Joanice Cole responded to an earlier comment on the law and tithing. I liked it so much I decided to give the comment its own posting. The neat thing is: I didn’t have to do much of any editing on it. Nice job, JLC.
So Arty P., circumcision, which was also a Law in the Old Testament, is this still a requirement for men today?
The scripture that you are referring to is Mathew 5:17, which talks about Mosaic Laws. The Mosaic Laws are actually divided into three categories: Civil Laws, Ceremonial Laws and Moral Laws.
The Civil Laws. Civil laws are laws that are socially and culturally acceptable guidelines. During the Old Testament time, the civil laws were written as guidelines and instructions for the Israelites’ daily living. Because society’s way of living changes over time, it would be impossible for each generation or culture to comply with old culturally acceptable civil laws. A good example of a civil law would be Deuteronomy 22:13 , 19: “If any man takes a wife, and goes in to her, and detests her, and charges her with shameful conduct, and brings a bad name on her, and says, ‘I took this woman, and when I came to her I found she was not a virgin,’ then the father and mother of the young woman shall take and bring out the evidence of the young woman’s virginity to the elders of the city at the gate. And the young woman’s father shall say to the elders, ‘I gave my daughter to this man as wife, and he detests her. Now he has charged her with shameful conduct, saying, “I found your daughter was not a virgin,” and yet these are the evidences of my daughter’s virginity.’ And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. Then the elders of that city shall take that man and punish him; and they shall fine him one hundred shekels of silver and give them to the father of the young woman, because he has brought a bad name on a virgin of Israel. And she shall be his wife; he cannot divorce her all his days.”
Thus, these civil laws that were acceptable for the Israelites would not be acceptable in our time, culture and/or society.
The Ceremonial Laws. In the Old Testament, the Ceremonial Laws not only pertained to how the Israelites should worship God, but they were also clear standards for living a Holy Life; these laws were mandated by God for the purpose of the Israelites. Included in these Ceremonial laws was tithing (10%) (Deuteronomy 14). Because of Christ’s death, we are no longer saved by keeping the laws but by Grace (Romans 6:14-15 & Galatians 3).
Moral Laws. The Moral Laws are the Ten Commandments. Because the moral laws reveal the true nature of God, they do apply to us (Christians) today. That is, we are to love and obey God with all of our heart and love our neighbors. Thus, we are obligated to keep the Moral Laws–these laws will never go away and they should be kept from generation to generation.
Jesus states that He did not come back to abolish the laws but to fulfill the laws. I take this to mean that the Laws God set forth were preparing the Israelites for the coming of Christ. Therefore, Christ fulfilled what the Laws could not do and that is, save us from sin. Unfortunately, because the Pharisees misquoted and misapplied these laws, in the end, they turned them into a huge heap of confusing rules.
In what I have been reading on tithing, we are no longer required to tithe 10 percent but instead give cheerfully and non-grudgingly.
:lol:...
This is goin to kindle alot of mixed emotions with in people. Be prepared for the backlash. But for the record, i agree 100%
And if under the old covenant Jews were required to give 10%, we under the new covenant should be giving (cheerfully and non grudgingly) at least 10% too, if not more, since we have seen the law fulfilled!
But the really important question is: Are you robbing from God if you don’t give ten percent?
The Israelites gave the 10% to pay for the temple system and to care for the foreigners and orphans. Why are we supposed to give the ten percent?
Does God promise us a blessing if we give a tithe and a cursing if we don’t?
For God so LOVED the world that he GAVE his only begotten son….
He loved, so he he gave - If we love him, we should give back.
“Where your treasure is, so also is your heart” - investing your “treasure” in Christ’s bride seems the appropriate christian response?
Not for a blessing though - Paul said give all your money ti the poor, but have not love, and it is for nought. Give because you love.
Paul also said he sought gifts, not for the gofts themselves but to increase the accounts of the givers (in heaven) - again, putting treasure where you heart should be
Train, try to address the issue. No one is saying we shouldn’t give. We all agree we should. Are we obligated to give 10% to the local church?
Focus Train, and see if you can answer the question.
Luke 11:42 But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass by justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.
The part about giving from the heart is biblical giving taught in both Testaments. So, I totally agree with that part. But the tithe was never the means by which God’s people gave to Him. Since Israel’s political system was a theocracy, the tithe was the means by which the government was supported. Therefore, it was a tax. In fact, everyone had to pay a tax to their king (See 1 Sam 8). Just like today, everyone has to pay taxes to support the government.
Not true…..
Numbers 18:19 (King James Version)
19 All the heave offerings of the holy things, which the children of Israel offer unto the LORD….
The Lord then gives it to the “government”…
Hey JLC, you did a good job explaining the laws. It’s funny when it comes to money pastors have no problem going to the Old Testament for scriptures. You don’t hear much about give what you have (2 Corinthians 8:12). A good model for giving can be found in 2 Corinthians 9:6-11, that’s the model I go by and not the 10% law. There have been some seasons that I’ve giving more than 10%. First thing God makes it very clear in verse 6 that if you’re cheap in your giving He’ll be cheap in His blessings and I believe that. Then verse 7 breaks it down on how we should give. Verse 7 , Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give (our giving should be thoughtful), not reluctantly (give enthusiastically) or under compulsion (meaning to give voluntarily and not allow someone to make you feel guilty about what you ought to give) because God loves a cheerful giver. I especially love verse 8 because it tells us how God’s blesses the cheerful giver. If you look at verse 8 you see how many times the word “All” is used. He’s able to make all grace so that all things at all times in having all that we “NEED” and not all that we want or desire.
So Arty p, do you follow all the old testament laws? Check out John 1:17. Would you rather follow Moses and all the rules and never eat pork bacon again
or would you rather follow Jesus Christ who fulfilled what the law couldn’t, through His grace and truth.
Now I’ve seen it all - hooping and self-baptism!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwtXNQWnkKM&search=preacher
NCW, it is ashamed that Pastors, especially the Baptist Pastors are always pulling out the OLD Testatment when it comes to money; even my beloved Pastor, John Jenkins, Sr. is famous for this.
Glad this topic came up. I come from a background where before money was given in church some1 would always pull out mal 3 and remind everyone that you were robbing God and the devourer would mess u up if you didnt tithe.
Even had prayers to rebuke the devourer. So when I came to know christ for myself it was a huge system shock to know that the yoke of tithing put around peoples necks did not need to be there.
I told my friends I was going to start giving the New Testament way and tried to educate them on it. Thier response was ‘ok well see what God does to you’
The case Paul makes towards the Galatians (chapter 5) about circumsion is also true of tithing why burden yourself again? if u insist on tithing then you might has well keep the whole law, and if your going to do that then Christ came died because???????
Giving is an act between you and God, I give now out of the knowlegde that God has blessed me. Not as some requirement to remain blessed.
1 Timothy 6:10 “For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.”
Tiannah, how true is this statement? We have become a society that is so hung up on money, fame and wealth that now our Churches have stepped away from the Bible “to keep up with the Jones.” They have people believing that God is and can be their personal Santa Claus if and when they “Tithe.”
I would say about 95% of the people that tithe do it out of church tradition. They really aren’t familiar with the actual law of tithing. From my memory i thing it is mostly covered in the book of Deuterotomy and Leviticus. These books gives the outline of 1. what is an exceptable tithe, 2. what time of year to do it, 3. what it was designated for, 4. And under certain circumstances, when to EAT it. My point is that todays form of the so-called “tithe” is not even remotely done in the same way as God designed it. Therefore everyone is doing it incorrect. If need be i will provide the scriptures that i’m referring to, it may shed some light on what i’m saying. Unfortunately, i believe through tradition, sincere Christians have been deceived into thinking that Malichi chapter 3 refers to the church of the supposed to be “New Covenant”. Also bare-in-mind that, these are the same people that claim that the law of moses was nailed to the cross, yet they conveniently, run to the same “law of moses” to authorize this tithing thing. Just think about that.
Below, gives you a clear reason for the “Tithes” in regards to its purpose and who it was reserved for. Under the NT check and see how many times the word “Tithes” is used (You will be surprised!). Even in the OT, if you do any research, you will find that GOD would instruct that if anybody who would be willing to give to any form of work, worship, or dedicated things…it was always from those who wanted to give “willingly”. With a free heart to give, NOT by force. As you study the NT you will see that ALL giving is done with purpose of heart. See, GOD does not want what you are not willing to give to Him, His work or His people freely!
Numbers 18:20-32
20 And the LORD spake unto Aaron, Thou shalt have no inheritance in their land, neither shalt thou have any part among them: I am thy part and thine inheritance among the children of Israel. 21 And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation. 22 Neither must the children of Israel henceforth come nigh the tabernacle of the congregation, lest they bear sin, and die. F42 23 But the Levites shall do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they shall bear their iniquity: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations, that among the children of Israel they have no inheritance. 24 But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance. 25 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 26 Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the LORD, even a tenth part of the tithe. 27 And this your heave offering shall be reckoned unto you, as though it were the corn of the threshingfloor, and as the fulness of the winepress. 28 Thus ye also shall offer an heave offering unto the LORD of all your tithes, which ye receive of the children of Israel; and ye shall give thereof the LORD’S heave offering to Aaron the priest. 29 Out of all your gifts ye shall offer every heave offering of the LORD, of all the best F43 thereof, even the hallowed part thereof out of it. 30 Therefore thou shalt say unto them, When ye have heaved the best F44 thereof from it, then it shall be counted unto the Levites as the increase of the threshingfloor, and as the increase of the winepress. 31 And ye shall eat it in every place, ye and your households: for it is your reward for your service in the tabernacle of the congregation. 32 And ye shall bear no sin by reason of it, when ye have heaved from it the best of it: neither shall ye pollute the holy things of the children of Israel, lest ye die.
Pastor “Z” everybody agrees we should tithe, however the question is are we required to give 10%. Yes or No.
First, let me ask you a simple question. Under the NT, please go and search for yourself, why do you, personally, tithe?
You can go back and read my earlier post in this thread on why I tithe. I do it as a form of worship to God. The money I have doesn’t belong to me, it’s His, and He owns everything. I do it for the support of His ministry, for the welfare of my pastor and his family and to show my love for God’s church. Church is an earthly institution, bills have to be paid so I give under grace. After I tithe in my local church, during seasons of abundance, I give offerings to ministries that I believe are sending forth the Word of God.
Now why do you tithe?
“I do it as a form of worship to GOD” is the TRUE meaning of NT giving. Whether its 10%, 30%, 50% or 100%. Its not the amount, but the intentions of the heart.
If you’re giving any of your tithe to any organized religion you’re not giving it to God. You’re giving it to false God’s. And I mean all religions. When God says, “Come out of her lest you be a partaker in her plagues (sp)” He is saying get your butt out of religion. They’re all bad. God seeks a personnal relationship with His children. Not a mob mentallity of religion. If you have excess above your needs, help His sheep. It’s that plain and simple
Pastor Z,
You are quite correct in your assesment of new covenant giving. We are no longer under any obligation to tithe, and besides tithes were never in the form of currency, but always in the form of livestock and agricultural products. That is what the pimps will never tell you.
Read
Deuteronomy 14:22-29
Tou-che!
yes, that is exactly what i wanted to get at in my last post, but i didn’t have my word handy. thanks for providing the necessary scriptures.
Hello Pastor Z:
I took your advice and researched the number of times the word “tithe” is used in the New Testament, using the King James Version (thank Goodness for Biblegateway.com). The word tithe is only mentioned 7 times in the New Testament and each time that it is mentioned, it is referring to the children of Israel. Just for fun, I searched “tithing” and this resulted to nothing.
Regarding Numbers 18:20-32, I maybe reading your posting wrong, but I do not read or see this as the Israelities giving willingly but instead tithing being a duty and a responsibility.
It was a duty. You are very correct. But why? The Levites were operating in a service GOD had set up for them to perform on behalf of the people. As well, this was done because the children of Isreal were told that basically, the Levites will minister or serve on your behalf. Today, though, we do not need for anybody to stand on behalf for us before GOD, Jesus made thee way for all to come before GOD for ourselves. We do not have to give anybody any money for their inheritance, because GOD has and is ALL of our inheritance. I am not againts giving to the church, Ministers or Pastors, but we have to give without feeling guilty or without being mis-informed.
By the way, take a look at the paper on tithing. You can get to it by clicking here or by clicking on the “Various Essays” link at the top right-hand part of the page and follow the links.
It’s kind of rough and I’d like to smooth it out and fill in some of the cracks and rough spots. Maybe now that I control my time a little more, I can get to it.
I actually had a chance to view it earlier today. Very well put together, I might add. I have always been puzzled at the concept of today’s tithing concepts. If you look at Jesus, the Apostles, Elders…you never see for example the Apostle Paul or Peter or John ever go to any of the temples and ask for the tithes. We consider these men often times as Pastors and Bishops, but Paul as well as Peter and Timothy as well as others talk about the hardships they experienced in their lives and you would think that if anybody could use or would be deserving of using the tithes, it would be these men. A subject such as this would be plainly evident throughout the NT for us to continue to practice. As I stated before, I support giving and I think allot of people tithe out of routine and not scriptural understanding.
I would like for someone to properly explain entire book of Malichi. I don’t have the time right now, but It has nothing to do with what many of these churches teach. They only show us Chapter 3, but if you read the entire book, you would see exactly who it was speaking to, this will change the whole out look and interpretation of what it says. But of course they don’t want you to know that.
you know what, my apologies Melvin. I’ve reviewed your essay, and i can see that you’ve covered that.
Thanks
JLC,
You might want to clean up this language, it’s kind of contradictory. I know, I know, I’m being picky, I can’t help it.
JLC first wrote:
Because of Christ’s death, we are no longer saved by keeping the laws but by Grace (Romans 6:14-15 & Galatians 3).
Then:
Therefore, Christ fulfilled what the Laws could not do and that is, save us from sin.
The last statement is true. The first one was half true, because you obviously know that no one has ever been saved by keeping the law. Sorry for being so picky.