I hope, over the next four weeks, to keep up a constant reminder of the fact the T. Dexter (or Tricky D. as one reader has christened him) is going to performing at the First Baptist Church of Glenarden Watch Service and at the three-day revival at the DC Convention center.
But in the face of this, it’s nice to know that out of the thousands who are members at First Baptist Church of Glenarden, there are in fact some people, some real men, who are beginning to understand that T. Dexter is a fraud of tremendous proportions. Here’s a comment made by one of the readers. I tell you, it’s enough to warm the cockles of your heart! Oh, and see if any of you can explain why a relatively new Christian is able to see things the deacons and elders (guys who’ve been there for years) seem to have trouble seeing.
Well, I’m a member of FBCG (for now). In all honesty I have a very serious problem with Bishop Jakes being invited to the New Year’s revival. Each year I had to work this event, but this year was the last straw for me. I was sadden and angered on what was going on in the convention center. I told the people I was working with that night, “I’m gone” and I left midway through his speech.
I say speech because it sure as heck was not preaching or teaching. I just don’t understand why Pastor has to invite this guy every year, but I guess I do understand. It does not help that Pastor look to this guy as some sort of mentor. Yes, I was there when he said that and it turned my stomach.
I remember back in 2003(only been saved a little more than a 2 years) when I still didn’t know any better, I went to the Potter’s House one Sunday while vacationing in Dallas. I sat there and listened to the entire speech. I heard a lot of big words and fancy terms, but not much about Jesus or how to live a holy life within the parameters of God’s word. I actually left there feeling kind of empty. While everyone was running around, screaming and crying, I sat there confused trying to figure out what I missed and even went to my word trying to figure out how what he just said related to the text. I found no relation.
As I grow in my Christian walk I’m starting to see a lot of things that just are not right at FBCG. Having Jakes at this revival is just one of the many things. As much as I don’t want to leave, my wife and I may have to. I’m concerned that she may stay there, which really could split my house.
off topic…..
Rex, If you are who I think you are how did you get over here?
LOL!
Remember, the revival at the convention center starts on January 3, 2007. Get ready! Get Ready! Get ready!
It’s me. It’s good conversation here and I’ve learned a lot. It’s always good to listen to people who hold scripture in high regard.
Blessings Rex……….
I actually like that….”Tricky D”. Sounds like a prankster.
Trickay! boooy…….you sly guy Dexter! Ju almost got me dere!
I think that the reason this gentleman can see what “supposedly” experienced Christians can’t is because this person (from the sounds of it) it is going strictly by the Word of God and is lead of the Holy Spirit. He hasn’t had the time to become jaded and corrupted by bad company (ie; greedy pimps, etc) - thereby dulling his sense of discernment. Once you hang around no-good huxters and are constantly exposed to their ways, you start to wear down and begin to have a seared conscience. I thank God that this guy is not buying into the hype. This is refreshing and heartbreaking at the same time. It is refreshing becuase you have a relatively new believer who can see through all of the malarky that is going on. It is a bit heartbreaking because this an indictment of what is happening in many churches. It is also sad because I know how it feels to come to the realization that the church you are attending and the hierarchy therof have been deceiving you. I pray God’s strength for this man and his family because it takes courage and conviction to get out of a situation like that. In addition to leaving the familiarity of one’s surroundings, there is a real threat of being ostracized by those who either have not had a revalation yet or have had one but don’t have the courage or the sprit of obedience to act on it. May God help this gentleman and his family.
I used to be a fan of 50 cent before I got saved and he’s got this song called “God Gave Me Grace”. He’s basically talking about how he’s being ‘blessed by God’ through his CD sales. In the end he gives a shout-out to none other than T.D Jakes and Creflo Dollar.
Remember I said I wasn’t even saved when I first listened to the song,even though I didn’t know why, but I just knew there was something wrong with 50 giving a shout-out to people I thought were supposed to be of God. Now I know why; the reason is because these guys preach prosperity and money, so the likes of 50 are correct in thinking that they’re alright with God because they’re surely prosperous, according to the pimps’ definition of blessing and prosperity.
So, basically 50 sees himself as someone who is in line with T.D Jakes’ teachings(and who would blame 50 for thinking that way?)
Here’s some of the lyrics,
“you can’t convince me the Lord don’t love me
When my cds drop, they sell the best
You call it luck, why can’t it just be I’m blessed “
FYI - I live in New York where we get the Love Express, a monthly Christian Publication. Lo and behold there is a full page ad for this Service. I guess they will try and catch as many as they can.
(MN: They’re pulling people from as far away as New York? Lord have mercy. )
Melvin, think about TD Jakes, I think some one said “more anointed than the pope” in the Nations Capitol. This is as big as MegaSale.
Melvin, are you having a hard time getting over the blessings that God has bestowed upon FBCG? I think you have been gone long enough and its time to get involved with your own church.
I understand how you feel. But I do care about the poor creatures like you who are still stuck there. Besides, I’ve never been to the Potter’s House or Greater Grace Temple, or Fred Price’s place. Being gone doesn’t mean I forget about you!
Blessings on FBCG??!?!!? You’re kidding, right??
You’ve got a pastor up to his neck………no, make that up to YOUR neck……….in a $50,000,000 building project that SOMEBODY’s gonna have to foot the bill for.
In order to make the mortgage and keep paying customers…….er, SHEEP…… in the pews, your pastor is compromising the Gospel and the Trinity to hook up with TD (Trinity Denyin’) Jakes.
You will now be pressured relentlessly to GIVE GIVE GIVE to get that structure built, and keep it maintained. Just watch and see.
I wonder how many others who deny the essentials of the faith your pastor is going to subject you to when the budget gets tight??
Benny Hinn?? Reverend Moon?? Reverend Ike??Maybe Paula White can hook you up with The Donald??
Yeah………..you’re blessed alright. (imagine rolly-eye icon here LOL!!!!)
No, you wait and see! Get ready to eat your words!
More Drama….Get Ready, Get Ready, Get Ready!!! You don’t know how to twist the Word like I….so I shall talk you out of your last dollar, last dollar, last dollar!
More Drama wrote………
“No,you wait and see!”
My……..what a devastating retort. The only thing that could possibly have been more scathing would have been the classic, “I know you are, but what am I??”
Thank goodness you didn’t go THERE………….I don’t know how I could have recovered. You’re quite the wordsmith.
As far as “Eating my words” (are you working on a book of cliches, or are these just coming off the top of your head??), in order for that to happen the things I have mentioned would have to NOT come to pass, right??
Well Skippy…………everything I’ve mentioned has ALREADY happened.
Your pastor DOES have a $50,000,000 unfinished building……….correct?? Can’t eat my words there.
Your neck IS in the wringer as a congregation to PAY for that sucker, right??
Your pastor DOES have to find a way to make the mortgage……….I mean, the bank didn’t GIVE you the cash, right??
You don’t PRESENTLY have a $50,000,000 mortgage on the building you’re in, right?? So you’re telling us that the level of giving it takes to support your present building will be sufficient to pay for the new one?? Errrr….OK.
Get ready for the BIG PITCH my friend. They’re going to HAVE to squeeze you for cash like Tropicana squeezes oranges to keep up.
Now that he’s on the hook for mega-bucks, he HAS compromised the Gospel (and the sheeple) by bringing in Trinity Denyin’ Jakes, right??
A man who denies the Triune nature of the Godhead………….can’t find the solution to AIDS in the Bible……….. and runs the ministry like an Amway pyramid scheme to get $$$ (You DO realize that your pastor will likely wind up with not only a mortgage to pay, but have to pay Godfather Jakes a cut of the loot as well, right??)
Your pastor has already compromised the non-essentials of the Word to get in on the big bucks with Jakes. What makes you think it will STOP with Jakes??
No brother…………the best thing you could hear from Jakes this New Years Eve is “Sheeple……….Thou Art Loosed.”
I will invite you to the grand opening when the church is complete. By the way, how is your church doing? Let me stop before I crack myself up!
(MN: Forgot to answer the first time. The church is doing fine. About one hundred people attend regularly. About three years ago we had an “explosion” and a bunch of people left. However, the elders seem to have learned from it and we have recovered - not just in numbers, but in an understanding of how the elders should function.
The church is by no means perfect. Heck, anybody who would let me contribute to the functioning of their organization is suspect just on general principle.
And of course, they struggle with many of the same things other churches struggle with, things like how to encourage and enable the average pew warmer to live their faith; how to help the average PW to see the relationship between what the Bible says and what they do.
Why do you ask?< strong> )
I learned by watching a popular comic that you need some haters in your life so that you can strut your stuff, which propels you to aim higher! Thanks for being a hater! I love it!
Comment by more drama
2006-12-06 06:34:39
I learned by watching a popular comic that you need some haters in your life so that you can strut your stuff, which propels you to aim higher! Thanks for being a hater! I love it!
Wow, I dont even know about this church, and I’m like, if this is the kind of behavior they teach, they have a long way to go.
Last time I checked, a proud look was something “GOD HATES”, yet you say, strut your stuff, Can’t find that in scripture. The only reason I think you come here is you know what melvin is saying is right, and yet you can’t pull yourself up, cause you still waiting on God to give you your million dollars, that some no good evangelist promised, if you would get in his $100 line.
You know it’s the truth, yet you fight the truth, if your church is right, you dont have to defend it, cause God himself defends it, but the strut your stuff, and haters comments only lend to the “FACT” that the church and it’s teachings aint right.
binks
Hence…the moniker (More Drama) you are obviously an unlearned individual…..Hence…the lack of foresight obviously displays what you are being taught through (maybe) personal study, and fellowship…..it indicates that you are either a child, or young adolescent which is plausible…..or an extremely unlearned adult, with an inability to CURRENTLY (not to say that cannot change) understand what you are experiencing…….a direct reflection of your leadership….or LORDSHIP over your life.
Lets hope that you are a child, because if by any stance you claim maturity it may be the equivalent of a 21 year old in diapers.
They are cute at the age of 2 with the goo-goos and ga-gas…..but when an individual is 21….I don’t think one desires to change their diapers any longer…they should in fact not even be wearing them….this type of thing visually becomes rather obtruse.
I mean…….what would one have to gain by nursing spritual babies…..at a time when they should be full-grown?
Are we weaned from the bottle?
(Hebrews 5:12-14)
“For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need AGAIN for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and NOT solid food. For everyone who partakes of milk is NOT accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he IS an infant. But solid food IS for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.”
Sticks and stones!
Silver tongued devil…….did you think that up all by yourself??
What is your problem calling me a devil? You have some serious anger issues. I am surprised Melvin hasn’t said anything about that comment. I got a name for you, but I am better than that. Devil, ha, isn’t that the pot calling the kettle black. If I am a devil then what are you?
(MN: And the spirit of Pee Wee Herman descends on the discussion. )
He wasn’t calling you a devil, It’s a figure of speech like “Sly dog”. He was actually being sarcastic. “Silver tongued devil” generally speaks of someone who can use words in a convincing manner, with great eloquence.
LOL….(”I know you are, but what am I”?)oops! Jumped the gun there bub…..man….looks like someone is a bit uneasy there…..:lol:
Thanks for that Melvin. You see More Kool Aid, everyone else understood the glaringly obvious. I didn’t call you a devil (as in someone diabolic), and I don’t have anger issues.
I DO have issues with folks who pop into this site and, rather than addressing the Scriptural issues with their Pimp-O-Choice, simply lash out with inanities and cliches.
We would be happy to engage in a discussion with you, as long as you can move beyond the “Sticks and Stones”, “Haters”, and “Eat Your Words” pablum.
Just Couldn’t help it…
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it agai,, but again I had to write to say how much this site blesses me. Additionally, in connection with my previous post, I wanted to clarify that I wrote because as powerful/informing this site is, I didn’t think it would be a good thing to have so much space given to those who are not hungry for the truth but want to be seen while those who are desperate have to sit/deal with it. Again, just trying to encourage ya’ll to do not entrust holy teachings and the valuable pearls of your time/energy or even holy teachings to those who don’t care…it’d be shame to see ya’ll continue trying to “teach holy concepts to people who don’t want to listen and will only tear apart what we say.” As the old saying goes, “The Man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still”, and better to feed a child desperate/starving than one satisfied/complacent, merely wanting sympathy/attention but neverdesiring change. Why have food spilled over yoursevles in trying to feed those who’ll throw back up what you’ve given? Not at all saying that unbelievers should stop having the Word given to them, but we are called to be “wise and discerning in what we teach to whom, so that we would not be wasting our time”, as Jesus called us to do in Matthew 7:6:
6″Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.
Though few in number, It’s a blessing that ya’ll are apart of those seeking to walk the “narrow road to life” instead of the crowed highway to hell (Matthew 7:13-14) and again I’m glad to see ya’ll encouraging others to do more of the same. Again, ya’ll rock, alright?!!!Blessings
GaryV did you attend FBCG?
Nope………didn’t attend Jonestown either. Doesn’t mean I can’t point out when Jim Jones compromised the Gospel, doesn’t mena I can’t point out when your pastor does it either.
You DO NOT allow anyone who denies the essentials of the faith to man the pulpit. Period. Not even if it means paying off a $50,000,000 mortgage. Why is this so hard for you to grasp??
I am not going to fuss with a non-member who doesn’t know what they are talking about. See ya in Mitcheville!
(MN: Actually , it’s Kettering.)
paisano, i’m glad you weren’t at jonestown either cause then we wouldn’t have the pleasure of knowing you. (smile)
btw, are you purposely exaggerating the amount of money for the mortgage at fbcg? when u said $50,000,000. is it actually FIFTY MILLION DOLLARS?!?!?!? before i go any further please, pleeeeeezze, tell me this is one of your jokes.
if you are just throwing out this figure for emphasis- let me know.
(MN: I’m not sure of how much they will have to finance when all is said and done, but the cost of the building, as of about five months ago, is FIFTY MILLION DOLLARS. I’ll probably be taking another picture of the building in a couple of days. )
More Drama, that’s specifically the sort of ignorance that keeps pimps empowered. What does my proximity to your church have to do with the violation of Scripture by your pastor??
What have I said that’s inaccurate?? Nothing………..it seems I have a better understanding of the situation from here than you have right there in the belly of the beast.
Well………now that I’ve gotten to know some of the FB sheeple first-hand, it’s clear that your pastor needn’t worry about the mortgage, or trotting out more heretics. You’ll pay………some folks LOVE to be fleeced.
In keeping with my tradition of handing out nicknames, I hereby strip More Drama of his previous name……….
I now dub thee………
More KoolAid.
Oh, BTW More KoolAid………..the old dodge you used “You don’t go there, so I’m not gonna answer you” is pure evasion.
You don’t answer because you CAN’T, Skippy.
More drama please note scripture
Proverbs 17:15
Proverbs 17:15 (New King James Version)
15 He who justifies the wicked, and he who condemns the just,
Both of them alike are an abomination to the LORD.
binks
To Al !!!
The comments were closed where you addressed your last post to me, so I thought I’d expand a bit where the forum was still open.
On the issue of brotherly love being extended where disagreement is encountered on non-essentials, I agree with you entirely.
Where I disagree is in categorizing Mr Potts’ errors as “non-essential” for the reasons I cited in my first response to your kind post.
Actually, you and I have disagreed recently about the apostolic ministry. Since that is indeed a non-essential, we were able to express our differing views and continue our fellowship.
I didn’t press you, or certainly push you, on the issue. That’s because firstly, we don’t (and won’t) always agree on the peripherals of the Faith.I have no problem with that at all.
And, secondly,I know that you are grounded in the Word and in the essentials. I reacted differently to Mr Potts because the situation was completely reversed from the disagreement you and I had.
You are a brother…… Mr Potts is a danger according to Paul, Luke, Jude and others.
Melvin, forgive me for changing the subject but I am truly concerned with recent events.
Did anyone hear about Rick Warren having Barack Obama over at his church this past weekend? It was concerning the AIDS crisis. Obama is a strong supporter of abortion and for Warren to have a common bond with him over the AIDS issue is truly not of God. Their theme is “We must work together”. No, I strongly disagree, especially if you’re compromising your beliefs to help solve an earthly issue.
(MN: So tell me again why this would surprise you? )
Melvin, it doesn’t. But it’s just amazing how fast things are falling apart, one after the other.
I went to this event last year and I didn’t leave soon enough. I sat through the entire service. Jakes opened his sermon settled by given some good New Years advice and then about 20 minutes into his preaching the performance begin. I’m not into the turn to your neighbor thing or jumping in the aisles (and there was a lot of that going on). I wonder if the person sitting on my left, right, front and back thought I wasn’t saved because I wouldn’t respond with the high five your neighbor thing.
The one question I have is if the host pastors (Jenkins is not the only host pastor) doesn’t share the same beliefs with the guest preacher then (2 John 1:9-11) why would you invite him???
Melvin, and Melvin only, please don’t reply GaryV! Is there any large mega church that you like? I mean anything big; like buildings, membership, or money seems to pose a problem for you. What is your church membership size? Just want to make a comparrison because alot of my friends hate large churches, but they can’t give me any valid reasons why!
MD,
I’m not against megachurches in general, though I do think there is very little reason for them to exist.
In general, it’s not the megachurch I object to. It’s the tactics used by the pastors I write about, including pimps who don’t even have a church.
With respect to MCs I like: Here’s the catch - if the pastor of the church is doing his job, preaching the gospel and training the congregation, I’m not going to hear about the church in terms of how large it is, or how anointed the pastor is, or any of the vanities we generally hear about the pimps and pimpettes. I won’t even know it’s a large church.
For example, if you go to the average pimp’s site you will read something like the following:
“Rev. I. B. Faken is a dynamic preacher who has taken the First Church of Sunday Happenings from 30 members in 1987 to over 30,000 today. He presides over more than fifty ministries, is CEO of the Churchin’ Academy, and is a speaker in demand from South Africa to Norway….”
I’ve talked about this before, but if I were “running” a church, the process would be very different than what we normally see.
Most of the Megachurches are really built around a single individual and on the force of personality of the person. I, would choose several men and disciple them, train them to fill in for me. This means that sometimes they preach, they visit the sick, they do counseling too. The pastor’s primary job is pastoring and discipling men to take on leadership roles in the church, not traveling around the country and the world on speaking engagements.
As the church grows, if the church grows, say to four hundred folks or so, we would split, and I would send one or more of the men off with a hundred or so of the congregation to start a church in another neighborhood. It shouldn’t be a problem getting people to leave because I tried to make sure it wasn’t bout me to begin with.
Those churches, because they are run by men trained by me, will certainly be similar. If through God’s providence (a littel reformed lingo there) the churches they are responsible for grow, they would be following the same general pattern.
As often as The Melvinite Temple of Praise and Good Times grew past, say four hundred, the church would split, sending another group into the community.
By doing this, the people, the “members” are reminded again and again that they are the church and they are to make a difference in the community. Christianity becomes personal and yes, expensive - as it should be.
Remember - big buildings, big memberships don’t have to be bad. It depends on what the leadership does with it. FBCG, World Changers, The Potter’s House and others are very similar to each other and have all of the characteristics that bring them to the attention of this site.
Did my response clarify anything?
Agreed wholeheartedly Melvin. Each one reach one. Would that make you “apostle” Melvin? Just kidding.
Just make sure you use the little “a” when you spell that……..LOL!!!
Dear Melvin:
You stated a very powerful, and I believe, Biblical paradigm as to how the church should function! Your philosophy of starting new churches are in sync with the Southern Baptist Convention, and I can tell you from personal experience that the new churches that are planted with that view usually grows.
When people see others already in place and doing ministry, they are more apt to join and unite with that body of believers rather than trying to grow a church with 3-5 people.
Melvin, of course I’m not the Holy Spirit, but after reading your posts and getting some sense of your heart for God and for His people, you just might have a “special” calling on your life to lead people…..even if its not neccessarily to the senior pastor.
Blessings!
BT
BT & MN: All in agreement w/BT’s last paragraph about MN’s heart for God and for His people, say “AYE!” As God is my witness, this spirit is desperately needed in the “peach state.”
AYE!!!!! (I feel like a pirate now.)
hi again bt, in reference to your comment to mel, exactly what is the role of a senior pastor? is this office even Scriptural? seems that title promotes a hierarchy.
blessings&peace 2u
Thanks, man of God! Even a child could understand this. The mega pimps/pimpettes could too, if they wanted to. However, this would spoil their personal agendas—not all, but about 95% of them—have one, and those pieces are a SIGN; i.e., Stench In God’s Nostrils!!!!!
Melvin, I couldn’t have articulated that as perfectly if I had 1000 years to try.
I’m throwing off TD Jakes and making YOU my mentor!!!
You didn’t answer my question about your church size.
An oversight. I have attached the information to one of your previous comments.
Melvin great response, I attend a large church here in Kansas City, and my pastor “NEVER” sits at a throne on the podium, he is sitting amongst the congregation during worship, and is standing, and singing along with the rest of us. If I wanted to, I could walk right up to him, and say hello, ask him a question, or just shake his hand, Try that at Creflo’s church.
NO ONE sits on the podium, there aren’t even any chairs up there. He steps up there to share the gospel, and sits down. His name is Jeff, not “the right reverand” not hung up on titles, I can walk right up to him, and say hey Jeff, and he say’s hey back.
They never point out how great he is even though he in my opinion is a very good man, NO PASTORS AND WIFE’S ANNIVERSARIES each year, but we do have our missionaries back once a year for an entire week, and we shower them with things they dont ordinarily get being in foreign countries. Each year they share with the entire congregation where the money goes, how it is spent, and the majority goes to the mission fields. No Rolls Royce in the drive, he doesnt even own a parking spot with that familiar sign, “Reserved for the Pastor” yet he still loves each of us even though we don’t treat him like he is God each sunday.
I totally agree with your post, and I also state that there are some churches with large congregations that are doing things God’s way.
binks
Man binks…………that’s beautiful. I love your pastor, and I’ve never even met him!!!!!!
Melvin: As long as a man is the central figure (and you will be) the spirit of God will not descend upon the person (this has nothing to do with Christ being “the head of my life thing”)
Man can only disciple so far, the teacher must decrease so that the Spirit can increase, (why can’t we understand this). Christ had to go or the Spirit of truth would not come. We play the role of Teacherlike Christ, But their comes a point when the child must move on to the next level in order to mature, that level I believe can only be reached under the tutelage of the Holy Spirit, not the Holy Spirit in you but the Spirit of Truth that knows the mind of God and will deal with the disciples issues as only the Spirit of God can. Do you really think that you can successfully decibel hundred’s of people and then split it up, your four hundred won’t have it. Israel said “give us a king like the other nations” this was a people being lead by God also. Do not be fooled you will fall into the same trap that the flesh laid and snared the pimp’s with (power). Make disciple of men, in turn they will make disciple of men, that will be answerable only to the Spirit of Truth the word of God.
The true mega-Church of God is the assembly of believers that are under the direction of the Holy Spirit, the progenitor of truth. This is were the true believers dwell, men woman and child that have been given truth through their Interaction with the Spirit of Truth, not that any man should teach you. All we have today are man teaching man, titles and degree are all were focused on, are we any different then the Jew’s of Christ’s day? Have we learned nothing from their example? We need to go were our lord is. Since he does not dwell in a house made out of our own hands, (by that I mean, our interpretation, our tenets of faith, our pastor or first lady, NIV, KJV, and so on) we must travel inside were the kingdom of heaven dwells, he has left the building. Paul said that all he had learned under his “pastor” He counted as do-do, truth and do-do cannot occupy the same space so he submitted himself to truth by the Spirit of God. Question: who decibeled Paul? And can we be decibeled the same way? And if so ” who has bewitched us”?
Michael, the formula you just laid out for “maturing” in faith is a potent formula for deception. Every cult got it’s start the same way you just described.
They got a “revelation” from a “spirit” whose authenticity was not verifiable via the Word Of God.
“No”, they tell their followers, “We’ve moved beyond the Bible. It can only take you so far. We must submit ourselves to the Spirit, and follow HIS voice. The Bible is for babies in Christ……….the Spirit is for the mature.”
Of course, since the revelation is beyond the supposed “playpen” that they consider the Bible to be, there is NO OBJECTIVE STANDARD to which the “spirit’s” leading can be checked.
You never move past the Bible brother………NEVER.
How do you TEST whether the spirit is from God without an OBJECTIVE standard of revealed Truth?? Do you test it by a “feeling”??An inward witness?? What if your lack of understanding, or sin, keeps you from hearing the voice of God clearly??
How come some folks who profess Christ follow Rev Moon?? If you ask them, they will tell you it bore witness with their spirit. Mormons do the same, referring to a “burning in the bosum” as their inward witness of the spirit. Sadly, all they had to do was refer to Scripture and they would have resisted entanglement in error.
The Holy Spirit authored Scripture……….following Scripture IS following Him, and it serves as the standard for determining whether any revelation originated from Him, since He cannot contradict Himself.
Now how are we told in the Word to mark those that cause division and offenses (errors)?? By the Word. No mention of “Until you are mature, then just use the Spirit.”
No mention of shifting focus onto the Spirit and moving beyond the Word.
Notice that the elders (spiritually mature) are to be honored for laboring in the Word and DOCTRINE. Why no mention of the mature giving way to the Spirit rather than continuing to labor in the Word??
You wrote:
2006-12-07 11:24:21
The true mega-Church of God is the assembly of believers that are under the direction of the Holy Spirit, the progenitor of truth. This is were the true believers dwell, men woman and child that have been given truth through their Interaction with the Spirit of Truth, not that any man should teach you.
(Gary) Gobbledygook! Tell me, how do you discern whether the spirit you interact with is THE Spirit, or a seducing spirit?? Only by comparing what is revealed to the Word.
(Michael) All we have today are man teaching man, titles and degree are all were focused on, are we any different then the Jew’s of Christ’s day? Have we learned nothing from their example? We need to go were our lord is. (MN: Care to tell me why God appointed some as teachers? )
(Gary) I thought He was present wherever 2 or 3 were come together in His Name. And, hasn’t the Bible told us that God “hast magnified thy word above all thy name.” So, gathering in His Name does not mean we are secure in revelation unless His Word is magnified.
(Michael) Since he does not dwell in a house made out of our own hands, (by that I mean, our interpretation, our tenets of faith, our pastor or first lady, NIV, KJV, and so on)
(Gary) Please be so kind as to show us where you came up with THAT interpretation for this verse. It may well have come from the “spirit” you follow, but if you had checked it against the Bible, you would have seen your error. The House made with hands is the Word, huh?? Well, the WORD says that all Scripture is GOD BREATHED, literally EXHALED by God. How is it now MAN’S creation?? Already we’re seeing the dangers associated with following your methodology of “maturing”.
(Michael) we must travel inside were the kingdom of heaven dwells, he has left the building. Paul said that all he had learned under his “pastor” He counted as do-do,
(Gary) NO! WRONG! Paul is speaking about the traditions he learned. HE IS NOT CALLING THE WORD EXCREMENT. (MN: In fact, he’s talking about all the stuff he learned before he bacame a Christian and got hooked up with the body of believers in Antioch for 14 years.< strong> )
(Michael)truth and do-do cannot occupy the same space so he submitted himself to truth by the Spirit of God.
(Gary) God forgive you for making the correlation of God’s word with crap. God forgive you.
(Michael)Question: who discipled Paul? And can we be decipled the same way? And if so ” who has bewitched us”?
(Gary) Are YOU Paul?? Are we taking handkerchiefs off of YOUR body to bring healing??Are YOU raising the dead?? Have YOU seen the risen Lord?? Are YOU an Apostle??
If you can answer “yes” to these questions, you can be discipled as Paul was. But somehow, I doubt it.
Ladies and gentlemen, see how quickly one can go FAR afield into error by this teaching. Flee it. Cling to the Word and doctrine.
A Word to Michael:
Michael, do you know how to interpret Scripture? Have you ever had a course in Hermeneutics=The art and science of biblical interpretation??
From many of the Scripture you quoted to Gary V, it clearly shows that you’re lacking in understanding this all important skill.
For example, you quoted the Scripture in Matthew 18, in the wrong context, thus you arrive at the wrong meaning of the text.
That phrase, “Where there are two or three among you, there will I be also” is not what you and the countless of others think it means.
First, it does NOT mean that Jesus is saying that if there are 2 or 3 persons together in worship, He will be in their midst.
It is important that you and others note the CONTEXT of these words. The context is CHURCH DISCIPLINE, NOT Worship!
At this point, you haven’t asked me what that passage is really saying, therefore, I simply wanted to inform you of what it is NOT saying. Now, should you want to know what this particular text is teaching, then let me know!
Blessings,
BT
Hi BT!!
Sometimes the format gets confusing in a long post. I quoted that verse to Michael, but not in the context you describe. He was asserting that a group of believers together led by the Spirit is all that is necessary. I was attempting to demonstrate that a gathering in His Name is not sufficient, since God Himself has elevated His Word even above His Name. Therefore, there is NO POSSIBILITY that a gathering of believers led by the Spirit but not sitting under the Word is proper.
Sorry for the confusion………
I would like some exposition from those more full of the Word than I. Question, is it Biblical to ask God for my purpose?
It’s rather more correct to ask Him to fulfill HIS purposes in you.
We have become extremely man-centered in our practical theology.
If you simply immerse yourself in the Word and prayer, walk according to the knowledge you have, and serve Him and the family of God in the way the Bible has already made clear………….He will fulfill His purposes through you.
God is sovereign……….just serve Him, and He will work His ultimate will in your life. You won’t have to give it a thought.
Luke 11:1-13
Thank you so much Mr. GaryV.
paisano, i think you took micheal samuels’ post out of context. i reread it, and i don’t see where he he saying people need to follow a spirit, but rather the Spirit of God. And i don’t see him comparing the Word of God w/ do-do, it looks to me as if he was saying that what Paul learned for himself thru the Word of God far surpassed whatever he learned from his human teacher, not the way you put it. your last statement sounds misleading. you’re using MS as an object lesson of someone who has gone far off into error- and i just dont see that in his post.
blessings&peace 2u
God I hope so………..I asked him that question, but he has yet to answer. Actually, I asked Mel to hold back that post until I was sure I was hearing what I thought I was hearing, but apparently the email wasn’t read before the comment was posted. Still waiting for clarification, cuz what he wrote sounds scary.
For example, this bit
(Michael) Since he does not dwell in a house made out of our own hands, (by that I mean, our interpretation, our tenets of faith, our pastor or first lady, NIV, KJV, and so on)
Where he derives this interpretation is beyond me. Not to mention beyond Scripture.
(Michael)we must travel inside were the kingdom of heaven dwells, he has left the building.
Jesus cannot be found in buildings now?? And what is this “travelling inside”?? Inward witness ALONE??? Without the 2 or 3 witnesses that the Word and Godly teachers can provide??
And to say that Paul rejected EVERYTHING he was taught is incorrect. He rejected the traditions, the titles, the means to boast. But he also learned the Word at the feet of Gamaliel………so Paul clearly did NOT reject everything, because it was THAT Word that Christ quickened within him. Yet, it’s all called crap.
Another revelation that’s oddly unaddressed in Scripture……
“We play the role of Teacherlike Christ, But their comes a point when the child must move on to the next level in order to mature, that level I believe can only be reached under the tutelage of the Holy Spirit, not the Holy Spirit in you but the Spirit of Truth that knows the mind of God and will deal with the disciples issues as only the Spirit of God can.”
If I’m not mistaken, the Holy Spirit DIRECTED some in the church to have the role of teacher. At what point does one become unaccountable to ANYONE but God?? Is this the model we’re presented in the New Testament??
Well, I fail to see how this can be true, since Paul presented himself to the Jerusalem Council. He remained answerable to “men”, right??
And let’s not forget that Paul spent YEARS in the church at Antioch………in a building. And found Christ present there, obviously.
And this……..
(Michael)Melvin: As long as a man is the central figure (and you will be) the spirit of God will not descend upon the person (this has nothing to do with Christ being “the head of my life thing”)
Well, the same Holy Spirit that Michael seems so dependent upon is the same Holy Spirit that ORDAINED the church structure with the 5 fold ministry ,and has yet to rescind it. So WHY again will the Holy Spirit NOT descend upon folks operating within the structure He set up??
I agree you don’t have to be bundled in a building, but that is not among the points of contention.
Suffice it to say, I have many problems with what he presented. If clarification will clear it all up, fine. But as it stands………it’s problematic (as Melvin and BT attest as well).
Hoping for clarification……….because this is almost classic Quaker doctrine.
Amen! I have never heard of that concept before, and I think that it exhibits much Godly wisdom. We used to be members of a megachurch, and we left for many of the reasons that you have described. We support what the Lord has you doing on this site, and pray that He continues to give you Godly wisdom and discernment.
Melvin, I must admit your concept is how it should be to the tee (think’g golf). However of course they mega pastor’s are fearful that by training and sending men of God out to continue ministry that almightly dollar$$$$$ will decrease, period
To Melvin and Co. (i.e. anyone else besides him),
This may be a bit of a subject change, but then again I think that my question is relevant to what may be taking place at First Baptist Church of Glenarden Watch Service, as well as other churches who seem to be doing the same thing on one level or another. I am not certain as to whether or not someone on this site adressed this question (if so, would someone please direct me to the argument?) but I was curious as to what your thoughts are concerning working with people not of the faith (i.e. a Muslim or Buddist, or a Jehova’s Witness for example).
Specifically, what to make of situations where one’s job doesn’t require him or her to work alongside someone but yet they are still willing to do community service things like feeding the homeless or rasiing money/starting a fundraiser to helping abused children or even being active in a social/moral issue that the Lord is big on (i.e. the evil of abortion, standing against the push of accepted homosexuality and any other unatural sexual orientation while seeking to provide resources/help for those who struggle with it, etc, domestic violence, applying godly/practical/wise principles for living a healthy lifestlye like manageing finances correctly or couseling troubled youths or watching one’s health and other wise points that can help individuals in everyday life) where both of you agree on something in line with the heart/Word of the Lord while differing on every other point of belief on how to handle it? Being a Human Services Major in at my college, this is an issue that seems to come up continually and I have wrestled with for some time, and it may be one for others seeking to join the field. I see where you’re coming from, Mr.Melvin, with the situation at your church with Mr. Jakes and other instances in Scripture which say to avoid a person claiming the name/fame of Christ but denying conforming to His nature (1 Corinthians 5), but what to make of someone who doesn’t even claim allegaiance to the Lord but still seeks to do moral things and genuinely is conerned with helping those in need? Furthermore, what to make of the various situations throughout Scripture that seem to indicate that those who followed the Lord were often required to work in environments that were not to their liking or, even though they were’nt explicitly evil, often involved things that were contrary to what glorified the Lord fully? (For example, what to make of Namam’s situation and how he was required to hold the arm of hismaster while his master bowed to a pagan idol, even though the Word seems to indicate that he apparently became a believer in the Lord at one point…II Kings 5:1-27 …or individuals like Nehemiah being a cupbearer to a pagan king or Daniel having to study/be immersed in all of the knowledge/magic arts of the Babylonians…Nehemiah 1:1-11 and Daniel 1:1-20…or even the Roman Centurion who had faith in Jesus but still had to work in the Roman Army, which at many various times did cruel things like oppressing people and did/believed many things contrary to what a Christaisn should act like…Matthew 8:5-13, etc…if it comes off as if I’m trying to take things out of context, I greatly apologize and ask for people to please point out anything I may’ve missed cause I really am trying to rightly divide this Word like we should…II Timothy 2:14-17). Again, Should we avoid working with unbelievers at all levels altogether like the Word seems to advocate that we do to others who rebel against the Lord openly like Jakes and others?
Even if doing so gave one the opportunity to truly show some form of love/compassion and to witness and let their light shine (Matthew 5:14-16) and so that others could see that Christians were actively involved in/genuinely concerned with the community around them, would it be acceptable? Even in light of how as Christians we’re called to love our enemies (which unbelievers can be considered, since they are not submitted to the Lord and, as Jesus said in Matthew 12:30, those that are not for Him are against Him) and not merely those who love us in return or are of our fellowship (Luke 6:27-36), what to make of it? Again, do ya’ll think that it’s right or wrong, and whatever side you choose, why do think so?
I already gone to the Word and , from what I’ve read, have a great deal of what my thoughts on the issue, but I really wanted to see what you or others thought as well…that, and I really wanted a discussion on the topic so I could get sharpened up a bit and have more clarity on the issue. What do you think?
Hi G2…………..nothing wrong at all with working with someone of a different faith, unless doing so puts you in a position where you have to compromise Christ.
But working WITH someone not of the Faith and PARTNERING with someone not of the Faith are two different things.
Then the Scriptures against being unequally yoked together with unbelievers comes into play.
I can work at a food bank or homeless shelter with a Mormon…………I cannot PARTNER with a Mormon to start a ministry doing so.
The image the Lord was trying to convey with the yoke is the inability for either oxen to follow his own path. By necessity, one cannot turn without the other. If your path is to ultimately present Christ, the Mormon isn’t going to allow you to turn that way, and vice versa. It’s an irreconcilable internal struggle that renders each powerless to follow thier own path. The result must be compromise.
Greatly appreciate your responses, Mr.Gary V. By the way, it blesses me a ton to see how you seek to correctly use the Word of God to back up all of your arguments. Again, appreaciate it greatly…
I had a question about your statement regarding working with people not of the faith:
“I can work at a food bank or homeless shelter with a Mormon…………I cannot PARTNER with a Mormon to start a ministry doing so.
The image the Lord was trying to convey with the yoke is the inability for either oxen to follow his own path. By necessity, one cannot turn without the other. If your path is to ultimately present Christ, the Mormon isn’t going to allow you to turn that way, and vice versa. It’s an irreconcilable internal struggle that renders each powerless to follow thier own path. The result must be compromise.”
Not at all trying to ignore what you stated (again, I greatly appreciated it and learned from it), but curious, where does one draw the line with the statement you made? Can one even clearly do so at all? Regarding your statement, would you (and anyone else, for that matter) mind expounding on the subject for that matter as to what the difference is between working with someone to produce something and parterning with someone is to produce something?
It would seem that in both, regardless of the form, that I’m producing the same work regardless and having to set aside/compromise some values of to work together under the same label.
For example, even if I decided not to go into ministry with a Mormon and compromise in order to go the same direction since our directions are contrary to what we believe, it would seem that, even in being silent and stating that I was not in aggreement with the Mormon but was willing to work in the same store as him, I’d be doing a disservice to the Lord. To the average passer-by or someone who didn’t know any better, it would seem that my silence would serve to give credibility to the actions of the Mormon since we’re still working together to produce the same of work (feeding homeless people) that would’ve been accomplished had I simply joined into a ministry with Him.
If that analogy does not make sense, then what to make of a Human Service Worker having to work in a counseling department where he or she is able to preach Christ (with limitations/permission, nowadays seeing how that’s how it is in many sectors) and how he can deliever people from sexual sin and yet has to work alongside a person who opelnly condones homosexuality, counsels people with deceptive counsel and denies that Jesus is the “Way, Truth, and Life” to their clients? To all who see the company it would seem that, even though the Christian doesn’t agree with others of differing faiths, people would still be getting the impression that the Christian was in league with that company since the company name is recieving credit for everything that takes place? It be like being in an army that was known for opressing people and doing deeds of injustice, as it was for many soldiers in the Roman Empire were Christian and did not agree with many of the ways the other soldiers of and even Rome went about doing things. For them to say, “I not in agreement with the way this army/nation goes about handling things, but since I’m a citizen and and have to work here, I’ll do it anyway.” To all those around, those soldiers would still be indirectly considered as part of entire Roman Army and in some way or another, because they would still choose to pay taxes to it and support it by working alongside those who were for it, would not be effectivelly standing against it or giving the impression that they were doing so.
Going back to your analogy of working in a store alongside a Mormon, even if that store wasn’t explicity taking a stand against Christianity, it would be making a stand agaist it by not takinig one, giving offf the impression that Jesus is merely one faith among many and no different/consequential that all others, and in a sense that could be considered a compromise seeing how Christianity requires us to take a stand as the only way to go and to make it known to those who see. I hope I’m making sense in what I’m trying to convey…
Perhaps my logic is a bit off or I may be missing something, but if you wouldn’t mind, would you (and any others, for that matter..) mind expounding more from the Word on what it means to work with someone and partner with someone and what it means practically in everyday life? Any further thoughts on the subject that could help a brotha out?
And for that matter, seeing that the topic connects to wider range of subjects other than this, any thoughts on what to make of smaller differing issues such as paying taxes and patrotism/loyalty to one’s country? Contrary to many folks in the U.S.A who refuse to pay their bills and still claim a “breakthough” of some sort, Jeus Himself paid His taxes and He/The Bible exhorted us to do so as well…highlighting the importance that we have legitimate obligations to both God and the governnment , even though our obligations to God must excede them all and we must choose God first when they conflict (Luke 20:20-26). I understand that, apart from situations doing so would put us in a situation where we would have to compromise Christ like denying Jesus Christ as Lord or denying the convictions of the Word, we’re called to submit to governing authorities since the Lord established them and we benefit from many of their services like protection/shelter, etc (Romans 13:1-7).
However, what to make of the fact that many of the taxes we’re required to pay seem to go to support many things that the Lord hates (abortion, for one, and sex-education programs that promote safe sex rather than sexual purity/abstinece, etc). Even though a Christian may not directly support these things and much of the funds given to the government support good things, the fact remains that many by paying regardless continue to support something indirectly that offends the heart of God. Would we not be guilty nonetheless of compromising Christ?Would it be right or wrong for Christians to stop paying taxes/take a stand on things that are contrary to what the Lord loves, or shoud we continue to pay taxes and support our nation at all times while we indirectly encourage immoralty with out resources (i.e. the mentality that because I don’t like doing something, that makes it okay to continue to do it or the mentality that it’s better to choose the lesser of two evils, even though the lesser one is still evil/counter-productive.)?
What is it okay to take a stand on and when? Is seeking to be spotless of supporting evil/wrongdoing innocent in all ways, be it directly or indirectly, being an effective Christian or an ineffective one? How does one go about effectively being in the world but not of it while carrying out Christ’s command to spread His message and make disciples( Matthew 28:16-20 and 1 Corinthians 5:9-10)? Can we do so in a way in whic