(MN: Ladies and gentlemen, I got an e-mail the other day that I must say simply blew me away. Aside from the fact she thinks I’m doing a wonderful job, Illiminated1 pretty well illustrates what happens to many people in the WoF movement. More than that, it demonatrates the power of God’s word to empower you to escape the clutches of the heresies. I decided to make hers a separate posting because I want you to see that there is hope. Keep getting the word out about the pimps. Stand on the truth - quit ye like men [and women] )
Hi Melvin,
I came across this website on a whim, and I was surprised that there are other people out that who are just as disillusioned with “the church” as I am.
After being raised in a boring Baptist church in smalltown Alabama, I was done with church. I accepted Christ at the age of 22 during a college Bible study. When I attended that Bible study, I couldn’t believe how real God was. I had never felt Him before and knew it to be Him, and in no time, I gave my life to Christ.
I accepted Christ back in 1998 at about the time that the latest “prosperity” movement took off. I bought into it hook, line, and sinker. I was a babe in Christ, and I thought that this is just how it was. Still, the church that I attended did not make a big deal out of money, but it was probably because most of us were college students and didn’t have much money anyway.
Today, I am a 30 year old high school English teacher, and I’m close to receiving a Masters Degree in English, so I’ve always been an avid reader. I remember that the week before I accepted Christ, I had picked up a Bible that I had really just gone home and gotten, and I read the Bible for 7 hours straight. I thank God for that Friday afternoon and night, because it really gave me a foundation of reading and studying the Bible on my own. This newly found “habit” would prove to be invaluable to me in the future, absolutely priceless.
After graduating college, I moved back home to work and joined a fledgling storefront church. At first, everything was wonderful at the church, but then came the time when we took out a six figure loan to remodel and move into an old church in the city. All of a sudden, everything was about money. Tithes and offering lists were posted so anyone could see how much others gave. Little groups were formed and each person in the group had to give $25 a week (or month, I can’t remember). The results of that were also placed on the wall. Then there were the “firstfruit” seed offerings, for which members were supposed to give one day or one week of pay. That was the 4th sunday of every month. Not to mention the “Resurrection Sunday” seeds, during which the real reason for that day was compromised and profaned by making it a day to give a “special” seed. All of a sudden, this “non-denominational” church came under the direction of a “Full Gospel” bishop, who would pop in from time to time to lecture the congregation on tithing and how to properly worship… er… appreciate the pastor.
Admittedly, I was in a high-ranking position in the church. I didn’t realize how special the group I was in at college was until I got home and realized that the people at that church were nothing like us. With my blind love and obedience to Christ, plus my addiction to the Bible, it didn’t take long before the pastor recognized it and promoted me. When the church’s focus became money, I immediately knew that something was wrong. But remember, I had never been exposed to anything else. I WAS though, exposed to be Bible, on a daily basis, and I knew that this emphasis on money, especially in a town where most people work at textile plants, or in minimum wage fast food or retail jobs, was totally ungodly. I became discontent.
During the time that God was pointing these things out to me about my local church, I traveled to Tampa to one of Juanita Bynum’s Women Weapons of Power conferences. The Word went forth powerfully, but the offerings were excessive. There were products for sale, and Bynum directed everybody to buy this book, a cd, I think, and a tee shirt before the last day of the conference. This was no small task, seeing that many women there had given endless amounts of money during all of those offerings. Bynum told people with no money to ASK others to buy the products for them that they couldn’t afford. I remember one woman coming up to me and asking me to buy her the tee shirt; she said that she had already gotten the other products but didn’t have the money for the shirt. I told her no, but my spirit was completely grieved by what I was experiencing.
My church had paid the $300 for me to attend the “conference within a conference” Women on the Frontline meetings. They had overbooked the meetings by several thousand people and only a few got the little bag and gifts that were supposedly included in the registration fee. In spite of that, Bynam ranted and raved for about an hour about excellence in ministry, even though the very meeting in which we were sitting was an example of the opposite. To add insult to injury, after the hour rant was over, she took up an offering. I vividly remember seeing a pile on money on the stage on which she stood. Personally, I was in disbelief.
God was showing me time and again, both in my personal bible study and time with him, and in things that I was experiencing, that this “big business” approach to ministry was outside of his will for the church.
Back at my old church, things were getting totally out of hand. Just before I resigned my position and left the church, they had placed a prayer request box in the foyer. Beside the prayer request box there was another box for you to drop an offering into after submitting your prayer request. I named this particular shenanigan “Pay to Pray.” That was it for me.
I commend you Melvin for what you are doing. I’m sure you suffer a lot of backlash because those who are blindly following these people are basically brainwashed and are not reading the Bible for themselves. They take the preacher’s word for being God’s Word, and that is nothing short of idolatry. You get the attacks that you get b/c the people in these churches are brainwashed and they consider your calling their pastor a “pimp,” as heresy. Now THAT is heresy and idolatry. You are calling people out for turning Christ’s church into a “den of thieves” but rather than defending what Christ said, they defend their pastor or bishop. Like I said, that is heresy and idolatry.
I am in total agreement with much of what is posted here, aside from your brash language. You do call it “smashmouth” and that’s what it is. I have no problem with that. I do assure you that God is leading more and more people here, because he is exposing these so-called “leaders” for what they are. They are knowingly using God’s people to line their pockets. It is profoundly wrong. So Melvin, keep it up. Your message is falling on fewer and fewer “deaf” ears.
That’s what it’s all about……….thanks for your obedience Mel.
What a beautiful testimony
Wow. Just wow. Praise the Lord she’s seen the light.
Mark
What an awesome Testimony
I am so glad to know this site exists. My husband and I traveled for 13 yrs. with an evangelist and his family and now they pastor in NC. I watched and was part of the progression of seeing this “family” turn into “pulpit pimps”. We left 7 months ago( we were staff members) and are still healing from their love of money,their slave-master mentality and their hormongering spirit. Not to mention they are family of my husbands. Thank God he saw the light and chose me over them. There are others that you have mentioned that they are connected to.Big names with pockets full of cash that doesnt belong to them. Now we are involved in mainly outreach which keeps us focused on the real mission of Christ. Thank you for exposing these people for what they really are. It’s time the REAL church arise.
Oh my goodness………….thank God, for the power of his Word and those who are pure in spirit! My extraction from Atlanta’s biggest prosperity ministry was not by chance. I studied the Word of God and through that along with prayer, I eventually left the ministry. I am encouraged that all who truly desire to know God for who he really is will come out from under these churches. It seems as if this young lady learned the same lesson I did - study to show thyself approved.
I have attended only one church consistently since leaving the prosperity ministry, but no longer attend there. It is hard to find a stable church home, but there are many ways of fellowship. I hope to find a church home soon in the Atlanta area. Keep me in your prayers! Most importantly keep those who are in these prosperity ministries in your prayers!!!!!!
hp
You may like the Church At Heart Christian Fellowship in Atlanta, GA. We currently meet for fellowship on Sunday at 12:15 and on Tuesday at 7pm at the Andrew Young YMCA on Campbelton Rd by Delowe Dr. This fellowship believes in freewill giving as opposed to tithing. It is not pastor centered and the teaching is truly biblical based.
I have recently left my church home here in Atlanta.
I will no longer make it a habit of becoming a member of an “church” but would still love the fellowship of the saints of God. Where can I find a place I can grow and learn in the spirit???
Right now the only fellowship I have is through the internet with various websites. I love it also but I hope to find something in my own home town.
Can you help JLP? Would someone like me be welcome?
I’m sorry for the slow response to your message. Yes, you are welcome to come as you are. There is no dress code or hair style code, etc. for God is not like man who looks and judges based on outward appearance, but He looks at the heart.
i am going to try and make it out this coming tuesday - thanks
Hi Heather P,
Just to give you an update. Starting December we will have weekday bible study only on the 1st and 3rd Tuesday of every month. Starting in January 2007, every 1st Sunday will be our communion fellowship meal, in which we will not have a regular sunday Service, but instead we will meet at the YMCA at our regular time and then go out and fellowship together at a designated dining location. Members are encouraged to invite guess to a free meal with us.
Church At Heart Christian Fellowship
Andrew Young YMCA
2220 Campbelton Rd
Atlanta, GA
Hi Heather, i’m so glad that God opened your eyes and brought you out. Praise God! i experienced something similar when i visited Heritage Christian Center in Denver (led by dennis leonard- ever heard of him mel?) Jakes, was the guest preacher for the day. and outside in the vestibule, they were hawking all his wares. my brother who was on staff at the time said he felt pressured to give in the $500 “love offering” line because he knows they look at the books of who gives- and staff definitely has to support the ministry. (btw, the offering leader had all kinds of monetary lines- 1000, 500, 100 etc. you know how it goes). my father, who is not born again yet, attended w/ us and felt so disgusted- he said it felt like a circus atmosphere to him, and never wanted to return there.
my brother, no longer “fellowships” there, and has been really turned off by these places. not turned off to Jesus- but he certainly isn’t in any hurry to find a “church home”.
i thank God for His unfathomable, grace, mercy, and peace. Thank You JESUS for setting the captives FREE! Hallelujah and amen!
bear w/ me a sec….
if you know the tune, sing along (smile)
i am freeee. praise the Lord, i’m free.
no longer boouuunnd, no more chains holding meeee
my soul is rest-inggg, it’s such a blessssinng,
praise the Lord, hallelujah i’m freeeee.
‘preciate it mel. lol
Mrs Mav………you DO have a sense of humor!!!
gary, you like? lol
Indeed I do………..and I like you as well.
awwww gee, gary we is friends. (big smile)
to hear you say that really warms the coc…..um, ..i mean gets me right here in the old ticker.
Ditto Mrs Mav………..I’ve never had the compunction to surround myself with friends who MUST agree with me. That’s the reflex of the insecure.
Besides…………just think how much fun it will be when I finally convert you (wink) :LOL:
gary, compunction, apoplectic, and such like…. gotta have a dictionary, and thesaurus next to me when i read your posts
c’mon, admit it- i know you like to get your scrabble on
I absolutely LOVE Scrabble!!! Too bad we don’t live closer………it would be a battle of TITANIC proportions!! :LOL:
(MN: Even gargantuan proportion, I’ll bet.)
mel, i dont know if my post went thru so this might be a dup. i just HAAD to inform gary that i beat the cream cheese outta everyone i play with- so there! aaaaand i know all the 2 letter words, and the q words w/out the u. aaannnd if i dont get a 7 letter, or bingo or whatever you call it in every game, then i must be coming down w/ the flu-and guess what?! i never had the flu! LOLOLOLOL.
dndndndn, dndndn, can’t touch this.
I sense a challenge…………
God is real
Unreal, unreal, unreal, the more I hear the more it seems unreal. If I was on the corner, I’d know that was a scam, tee shirt, cd, book, extra money for seminars, overbooking and multiple offerings, unreal
I really feel the Lord’s will is being done in exposing these crooks.
It is interesting that so many of them seem to have ties with the Full Gospel Baptists. It seems like the whole clique is corrupt. Maybe the entire denomination was devised to play on emotions and make money?
It certainly looks that way when looking at the figures involved.
Does anyone know of any descent churches in Baltimore, Maryland who arent money hungry yet are 100% Bible teaching and believing. BTW, I saw a few video clips on (YouTube); a pastor, Donnie was preaching a sermon on exposing Prosperity Schemes. It was so enlightening. Please visit http://www.youtube.com and I guess type: Pastor Donnie or Donnie and you will be blessed. Also Melvin, your “Creflo Dollar” also is now preaching such heresies that “We are Gods” also on youtube.com. He even claims that Jesus isn’t God and that we were all lied to for years. Please check this anti-christ out on youtube. Peace and blessings man, much love and respect for you and God’s ministry in you.
Hello Cobi! You have been truly blessed by Brother Derrick Moore and his wife. The Bible speaks severally about integrity, and they are a prime example (by the nature of info Derrick Moore posted) of biblical integrity. My prayer is that in your asking, it shall be given to you; in your seeking, you shall find; and in your knocking, the door shall be opened to you. May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. His love and mine, Beryle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2HMR3zCQWY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aa6xadR6fkU
Related verses 1 Corinthians 2:2-14, 1 Timothy 6:3-10, 1 Timothy 6:17-19
Dear Cobi,
I live in Baltimore,MD and attend the Carter Memorial Church of God in Christ where my Pastor is Elder Carl Pierce Sr. We are a praying church and our Pastor preaches the unadulterated Word of God. I was a member of Empowerment Temple for 5 years before I finally realized that I was being emotionalized and not truly fed. My wife and I joined Carter back in June of this year and have been truly blessed. Come by and visit. Don’t be put off by the COGIC denomination. We are not judgemental and our focus is not on the outward appearance. Feel free to email me at dmoore28@hotmail.com and we will meet you at the sanctuary to worship with you. I thank God for this website. The saints are being led astray but charismatic wolves who preach one thing but live a totally different lifestyle. To God be the glory.
TO DERRICK MOORE: HALLELUJAH! I say, for a carbon copy of Acts 18:24-26’s Aquila and Priscilla. I pray that you continue to be fed, and feed others, the true, living bread! Jesus’ love and mine. Beryle
hi bloggers, melvin, gary, anyone…..
after reading derrick’s post about not being fed at ET, and subsequently moving on- i need to know at what point do we stop being fed? i honestly don’t get the whole ‘go where you’re being fed’ thing. i know Jesus said to feed my lambs, and sheep-but was this commandment to Peter meant to be taken for a perpetual commandment? i mean, do mature believers still need to sit under a pastor year in and year out to hear the Word of God and have it explained to them? (this quest. isn’t specifically directed at derrick, but i used the reply space to post this question because it brought up the subject matter of being fed indirectly)
thanks for the input. peace.
I’d like to ask a question, Derrick Moore left his old “Church” because he
Felt he wasn’t getting feed, question, when have we eaten enough, when do we
Reached the point of maturity, when has our feeding become gluttonous? I’m not stating that
That we can know it all, that’s impossible. Consider this, when we were children our
Parent’s responsibility was to teach us, to prepare us as we enter adulthood. We become adults, and apply the lessons we were taught. Why is this fundamental principal never encouraged in the Church? Why are believers not encouraged to move out of the house, (You don’t have to be a member of a local Church to be a member of the body of Christ), why is this natural progression in human and spiritual development rejected
Dear Brother Samuels,
Your comment is correct when you referred to parents feeding their children until they mature and can go out on their own but I feel you are incorrect in stating that you don’t need to be a part of a local Church. The Bible states to fail not to assemble yourself. My wife and I were young when we joined ET and found it very exciting but as we matured, we needed more than emotionalism. A local Church should be a place of enlightment and a place where your soul can be “fed”. When I was not saved, I “craved” for wordly things (clubs,partying,women,etc.) but once a proclaimed salvation, my soul craved for a better understanding of the “whole” word.
This understanding helps me to get through this Christian journey with power. There are a great number of people who claim to be saved but have no power and limited knowledge of the Scriptures. I now go to a church where the Pastor is approachable and accessible (doesn’t have 20 armor bearers looking like they will break your neck if you extend your hand to greet your Pastor). My Pastor is also genuinely concerned about my family and my active participation in the ministry.
If we did not need the local Church, everyone would lead toward their own understanding (not necessarily under the divine revelation of the Holy Spirit). It is true that at some point, the Christian must mature and seek God for themselves but this is a long walk(holiness) and the journey becomes easier when you have a true man of God to instruct you. Be blessed.
I have noticed that quite a few Pastors have armor bearers. Is this in the Bible? And what do these armor bearers do? The one thing I have noticed, is that you sure can’t access the Pastor when these guys are around. Why would a Pastor not want to be accessible to the people of the church?
dear brother derrick moore,
i hear you, but i definitely don’t agree w/ you. as in my earlier post, i’m still waiting for someone to address my question. at what point does a believer stop depending on a pastor to constantly “feed” them. was Jesus’ commandement to peter to feed His lambs, and sheep meant to be taken by pastors as a perpetual commandment to feed the same old lamb/sheep year after year after year after year?
as for heb.10:25, not being involved in a local assembly doesn’t mean that one has forsaken the assembly of the brethren. believers assemble in various ways and at different venues.
i dont believe michael samuels was saying that we dont need the church (were you mike?) nor do i think he was implying that. how can we not need the church when WE, MAKE UP THE CHURCH? we are a part of the living Body of Christ worldwide. of course we need the rest of the brethren and sisters- but mature believers no longer need to be under “true men of God to instruct them”. that’s why they have Jude, and Peter, and Paul and the Bishop of their souls- Jesus Christ. mature believers are supposed to be instructing babes, and making disciples, who will in turn, after they’ve matured, instruct babes and make more disciples. it doesn’t take a “pastor’s calling” to do this.
as far as everyone leaning to their own understanding if they dont belong to a local assembly…what do you think we have now?? i dont know where you’re from but here in new york city, you can take a casual stroll down any borough, (especially brooklyn and queens) and find at LEAST 3 different “churches” on 1 block. mind you, none of them “fellowship” w/ each other if they’re not part of the same denomination.
whereas my husband and i, and our family do not ‘belong’ to anyone’s church because we are already part of the church of God which is His Body. as far as ministry goes, my husband meets w/ other brethren at different times, in different locations and they fellowship. as for me, if being a wife and mother isn’t ministry in itself then i dont know what is. but i do meet w/ my sisters in Christ for fellowship as often as i am able to. and i minister to women and teach Christ to them as often as possible.
our peers in the gospel really don’t understand why we decided to leave the institution of “church”. (hence, my moniker). our connection to Jesus Christ and the people of God is not through a building- we are edified in more ways than through pastors and elders alone. they think “we just need to find another good church home”. for what?? we say. they say we need a covering? where is that scriptural? the Head of every man is Christ, the head of the woman is the man- where are we out of order? i am under the Lord’s authority as well as my husband’s and he is under the Lord’s-we are accountable to God, each other, our children (they live w/ us and see the real us on a daily basis), and some trusted friends who are mature in the gospel. as for still needing a pastor, no thank you. been there, done that. grew up in Christ, know how to discern btwn. good and evil etc. etc.
please dont get me wrong derrick, i’m not knocking you if this is something that you and your family need and get great enjoyment from… i’m glad it works for you. i’m just addressing the statement that you made about needing a local church.
ps. we believe this is 1 of the reasons why so many ppl are confused and messed up about christianity-you’ve got so many ppl talking about “they were brought up in ‘church’ “, “grew up around the ‘church’ “, “been in ‘church’their whole life” so they feel they are somehow ok w/ God. But the reality is they never knew Jesus. No one receives Christ and is born-again simply by osmosis or assimilation. Going to the building some call ‘church’ doesn’t make anyone a christian any more than riding a horse makes one a cowboy.
blessings&peace2u brother.
(MN: I’m sorry. I forgot to answer your initial question earlier. However, I don’t think you are going to like the answer very much. I actually discussed this in an tangential manner a while back. Try this link for a somewhat extended answer. However, the short answer is: There are few good reasons to leave a church. In fact, I would suggest the only satisfactory reasons for leaving are 1) the teaching of heresy and 2) Unaddressed public immorality being allowed to exist in that local body.
I give a list of reasons I don’t think are sufficient for leaving. Take a look at them and see what you think. Again the article can be viewed by clicking here. )
hi melvin, i read your rebuttal and i see where you stand- so there’s no need for me to go further. i am in no ways upset by it as i felt your points were typical, and traditional but not scriptural. we will certainly agree to disagree in this area for i thought i made it clear that i cant leave a “church” because i am the church. so benevolent dictator as you are, you are entitled to the last word in this matter.
as always blessings&peace
(MN: Would it be okay if I provided scripture to back it up? I would be more than happy to.)
wassup mel. i’m interested in the verses.
Melvin….I guess I want to know how you define the term “public” with regard to immorality, even as many smaller congregations of our day allow it to continue.
It is appears worse in the “Mega-Church”. I mean, how many known adulterers are booted out? How many blatent un-repentant homosexuals? It is almost a total disregard to what standard the Word of God has. Praise God I have been able to grow through the obstacles I have seen and heard, as men place millstones on the necks of “their sheep”, I go elsewhere…..only to see it repeatedly done.
I myself have been to 4 different churches, 1 COGIC (Long Beach, CA), 1 Baptist (Compton, CA), 3 Non-Denominational (Baton Rouge, & 2 in Los Angeles, CA). None were affiliated and actually one (Bethany World Prayer Center in which I attended in 1999 - Baton Rouge, LA) I was amazed to find a link (Larry Stockstill and Ted Haggard within the Association of Evangelicals of America who appear to politically funded and geared).
The theme appears the same. I question if “Adults” are being raised because it overwhelmigly appears to be “no”. So how do I repeatedly “sit” if the heresy is so rampant? I feel “Institutionalized” when joining ones church…..It is through study and revelation of God’s Word that I have been able to understand some heresies taught. I really would like to know if the teaching, etc is not adequate and is contrary to the Word of God….why would one sit…especially a babe?
Any answer is much appreciated.
(MN: Public means people know about it. For instance, I was part of a church in Panama City Florida back in the early 80’s. We had a choir and a choir director. It turns out that the choir director was in a sexual relationship with the lead singer. It was discovered through a series of events. The choir director was “sat down” and the lead singer was no longer allowed to sing. An example (though I think and extreme one) from the Bible is the fellow who was apparently sleeping with his step mother (1 Cor 5:1 - 6) The man was sinning publicly and he was chastened by the church - excommunicated. Of course, the church in Corinth was behaving like most churches today until Paul kicked them in the rear. )
Thanks for the answer. The situation in Corinth is one that always pops up in my mind with regard to today’s churches. Extremely sensual, self-indulgent, and rich. It just doesn’t appear that ANY are “kicked in the rear”….time after time I really feel like churchh after church is not teaching the people….even “dumbing” the gospel down.
I know of a preacher (good heart and loves God)…but I question the methods because when people come to the altar he says things like…”Don’t think it all happens overnight, etc, etc, etc…you may still be cursing, and blah, blah blah”….. along those lines…..it just appears to be such a lack of Godly fear instilled into the people.
I hear so much of God is love….but who made Nebuchanezzar eat grass? Who sent the tormenting spirit to Saul? Who “hardened” Pharaoh’s heart?
It just appears God is being made into whom we WANT him to be and not whom he really is.
Much of what appears to be taught in churches (and people really do not know any different) is a form of Jungian Psychology. Unltimately points to yourself and what YOU are going to do and how YOU are going to work for what God has for YOU……No trusting God, etc, etc….Ultimately it all revoves around you/looking inward/understanding you and your sub-conscious.
Kinda makes me think of Osteen. Just makes everyone feel good.
I look at Reggie White (NFL Hall of Famer), and when he started to find the REAL truths of the Bible, he shared his findings….he was called a heretic, dis-associated by “ministers” whom he had associated with for years, called a liar, a Judaism convert, and ex-communicated by many in his circle. Then he stepped away…hadn’t stepped foot into a church in two years. Learned to study the Hebrew texts of the Bible (8 hours a day) with a teacher that taught him the language after a trip to Jerusalem. He had even learned to read some of the texts for himself…..I just thought that was pretty amazing because you tear down everything that you have known about the Bible and subject it to your own interpretation by studying the original language.
Hearing of this started to open my eyes just before his death. And especially of one dream in particular he had before he died. It was entirely in Hebrew. The dream showed a treasure that he had found, and when he had opened it inside contained a message in Hebrew. When he woke up and translated it the next day, the message said something to the extent of “Jehovah has redeemed you.” I believe he passed away about 2 weeks to a month afterward at the age of 41. I truly believe that God raised him to REAL life.
Yes, please provide scripture that will back up your point, because I’ve never seen scripture that implies the believer should be a Member of an organized organization for life, how can one ever mature?
Heb 10:25, Mat 18:20, John 20:19; Acts 1:13, Acts 2:1,42, Acts 20:7, 1Cor 11:18, 1Cor 11:20,1Cor 14:23,Heb3: 13, Rom12: 8, 1Th4: 18, 1Th 5:11
The scriptures above are the one’s most used to prove your point, you’ll have to come up with better ones
They don’t prove your point.
Now remember the Church is not a building not an organization, it’s the Congregation of belivers
hey guys, i haven’t read all the comments but the few that i read moved me to post this comment. I’m so more than happy that God is really working in the lives of people who want to serve Him. He’s revealing the works of darkness thru these so called preachers. Howver, we must not allow the children of disobedience to drive us towards disobeying God. After you have left a congregation that isn’t worshipping God in truth and in spirit, it is necessary for you to pray for God’s leading to a real church of God. The Lord commanded in Hebrews 10 vs 25 not to forsake the gathering of saints. we can’t afford to leave going to church because there are wolves there in sheep’s clothing. God knew they’ll be out there even when He gave the commandments. anywayz, just thought i’d say this to all.
Btw: mel, how come i can’t see my past comments? thanks
(MN: Not sure. When did you post it? )
don’t worry, i found my way round…obviously, that’s why i can reply to this one…thanks a lot.
I just wanted to add another point. Please stop being influenced or impressed with large congregations. There are a number of churches that are large in membership but the Spirit of God does not dwell there. If anyone feels as though they must leave their present church, please pray and ask God to direct your path to a church that will meet your spiritual needs. Prayer is essential and is not being taught in this modern era. God is more than a sugar daddy and he cannot “BLESS A MESS”. You have to be positioned for a blessing and disobedience forces you out of position. We need to get back to “old time” fasting and praying. Jesus is soon to come and I don’t believe He will be pleased with a large congregation with few true saints.
Amen.
Your point is very true (and well recieved) with regard to large congregations. It is amazing how the Word of God continues to reaffirm your point all through the Bible.
I was blessed to see another example of this last week in Judges 7:1-9.
Melvin, I was trying to respond to an earlier post by Gridiron, but got tired when I couldn’t find it…Anyhoo…in response to his post about a preacher who hung around Bynum and dealt with emotionalism, did he mean Cindy Trimm?
http://www.cindytrimm.com/
When he kept writing “Trimble” that’s the first name that came to mind….
The Cindy Trimm website is interesting. Is this supposed to be a ministry or a business? Its funny that its called Cindy Trimm “Corporation”.
Went to the web site and it looks like the others…Appears that on the last two lines of the Home Page, Jesus’ name is finally mentioned…Curriculum is not clearly defined…Words describing KU and its chancellor sound familiar—like they’ve been used in other worthless introductions and accolades…In other words, same song, different melody.
Thanks Tweet, you are correct…Her name is Trimm. Run from her…and I mean RUN FAST. I was so disturbed when I heard this lady…Threshing Floor…. Prophetic “Judge” (or Deborah of our day)….A BUNCH of MADNESS.
the threshing floor, r m e , and a big sigh.
hey all, i’m from the united kingdom so i’m a bit lost on thhs WoF thing. what does it mean?
hey toammyb,
this website does a pretty good job of explaining what it is, where it comes from, and how it is justified. I’m still reading through it myself.
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/p/p23.html
truthofgod I would disagree with thier descriptions, just off of the first few defenitions of what is being taught. It is more of a scientific approach at how someone views it to be, at the AI website.
Example
1) Positive Confession: The Theology of the Spoken Word (Rhematology), or thought actualization, is commonly known as positive confession. It stresses the inherent power of words and thoughts. Each person predestines his own future by what he says verbally and by how well he uses spiritual laws. As such, it is as if we live in a mechanistic universe instead of a personal one (see, Kenneth Copeland, Laws of Prosperity, p. 15; Charles Capps, The Tongue A Creative Force, pp. 117-118; Releasing the Ability of God, pp. 98-99, 101-104).
As I shared with you and asked the question to you about confession/profession.
Psalms 19:7-14,
19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.
Hebrews 3:7-19,
3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
1 Timothy 6:6-12
6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses
Psalms 45:1-5
45:1 My heart is inditing a good matter: I speak of the things which I have made touching the king: my tongue is the pen of a ready writer.
Proverbs 18:21
21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.
Genesis 2:18-20
And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
Genesis 1:1-31
Notice here that God said this and it was, until he came to man he created man in his own image and likeness. God makes it very clear that anything made was made after its own kind, then say let us make them in our own image and likeness. We are also spirits that are dwelling in a temporal body (formed from the dust). Also notice that when was conceived within Mary that the seed had to be a like seed to follow that of Gods law. The law that states everything is made after its own kind. This is a law like the law of gravity. God even abides by his own laws. Remember God is a just God.
In God using words to speak things or saying things in order to exist it also shows us the power of words through him. It is because of God that there is any power within words. God is so powerful that he would not have to use words, why not just think things into existence? Rather he shows us here that there is power in words as is shown above, and throughout scripture.
This is not a claim that people are the omnipotent one. That is the misconception that those who argue against this use. If I watch a movie and go in knowing I don’t like something, if that something shows up several times I will no longer hear what the rest of the movie is about. This could be applied to many different things, including a teaching. If I am distracted by something being said over and over again within a message I may not actually hear the whole message being taught. This is not always the case but very much can be. Often what I find to be when an example is shown of why something is wrong, is the misconception of what is being actually taught.
Much Love
KBill
(MN: Okay people. I need one of you to sign up as a permanent Kbill interpreter. This posting didn’t make much sense to me. But maybe I came into it with the wrong frame of mind. What is Kbill saying? What am I missing? )
KBill…..JUNGIAN PSYCHOLOGY. Look it up…it is being mixed into the church. You have recited every key point concerning it and how they have blended into the scriptures.
Many other psychology types have been blended into the church as well and people don’t know the difference, because they have been taught this WoF and nothing else.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungian_psychology
How could that be true Gridiron, you speak of something you do not know. My history in the church has been Congrigational, Presbyterian, Church of God and Christ, Penticostal, Non Denominational, and now the name of the Church is First Baptist, but is a holiness teaching church. I go by the label others have given it saying it is WoF.
So where exactly are you getting this, but by assumption, the very thing you say isn’t happening.
Jungian psychology could be misconstrude into this. Yet if you really look at the very essense of who we are in God. The scripture written long before Jungian psychology was. My teacher has been the bible and to trust no man. Yet you want to believe another way. I cannot prove it to you any more than I can show you the physical evidence of God in my life.
Please explain to me how this realyl is a mixture. One I have not been transformed by some man who preached to me. I have been where you where been before and saw the error within that, because I only studied through my own intelect and not with the guide of the Holy spirit.
There are many things attempting to blend or mix into the church.
Let me first assure you that I live a lifestyle not by the worlds defenition of the word religion. Yes it can be included within what they try to define yet there defention leaves out the truth that God is the only living and true God.
I ask you to study what it means to understand who you are in God. If anything jungian psychology stole from God. Stole some of its ideas and made something out of it. You can find that in all things that are in the world.
I shared with you the word of God. Now if you have a problem with the word of God, then that is up to you. You may not agree with what I shared, but that does not make it wrong.
Much Love
KBill
Brotha, everything you referred to “the Word of God” pointed to whom?
The origin of Psychology was deemed the “study of the soul”. Man’s attempt to reason within himself apart from the scriptures. Look it up.
Power in your words, Positive Confession, these ORIGINATE within the realm of Psychology & have more to do with “self” than anything else.
Denominational Creeds don’t matter (I have experienced quite a few)….the green does. Emotionally charged people are more apt to being taken advantaged of and being bankrolled. I used to think this emotional (or Holy Ghost as they call it) “giving” was proper…though most times (no matter what church) I was completely uncomfortable…..”We got 500 dollars….need 1000 more!” “The unction of the spirit is leaving hurry up!” Like an auction.
WoF has crossed denominational lines because it is profitable. People love the WoF Regardless of Denom simply because SELF is exhalted. They are made to feel good, not about the Lord……ABOUT THEMSELVES.
Get Yo Blessin, The devil can’t stop you…Tell the devil, shake the devil off you….the focus is the individual. Not God.
What do you really have the power to do?
To walk in the newness of Christ. Thats it.
The Word is never wrong. Only the exegesis.
God is the source of all power, it comes from him. It is not our power. Also understand that in order to serve him in full you would be doing it for the kingdom of God sake. Also Let this mind be in you that was also in Christ Jesus. I take no power away from God, for is is the all powerful.
Jesus did what he did through the power of God. I need to go to class now but will explain more later. I thank you for the candid conversation back and fourth.
Much Love
KBill
kbill, i’m not particularly sure of your stance on this. And i’ve been looking for a clear cut answer in previous posts, but still can’t get it….
…Forget that, look.
This is the problem that i have with the WOF doctrine. It promotes mere clay-flesh and bone human beings to possess the same “powers” as God. They misinterpret scripture like Genesis 1:26, and say that just because we are made in his image, then that means that we have his nature which is absolutley FALSE. It simply means that we carry SOME of God’s attributes (a will, verbal communication, we can possess joy, feel pain, pass judgement…etc). But the buck stops there. We donot possess the nature of God, simply put, God is the creator we are the creation. God is spirit, man is human. God is infinite, man is finite. Man has to pray to God for strength, God is strength.
For instance when you look at the Prophets and Apostles. When ever they performed a miracle or gave a prophecy, they always gave glory to God. They never took credit for anything because they knew that God did it THREW them, (i.e. they were mere instruments). Almost like a musician uses a flute to make music. Without the musician, the flute is just some piece of brass, sitting there.
kbill, i hope i’m not flying over your head with what i’m saying. But honestly, the few verses that you just gave in your post has nothing to do with man’s power to speak anything (positively) into existance. I do believe that our words can have influence on our environment. Like cuss words can cause an environment of hostility and strife. While kind and soft words can manipulate a calm environment. But thats all! Its only God that has the ability to speak; and things happen as a direct expression of what he said. Thats part of what makes him the ALMIGHTY. Man can speak and people don’t pay him no mind.
ahhh, furthermore.. i’m getting alittle worn down from running around circles on this issue. I really don’t see this going anywhere. I hate to appear stubborn, since you feel as though that i haven’t tapped into this new revelation of scripture. Therefore unless you can clearly relay exactly what you believe, then i’m not sure, this is even worth discussing.
Peace
(MN: Now you undersand why he keeps getting kicked out of various threads on the posts. And he’s getting close again. )
(MN: I need a little feedback from you readers. Is this guy making sense to you? At all? I’m really having trouble following him and am considering simply ignoring his comments from this point on. Of course, I’m willing to continue to post his comments and you the readers can simply skip over him if you want. But what’s the point of putting it out there if no one reads it? Short of a revolt from you, I will give him a few more posts. But I’m not enjoying it, at all. )
I even wrote and I qoute “In God using words to speak things or saying things in order to exist it also shows us the power of words through him.” God is the one we get any power from no matter if words or anything else. Even Jesus claimed this.
My position is this. You say the WoF is wrong in thier doctirne. That off the bat is wrong, because there is only one doctrine and that is Gods doctrine, man can call it what they will. To say that the WoF teachings are wrong is also misleading from what teachings I come from that are within the WoF and I have seen nothing here posted to say otherwise.
I also see the error of many on here using the partial knowledge of things, misqouted and misunderstood, because of the teaching and defence they put up in thier mind before. Only using part of the story.
This is often used within the media today to show a side that really doesn’t exist. I wouldn’t even say a lot people know that they are doing it. It is not there intent in otherwords.
MN Go ahead and kick me out I am not at all fearful of you, and your opinion/beliefs. Nor your attempts to try to make me look bad. Don’t post, that is on you your choice. Threats do not move me, God moves me. I am not hear to play games.
As for understanding what was said above just go to the link that truthofgod suplied and see that was what I was responding to. Truth was responding to someone else who asked what WoF was and I said I do not agree with what they depict there. It is not accurate.
Much Love
KBill
Wow brotha….very clear, concise, and well communicated. I like the flute analogy. that is very, very, very true….as I used to think “speaking life” was some sort of power which made me a “Mini-God”.
(As I referenced from the VERY SAME SCRIPTURES that Kbill references)
I would be in the room speaking, while thinkin’ I was prophesying the paint on the walls off. Thinking that GOD HAS TO MOVE because I said it (Jer 1:12). Boy was I fooled.
The Past year has been a great one of eye opening realities in the Word. KBill…Jesus oft performed miracle…..? Sight to the blind. Lets wake up brotha. I have and haven’t turned back.
Communicating here has helped my confidence in speaking out as well. Praise God.
D.Moore and others
Should a believer come into a personal relationship with his Lord? The answer is Yes. But how is it possible if the schoolteacher is standing in the way? If the believer is filled with the spirit of God, why would God hang them out to dry, and not bring all things to their remembrances, The child has been trained up, if he departs, does not the word state “he shell return” we can not protect by over parenting. Our faithlessness has infected the young believer, and has produced a generation of spiritual misfits.
Dear Brother Samuels
It seems as though you have a great deal of “church hurt” and carry a lot of resentment towards the position of Pastor and the “church” at large. You are correct in stating that a believer must mature but even in your maturing, you need spiritual guidance. In the Bible, It states that God has assigned pastors,elders,deacons,evangelists,etc for the believers. The problem we face as the Body of Christ is two fold. 1) We have a number of believers who refuse to submit themselves to leadership and feel they are qualified to go through life with no covering or instruction. 2) There are a number of people misleading the Church(through excessive prosperity teaching and an overall lack of biblical wisdom). Whether you choose to believe it or not, we as believers have to submit ourselves to those who have been appointed by God to lead His people. It is my prayer that whatever hurt you are carrying, you turn it over to God for your complete wholeness. I do not send my comments in hoping to go back and forth with other believers. That is not the purpose of this website. Pray for me and I will pray for you.
prove it derrick, your covering is Christ, why are you allowing a man to cover you.
prove it derrick, your covering is Christ, why are you allowing a man to cover you. sorry it’s not word.
Brother Samuel,
Christ is my eternal covering but while on Earth, my Pastor is my covering. God had appointed and anointed him. The Body of Christ is much more effective when we collectively strive to do the work of Christ. Maybe your problem is that you do not want to submit to anyone. you cannot lead until you learn how to submit. This ‘MAN’ that you are referring to speaks life into me and my family. If I felt as though he was not following Christ, I would stay under his leadership either.
But as believers aren’t we ALL “anointed”? (2 Cor 1:21, 1 John 2:20)….
exactly grid.
(2 Cor 2:21) (1 John 2:20)
(MN: Not sure which verse you meant in 2 Cor 2. )
Oops…2 Cor 1:21
hi grid, u had it right the first time, 2 cor. 1:21