(MN: It’s interesting that you would approach it this way, especially since Paul didn’t. Paul, when talking to Christians, spoke of one group giving out of their deep poverty - deep poverty. But no place in that discussion did he speak of their 100 fold blessing. No place does he promise them anything other than the riches we have in Jesus Christ. Even in Romans, chapter 8, verses 35 through 39 (my wife and I just happen to be memorizing this section), Paul says we overwhelmingly conquer - while being put to death daily and while being considered as sheep for slaughter. How is the “prosperity gospel” consistent with this? How does being told that God wants us rich help the believer to be faithful to Christ? More importantly, how man of the cheated brothers and sisters in Christ move out of poverty based on their association with and giving to the Afro-pimps?

By the way, if you are going to use a verse, do try to use it in context. I believe the verse is talking about mercy, not judgment. Am I judging and doing the same things? If so, the severity of the judgment I make will be meted to me as I meted it to others. )

Thanks for the clarification.

Are you saying that the people who got HIV/AIDS through no fault of their own got it because of sin? Are you making an argument for generational curses?

(MN: Look at the mechanics:

Neither of these (Catie and Ashe) contracted AIDS because of something they did. They were infected because of something someone else did. Collateral damage. )

(MN: I suspect you are starting to figure out that you don’t have to wait on the Black church or any other church to minister to the HIV/AIDS victims. Do you remember the story of the Good Samaritan? The religious people (the ones who wanted to be Churchy Correct) stepped over, walked around, and generally avoided the guy who had gotten the crap kicked out of him and left on the road for dead. These guys were too busy doing church.

Bottom line - forget the “Black Church.” Go out there and do that which Christ would have you to do. Find other like-minded individuals (i.e. Christian and willing to trust God to work through them) and minister. The biggest con out there is the idea that you have to work through the “HIV/AIDS Ministry” at Greater Victory and Luscious Living in the Spirit Temple and Day Care Center in order to be effective. The second biggest one is that you need government funding to do it. You don’t. You only have to be submitted to God and trust Him. )

(MN: As cruel as it may sound, these are collateral damage. Sin destroys. And usually it destroys the sinner as well as those around the sinner. Consider the Israelites. Their children had to wander around in the desert for forty years because of something the parents did. Look also at Achan. He took some stuff when he wasn’t supposed to and his entire family was destroyed. Sin destroys. And it doesn’t limit itself to the sinner.

But again, we minister with love and kindness. )

(MN: The same way you minister to someone dying from drink-induced liver failure or other terminal illness. The fact that the person contracted the disease doing something they weren’t supposed to be doing, doesn’t make them any less human or any greater a sinner. )

Sad thing, though, is that the mentality that people should be supplied with what they need to sin (i.e. promoting the false mentality of safe sex outside of marriage, as if sex was merely a physical thing with physical consequences like diseases/unwanted pregnancies only when in reality its spiritual…and no one can stop the wide range of spiritual consequences, like losing the ability to truly be intimate with someone or being one with people you’re tied to needlessly, that come from it…1 Corinthians 6:12-18) rather than warnned since they’re going to sin anyway rather than warning them will continue as long as people choose to see sin and the dangers thereof from the prespective of man rather than of God. If you notice, apart from acknowledging the various passages in scripture concerning sexual immorality in both the Old and New Testament, no one who chooses to maintain silence on the issue and claims to be for Christ mentions the warnings that Jesus Himself gave concerning sexual immorality. Even if the Bible never addresses things in code names like Aids or Sleeping Around/Living Together or even taboo subjects such as fondling/masturbation, the Word itself gives principles concerning how a believer, called by the Lord to be holy/pure asHe is (1 Peter 1:13-25), should behave his or her own self and how we, like you’re saying should flee from it (1 Corinthians 6, 1 Thessalonians 4, 2 Timothy 2:22-26, and many others). Not only that, but there are way too many instances in the Bible where the issues of sexual immorality…not just the acts but the things leading up to them…are discussed in detail (Proverbs 5 and 7, and take the storries of the lives of Samson, or David/Amnon and Tamar and Solomon and so many others who played around with sexual sin and got burned by it…even in instances where the Word may not explicitly say it was wrong, the consequenes of their actions alone show the destructiveness/evil of it. Furthermore, again even if phrases such as “Aids” or whathave you are never mentioned in the Bible, the Word and Jesus Himself made many mentions of the dangers of lust…which as John Piper said is “sexual desire minus holiness toward/honor for God or your neighbor”…and it’s lust that we’re commanded by the Word to not even have a hint of to begin with(Ephesians 5:3-4) since, like Jesus made clear, anything promoting lust is what leads to sexual sin/destruction to begin with and what should be avoided at all costs:

-Matthew 5:27-30-
Adultery
27″You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’[a] 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

I definately feel where you’re coming from, but until we as a church begin to see sexual sin and even sexuality from the perspective of the One who made it and take seriously the consequences (temporary and eternal) that come from it, what hope is there really for improvement?

In light of all of the false solutions given to those dealing with sexual immorality, I think that Steve Gallagher of “Pure Life Ministries” states it best in an article concerning the issue:The Dangerous Mindset of Lust

By Steve Gallagher

The Dangerous Mindset of Lust

By Steve Gallagher

In spite of the fact that sexual sin was widespread under the surface in the Church, it was hardly ever discussed openly in 1986 when I founded Pure Life Ministries. Men who struggled were terrified that if they were discovered they would be ostracized by fellow church members. The fear was legitimate.

Gratefully, this has changed, and today sexual sin is talked about openly. Those who struggle are no longer stigmatized and treated as outcasts as they once were. After all, lust is “Every Man’s Battle.” Indeed, the new catch-phrase in the Church is: “God hates the sin but loves the sinner.”

Yes, much has changed for the good in the past 18 years. And yet, I fear that the pendulum has swung too far in the opposite direction. Could it be that in our attempt to show compassion to those bound up in sin that we have minimized the evil nature of the sin? In our rush to assure fallen men that “God loves the sinner,” have we forgotten that He also “hates the sin?” Are we giving men the wrong message that God really isn’t too concerned about wickedness?

Unlike many today, Jesus spoke of lust in the most sobering and even frightening terms. For instance, we are all familiar with the passage dealing with lust and masturbation in the Sermon on the Mount:

You have heard that it was said, “You shall not commit adultery;” but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell. (Matthew 5:27-30)

Before we blow over these well-known (and to many, worn out) words, we should stop to examine an important term Jesus used in this passage: stumble (Gk. skandalizo). It seems as though Jesus is saying, “If you occasionally have a spiritual lapse, you must sever the cause of it lest you be sent to hell.” How could that be the case? Would Jesus really send a man to hell because he “stumbles” in sin every now and then? Since these words don’t seem to line up with our ideas about God’s grace (”God loves the sinner”), most people tend to think that Jesus really didn’t mean what He said. But I want to say that Jesus made no mistakes in His statements. He said exactly what He meant to say and it is very dangerous to assume otherwise.

One of the reasons these words aren’t taken very seriously by many men today is that the English translation used here is very weak. The Greek term skandalizo is much more alarming than our English term stumble. Perhaps glancing at a couple of other verses where this Greek word is used will give us a better sense of what it really means:

“And in a similar way these are the ones on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy; and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary; then, when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they fall away (skandalizo).” (Mark 4:16-17)

“And at that time many will fall away (skandalizo) and will deliver up one another and hate one another.” (Matthew 24:10)

In the context of these two passages, we can see that this term refers to spiritual apostasy. But is that really what Jesus is talking about? Isn’t this term also used in a less dramatic way? Yes, and that is precisely the point. The strength of Jesus’ statement about lust and masturbation should be understood in direct correlation to each individual’s situation.

For instance, if we are talking about a godly man who “walks with the Lord,” but then–in a moment of uncharacteristic weakness–succumbs to temptation and lusts or masturbates, but repents and gets back on track, that would rightly be termed “stumbling.” On the other hand, the word stumble would not be the appropriate term to use for the man who regularly indulges in lust or masturbation. His sin is causing him to fall away from the living God.

Many men I have dealt with over the years have deceived themselves about their sin. They like to say that they “struggle” with lust or masturbation, when the truth is that there really isn’t any struggle going on at all: they regularly give over to the passions of their flesh. Peter described men like this in the Church of his day: “They have eyes full of harlotry, insatiable for sin. They beguile and bait and lure away unstable souls. Their hearts are trained in covetousness (lust, greed)… Forsaking the straight road they have gone astray…” (II Peter 2:14-15 AMP)

This is the sort of man who I believe Jesus is addressing in this passage: men who are habitually sinning. They don’t occasionally slip into the gutter; they live there. It would be very foolish for such men to minimize the gravity of Jesus’ words in this passage. He only used the term hell in a handful of occasions; in this case he used it twice. The implication of His words is unmistakable.

The deception many fall prey to is that since they remain faithful in their church attendance, they can’t be considered as apostates. A backslider is someone who has thrown off all semblances of Christianity and is living in open sin. However, much of the Bible is taken up with the hypocrisy of those who “honor Me with their lips but their hearts are far from Me.”

The context of Jesus’ statements in Matthew 5 revolves around the heart, the inward life. The point Jesus made that is even though a man may not be committing actual fornication the very fact that his heart is full of lust makes him just as guilty as if he were actually practicing it. Thus, it is possible for an individual to fall away from God in his heart even though he still maintains an outward semblance of religion.

The true telling factor of whether a man will face the terrible sentence pronounced by “He who has been given authority to execute judgment,” is not whether or not he is sitting in church every week, but what is going on inside him. Those who have “gone astray” and “fallen away” in their hearts, would do well to drop to their knees and cry out to God for a spirit of repentance. God can restore innocence to every heart that truly desires it , truly cries out to Him for it.”(http://www.purelifeministries.org/Unchained/2006/Jul_06/Articles/072406_SG_Dangerous_Mindset.htm, or http://www.purelifeministries.org)

Visit the PLM Bookstore

Sample Chapter: Overcoming Lust

You have to really “look” for these statistics though, because much of what we hear (concerning “pure” numbers) are manipulated as they are funded by many pro-organizations in support of homosexual lifestyles.

Their object is really to focus on the dilemma and not the heinous acts (undealt with sin) of men on men.

Basically a smokescreen. Sounds good, grabs your attention….but is not the heart (or core) of the matter. Almost the agenda of a fast talking preacher.

Crafty manipulation. The agenda is to focus upon ANY placebo group instead of the heart of the matter, we allow by our ignorance to be as guilty as anyone.

Kinda like silence (or even willfull ignorance) = consent.

Just as Jonah was instructed to deliver a message to the people of Ninveh, the fact that he initially ran from the issue made him just as susceptible as the Ninevites to being destroyed …..maybe even apparently more susceptible because he had an express charge from GOD to speak, but didn’t - and what nearly killed him was his own unwillingness to stand as he was instructed…..much like many of us today.

Especially at this point (after all these years, and with all the tools of communication at our disposal), if the worldwide, omnipresent, saturation methodology of information on the disease hasn’t produced results, it’s well past time to realize that you can’t educate people out of sin.

That shouldn’t be a shock, because sin is not a product of ignorance. It’s a product of our nature. Man’s nature doesn’t change via education. Education merely affords him more sophisticated means of rationalizing his sin and minimizing its impact upon himself (temporarily).

Once again, lest I be misunderstood, I am a STRONG advocate of education. I even desire that AIDS education continue and expand.

BUT……….education is not THE answer. Christ is. Education does help. But it cannot cure what ails the nature of man, and that sin nature is why the epidemic continues virtually unabated.

And to have ministers of the Gospel jump on the condom train, with nary a whisper about Christ, is pathetic. It’s a sell out. It’s cowardly. It’s about gain in the world’s eyes.

and i thought the cases among gay men was tampering off…i thought it was heterosexual women (in particular black women) where the numbers were skyrocketing…

but anyway, this discussion was more about these “ministers” role and their “true” intentions….

Just exactly how many people do you suppose don’t know that promiscuous sex elevates the possibility of contracting AIDS??

If they want to educate AND promote condom use to prevent AIDS, I suggest they start by educating these dingbats that the latex in condoms does diddly-squat, since the virus is far smaller than the microscopic voids in the latex of the condoms.

We’ve had 30 years of AIDS education aimed at the gay community, yet the incidents of AIDS in gay males is skyrocketing. You can’t educate someone out of sin………only Christ can free them.

And to have supposed “ministers” of Christ like Tricky Ricky Warren and Tricky D Jakes ardently advocating anything less is pathetic. It’s nothing but a means of garnering political power, fame, and the respect of a corrupt world.

but if he aint preachin, “FLEE FORNICATION” it’s meaningless.
I think the biggest crock out there in the church today is the teaching that they are going to do it anyway, so at least tell them to wear a condom. And they are saying this in the church. So it is left up to those of us who believe in truth to continue to sound the alarm, no only on false teachers, but also share the gospel, and not in some watered down, New House New car version. But the absolute truth of the word of God.

binks

am i correct in thinking you mean AIDS education (and other related topics)? if that is the case, you would be surprised at just how much people don’t know…there are quite few adults that are grossly misinformed and therefore pass that same wrong information along to young people. we recently had a 2-day abstinence seminar at our church (notice i said ABSTINENCE, and not sex-ed or STD-ed…) and one session was strictly for the parents…some of the things they were talking about and asking had me floored….

Was it “nads” or “testicular” that did me in?? LOL!!!!

But it LOOKS better to have the world see you as “progressive” and “thoughtful” in dealing with this crisis………..as if free condoms and “education”(as if they don’t already know all this) can circumvent the effects of unrepented sexual sin.

The answer is to offer these folks the GOSPEL, undiluted, and unapologetically.

But TD doesn’t have the ‘nads to do it.

Are we sure TD doesn’t stand for “Testicular Deficiency”??

binks

Jakes Raising AIDS Awareness
DALLAS, TX , On Saturday, December 2, 2006 Bishop T.D. Jakes, the Metroplex Economic Development Corporation (MEDC) and The Potter’s House Counseling Center launched , It’s Time to Step Up! , a comprehensive national and international HIV/AIDS awareness campaign that targets the faith community, women and minority populations. The kick-off rally at The Potter’s House featured free on- site HIV testing, and in an effort to encourage the community to test, Bishop Jakes and The Potter’s House associate pastors will also publicly test for the disease.
“More has to be done,” says Bishop Jakes, “to halt the spread of this preventable and treatable disease and to address these frightening circumstances in the lives of all our brothers, sisters and children wherever they may live. We believe everyone has a role to play in educating the community about the challenges and issues surrounding this pandemic. As one of the largest predominately African-American churches in the nation, The Potter’s House is stepping up and taking action as part of a national and global offensive against HIV/AIDS.”

The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) estimates that each year approximately 40,000 U.S. citizens are newly infected with HIV/AIDS, the equivalent of 4.5 new infections each hour. It’s Time to Step Up! is born out of the success of several HIV/AIDS workshops and testing events sponsored by The Potter’s House and held in 2006, including HIV testing of more than 600 attendees of MegaFest 2006. It’s Time to Step Up! will advocate and encourage HIV/AIDS awareness, education, prevention, testing and optimal treatment and serve as a call to action to the faith community.

Representing less than a quarter (13%) of the U.S. population, African Americans reportedly account for approximately half of the people currently diagnosed with HIV and AIDS. “From our very young to our most senior citizens, African Americans are dying prematurely and with greater frequency as a result of HIV/AIDS,” says Bishop Jakes. “Beyond our nation’s shores, AIDS has reached epidemic proportions, particularly so in Africa where an unprecedented number of orphaned children are literally raising themselves.” Bishop Jakes welcomed a number of celebrity guests, including gospel singer Dave Hollister and The Swaziland Redemption Choir of Swaziland, Africa. Choir members, all of whom are HIV positive, travel the world raising HIV/AIDS awareness.

“Twenty-five years after AIDS was made a national issue, the HIV infection is reportedly the No. 2 cause of death in the African-American community,” says Dr. Nicole McCann, Director of Counseling Services at The Potter’s House. “As a result, the faith community is challenged to rise above our preconceptions about HIV/AIDS and demonstrate unconditional love for all of humanity.”

It’s Time to Step Up! is supported in part by Pfizer Inc.

Whatcha Think.