Before we get too far along in this discussion , a few statements to get us going:

1. The Bible is the final authority in establishing orthodox Christian doctrine
2. My ability to explain the mechanics of what the Bible says is not an indicator of the truth of the Bible’s statements.
3. My ability to understand the mechanics of what the Bible says is not an inhibitor of my ability to understand what the Bible says
4. Orthodox Christians do not worship a three-headed god
5. Orthodox Christians do not worship three gods
6. Orthodox Christians do not have trouble counting past one

The first point is very important. Here, let me say that again. The first point is very important in any discussion we can have about virtually any doctrine held by Orthodox Christians. If I and someone I disagree with do not agree on the Bible’s authority, any debate on other doctrinal issues (and the authority of the Bible is a doctrinal issue) will be a complete waste of time since we will be using two different and mutually exclusive standards. I will be using my best understanding of the Bible and the other person, no matter how sincere, will be using their own wisdom, their own idea of what seems right to them. We will not come to the same conclusions.

Given that this will be written from the perspective of the absolute authority of Scripture, I will insist that responses to this post be couched in terms of what the Bible says. Responses such as “Well that doesn’t make sense, so it must be wrong!” will not be allowed. I will post one or two, but only to demonstrate that people don’t listen.

I don’t have to understand how something works in order for it to be true. I don’t understand how an automatic transmission works, but obviously it works whether I understand or not. I don’t understand how gravity works. But I’m not about to step off of a tall building since I don’t want to smash into the ground.

I do understand the concept of gravity. And I understand the concept of an automatic transmission. Again, understanding the concept does not require me to understand the mechanics. So the first question we should ask is: Does the Bible address the concept of the Trinity? And of course, my response is “Yes.” Let’s step through some scripture to see if I am just imagining or what.

The first and perhaps basic Scripture used to promote the idea of the Trinity is John 1:1,2 which says:

in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.

The Word, clearly identified later in the chapter, as the Jesus Christ, is said to be “with” God. “With”, or course, indicates the existence of two or more of something. There cannot be a “with” relationship unless there are at least two entities. If I dined alone last night, I cannot also say that I dined with someone. And notice that the Word was with God even at the beginning. In other words, the Word is eternal just like the entity He was with.

In that same chapter, John also says

No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

Again, the discussion speaks of two entities , the first explains the first. And the first is in the bosom of the second. Again, there is the indication that there are at least two entities interacting in some way with each other.

Whether I understand how this works or not (and I don’t), clearly there are two entities.

But let’s continue. Matthew, in the gospel by the same name, says in 11:27:

“All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

Again we see a relationship between two entities , the Son and the Father. One handed something to the other. One knows the other. Whether I understand how the relationship works, the fact is that the Bible speaks of at least two entities.

2 John 10 again makes a distinction between two persons. It says:

Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching he has both the Father and the Son.

Notice what it says , he - the orthodox believer , has both the Father and the Son. Again there is a differentiation of persons. There is the Father and there is the Son. And at the beginning of this verse there is God.

Finally, there is the “famous” verse that any tyro Christian worth his salt should know:

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son…

Notice that again there is the idea of two entities , the one who gives and the one who is given, the Father and the Son. Unless I am willing to go through considerable linguistic and logical gymnastics, it’s really difficult to understand this as implying anything other than two persons or entities. My understanding of how this can work is non-existent. And at this point there is no effort to make this understood. At this point, I am only looking at what the Bible actually says and what we can conclude from it.

While there are more, the few verses I have laid out clearly imply and at times state that there are two persons involved. And these verses don’t allow for such “flexibility” in logic that would say that it’s the same person operating in different modes. That doesn’t work, at all.

There are also many verses speaking of the Holy Spirit as being separate from the Father and the Son. I’ll only provide one in this discussion. In 1 Cor 2:10, which says:

For to us God revealed {them} through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.

Again we see the separation of persons. That is, one entity , the father - accomplished something through a second entity , the Spirit. The second searches the depths of the first. Again, the idea of two separate entities or persons drips from this phrase.
Whatever we may want to argue, the text indicates a relationship between two entities or personalities.

Before you Oneness Weenies start howling too loudly, let’s look at the other side and some of the verses you use to deny the Trinity.
Moses made a great statement is Deuteronomy 6:2 when he said:

Hear o Israel, the Lord our God is one.

Even Jesus, in Mark 12:29 says:

Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD;

Moses and Jesus clearly state that the Lord our God is one.
Now we have a problem. In one place in the Bible, we see that God is one. In another place we see that there are separate persons. Before we fold into ourselves in a knot of contradictions, perhaps we can see what the tensions are.

Let’s take a look at a couple of things. Not meaning to sound too much like a politician, perhaps we can look at the statements in a little more detail.

In John 17:22 that same Jesus says:

The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;”

Did you catch that? Jesus said we, the believers, are one. More than that, He says that we are one in the same way (”just as we are one”) He and the Father are one. Do any of you really believe that there is only one human in the chruch? Or is Jesus saying that we are one in some manner or another? For instance, Paul also says in 1 Cir 6:16:

What? know ye not that he which is joined to a harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

Obviously two people do not make up one flesh. They are two different physical beings.

So in what way are the Christians one? In what way are two people joined in sex one? And in what way are a husband and wife one? That’s what it says in Mark 10:8. Given these verses and their context, we can see that “one” is not always intended to indicate a quantity.

Yes, there are portions of Scripture that state that Jesus is God. But this doesn’t disagree with the overall Trinitarian view. There are also portions of Scripture that say that the Holy Spirit is God. But again, this is consistent with the Trinitarian position. Jesus is God; and so are the Father and the Son. They are three separate persons, each one holy, eternal, omniscient, omnipotent. Each one has all the qualities of deity. But each one is perfectly united with the others. Whether I can explain HOW it works or not, the Bible says it is so.

Of course, there are at least two other concepts we believe but can’t explain. For example , Jesus is fully God and fully man. In other words He’s 100 percent God and 100 percent man. If I tried to sell 100 percent of a house to one person and then sell 100 percent of the house to someone else, I would go to jail for fraud. But the Bible says He is 100 percent God and 100 percent man. I can guarantee you there are not two people.

Our Bible, the very book I have been using as a reference, is said to be 100 percent inspired by God, that is, men moved by the Holy Spirit wrote it. But at the same time, the letters and books are the result of men’s personalities, experience, and individuality. In other words it’s 100 percent God inspired and 100 percent from the writer. Again, we’re talking about 200 percent. But you know that can’t be so. How can the Bible be completely from God yet reflect the personalities who wrote it? I can’t explain the mechanics. All I can say is that the Bible says it’s so.

The Bible says the Lord God is one. This fact cannot be denied. The Bible also says there are three persons who are in relationship with each other. Neither can this fact be denied.

No, I am not saying there are three gods. No, I am not saying there is a single god with three heads. And no, I’m not saying one plus one plus one equals 1. Rather I am saying that 1 times 1 times 1 equals 1. One of the slick characteristics of being a Christian who studies the Bible is that I have to understand WHAT the Bible says, but I don’t have to understand how everything the Bible says works. I mean think about it. What does it mean to be eternal, to exist before the beginning, to exist outside of time? And this little puzzle shows up at the very beginning of the Bible.

If you are a oneness person visiting the site, please don’t write in and mindlessly quote verses that speak of God being one. If you do, please explain how they don’t mean what I have said earlier in this posting. Be honest and address what I have said. Don’t just respond with trite proof texts.

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MN: Ladies and gentlemen, I have never been one to kick a man while he was down. Well…I did once but that was only because he had taken my lollipop. These days it takes a bit more to cause me to do it.

I’ve attached a bit of information from GaryV for you to read. You can get to the secondary source by clicking here And I suspect if you dig a little on Google you will be able to find even more. I just did a quick search on “Haggard + Tenney” and came up with a gold mine.

I had heard of Mr Haggard of course, but was not familiar with his doctrinal stances.

This is a letter to (I believe) Promise Keepers referencing Haggard’s doctrinal issues (We’ll leave aside PK’s own serious issues for the time being). The beginning of these sort of scandals ALWAYS leads back to either a misunderstanding of, or compromise of, doctrinal truth. Ted Haggard compromised, and gave satan a foothold. Let’s remember to pray for him and his family. I take this as a warning to remain on the “straight and narrow” doctrinally.

I found this link, but can’t find it again to give credit. My apologies to all for not being able to give proper credit, but I will try to locate it and post it.

The letter picks up below:

Following is a sample of his (Haggard’s) teachings and views and activities that I believe require close scrutiny and much prayer, as well as a personal confrontation with him by Promise Keepers:

· His enthusiastic endorsement of Tommy Tenney’s book, “The God Chasers”, for starters: “This is a marvelous book on the wonderful dangers of knowing God. The God Chasers is exciting, intense, unsettling and challenging. Tommy holds no punches, as he pleads with us to become desperate and determined in our pursuit of God.” I personally do not know any mature Christian who believes Tenney’s anti-Trinitarian views or this particular book ought to be pursued or endorsed.

· Mr. Haggard maintains close relationships with folk who have well-established reputations for being false prophets and false teachers. He is listed as a member of the C. Peter Wagner’s Wagner Leadership Institute , along with Cindy Jacobs, Chuck Pierce, Dutch Sheets, Tommy Tenney, and others (http://www.wagnerleadership.org/). This outfit teaches such things as the “Apostolic Realignment Empowers Transition: This course discusses the necessary role (sic) and responsibilities of Apostles that will enables churches to transition into apostolic churches. To identify and discuss some of the challenges and pitfalls that hinder as well as the practical steps and mindset changes that must be addressed to facilitate God’s New Order.” Haggard has appeared with and taught next to such questionable characters for many years, being listed as a speaker at the National School of Prophets - along with Wagner, Sheets, Mike Bickle, Rick Joyner and others , in 1999 and 2000. (http://www.letusreason.org/Latrain22.htm)

· The 1999 conference of the National School of Prophets took place in late January at Haggard’s church. At this conference, Cindy Jacobs declared, “Bourbon Street will have new wine. And the Lord says, ‘I’m going to send my young people, my young Elijahs, to these streets — and they’re gonna heal transvestites, and they’re gonna have sex-change operations just like that. I’m gonna give them what they need. I’m gonna be their lover.’” At this link - http://www.equip.org/free/DF400.pdf - you can read other outrageous comments, including some from Bill Hamon at this conference.

· Haggard opened his church up to Dutch Sheets, who brought the National School of the Prophets - Mobilizing the Prophetic Office Conference to New Life Church on May 12, 2002. Sheets is one of the Elijah List “prophets” that make outrageous claims as a matter of daily life. Subscribe to it (http://www.elijahlist.com/) for a week or two to get a taste of his theology.

· At this same conference, Haggard prayed, “Father, I thank you for those who have the office of either a prophet or a prophetess or have a strong flow in the prophetic. And Lord Jesus, we as a group of pastors, many in this room apostolic pastors, we release, we bless, we confirm the calling of the prophet - the calling of the prophetess - the calling of the prophetic, and we welcome it into the global church of the world. … And Lord God, we all love you so much and we thank you for the restoration of the apostolic and the prophetic in the local church congregation and in the global church so that we can do explosive ministry. In Jesus’ name, Amen.” This appears to clearly document Haggard’s views on modern apostles and prophets and their roles in the church. Yet Haggard’s own prophetic announcements regarding prayer for Saddaam Hussein to leave Iraq proved false. (http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/intercession/haggard0301.asp and http://www.elijahlist.com/words/display_word.html?ID=1359 which documents in his own words his continued relationships with C. Peter Wagner, Church Pierce, and the International Coalition of Apostles.)

· In March of 2003, Haggard appeared at the Northwest Intercessors’ Conference held at City Bible Church in Portland, Oregon , along with David Yonggi Cho, Cindy Jacobs, and Chuck Pierce. (http://www.cnnw.com/events_calendar/march2k3.html) Cho is widely heralded by new age “prophets” but teaches man-centered, Shamanistic heresies under the guise of Christianity: “You create the presence of Jesus with your mouth…. He is bound by your lips and by your words….” (The Fourth Dimension, Cho, p.83)

· In a magazine article in which Haggard is encouraging his church to pray and engage in missions, he claims to have been given a vision from the Lord (which may be a true statement) and recommends books by C. Peter Wagner and George Otis. (http://www.missionfrontiers.org/1993/0708/ja938.htm)

· As President of the NAE, Haggard hosted Robert Schuller at that association’s annual meeting in February of this year. Schuller’s view is perhaps best summed up by a statement he made in a Time magazine interview in 1985 , “I don’t think anything has been done in the name of Christ and under the banner of Christianity that has proven more destructive to human personality and, hence, counterproductive to the evangelism enterprise than the often crude, uncouth, and unchristian strategy of attempting to make people aware of their lost and sinful condition.” There’s no evidence that Schuller has repented of this anti-Biblical view of the Gospel. On his “Hour of Power” show on Nov 9, 2003, Schuller said, “Yes, God is alive and He is in every single human being!” Why bring this man to speak at any Christian organization?

· In 1997, Haggard opened his church to David Hogan , a self-described apostle and veteran of the infamous Brownsville, Florida “revival” who bragged about “slaying people in the spirit” and claimed to heal folk by waving clothes at them and yelling, “Fire!” (http://www.christianissues.com/hogan.html and http://www.pfo.org/exploits.htm)

· August 31- September 6, 2004 saw the “FIRST EVER MORRIS CERULLO SCHOOL OF MINISTRY ON PRAYER AND INTERCESSION” in Dallas, Texas. Featured speakers were reported to be Rick Joyner, Dutch Sheets, John Kilpatrick, Cindy Jacobs; Tommy Tenney, Steve Hill (of Brownsville, FL infamy), Ted Haggard, Kenneth Copeland, John Avanzini, and Mike Murdock , not to mention Morris Cerullo himself. Cerullo’s own web site claims, “He received a divine, supernatural call from God to preach at the age of fifteen when God took him into the heavens and revealed Himself to him by a supernatural vision.”

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