This posting is not going to be like most of the others. I would like for you to discuss the following question:
Is Holy Hip Hop a valid expression of Christian worship and a valid tool for evangelizing?
I have heard some fairly passionate views on both sides. This is an opportunity to discuss it.
If you would, please present your argument from scripture. Don’t mindlessly repeat a verse. For instance, I’m sure someone will come out of the gate saying we are supposed to be in the world and not of the world. And another will say that we are not to be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of our minds.
If you give those verses, also discuss what it means to be conformed or transformed, what it means to be in and not of. For instance, I wear clothes as a way of conforming to the world (and to keep from grossing out the general populace). I sent my kids to school as a conformation. Are these wrong?
Give an answer, not just a knee jerk reaction.
And have fun.
Worship ? Not so much corporate worship (I don’t believe it has a place on Sunday morning - some would disagree with me) as maybe individual worship. Some lyrics of some songs could very easily have folk break into doxology and prayer (and I’m talking specifically about folks like the Cross Movement, Flame, shai linne, Timothy Brindle, CHRISTcentric, and Voice) because of the heavy Biblical content and desire to show forth the glory of God in this area too.
Evangelism ? Yes. Definitely.
On top of it, folks I’ve named (and there are others), have formal training (Ambassador from CM has a Th.M from DTS and is currently doing a church plant in North Philly, for example).
Be sure - there’s a lot of folk in HHH who ain’t spittin’ gospel and solid theology, just like in the rest of the church. One must be discerning about who they listen to, as the music you listen to and the message contained therein will affect your behavior.
I think that alot of people are responding to the “hip hop is not of GOd” statement because of this ex minister (ya’ll need to check his doctrine, btw) and not because of their own experience. If you have not listened to any christian hip hop that is biblical based, then you have no right to make a judgement. If you are open to listening to some bilbically based christian hip hop (sorry, you do have to make a distinction) than google those examples that BC has offered.
Biblically based Christian hip hop has been a blessing to me, as “mainstream gospel” does nothing but sing the same ol’ cliches and lacks creativity, if you find a good christian hip hop cd, you can receive many sermons to beats.
A question - Is a Jazz version of Amazing Grace bringing the world into the Church? Why or why not?
Personally, “No!” because I believe the very word, jazz, itself is a drawing card. The world will be drawn to the word “jazz” itself as long as it’s not accompanied by “righteous-sounding” rhetoric. They, like I (who truly like straight-up jazz), will be listening solely to the music. It’s the music that takes you where you want to be. Most of the time, people don’t even listen to the words, though they may “hear” them. They’re too busy “getting their groove on” from the music. We finite human beings don’t realize the power of music alone. It can spark the growth of seeds already planted or can evoke aberrant behavior in strange and uncharted waters if you habitually listen to certain variations of it. It can also calm one’s mind. Remember the story of King Saul having to call for David and his instrument to calm his (Saul’s) mind? We, as followers of Christ, are warned to “guard our hearts with all diligence.” This includes sounds–with or without the rhetoric. Try the spirit behind the sound. Think about it.
BlackCalvinist:
Hi, I’m not clear on who is doing a church plant in North Philly. I’m from Philly - just curious…..
Thanks!
2Blessed
Ambassador from the Cross Movement. He’s the guy with the ‘C’ hat on in the front of the picture. He’s got a Th.M from Dallas Theological Seminary. Ephiphany Fellowship is their church. The other minister he’s planting with (Eric Mason), went to college with me. CM has a good history in ministry since 98 or so when they all dropped their first album and they definitely aren’t in it for any other reason but to glorify God and evangelize the lost.
August 19, since you’re in Philly, why don’t you pop in to the release party for Steven the Levite’s CD “To Die is Gain” ? It’ll be at the Rotunda. I’ll be driving up from MD (more than likely).
Like I stated before Christian rap is all good but we can’t take a ungodly culture and flip it and call it holy…now when u look at these ‘holy hiphoppers’ a couple of years ago they rap about Christ now they are rapping about how the Church needs hiphop to reach the youth…I don’t know about yall but that’s a spit in God’s face! Jesus stated all u need to do is lift him up and HE WILL DRAW ALL MEN UNTIL HIM! Now for scripture if u look in Deuteronomy 7 God told his children when u go into the land don’t do after them that’s because there cultures rested on ungodly beliefs..
Romans 12:2 (Whole Chapter)
Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is–his good, pleasing and perfect will.
also nowhere in the bible music was used to witness! we could use it as entainment
What do you think about the psalms?
See many people are supporting illusions in the church. it is the Spirit of God that draws man to God. You have Pastor supporting these artist for what they can get out of it tithes and offering. Dollar, Jakes, P.White,these leaders are also deceived and darkness run deep for an offering. The is no such thing as holy hip hop, that just like holy budda, holy satanism. people are so blind because they don’t study the word. and unlearning is destroying the youth of america, parent are doing the same thing listening to hip hop. God said come out of the world don’t copy them.I pray that the eyes of your understanding is open soon before it’s too late.
Lets define evangilism - 1. Zealous preaching and dissemination of the gospel, as through missionary work.
2. Militant zeal for a cause.
I would say for most HHH’ers the later explanation probably applies IMHO.
My question to any HHH’er would be are you using hermeneutics (The theory and methodology of interpretation, especially of scriptural text.) or exegesis (Critical explanation or analysis, especially of a text.) or apologetics (The branch of theology that is concerned with defending or proving the truth of Christian doctrines.) while writing and rapping your music. If take a look at the this link (from KRS One’s own mouth no less) http://www.beliefnet.com/story/42/story_4222_1.html , I think it is rather clear. If most of the HHH’ers are associated with this belief (and I see nothing to disuade me otherwise), I’m sorry it’s a cult movement, nothing more. Again, read what he believes, and I quote ” We believe that not only is hip-hop divine, but the temple is divinely ordained, because we accept it as that. And in accepting that hip-hop is of divine origin, our temple becomes sanctioned by our God.”
That last statement says it all. I’m not sure what god he is talking about, but I am sure, no positive it is not the God of Jacob, Isaac and Moses.
What kind of music truly honors God? Ernest Pickering lists ten primary guidelines for Christians to follow (The Kind of Music That Honors God, pp. 11-12):
1. Its message is Scriptural (Col 3:16). Good Christian music must present a message that is true to the Word of God and doctrinally sound.
2. It should lead us to think in Biblical patterns and not be suggestive of evil either in message or in musical arrangement (Phil. 4:8). The text and music should not be cheap or tawdry.
3. It should help us to honor God with our bodies (I Cor. 6:19-20). Music which tends to imitate the effects of godless rock upon the human body or which either destroys or impairs one’s hearing is not Christian music.
4. It will maintain a balance between “spirit” and “understanding” (I Cor. 14:15). Music that is primarily emotional froth would not fulfill this requirement.
5. It will contain words that are full of beauty, dignity, reverence and simplicity, words that are worthy of the worship of a holy God (Isa. 6:1-6).
6. It will be free of mental association with worldly musical styles and evidence a holy consecrated character (Rom. 12:2; I Jn. 2:15). Music that seeks to “copy” the worldly approach is not honoring to God.
7. It should be expressive of the peace that accompanies the Christian life, not the clamor, confusion, din, and turmoil of the world (Col. 3:15-16). The various forms of rock music do not contribute to peace of heart but partake of the constant jangle of the sinful world. Christ promises peace to His people (Jn. 14:27).
8. It should be characterized by musical preciseness, finesse of poetic technique, and should evidence a structure of harmony and order. God is a God of order and not disorder (I Cor. 14:40).
9. It should promote and accompany a life-style of godliness, modesty, and holy quietness, and not modish fashion, suggestive acts, or sexual aggressiveness (1 Pe. 1:16; Tit. 2:11-12).
10. It should not contribute to the temptation of new or weak believers (Rom. 14:13,21; 15:2). Music that reminds newly-saved converts of their old life of sin is to be abhorred and rejected
William Booth, founder of the Salvation Army (judge them by their fruits, people) taught reaching the lost with contemporary songs. “There is a brand new voice for each generation but the Spirit gives the inspiration. So change the style and change the pattern, change the rhythm and change the song, change the singers and change musicians but don’t change the message or else you’ve gone wrong.” (Christafari).
Protestant Reformer Martin Luther said “I am not of the opinion that all arts are to be cast down and destroyed on account of the Gospel, as some fanatics protest. On the other hand, I would gladly see all arts, especially music, in the service of Him who has given and created them. I therefore pray that every pious Christian would be pleased with this [the use of music in the service of the gospel] and lend his help if God has given him like or greater gifts. As it is, the world is too lax and indifferent about teaching and training the young for us to abet this trend. God grant us his grace. Amen.”
Eph. 5:18,19 — And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; Speaking to yourselves in psalms [score] and hymns [character] and spiritual songs [lyrics], singing and making melody [music] in your heart to the Lord;
Col. 3:16 — Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms [score] and hymns [character] and spiritual songs [lyrics], singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
So - the music must be a channel for correct doctrine, and (a) its lyrics should be edifying, spiritually oriented, clear, conforming to Biblical truth, and point our focus to Jesus Christ, (b) its score (the arrangement of the musical notes) should not overshadow the message conveyed by the lyrics, but should compliment it, and (c) its character (the “attitudes” in the music and of the performers) should be consistent with the purity of the message it claims to convey (reverence, worshipful, etc.).
Not all rap is crap, people , check out shai lynne at LampMode:
http://www.lampmode.com/solus.htm
Great guestions Bro. Melvin.
There are certain things that are essential to both the Secular and the Christian world. Example: School and clothes. Hip Hop is not one of them, no matter how, who or why.
The bible tells us that we parish from the lack of knowledge. Well, that means I should go out and get as much knowledge as possible. That means going to school and since I pay taxes as Jesus say I should, and my taxes pay for the schools and the books, and the teachers, then I have the right to use them just as the world does.
Yes the bible does state that we are in this world and not of this world, but we miss the first part. We are in this World. That means, if gas prices or even taxes continue to increase, because I am in this world, these increases affect me too. The key is, how I respond or react to these increases. Do I respond or react the way the world reacts, or am I as stated in Matt. 5:13-16.
Simply wearing clothes is not comforming to this world. How I wear them could be. For example, wearing a pair of pants up to my waist rather than below my waist, or a blouse that covers me as the scripture state, or wearing it where I leave nothing to the imagination. If I were still in the world living like the world with its sinfull nature,or simply a carnal Christian this might not matter, but if Christ lives in me then I am a new creature and I do as the scriptures command me. Old things or past away, all things have become new. This includes how I dress and the music I listen to.
Here are some lyrics from a song called “Bond servants”, by Timothy Brindle…
After reading, you tell me if Christ isn’t glorified in this song?…and I hope you will see that biblically sound hip hop can be used to reach the lost and that it can also edify the body of Christ.
“Bondservants”-Timothy Brindle ft. shai linne
Verse 1 (timothy)
We’re declared Justified (Romans 3:28)- Christ must have died
For our lust and pride so we could clutch the prize (1 Peter 3:18)
Disgusting guys thrust His side
With a customized, busted, rusty knife (John 19:34)
He was a victim of mockery (Mark 15:30-31)- afflicted,(Isaiah 53:7) socked and whipped (Luke 22:63)
(He) fulfilled Scriptures’ prophecy (Luke 24:27-Gen. 3:15, 12:2-4, 17:1-8, 49:10, Num. 21:9, Deut. 18:15, 2 Sam. 7:12-16, Psalm 2, 16:10, 22, 45:6-7, 69:9, 21, 72 and 110; Isaiah 7:14, 9:6-7, 28:16, and 53; Daniel 7:13-14, Micah 5:2, Zechariah 9:9 and12:10)
He sat in the penalty box for me (2 Cor. 5:21)
He steadily watches the enemy cautiously(Job 1:6-12)
Instead of Him telling me “cop a plea”
He settled the cost, my felony’s dropped- I’m free! (Rom. 8:1. Gal. 5:1)
So hug the Highness for His lovingkindness (Psalm 118:29, NASB)
Because of the Cross, now our crud’s behind us (Col. 2:14)
They punished Him first, He was led to slaughter (Isaiah 53:7)
I hunger and thirst for His bread and water (John 4:13-14; John 6:35)
You and I are hyped to be crucified with Christ (Gal. 2:20)
Who resides inside us, shining a truly guiding light! (John 8:12)
Chapter 35 of Isaiah told me this:
The Messiah is the “Highway of Holiness” (Isaiah 35:8-9)
He dissolved and He cleaned my grossly and rotten tongue
It’s for all who believe- The Only Begotten Son! (John 1:18 and 3:16)
but you wrap your ears so you don’t have to hear
But you cats will fear when He cracks the atmosphere! (Rev. 6:14-17)
I pray to the God of Abraham (Exodus 3:6, Acts 3:13)
That He could use this blazing jam to maybe save a man ( 1Cor. 9:19, 22)
Chorus
We’re Bondservants of Christ (Gal. 1:10)
For God’s purpose in Life:
To Spread the Gospel
This squad worships with mics
Jesus Saves- we’ve seen His ways
If you’ve been redeemed, then Scream this Praise!(repeat)
Verse 2 (shai linne)
I’d rather be a
janitor in God’s house than a prince on this earth (Psalm 84:10)
The more I think on
Christ, the more that I’m convinced of His worth (Rev. 5:9, 12)
Ever since the New Birth things haven’t been quite the same (2 Cor. 5:17)
Holy Spirit, please light the flame!
Feed the starved and parched Your Word carved in parts (Hebrews 4:12)
As I aim these sharpened darts at hardened hearts
With pinpoint accuracy- Unfathomably, God became a man (John 1:1,14) and took the wrath that was actually for me! (Isaiah 53:5, 10a)
But He stood in my place (2 Cor. 5:21)
I’m immaculate and free because He took my disgrace (Isaiah 53:4)
Lyrical kids who storm tracks- I was once on that
But now I strictly form raps to warn cats
About the coming wrath of the Holy One (2 Thess. 7-9)
Run in the path of His Only Son
Or get cut in half by the smoking gun
That’s aimed at your soul- (Psalm 7:11-12) Behold, the Main Factor
Jehovah- fame snatcher, Potentate, Master (Psalm 33:10-11)
Of Sacred data that’s making Satan madder
God-haters splatter under the weight of Jacob’s ladder (Gen. 28:10-13)
Because sin’s cost is incomprehensible (Psalm 49:7-8)
When caught in the jaws of the Invincible
Boss and Principal whose Laws are sensible (Psalm 19:7)
By contrast, our ways are insane (Isaiah 55:8-9)
The Cross is the pinnacle
While time lasts, we’re making it plain
Chorus
We’re Bondservants of Christ (Gal. 1:10)
For God’s purpose in Life
The lost search for the light
This squad worships with mics
Jesus Saves- we’ve seen His ways
If you’ve been redeemed, then Scream this Praise!
Verse 3 (shai linne)
God is closer than He appears
like the objects in a side-view mirror (Jeremiah 23:23-24)
I’m hear to provide you clearer
Insight as I write in a candle-lit room
Of how Christ took flight and abandoned the tomb (Mark 16:2-6)
It’s bad to assume you understand- imagine your gloom
When you see the Son of Man in His majesty suit!(Rev. 6:16)
His control is absolute (Isaiah 46:10-11)- He lets the twilight shine
And His Holy attributes stretch the finite mind (Job 11:7-8)
Inscrutable- (Rom. 11:33, Isaiah 40:28d, Psalm 147:5b)
He shines above with His Godly essence
Immutable-(Malachi 3:6, James 1:17) Divine Love (Psalm 136) and Omnipresence (Psalm 139:7-8, Prov. 15:3)
Infinitely Just (Deut. 32:4), which means danger for the lost (Deut. 32:35)
Intimate with us ’cause Jesus took His anger on the cross! (Rom. 5:1)
(timothy)
So let’s begin the feast (Rev. 19:9) with the Prince of Peace (Isaiah 9:6f)
In the Kingdom we can sing him hymns with beats!
His Name is matchless!(Philippians 2:9) He gave us tactics (Rom. 12:6-8)
To proclaim Him like that famous baptist (Luke 3:16)
His throne stands the strongest,(Psalm 110:1-2) He owns the promised land
He’s so grand and honest (Rev. 3:14)- He broke hands from bondage (Rev. 1:5b)
I hope man’s acknowledged what the chosen Lamb accomplished! (Heb. 9:12)
So let’s serve in His likeness, (1 John 3:16) I fervently write this
God put on armpits (John 1:14) and lived perfectly righteous! (Hebrews 7:26)
There’s a tabernacle in my Adam’s apple
Jesus won the war, so we don’t have to battle!!!
Chorus
We’re Bondservants of Christ (Gal. 1:10)
For God’s purpose in Life
The lost search for the light
This squad worships with mics
Jesus Saves- we’ve seen His ways
If you’ve been redeemed, then Scream this Praise!
Speaking as a musician, I would have to say that every style of music has been demonized by the church. During the medieval period, playing a minor note was considered demonic. Then the church evolved, and some of the most beautiful classical music and chant were written in minor keys. Many American “slave songs” that were forbidden during that time in the church are now sang with fervor in predominantly white congregations. The same with jazz, gospel, and “hippie” like Christian songs. Many of the “old” hymns that we remember singing as children would have been unacceptable at one point or the other in the evolution of church music. Remember that God is the master musician and that he covers all musical genres because music was created to glorify His name.
There are many songs that are sang in the church that have been labeled as “appropriate” but their content would say otherwise. Songs that are so casual with the name of God and the presence of the Holy Spirit, like Karen Clark-Sheard’s “Holy Spirit, you are welcome.” I mean the song say, “Holy Spirit, … come on in and take a seat” for crying out loud. I personally have a problem with that statement because I find it irreverent.
So many Christian songs are self-centered, prosperity based, and irreverent.
But I look at Christian Hip Hop as a spoken word ministry that can glorify or blaspheme God just like any other musical style.
It’s not so much the style or genre, but the message. And I have been moved to tears by many spoken word pieces. Many have compelled me to worship.
I do, however think that we cross the line when we are pursuing Hip Hop in the Christian world as a means to justify maintaining the worldly Hip Hop lifestyle and culture. And if God owns a cattle on a thousand hills, then He doesn’t NEED Hip Hop to make Him viable or “legitimate”. He’s God and He doesn’t need music period to speak to the hearts of man. But He does choose to use it sometimes. And that’s ok. Because He’s God, and He is sovereign. So the question is not genre but:
1. Does the song glorify God?
2. Is it biblically sound
3. What is the obvious motive? Meaning, is it God focused or self-centered. Even if it tells a story, or offers testimony, it should still point to God.
I think these are good questions…
Intention and relevance are important…
Bondservants is an *excellent* example of Christ-centered lyricism.
I personally love shai’s song “Justified”, which is his very simple exposition of Romans 3:12-24. Verse by verse.
BTW, I mentioned Steven the Levite earlier - he and muzeONE are the group ‘Redeemed Thought’. They are also on Lampmode records (and someone already posted the link).
You’ll also want to check out Flame:http://www.flame314.com and CHRISTcentric: http://www.CHRISTcentric.net.
As thankfull said above, most people who complain against it commit a genetic fallacy - they equate ALL hip hop with holy hip hop and that’s simply not the case. Some good rebuttals have already been laid out on here, so I hope that the person above who was very quick to do exactly what Melvin said don’t do (and just jump out with Romans 12:2) would take the time to read through.
Black,
I wanted to put the lyrics to “Justified” up, but I couldn’t find them.
You are right it a wonderful song, that shows the use of scripture in Hip Hop/rap music.
Check out this link reachrecords.com (Lecrae and Tedashi)
These young men of God sound like they are preaching to music…it is a blessing to me and my family to have this for our youth, we should support those who are doctrinally sound.
I know these gentleman. My husband worked with Tedashi. I enjoy their music.
Personally, I don’t care for “hip hop”. It simply isn’t for me.
That said, I cannot reject it outright as a viable tool for evangelism/edification. It all comes down to some very essential elements that are the measuring stick for preaching as well………the soundness of the doctrine espoused and the object of the glorification.
Sound doctrine can be presented in many forms. But it can be derailed if the motive is not the glorification of God alone. If both elements are present and in their proper relationship, I have no problem with the format being discussed here.
Luther set some of his most majestic hymns to melodies which were familiar to anyone who frequented the taverns of his day. That was considered scandalous by many of his contemporaries as well.
Hip Hop was formed in the world.Can you serve two masters? Some of these acts wanted to rap in the secular world but they never made it.In my opinion the church and Hip Hop do not mix. When I listen to Kurt Franklin’s songs, I just start dancing because of the beat.The song may have words to uplift Christ but sometimes it’s hard to distinguish between the two.Enjoy at your own risk. I’ve heard some of the artist mimic Tupac Shakur’s voice and style. I believe one of them sounds just like Biggie Smalls. I know I maybe old fashioned but I’ll stick to traditional Gospel music.Some of the gospel music today is “empty”, I guess what I’m trying to say is the music is missing something.Jesus Christ!
“Some of these acts wanted to rap in the secular world but they never made it”
Maybe they never made it in the secular world because God did not want it to be so. Maybe He wanted them to use their gift to glorify Him and sing His praises. Maybe God was showing them there was another Way…
I think this may be a possibility why they never made it in the secular world. They were convicted in their actions and God spoke to their hearts.
Could that be a possibility?
This my story and I am sticking to it. Hip Hop does not belong in the church. I am sorry if I may offended someone.We all are entitled to our own opinion. Thanx for the reply!
(MN: No problem. Just tell me why from Scripture. )
Luke Chapter16:13, No servant can serve two masters:for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else will hold to the one, and despise the other.Ye can not serve God and mamon.
Does anybody know how hip hop started? If we want to bring it into the church we have to first look at how it originated. I read this book about a year ago titled “The Hip Hop Generation” by Bakari Kitwana. I don’t want to get into lengthy details of hip hop’s corrupt origin but it was birth in the early 70s as a cultural way of thinking that’s against bringing glory to God and against relying on the power of the Holy Spirit. I don’t care if the phrase “Holy” is used in it, this kind of thing should never be embraced by the church.
I know a lot of youth pastors like to use hip hop as a way of evangelism to young people but I would think that proclaiming the pure word of God aided by the power of the Holy Spirit should be enough. You don’t have to use gimmicks to effectively minister to people and that’s all holy hip hop is, a gimmick, a big compromise. Music is used for praise and worship and not for edification. Edification comes from reading and studying passage of scripture, sharing and fellowshipping with other believers.
Katina mentioned that God is the master musician and that He covers all musical genres because music was created to glorify His name. I believe that, but I also believe that what ever God has created man has perverted. Who created sex….God did. Who perverted that? Same with music, hip hop is a perverted form of music and since it’s from the world we should never let it set a model for the church. The church should set a model for the world and not the other way around.
Hip hop is from the world. God wants us to stop loving the things of the world. He wants us to wipe away the old and become new creatures (2 Corinthians 5:17) and to be Holy and acceptable in His presence.
The Cross Movement is back to ’spark the Holy Culture”.
They have been blessed to grace many exciting events, and have headlined their own tour. Why? Of course, for the sake of winning souls to Jesus and for discipleship.
Gospelflava.com caught up with Tonic, TRU-LIFE and Ambassador to talk about the recent album and some of the current issues in the Christian hip hop community.
Gospelflava.com: The Cross Movement has been considered as the trailblazers in the Christian Hip Hop scene for some time now. How do accept that responsibility?
Tonic: For a long time, we weren’t even sure if that was the case. We are just trying to be faithful to the mission that God gave to us.
I think that over time (with a lot of people telling us that), when we got to see the true state of Christian hip hop up against the rest of the industry, we started to agree that the Lord had given us –I don’t know about trailblazers –but at least a small piece of responsibility.
(MN: Read the rest of the very interesting interview here (http://www.gospelflava.com/articles/crossmovement.html) )
Y do they need to look at the world to see what kind of sound they are making(beats) if you are truly operating in the Spirit? and y would u endorse a group that don’t sing Jesus Jesus(didn’t Tonex say that?) I forgot what song they did but Ambass rap Christ Rules Everything Around Me(Spin off of what the Wu tang rap about) so when people hear that they are no longer thinking about God they are thinking about that Wu-tang song! It’s just like put Gospel lyrics to a seclaur beat u ain’t thinking about God no more u r thinking about where u was when that song was hot!
C. Taylor…
I have to disagree with your premise. That the line “Christ rules everything around me” will make people think of the the Wu-Tang song instead of God. Anyone who truly listens to hip hop lyrics will tell you that the line will make them think of the Wu-Tang song in light of Christ. Hip hoppers compare lyrics and make their judgements. Ambassador and Cross Movement (and the many others mentioned) point the listener to Christ. Isn’t that evangelizing, isn’t that sharing the Good News?
What people don’t realize is that the genre of rap music effectively communicates a lot more information (not necessarily more powerful information) than most other genres. Why would God use rap? To communicate to this generations’ short attention span by using those He has filled with His spirit and gifted for this purpose. Don’t believe me, visit Epiphany Fellowship’s Bible study. Listen to the Killing Sin album. Actually judge the tree by it’s fruits.
IF you still don’t agree… please list all the things that God can’t use to glorify his name. Then show me how hip hop in and of itself (apart from those who are actually committing the sins) is a sin.
Clothes can not sin on their own. A man wearing a doo rag is not sinning simply because he wears a doo rag.
Culture is not sinful, people are. Music cannot evangelize but Romans 10:17 says faith comes by hearing… hearing the Word of God. So if the brothers/sisters speak the Word in their songs…..
Holla at me, we can do this one on one till we’re both edified.
Be Blessed (and please help me to grow in understanding, as well)
Good comments…In response:
I think we all can agree that hip hop is a culture from music to clothes to speech, etc. If we are to not “embrace” hip hop in the church, do we also not embrace those young men and women who show up on the church steps to attend church who represent the hip-hop culture? Personally, I would not use the word “embrace”, but I think it would behoove the church to at the very least make attempts to understand the [whole] culture. Do we turn away the baggy pant, Timberland wearing, white t-shirt brother who want to come into the church house? Or do we make him go home and put on a shirt and tie? He is just as much “hip-hop” as the music. What do we do then?
How do you expect to receive the pure Word of God? Is the expectation that it come in preached Word only, or maybe just the Bible? Or can it come in a song and poetry, too? How you best receive the Word of God may not be the best way for someone else. I prefer not to confine how God moves to one or two particular ways.
I don’t agree that hip-hop in terms of evangelism is a gimmick. I think someone made a very good point earlier using the example of Mahalia Jackson. I think it has to do with “relevance” to the group of people you are trying to reach.
Yes, there are a lot of things that man has perverted, but there are innumerable things that God has made good. I think the comment you made concerning the perverted nature of hip hop can be said for a lot of things. So what do you do? Do you start removing things from your life that you believe are perverted until you are sitting around like a hermit? Or do you glorify God in all that you do…even in the environments that man has corrupted (i.e. your job)?
I think many of the responses on this subject are good (whether I agree or not). Where I have a little problem is that people are so quick to say no, don’t do this or no, don’t do that, but offer very little in terms of alternatives or their opinion on what could be a better way.
This dialogue has started me to think about the church’s reaction when Thomas Dorsey came on the scene with his style of music or when Edwin Hawkins came on with they style. The church said that Thomas Dorsey’s music came from the devil. The church probably said the same thing when other instruments outside of the piano, organ and drums were brought into the church…oh, I forget Psalms 150 was used to justify using other instruments. The internet is from the world, but we’re still using it. I wonder what else are we using from the world?
I believe all the comments made are great, and insightful!!! Thanks again Melvin for a great topic, it’s refreshin to have this sort of back and forth conversation, as iron should sharpen iron.
But,something no one has hit upon yet (that I haven’t seen) is the origin of music and it’s original use. The bible purports, God created music and a special music minister to lead the angels in worship toward him and him only (notice the word evangilizing is no where here). This minister was one of three angels Michael and Gabriel were the other two) that could only approach the throne of God in all it’s glory. The music minister had cymbals, pipes and strings (the backbone of all music today)(Isa 14 12-13) built into him as he lead the other angels in worship. But one day he became arrogant and prideful, wanting praise and worship for himself and to be worshipped like God, so God cast him out of heaven with a third of the heavenly hosts with him, casting him to earth where he became the prince of the air, where he resides today influencing man along the way. We of course know that was Lucifer former archangel and heavenly music musician. And nowhere in the bible does it say that his gifts were taken from him. So it stands to reason that his gifts still stand today as they did when he fell.
We know the church is under attack relentlessly both internally and externally (Eph 6 12), so we must be girded at all times. We are at war brothers and sisters, so we must know our enemy and his tactics as any good soldier would. One tactic we know Satan uses is to have something be like something, but be something else all together. And be able to spot the fake for what it is, a deception.
We all know the origins and roots of HHH, which came out of the despair of the streets some decades ago. The term didn’t really register with me, until I recently remember hearing it in a song back in the 90’s by the Poor Righteous Teachers “Rock Dis Funky Joint” (circa 1990) who were affiliated with muslims. So it’s interesting to see how it has evolved from where it was till now. IMHO, I believe that satan is using this medium to attack our youth, by again having something look like something, but be something else altogether.
The argument you always hear is that God can take anything bad and turn it into good (if thats the case why not have christian porn — I know it’s stupid to say this). I believe thats mans ego talking, the proverbial “we can’t reach the youth of today, so we are going to use the medium they already use to get to them to pull them out.” instead of relying on the Word we rely on oursleves and our way. People like Kirk Franklin say this all the time to justify why music is where it is today (which is why he is reviled and loved), however I do remember KF saying sometime ago that he was living a lie while in the clubs supposedly ministering to people, doing the same things he was supposedly railing against (a dog returning to it’s vomit (Pro 26 11).
I don’t believe music can save a person, or some movement spawned from a movement. Only your confession and acceptance of Jesus Christ can do that. I do believe the Holy Spirit and the Word have to be working in concert together to have an effect. Remember we are in the last days and times and have been since the day of Pentacost. So we will be encountering things that look, sound and act like Christ, but really aren’t.
Sorry about the long diatribe, but that’s my 2 cents…
Cosign. Great essay!
Salvation is of the LORD! It’s Gods work(not mans) from beginning to end. He is the author and finisher of our faith. The PREACHED word is the MEANS he uses to reach those he chose to save before the foundation of the world. Gods people are to LIVE in this world according to Gods word and therefore a LIGHT in darkness compelling men by our lives(conversation/witness). The PREACHED word, not gospel music, especially not the movies, or any form of entertainment/so call worship tool, is the God prescribed method to reaching Gods chosen people.
The “church” today is no different than Israel when God brought them out of Egypt. They had not been there 30 days good before they started complaining that they were better off in Egypt. They said they had plenty of all sort of foods and drink(worldy pleasures) and God delivered them and now they had nothing. They said God brought them out, to kill them. God gave them manna(Christ) they complained that that wasn’t enough, gave them quail til it came out of there ears which was sort of a rebuke because they complained so that he gave them just what they thought they needed.
Gods word provides us with ALL things pertaining to life and Godliness, why are we not content with Gods way? He knows what is best for His people, so why must we feel that we have to contribute or add to what God has already graciously given. Holy Hip Hop, Gospel Jazz and todays modern so-called gospel music is a sad sad immitation to what God has already supplied us with in the Psalms people.
God knows how to draw His people to himself. Let’s stick to the simplicity he’s prescribed, otherwise we complicate matters and send them down a very destructive course.
Do you listen to music at all? If so, what? In all seriousness…
If you have a problem with the “holy” hip hop, “gospel” jazz, and the like, can you maybe provide us with some music/artist you deem to be more appropriate (Godly or holy)?
Thanks
That is the work of the Holy Spirit.
I think alot of people just don’t like hip hop….I think the main thing is it is associated with today’s mainstream hip hop. I would like to ask somebody…what is gospel music? Does it have to have the death, burial, and ressurection in it to be qualified? If that is the case, if I listen to my local “gospel” station, I do not hear that. I hear about “your breakthrough is coming”, “your blessing is coming”, “the storm is over,” etc.
Some holyhiphop artists use hip hop to teach, cause as you see from this site, there are alot of people stuck up under “pimps” so the are not learning much.
So my ? is to those who say hip hop is worldly, what is not worldly? Just because footstompinhandclappin music is not popular does not make it not worldly. If I go down to New Orleans or somewhere in the south I can still hear that music, is that the lyrics are secular. There are still quartets around that sing lyrics that are secular…..so what’s the difference?
Tweet,
In all seriousness, while the issue here is music, the basic biblical principle of Godliness with contentment applies to every area of our lives. If we miss the point there we will try and incorporate almost everything that appeals to our flesh and call it evangelism or reaching the lost or one of the better catch phrases, “turning my heart toward worshipping God”. It is PRESUMPTION, and will worship.
To answer your question, which is beside the point, yes I do listen to music. Grew up in the COGIC church, I sing, come from a singing background all my life, then I learned the truth of Gods grace and instantly threw out all Fred Hammond, Winans, Commissioned, Yolanda Adams, Donnie Mc Clurkin etc. I wanted nothing to do with anyone who represented this show off, super talented, can curve up and down the scale, display my talent and evoke some sort of emotional response from the crowd and go buy my record artist. I don’t know the latest guys referred to and I don’t need to know what they are saying on there CD, it’s the whole flippant, irreverent attitude in our music that would even make us call it GOSPEL hip-hop, jazz or rap of all things. As though God needs our ingenuity to reach HIS PEOPLE. Yes it’s about the words, but it’s more importantly about HOW God said to PREACH the word, not think of some slick way to reach a certain age group. HIS people are His people, whether they are 3 or 93. GOD said to PREACH the word to them. And he told you to LIVE in front of them and study so when the opportunity comes to talk to them, you don’t have to play the latest gospel rap song with all the theologically sound lyrics, you can preach the gospel to them(in your role as a prophet, priest and king) and invite them to your local biblically sound church.
Hope that helps, and I will get you the names of some of the cd’s I listen to now.
Peace
Yes, I would appreciate the names of some of the CD’s you listen to. I thought my question was valid (not one that was besides the point). My question was asked for a frame of reference, which I think this site as a whole provides. There are a lot of things said on this site that don’t ring true for me, but that does not stop me from investigating it further…Maybe my mind will change….
I couldn’t agree more with renay. All of these so-called ways to reach people in the hip hop genre just does not bear weight, in my opinion. We keep thinking that we’re coming up with ways to “help God” reach the lost in the hip hop culture so to speak, because that’s the only way that they would “understand” or be interested in the gospel, and that couldn’t be further from the truth. We keep hearing that it’s not enough to just preach Jesus Christ and him crucified as Paul did in 1 Cor 2:1,2…but for some reason, we need to keep enhancing the message by putting a few funky beats in it and making it rhyme. Maybe we need to come up with some gospel country music because we need to reach the lost in the Ozarks and other(Excuse my crassness, but I’m making a point)”hillbilly” places. Or how about gospel heavy metal music to reach the headbangers. My point is, that we seem to think we have to always alter or enhance God’s message so that we can “save souls,” when it’s GOD and His holy spirit who draws all men to Christ. Nobody can say that Jesus is Lord but by the holy spirit. I won’t say that “holy hip hop” isn’t making some people more interested in the gospel, but my question is, are we sowing our seed on stony ground where people are hearing the word with gladness(Filling the churches on Sunday mornings)yet have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time:afterward, when affliction or persecution arises for the word’s sake, immediately they are offended? Or even on thorny ground where they hear the word, and soon the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches and lusts of other things choke the word, and make it unfruitful?
Hip hop, to me, is a violent culture. You can see it and hear it in the secular brand of the music and the videos. Most of it is angry, it glorifies violence, it blasts authority figures, it demeans women, and you see many of the people immersed in it…even those claiming to be christians, getting into all kinds of trouble with the law. I have a difficult time thinking that anything changes with this particular genre of music just because you add the word “holy” to it, and insert a few “praise God”’s and “hallelujahs” to the songs.
“Is Holy Hip Hop a valid expression of Christian worship and a valid tool for evangelizing?”
Yes, and Yes.
Ya’ll remember when Peter wouldn’t eat what God said was clean? Let’s not go around calling something that’s proclaiming the good news of Jesus Christ “dirty”. Holy Hip Hop is lifting up the name of Jesus and men are being drawn.
ThaWatcher, are you talking about that scripture in the book of Acts? If so God was trying to demonstrate something to Peter. That scripture has nothing to do with this co-mingling of gospel and hip hop.
God was showing Peter that he was about to openly include the Gentiles into the church and Peter was the man he was sending with the message of salvation to the gentile nations, that God is not a respecter of persons, but that in every nation he that feareth God and worketh righteousness is accepted with God. But God has not changed his standard or the means to reaching the lost.
We can’t get pass Gods way whether we label it an exceptable or valid expression of worship, a way to draw other cultures or whatever. Gods standards for HIS people are not bound by time or cultures, He never changes and the same power he displayed in creation is the same power he moves by to change the stony dead heart to a heart of flesh and love Him who we are born hating and could not nor would not choose him. And he sent the man of God to preach the word, he didn’t send the heavenly choral to proclaim the good news.
Again, it is PRESUMPTUOUS.
Also, did I read that one of the artist wrote that he was doing what God called him to do.
There is nothing wrong with “holy” hip-hop. I grew up in the 80’s and 90’s, I was raised on it. If it is truly Christian in nature then why not. The form of music doent make it holy or un holy, the lyrics and intent of the music does. There are plenty of other kinds of music that are secular, but are non offensive (ie. jazz, classical ect.). But some of us are so holy, and (allegedly) dont listen to secular music. Therefore, they wouldnt know about any of what I am talking about. They watch TV though, that’s secular, they go to work, that’s secular too…..lol, and truth be told, they listen to secular music too……..I got some of those types in my church, but you always catch them…….lol
You say work is secular? Only if you allow it. Work can be a platform for witnessing. If you do your job unto the Lord (you know come on time, be reliable, be honest, show good work ethics) it came become holy :-).
To NCW:
Can’t the reasoning you stated above be true for the topic at hand? Cannot holy hip hop be a platform of witnessing?
If not, where is the line drawn on “secular” things that one does unto the Lord?
I think we make too much of the evangelism aspect of ANY music. CAN it be used by God that way??
Yes……….but my experience is that music is very seldom a drawing implement for sinners.
It is much more common that music can be used to edify those who have already been drawn into Christ.
Playing HHH as your primary tool to evangelize is not going to bring in a huge harvest of secular Hip Hop listeners any more than Stryper or Petra brought in a huge harvest of rockers.
The entire paradigm we are discussing (music as an evangelism tool) is faulty. I worked in the youth ministry for years………hundreds of kids came across my path……..yet I personally never met one who was drawn to the cross with music of any sort as the primary implement God used.
What WAS common was the adoption of a Christianized form of music that mirrored their pre-conversion musical tastes (whether rock, rap, or whatever floated their boat previously).
One thing that I always found interesting though……..those that grew and matured seemed to universally gravitate AWAY from the music they formerly preferred (even in its Christianized form).
I realize that my experiences are purely anectdotal……..but they were invariably true.I’ve never seen music (of any kind) used as an effective form of evangelism, only as an effective form of edification to those already in Christ.
The simple,spoken exposition of the Word remains unchallenged as an evangelistic tool.
by yall saying hip-hop is holy is no different from Paula White famous saying “what the devil meant for evil God will turn it around”
Would we all agree that Hip-hop is not music?
Would we all agree that HIp-hop is a culture?
Show scripture that God is more interested in saving cultures then man? Hip-hop is the golden calf that has been lifted up to false gods so we can’t take that gold melt it down and make a holy version of it! Now in Deut 7 God told his kids don’t imatate those cultures…why? they were godless!!!! so now y didn’t the children say lets convert them and turn there culture holy? or what if someone in one of those cultures decided to follow God can he then turn and say his culture is holy? Now if John the Bapitist said he must decrease so Christ can increase…..hip-hop doesnt allow that it’s all about look at me i’m this i’m that i’m the baddest mother_____ on this planet and this and that, this culture is so shallow that u r defined by what u wear! nobody is born into hiphop we choose it!
Nobody answered my question. If hiphop was not the dominating music genre of this world and jazz, country, or another genre was considered dominating, would it still considered to be worldly?
I want you all to check out this conference that is going down in Chicago.
also check out…
http://www.shelteruyc.com/heavyweights.htm
Look at what they are doing and contrast that with MegaMess and The Youth Explosion the Donnie McCLurkin sponsored.
The fees are not high. THey have no outside sponsors. and if you know like I know, all these solid christian mcs will be a blessing to the young people because they actually will teach them the Word of God. (read their bios)
I know we do not need hip hop to evangelize. But it is used to plant seeds in peoples lives. Most of these people commenting have no intention on listening. My prayer is that you have an open mind to at least listen to it without judging. If you don’t like it, then you don’t like it. Don’t say it’s wrong when God uses His people to lift up His name through this music.
It depend on the intent of the music,lyrics, and the artist. If there is an anti-christ message being promoted 1 Tim 4:1-2 focus on seducing spirits, what Spirit influenced the music. Music is not important to God, his word and the message of Christ is. We are to lift up his name by living right and proclaiming his name with our mouth.
Peace.
Thankful, I say the answer is yes. I had to think on this a bit, because the question you ask is a valid one. And the bible verse I will use, is one that was mentioned earlier in the blog (Rom 12: 2) Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is,his good, pleasing and perfect will. NIV), now, let’s break it down.
What you see today are “so called gospel (HHH) artists” who are conforming to the world. Let’s define “conform” and “transform”, and get the meaning from the dictionary and Thesaurus:
Dictionary: To correspond in form or character; be similar.
Thesaurus: accommodate, adjust, attune, comply, coordinate, fit, follow, harmonize, and integrate (there were more definitions but these few will do)
The key word to this verse is of course conform. Unless I am reading the verse wrong, it tells us to be different and not try to be like the world which is what I see (in style of dress and presentation).
And here is “transform”
Dictionary: To change markedly the appearance or form of; to change the nature, function, or condition of; convert
Thesaurus: about face, alter, commute, convert, cook, denature, do up, doctor, flip-flop, make over, and metamorphose
What I believe, is that we (as fallible humans) pick and choose what we want to do, and we deceive ourselves into thinking we are doing something good and in retrospect we are not. The point moreover, is more and more, the church is becoming like or integrating itself into the world system instead of being set apart, in order to be accepted. But Christ told us that when you follow him, persecution would happen because of who he is. Just try calling yourself a Christian in public these days will have scorn heaped upon you.
I do not see this happening with HHH (being different that is). It’s the same with different packaging.
Where we err Marlon when it comes to the different types of music is when we try and justify them as worship or evangelism, tools for reaching the lost sheep. Take what the world is doing and put a lord god or a halleluja or thank you jesus or go as far as to mention the cross of all things in there and claim we are doing Gods business. It’s sacrilegeous and God dishonoring. It’s no different than the world’s claim that marriage is not limited to man and woman. Is “holy” hip hop, jazz, rap God Glorifying?
NO, NO and NO.
Jeremiah said it best in 2:11, Hath a nation changed their gods, which are not gods? but my people have changed their glory for that which doth not profit.
13th verse goes on to say,”For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and have hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water”.
And I was born in the 70’s.
Secular hip hop culture is a mission field just like Africa, Asia, and South America. Generational issues keep the church and those over 40 from supporting it. God can/will/and has used “unconventional” means to draw people to Him. If you don’t like HHH, that’s fine. But please don’t call something “evil” that God is using to teach, reach and edify his children.
It also amazes me how hip hop clothing is seen as “worldly”, yet a 3 piece suit and tie isn’t seen as “worldly”….Those guys at Enron and Tyco looked so “holy” as they were robbing everybody…..perspective is everything.