GaryV and G2 have been engaged in a…discussion for the last couple of days. I figured I’d go ahead and put the latest exchange up as a posting and let them get the whole thing out of their systems. Mav, may I have some of your popcorn please?

(MN: G2, I have a note for you at the bottom of this…ahem…epistle. )

G2 wrote……..

In connection with the previous comments:
As you so kindly did previously with my other posts, Gary V, would you please mind responding to me based on what the Word says about what I said?

(Gary)……….errr…….EVERYTHING I said was based upon the Word EXCLUSIVELY. I posted NUMEROUS verses, in context. What did I miss?? You have yet to address ANY of my points.

(G2)Also, if you wouldn’t mind, would you please address all of the Scriptures that I stated as part of my point and not just a couple of the ones that stand out or hold interest? Previously, in another post, you wrote how the Scriptures I cited were not directed at heretics/apostates, and I did take the time to look into all the references you provided and I studied them. Much thanks for clarifying the context of many of the verses I gave like I Peter 3:15 or II Timothy 2:22-26, John 13:34 and others.

(Gary) Am I to assume that this is as close to an admission of taking Scripture out of context as we’re going to get?? So be it.

(G2)However, it did seem as if you ignored all of the other ones I used as well (ex. Jude 1:22-23, which take place right after the call to contend for the faith and harshly speaking of all of the false teachers for what they were….or all of the verses from Proverbs: The Book of Wisdom…which, although not meant to teach doctrine, does provide a “holy mixture of common sense and timely warnings”, as well as plenty of reminders/admonitions providing sound advice for governing our lives ).

(Gary) Let me get this straight……..you want me to address EACH Scripture you cited?? When you have not yet deigned to address ANY of those I cited?? Faux pas, my brother.

You have yet to answer ANY of the questions I posed relative to your misapplication of Scripture. Nevertheless, I will do as you wish……..though you may well wish I had not. I did not address each because the post would have been extremely long, and the reasons I cited for your other Scriptures being out of context were applicable to all.

If you wish me to address any others specifically, please WRITE THEM OUT.

(G2)Seeing that I studied all your verses, it would seem proper for you to do the same with mine.

(Gary) You studied each of the verses I cited?? Marvelous!! When can I expect a response based upon the evidence I cited that you have wrested Scripture from its context?? When can we expect you to address the fact that no example exists anywhere in Scripture to support your opinions?? When can we expect you to address the fact that the only evidence of Scripture plainly shows that we follow the example of both Christ and all other writers of Scripture, while you follow only your own sensibilities and opinion??

(G2)Beyond that, many of the verses you gave/expounded on seemed to be addressed toward those who were in the position of influence/a teacher (much like the Pharisees and false teachers of the Bible were) and not necessarily someone who was a follower of that individual or who simply was struggling to let go of a concept that’s been ingrained in them and that they’ve been believing for years to be true (something that I believe I was trying to focus on more, not necessarily concerning speaking with false teachers/their teachings….correct me if I’m wrong, please)

(Gary) OK……..you’re wrong. Please show me from Scripture where the distinction YOU just made is addressed. Where is the distinction made between someone in authority and someone NOT in authority who spreads doctrinal poison? Paul addressed the entire congregation of Crete…….

Tts 1:10 ¶ For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
Tts 1:11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake.
Tts 1:12 One of themselves, [even] a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians [are] alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
Tts 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

(Gary)Where is the distinction made between teachers and those not in authority?? Were they ALL teachers?? All chiefs and no Indians, so to speak?? Seems Paul had the same attitude toward them ALL, teacher or non-authoritative false teacher alike.

Again, you set up a false scenario with nary a word of Bible to support it.

(G2)Furthermore, seeing that all of the Word/it’s principles (not necessarily all the laws in them, like sacrifices for example, but the principles behind them such as living in the awareness of sin and the unapproachable Holiness of the Lord apart from the perfect sacrifice) from Genesis to Revelation, are applicable for living,

(Gary) Wrong again. All Scripture is NOT applicable to everyone. That is where you got yourself in trouble to begin with.

You post verses about relating to other believers, and contend they relate to false teachers. You cite verses relating to sinners and those with minor doctrinal differences, and contend they relate to false teachers. You cite verses that are directed to the lost, and contend that they relate to false teachers.

The first three elementary rules of Biblical interpretation are these……..
1) Determine WHO is speaking
2) Determine WHO he is speaking TO
3) Determine WHAT is the subject being addressed.

Had you followed these, you would not have run into the contextual problems you seem to continue in.

(G2)as I Timothy 3:16-17 states……

(Gary) I’m assuming you’ve mis-cited the verse you intended. 1 Tim 3:16
“And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”

…….this has no bearing on our discussion, not to mention the fact that there is no 17th verse.

(G2)And in light of the numerous scriptures/godly principles therein concerning how to respond to people…things such as remembering the power of our tongues, be it for good or evil/ benefit or harm, and guarding what one says instead of speaking rashly, or seeking to act out of a spirit of wisdom at all times…not “political correctness” but wisdom…instead of reacting merely out of offense/passion/emotion/untimeliness

(Gary) I showed you the courtesy of writing out the Scripture references I cited. I wish you had showed the same courtesy instead of forcing me to do your homework as well as deconstructing them. However, here we go………..I’ll write out your prooftexts for you.

Pro 10:31 The mouth of the just bringeth forth wisdom: but the froward tongue shall be cut out.(Froward here means “perverse”……was Jesus “perverse” when He used harsh words to false teachers too??Just wondering)
Pro 12:16 A fool’s wrath is presently known: but a prudent [man] covereth shame., (I ask the same question as above……not to mention that I deny that I speak out of wrath. I do not, and neither did Christ.Wrath is yet to come. )
Proverbs 12:18 There is that speaketh like the piercings of a sword: but the tongue of the wise [is] health.,(Again……….we address those who spread error as Christ did. I doubt HE wanted to speak “health” to false teachers either.)
Pro 12:23 A prudent man concealeth knowledge: but the heart of fools proclaimeth foolishness.(Errrrrr….I’m going to assume you didn’t think this through, or you’re calling the exposition of the Word foolishness)
Pro 13:16 Every prudent [man] dealeth with knowledge: but a fool layeth open [his] folly.(See comment above……) Proverbs 14:17, Proverbs 14:29, Proverbs 15:1, Proverbs 15: 2, Proverbs 15: 23, Proverbs16:21, Proverbs 16: 23-24, Proverbs 17:27-28 Proverbs 18:21, Proverbs 21:23, Proverbs 22:11, Proverbs 29:20….

(Gary)OK…………all of the verses you cite deal in this same vein, correct?? If I have omitted any that you wish me to deal with in particular, WRITE IT OUT and I will do so.
I did your work thusfar, and take these as representative of whatever point you seek to make.
Now,the problem with a man seeking a prooftext the way a drowning man claws for a lifepreserver is this……they cite texts without considering the implications.
Ready?? Here we go…….

You have ALREADY admitted that Christ, the OT Prophets, and the NT writers speak to false teachers just as we do.

I’m going to assume you believe Christ is sinless, and that Scripture is inerrant and perfect.

Question…………since we respond to false teachers PRECISELY in the manner Christ did, and PRECISELY as Scripture demonstrates Paul, and Peter, and John, and Jude did, and there exists NO evidence that your view was EVER followed………

If you say I am wrong and sinful and out of love for doing PRECISELY what Christ and the others did, you have painted yourself into a very perilous theological corner. I hope you have some spiritual turpentine to get out.

How can you ascribe sin or wrong to ME, and not to Christ and the others when we have done precisely the same thing?? How did I violate the Word, yet they did not violate the Word doing the very same thing (with even harsher words)??
Did Christ sin with HIS harsh words (much harsher than mine).Did Paul sin?? Peter??

If these Proverbs apply to me, why did they NOT apply to them?? Do they have a special dispensation exempting them from obeying these words?? Did Christ violate these Scriptures?? Why not?? If I did by emulating them, why not THEM??

So……either we are left with a sinful (or at least WRONG) Christ and Apostles and Scripture, or YOU have misapplied Scripture again.I can see no middle ground. Help me here……..

(G2)In light of the what the Word stresses concerning knowing things such as the importance of recognizing that some dialogues should stop

(Gary) Errrrrr…..they DO stop, when their pernicious doctrines have been ADDRESSED sufficiently that no babe in Christ coming here might read them without proper refutation………..thus leaving them open to error and ruin. THAT, Mr G2, is BIBLICAL love.

(G2)and others should never start at all….

(Gary) Unless I’m mistaken, we don’t go out into the internet highway seeking folks to come here and spread their doctrinal manure. They come here……….THEY START the discussions, not us. We don’t leave them unrefuted because of the effects upon those who don’t know enough to discern Truth from error

(G2) and why it’s important to be able to “know a devil when ya see one”/recognize a fool and deal with him or her accordingly (ex. ***Proverbs 9:7-9, Proverbs 13:1, Proverbs 14:3 , **Proverbs 14:6-7, Proverbs 23:9, and **Proverbs 18:2….

(Gary) We DO know the devil when we see one……….we just don’t coddle them as you do. We address them as Biblical precedence dictates.The point is, OTHERS don’t always know a devil when they see one(obviously, or this site would not need to exist), and we make the devil plain for THEIR benefit.

(G2)And, Moreover, in light of what ***James 3 where he talks to those who desire to teach and lets them know of the nature of one’s tongue/what to do with it and more so what a spirit of true wisdom/it’s fruit according to God’s standards looks like in comparison with the bad wisdom/fruit that comes from ours

(Gary)Here is James 3………
James - Chapter 3
Jam 3:1 ¶ My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
Jam 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same [is] a perfect man, [and] able also to bridle the whole body.
Jam 3:3 Behold, we put bits in the horses’ mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body.
Jam 3:4 Behold also the ships, which though [they be] so great, and [are] driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth.
Jam 3:5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
Jam 3:6 And the tongue [is] a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
Jam 3:7 For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind:
Jam 3:8 But the tongue can no man tame; [it is] an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
Jam 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
Jam 3:10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
Jam 3:11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet [water] and bitter?
Jam 3:12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so [can] no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.
Jam 3:13 ¶ Who [is] a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
Jam 3:14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
Jam 3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but [is] earthly, sensual, devilish.
Jam 3:16 For where envying and strife [is], there [is] confusion and every evil work
Jam 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, [and] easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
Jam 3:18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

In light of all of that, what all composes what we’re to do in defending the faith?

(Gary) You again paint yourself into the VERY same spiritual corner. You CANNOT take these words apart from THE REST OF THE BOOK OR THE WORD AS A WHOLE.

James is addressing the CHURCH and their conduct towards EACH OTHER.

Want proof?? Glad you asked…….

Jam 3:1 ¶ My BRETHREN, be not many masters (teachers), knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
Jam 3:2 For in many things we offend all.

(Gary) Now…………who are his BRETHREN?? The church. And WHO do teachers teach?? The church. WHERE is this treatise shown to be a lecture on dealing with false teachers?? Nowhere. More proof?? Glad you asked again……

If this is a treatise on dealing with false teachers……….then Christ is guilty of sin, as is Paul and Peter, and Jude, etc,etc.

They ALL spoke offensive words to false teachers, didn’t they?? Why aren’t THEY wrong, as they clearly MUST be if this is a manual on dealing with false teachers??

Didn’t Jesus’ mouth send out sweet water AND bitter according to your interpretation?? And Paul, Peter, Jude, etc, etc.???

If I’m dealing with a brother…………..it absolutely must govern my conduct. When dealing with false teachers, if I follow the example of Scripture and I am sinning because of it……….not only must I be wrong, but those whose examples I follow must be as well.That’s a pretty problematic interpretation of yours given these facts.

(G2)Again, I read all of the verses you gave (many of which I myself know/support already and gave in stating what I agreed with you on concerning name-calling/stern words)… apart from the ones you highlighted, I also investigated all of other the verses (and their context) I gave for my defense, but I’m still struggling with how we are to reconcile that with what the Whole Word of God admonishes us to do! Are we not called to have Scripture be consistent with Scripture?

(Gary) Yes……..and I contend that you are NOT consistent. You make no distinctions based upon who the Scripture is speaking to, therefore you err. You take words directed toward the lost,believers,the misguided and anyone else you come across and use them for the false teacher.

If you would begin to properly determine WHO is being spoken to, you would be able to be consistent. The way you divide the Word, you have NO WAY of being consistent, because you think what applies to the lost or babes also applies to false teachers. Of course, the commands on how we are to address each of these classes of people are DIFFERENT, therefore you CANNOT be consistent since the Word seems to contradict itself.

It does not………it simply must be properly divided. There are no contradictions in Scripture. Just apparent contradictions that dissipate when following proper interpretive methodology.

(G2) Is it enough for us to consistent with one area (or even many areas) of the Word and yet be inconsistent with others? That’s where I’m coming from…I don’t just want to champion one aspect/area of the Lord and ignore others that are present and just as important (in regards to responding to those in error, it would seem appropriate to say that that the Book of Proverbs would be applicable since its principles do not mainly deal with how you treat a brother in Christ but people in general and how even those in error are nonetheless what the Word says: fools….people who will not acknowledge the Lord or the things He has clearly said when their error is corrected, as it was with Mr.El and others like him…Proverbs 1:7)

(Gary)I dealt with Proverbs above.

Even having righteous anger (a sure sign of spiritual vitality) about an issue/claim inconsistent with the character of God should never be considered responsible for or justification for being inconsistent in other areas/principles concerning His Word.

(Gary) I’m completely consistent. I deal with each according to how each person or situation is dealt with in Scripture. The way false teachers are dealt with is plainly evident, and you have yet to show from Scripture either our error or your correctness.

(G2)Does my desire to honor God/His Word in one area justify dishonoring what He has advocated in another in order to do so

(Gary) Again………you’re the one seeking to overlay a different and new paradigm upon dealing with false teachers, not us. We are entirely consistent with what Scripture plainly states and illustrates.You STILL have not come up with either a scenario in the Bible or a specific verse that upholds your view.

(G2)I’m more than teachable however, and willing/ready to dialogue further if interest remains….it’s quite enjoyable and helpful, for like the Word says, “As Iron sharpens Iron, so one man sharpens another” (Proverbs 27:17). Any thoughts still, Sir?

(Gary) Yes…………please, for the final time, defend your theory against my rebuttal.

1) Are the Scriptures you cited about “love” and grace directed to false teachers, or to believers?? And if NOT to false teachers (as I have shown), why do you apply them outside their context??

2) Have you used the Words of Christ and the other writers of Scripture INACCURATELY when you called us in error for our confrontational manner?? Especially considering the fact that Christ, Paul, and the others used the most derogatory words possible when confronted with false teachers??

3) Did Christ, Paul, James, John, Peter, the OT, etc, etc, ad infinitum, EVER use the approach you prefer in confronting false teachers?? If so, please cite these examples.

Unless you finally answer these questions, I’m finished with this dialogue. You said we should know when to quit. I do………and this is it.

Instead of dealing with these questions, you simply gloss over them as if they were never asked, and go merrily on your way. Unless that changes, the dialogue must continue without me.

I have no problem with your way of reaching out to false teachers. I only have a problem when you insist it is Biblical and that our methodology is not, despite the evidence.

(MN: G2, for the sake of brevity, and so we can get to the point, start your response with “Yes, the verses I cite are applicable to false teachers,” or “No, the verses I cited are not applicable to false teachers.” Don’t work your way up to it. Don’t preface it with a paragraph of qualifications. Don’t put forward any more “thought provoking questions”. And don’t drag out any more scripture. Just…answer…the…questions. Please. )

Posted by Melvin Jones on Sunday, December 17th, 2006 at 6:30 pm.