the Holy Spirit. I know that you’re saying that you’re not saying that emotion is bad, but from someone who has never been to this site before as myself and who has no biases at all about any of these things that you are talking about, I want to tell you my friend, it sounds exactly like that. I don’t know if you want to maybe clarify your statement more or maybe you’ve allowed the microcosm to become the macro. Maybe you’ve applied your personal perspective to the whole. Maybe you were so jaded by your experiences that you only see the negative now. I don’t know. All I’m saying is that it sounds like it you are saying that you shouldn’t have any emotions at all.

Mel, contrary to your statement, you basically did say that “all” emotionalism is wild emotionalism. And if I misunderstood, please forgive me. However, I would like for you to define what exactly “wild emotionalism” is. Is it wild when others begin to notice you? Is it wild when it can no longer be contained in the confines of your bosom and erupts through your vocal chords in loud speech. Is it “dancing in the spirit.” Is it being too loud? How loud is too loud? I mean what is it?

It just sounds like some things are too much for you personally and that your proposed prohibition of it and casting it into the field of biblical error directly comes from your experiences. I mean Mel, how do you judge the hearts of 5,000 men and women in a single room? Don’t me get me wrong and don’t misunderstand my statement. I am not some covert advocate for Jakes, some spy trying to get close to you, or anything of that nature…it’s just that I think you could be a little more definitive in your prohibitive expression.

Furthermore, I think that when you try to define what it really is you will inevitably run into an area of personal dislikes based on past experiences than you will scriptural based exclusions.

Emotion is not only a result of our interaction with God, it is a result of his interaction with us and it is how he made us. The entire book of Psalms is a book of emotion. I mean Mel if you want to use your biblical interpretive talents to judge whether people are in wild emotionalism at popular preacher’s meetings then go ahead, but it’s really a waste of time, and then the other thing is you really don’t know. Maybe it’s not my ministry, but I don’t get it. I also disagree that emotion can never serve as a proof, because it can. It may not be the primary indicator, but it can definitely serve as proof of many things in life, including worship. That’s all I will say about that.

It seems that you have gone to all emotion to no emotion and that if your internal emotion ever escapes into the external then somehow there’s something wrong. Again, I could be wrong, but that’s what it sounds like.

I also read your essay on marriage. Great read. I’ve just written an article entitled, “Whatever Happened to the Gospel”, that will be featured on the January edition of http://www.blackgospel.com…I‘ll shoot you an email of it. I’ve got a “seminarian version” and then the version that will post on the site. I’d love your thoughts on it.

In His Grip,

Dan

Religous experiences however do involve emotionalism. The problem is that when these emotions take priority over the Word of God. People judge the Word of God by their experiences rather than their experiences by the Word of God. And you did not say this but you somewhat eluded to it, and that is that we don’t always have emotion when it comes to God and it should never be used as the primary indicator that worship or anything else similar is actually taking place. However, we can’t judge “everybody” who has an emotion and say that they are “caught up” in emotionalism and have no idea what true worship or true Chrisitianity is. We just can’t say that. Jakes has proven that when it comes to the essential tenants of Christianity that he has shown major cracks in his doctrinal presentation. I’ll give you that. You have no argument with me there.

Some people who go to these meeting could actually just fall under the umbrella of ignorace, especially if they have never heard anything to the contrary.

I grew up in the C.O.G.I.C. my entire life went through the entire process of “tarrying” and unlike you it wasn’t a waste of time. It was critical in my development of studying the Word of God for myself. I couldn’t understand why I had to be clean in order to receive the Holy Ghost when the book of Peter declared that his blood had made me “white as snow.” I distinctly remember telling my Pastor that the whole experience made me feel as if I was in competition with Jesus on who could make me cleaner, me or him. It was through that experience that the Holy Spirit, who fulfilled the promise that Jesus made when he said the Spirit will, “lead us into all truth.” It was then that I began to break from C.O.G.I.C. doctrine.

I see that experience as a major positive because I truly found God. I discovered that I receive his Spirit at the moment of salvation, that the evidence of his Spirit is a life that manifests the “fruit of the Spirit” and continues in the words of Jesus. If it wasn’t for that crushing, I wouldn’t have come to know God for myself. I am thankful.

You can throw Jakes in that pot, but the truth of the matter is everyone that has emotion is not some heretic waiting for a platform.

Don’t take this the wrong way, but your intelligence quotient is too high (I can tell by the way you reason the Scriptures), to make blanket statements like that. Mel, for real, everyone who is emotional in a religious setting is not caught up in “wild emotionalism” and void of the truth of God.

(MN: No one is saying that emotion should be automatically equated to “wild emotionalism” nor heresy waiting for a platform. However, I am saying that quite often (especially in places like FBC Glenarde, Potty House, etc.) depend on a fanning of emotion to get actions from the people. Emotion should be the result of our interaction with God, not a proof of some kind of the interaction. I get quite emotional when dealing with God’s word. The other day I was explaining the idea of self-righteousness to a new Muslim friend of mine - using the Pharisee and the tax collector. I have to say, every time I go over that story, I feel an incredible wave of emotion. )

I agree with everything that you have said. I think that it’s awesome that we still have purveyors of the Word of God such as yourself that take the time to actually contend for the faith. I do have one question though and I want to let you know that this question does not come with a hidden agenda and that my earlier commendation was not meant to mask the question I am about to ask.

I will post your statement in the article and then ask the question. You said:

One thing that I found interesting was his apparent effort to embarrass the men in the audience to jump up and down and shout. He claimed that our boys need to see their fathers shouting and see us being emotional. He said we shouldn’t just sit there quietly. I, on the other hand, think our sons and daughters need to see us living holy and consistent lives, being faithful and supporting men. But that’s just me.

How does that constitute embarrasing the men? Boys do need to view their fathers emotions in a healthy and biblical way. The method that Jakes was suggesting was not necessarily unbiblical. I just didn’t understand the attack on that particular portion of the sermon presentation. You are 100% correct in that sons most of all need to see holiness as it relates to following biblical standards set by God and see it lived out on a consistent basis, but I think that Jakes in this instance was just trying to relate something to his sermon and his omission of what you are suggesting was intentional and does not even come close to doctrinal error . I’ve perused your site several times and I am very thankful for it. You are definitely “contending for the faith.” But just a personal question, “do you think sometimes that because these guys have made so many mistakes that sometimes we become personal with our comments and look for something wrong in EVERYTHING they say because we are already disgusted with them? I know I’ve been guilty of that in my biblical judgment of them. Just a question and an observation that we need to make sure that we’re sticking to evaluations that deal with error of biblical doctrine and not evaluations that are birthed out of personal dislikes and preference. You know? Keep up the good work!

(MN: Here’s the response I gave when I was asked the question the first time:

)

This stuff boils down to entertainment and emotional drama. That was my first and last new years revival.

Agreed.

It’s amusing…….you call out the DOCTRINE and DECEPTION of the Pimp-o-Choice, and they call you unloving.Despite the clear Biblical admonitions………no, COMMANDS……..to do so.

Then…………these Apostles of Love threaten you.Apparently in love .

We have a Biblical mandate to be watchmen upon the wall, warning the sheep. What Biblical mandate is there to threaten those going about their Father’s business??

Targeted……….you’re a hypocrite.

This is the same guy that has been harassing other people on another discussion board that I participate on. He is a moron.

You’ve been targeted. We HaVE ALL OF YOUR INFORMATION. YOU’RE ACTIVITIES ARE BEING MONITORED WHEN YOU LEAST EXPECT IT. TRUST ME, HOMO - THIS IS NOT A GAME OR A BLUFF. YOU DON’T KNOW US, BUT WE CERTAINLY KNOW YOU. FROM HERE ON OUT, WATCH YOUR EVERY STEP, BEACUSE WE ARE. YOUR DAYS OF VERBALLY DESECRATING GOD’s CHOSEN VESSELS AE COMING TO A CLOSE.

WE’RE IN YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD, YOUR GARDEN, AND EVERYWHERE YOU LEAST EXPECT.

HERE IS YOUR PERSONAL INFORMATION IS:

Melvin Jones
****** ******
Wynwood, PA 19096
****** ****** *****
MJONES-111@*******

Server name: a.ns.bytemark.co.uk
b.ns.bytemark.co.uk

GOD IS TIRED OF YOUR FOOLISHNESS. (MN: And I believe He is even more tired of your moronic behavior. Seven words: STUDY YOUR BIBLE AND GET A LIFE. )

Let the games begin….

(MN: Okay - you know how to use WHOIS on Google. I’m impressed. Now check for the currency of the information. Even though I am no E. B. White, I would still suggest you stop wasting time learning cute little Google tricks and take a class in spelling.

And given the lack of accuracy of your information, I don’t think you do know me. )

When attending these type of churches myself,
I usually find myself alone in not standing or waving my hand. Larger congregations there may be a few men who do not shout, yell, or wave.
But I agre with TruthforGod, people seem to approach you and ask if everything is okay when your not doing everything everybody else is doing.
I guess I should just tell them, NO ITS NOT OKAY!

We come across a bunch of dupes who, because of their lack of education, insist that 2+2=5.

Melvin, through his thorough research, has concluded that 2+2=4.

I also have concluded the same thing……..2+2=4.

Since it is a FACT that 2+2=4, why would it be strange that Melvin and I agree, and confront the dupes who insist 2+2=5??

Our agreement, as well as our desire to correct the duped, is based upon the mutual, independent discovery of FACTS.

It’s the same with the Bible………what we espouse is based upon careful Biblical studies. FACTS. Therefore, we agree, because FACTS cannot be denied, and they are easily arrived at INDEPENDENTLY by ANYONE willing to do the work.

If this isn’t clear, I can get some crayons for you and illustrate it.

If you agree with someone, can we call you a groupie??

In defense of these *ahem* (I won’t use the “P” word), a lot of people are coming to God with the wrong motives and the *ahem* (you know the word) give them what they think they are looking for. You cannot mislead someone who is TRULY looking to follow Jesus for the right motive. if my motive were in money and riches, YES, I will follow these *ahem* imps(for lack of that other word). But if I want the truth I would soon turn away from such foolishness and follow Christ. Jesus talked so much about the dangers of riches that one would think before they go whole heartedly after it. I mean, “it is harder for a rich man to enter heaven….” is enough me make me stop and think. It did to the disciples. So i would say it is all in the motives of the ones wanting to follow Christ. I say most in American want the almighty dollar instead of Jesus. Look around you, listen to the sermons, very few people believe God will supply all of their “NEEDS” but they will confess it in conferences all day long. And is every need consisting of money? Hmm. What does it profit a man………..

However, at least the people on this site attempt to back up what they have to say with scripture. Most Christians can’t and then they turn around and say, “because I said so” or “because my Pastor says so” or “because the Bible said it.” but they can’t back it up. I am tired of senior citizens, widows, orphans, economically/educationally disadvantaged people being hurt. It’s wrong on so many levels.