Okay, Roscoe and Bubba, Part II.
Cozy up folks and let’s get to the second half of the tale. I asked the question: “Why did Roscoe accept Jesus Christ and Bubba reject Him?” Most of you got right up to the answer and then backed away. Over the last eight days and forty-odd answers, most of you attributed one’s salvation and the other’s damnation to something each of them did or didn’t do. When pressed, you began to drag God into it. When further pressed, you backed away. But that’s fine.
Let’s start with another question. Who, born of men, is in and of himself deserving of salvation? That is, is there anyone on earth who God looks at and says “I’m going to save that person because he/she has this quality, or did this thing that I like”? I suspect that all who have been engaged in this conversation will say “No. There is no one who deserves salvation based on some quality intrinsic to that person.”
In other words, all men start off as the children of wrath. All men, if they die before accepting Jesus Christ as their savior, will stand before that same Christ at the last, condemned to the lake of fire. There are no exceptions. All men are deserving only of hell. This sounds harsh, but I suspect if you think it through, you will agree.
All men are born enemies of God, unwilling and unable to obey God; unable and unwilling to please God by any act of their own (Romans 8:8, 9). If you look around you will see literally thousands of religions, all based on man’s attempts to earn God’s approval. All of them fail. All of the people trusting their works through these religions are children of wrath. All of those people who die as children of wrath are hell-bound. All men and women born of man are worthy only of God’s wrath; all of them.
Bubba may have become a Mason in order to earn God’s favor. But in his heart he knows he fails. Roscoe may have become a member of the Catholic Church, gone to confession and Mass every day. But in his heart of hearts, he knows he fails to come up to the standards God has set. But because both are dead in their sins, neither is willing or able to come to God in the truth of Grace. At least they are not able to do it on their own. Remember: they can’t and they don’t want to obey God. Therefore, neither of them, in there current state of condemnation can decide to trust God in faith for salvation.
Another question: What does God owe even the best of us; say Sister Theresa when she was alive? Did God owe her anything? Did he owe her salvation? Unless you are willing to ignore the touchstone of this posting, Titus 3:5, you must answer “no.” The fact that she did lots of really good things did not earn her anything from God. And of course, if He owed it to her, then it would be because she had earned it. And that is directly opposed to what the Bible says. Without Christ, her death, despite all the wonderful and compassionate things she did, merely signaled her approaching judgment and consignment to the lake of fire.
It may seem like something of a trivialization, but think about you and your kid making a trip to city pound to pick a new pet for the household. (Before you natter on too much, yes, I understand that humans are not dogs, that we are far more precious in the site of God than dogs, etc, etc, etc. This is an illustration, not a theological statement. That comes later. Now, back to the illustration.) You go into the pound and you tell the keeper that you would like to “adopt” a dog. Mr. Pound Attendant takes you back to the holding pens and shows you the dogs; eight cute little puppies. He tells you that the county only keeps dogs for three weeks and then, if they are not adopted, they are destroyed. Furthermore, he explains, all the puppies have been there for 21 days. Translation: Which ever dogs you leave behind will be destroyed, put down, put to sleep tomorrow.
Do any of the dogs deserve to be adopted? No.
Are you obligated to adopt any one dog over another? No.
Are you obligated to adopt any of the dogs at all? No.
Does anything prevent you from adopting all of the cute little puppies if you wish to? No.
And the fact is, unless you take them all home, you leave some to be destroyed. This may seem cruel. It may seem unfair to the dogs. But the fact is unless someone takes them out of the facility, they will be destroyed. And, by choosing one puppy, you are rejecting all of the others.
Again, did you have an obligation to pick all of the puppies? Nope. But because you did not choose the puppies, they were left to the destruction they were scheduled for.
Were you unjust not to choose the rest of the puppies? No.
Do you owe the puppies you left behind an explanation of why you left them behind? No.
Do you owe the puppy you adopted an explanation for why you adopted her? No.
Did the puppy you chose do anything (aside from the same cute puppy stuff all the other puppies were doing) to cause you to choose him? No.
So you pick the puppy, pay the $10 and you and your now deliriously happy son go home and begin to make the puppy a part of your household.
Remembering that the analogy is not perfect, let’s look at us and God.
Again, do any of us deserve salvation? No.
Is God obligated to save any of us? No.
Is there anything we can do (aside from the cute puppy stuff the rest of the humans do) to cause God to choose one of us over the other? No. If there were, then there would be some intrinsic value in the selectee that caused the Selector to choose him. But we know that that cannot be (Romans 4:4 and others). We know that from God’s perspective, no human has any intrinsic value making them worthy of salvation.
I can already hear you howling an objection. But before you turn purple, understand that this doesn’t mean that people don’t do good things. They certainly do. Look at the love of a mother for her child. Witness the heroics of men and women during a disaster. United Flight 93 is an example of men and women being willing to sacrifice their lives to save the lives of others. Even Jesus recognized that it’s a great love to give your life for another. Unfortunately, none of what they do will ever earn them salvation.
Again, no one can do anything that can earn salvation. No one has any quality that rises to the level of deserving salvation. I, for instance, have the patience of a saint, the kindness of Mother Theresa, and the wisdom of Rodney. But without God renewing my heart through Jesus Christ, I am no more deserving of salvation than the worst child molester or the most crooked politician.
Let’s take a break here and look at that stubborn verse we mentioned earlier.
I know that I have a set view on what this verse or that verse is talking about and I suspect some of you have done that with the verses in 2 Peter. Let’s take a look at it.
7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. 8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Peter assures the readers that God is in control, even in the face of ungodly men. He then says that God is patient toward us. Immediately after that he makes that onery statement.
So who is he talking to and about when he makes that statement? In the sentence before (9a) he is speaking directly to us (…toward you). I suggest, given the lack of any other indicator, He is still speaking to us and about us when he makes that next statement. In other words, He is not willing that any of us (the saved) should perish.
The verse also says the Lord wishes for all to come to repentance. What are they to repent of (change their minds about)? In the previous chapter (remembering that the letters weren’t really written in chapters), Peter spends time warning the believers about false teachers and the effect they can have on them. Move down to verse 14, the one that starts with “therefore” or “wherefore” in the King James Version.
Apparently, Peter wants the readers of his epistle to repent of the things he mentions in verses 17 and 18 of the previous chapter , being enticed by sensuality and indulging the flesh. But notice, he is talking to the saved to do something only the saved can do - repent. Remember, the saved are no longer slaves of sin and can choose (Romans 6:17, 18). The unsaved are still slaves of sin and can only obey sin, not God.
Take a look at Ezra 1:5 -
Then the heads of fathers’ households of Judah and Benjamin and the priests and the Levites arose, even everyone whose spirit God had stirred to go up and rebuild the house of the Lord which is in Jerusalem.
Notice what happened. The heads of household, the priests, and the Levites whose hearts had been stirred arose. If God stirred their hearts they arose, but only because God stirred their hearts. Notice it doesn’t say “whose hearts God stirred and who responded to the stirring.” Everyone of those whose hearts God stirred responded.
And consider Lydia, the maker of purple cloth in Acts 16:14. It says she was a worshiper of God. But it goes on to say that “…God opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.” Now, we can’t say God opened her heart because she was a worshipper of God. Paul was a worshiper of God while he ran around killing and imprisoning Christians.
God opened her heart to believe. Was God unjust not to open the hearts of the other people there? No.
Also consider the listeners in Perga in Pamphylia (Acts 13:48). Paul and Barnabas preached the word. As a result all of those appointed to eternal live believed. Why did they believe? Because they were appointed to eternal life. Notice, they weren’t appointed to eternal life because they believed. The reason they believed is because they were appointed to eternal life. Had God not appointed them, they would not have believed. They would have been like the people around them who did not believe.
Was God unjust not to appoint the others hearing the word? No.
The only way a sinner can respond to the grace of God is if God puts the desire to respond in his heart. If He puts the desire in her heart (like the heads of household in Ezra) they will respond. If He does not put the desire to respond in their hearts, they will not respond.
There is nothing intrinsically good about the person in whom God places that desire. But once the desire is there, the person will respond and accept Jesus Christ.
This is what is meant when a Reformed person states that God chooses, that the choosing is a display of God’s endless grace and love, and that that grace cannot be resisted. It doesn’t mean that the person is dragged, like a caveman into the kingdom. Rather, it means that God has exercised His omnipotent grace in a creature blinded by sin and doomed to hell and has graciously pulled him from the very flames of hell.
When I realize this, the effect of God’s totally unmerited love in choosing me, I am humbled beyond words and can see that I am in no way superior to anyone in any sense when it comes to meriting God’s favor. I wasn’t a little more perceptive, I wasn’t a little more tenderhearted, I wasn’t hanging with the right people. I may have been marginally cuter, but I doubt it.
Like the puppy adopted by the family, I had nothing to do with my salvation. I accepted only because God enabled me to. I was changed from a child of wrath to a child of God only by God’s grace.
Any questions?
In all honesty, I thought my answer was Biblical…it just was not a dissertation length presentation on the topic. I said that Roscoe loved God while the other did not. Then I said that Roscoe’s loving God was built upon the fact that God loved Roscoe first.
I think that does answer the question because God does not love all…at least not in the same way. A man will not love other women the way he loves his bride. Romans 8:28 talks about how we were foreknown by God and predestined to be made into the image of His Son. If indeed foreknowledge here is more than, “Hey, I know you” and is truly an intimate knowledge, then it was from eternal intimacy that God chose Roscoe and not the other guy, whose name I cannot remember.
Was there some wording you were looking for in particular?
Bubba.
True enough Christopher. Remember, I didn’t say no one ever answered it correctly, just that MOST got right up to the answer.
The apsect I think most people kept away from is the idea that there was nothing that Roscoe did to cause God to save him. Instead, it was all in what God did to stir Roscoe’s heart to want Him. The reason Bubba dies in his sins is because God never did anything to cause Bubba to want Him.
Thus salvation is an act of God working in my heart, not me choosing to respond to what He has done. Once He has placed the desire for Him in my heart, I had no “choice” but to respond. Once He places the desire in my heart, it IS the response I want to make.
mj - if the individual purchasing the puppies is an example of what God did toward us then what other way could we veiw this analogy than in this way. The buyer is not your common buyer. He paid for all the puppies and said based on this conditions i need you to clean them up for me, he wants take a sin sick pup unless he’s been treated for his illnesss. All of the pups are exposed to the illness and have to be vaccinated before leaving. For some the illness is too far gone and there is no hope in saving. The condition is all the pups that have the strength to come to the opening clean them up.
Many times when you watch pups play they follow each other around and let’s say one is removed from the cage, in most cases you will have another that will watch and go to the opening of that cage and attempt to get out also, which is the condition i stated earlier.
Salvation is the condition for all mankind, God offers it to all, but you must understand the stakes, consider the pup before you, who moved pass the open point and into the freedom of love and a different way of living. As a person who exept salvation i must now take steps toward the opening, to move pass the opening point, in other words “work out my sole salvation with fear and trembling” because the buyer is comming back for his merchandise. He’s not concern with how many he’s going to pick up, he just know there will be a pick up and those he take use the strength his provided them to get to the opening.
Many people except salvation but do not use their strength to positon themselve for the buyer they use their time and energy for their convenience and to project themselves as an icon of righteousness and guess what people are buying it and following suit.
I leave you with this: Why did pup- peter want to get out of the cage-boat and walk on freedom- water answer because he watched what he thought was a pup- jesus do it and figured that was another part of life pups were suppose to do, so he moved towards the open point and the buyer held him in his hands for a brief moment but because he trembled beyound the point of the opening-started to sink the buyer knew he was not ready yet.
Steven,
You just did what people often do with the Bible. I never said any of the putppies were sick, or that any of the them were too far gone. In fact, I specifically said they were all very much the same, no significant differences.
Do you understand that you just said that God picks people based on a good quality or qualities in that person? IF that is true, then that means these people earned their salvation, or did something to cause God to pick them. Is that consistent with Scripture> Do we move God or does God move us?
Steve wrote:
“He’s not concern with how many he’s going to pick up, he just know there will be a pick up and those he take use the strength his provided them to get to the opening.”
You might want to be careful saying things like that. That statement tells me that you believe God doesn’t know all things. You might not believe that, but that’s what you’re sounding like, open theistic.
Quite the contrary. I say he has established who He will give the “strength” to and having given them the strength, He has established that they will seek Him. Anything but inclusionism or open theism.
If all God can do is provide the information and “hope” some responds, then he is not in control. He is as much along for the ride as we are. And that isn’t consistent with who we, in every other circumstance, say God is.
I think you read too far into what I was saying my focus was the the pups actions. I do believe all of the word.Take for example 10 virgins 5 will go 5 will stay 5 did what was necessary 5 went back to do what was necessary but it was too late.
Thats one of the main issues of today everyone wants God to do and he has already made provisions the word says seek him while he may be found, call upon him while he is near’ not that old “He’ll make a way some how” stuff. The church is in trouble today for that same thought “if u take one step he’ll make two”, that is rubbish. Why are you here?
Minister Steven F,
As I read your comments, I’m trying to discern your salvation doctrine beliefs. Why? That influences the comments on this site and how people interpret other people’s comments.
If you’re NOT an eternal security teacher, you are on the right page!
Melvin,
What happened to Minister Steven F? Did you scare him away?
I miss his commentaries. Why? He doesn’t talk like a Calvinist or Eternal Securist.
aw I’m deeply touched. I’ve been watching all the arguments and defense, byt I’m still with ya.
If you’re not an eternal securist, can I come hear you preach?
The Eternal Securist don’t know as much as they think they know. They ignore and can’t comprehend “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” Philippians 2:12 They overlook the parable of the 10 virgins and other teachings of Christ.
With Paul’s teachings, they only choose the scriptures they can misread to promote their beliefs.
Because of their belief in “unconditional election”, they’re going to end up like the 5 “foolish virgins”. They’ll be caught unprepared and left behind UNLESS they make a major change….
John 3:17 tells us that God sent not his son into the world to condemn the world but through him they might be saved. okay all very much the same, yes obedience is what God require from man, God established the end from the beginning so there’s nothing he needs to do at all because it done according to your life choice. The bible also state that we were chosen by God but many will not choose him.
And why do those who do choose Him, choose him? Because He places the desire to choose Him in their hearts. From our perspective there is nothing within that person to cause God to place that desire there. But having placed it, the person will act on it. They obey because He put the desire to obey in their hearts. And there is nothing in the person (from our persective) that caused God to place that desire in their heart.
Right now you appear to be simply quoting scripture and then saying that God saves men based on something those men have done/thought/said/decided. Every time you do that, you imply that there is something in this man that God found acceptable and nothing in that man that God found acceptable.
Rather than quoting scripture, address such things as Mother Theresa. Did her works save her? If not, why in the world did she fail to accept God’s gift. She was making all the right live choices, wasn’t she?
Oh no!
You said, “Because He places the desire to choose Him in their hearts…..They obey because He put the desire to obey in their hearts.” This statement and your other Calvinism-type statements are not scriptural.
Christ died for ALL men not just certain people. (2 Corinthians 5:15) He died for the whole world. (John 3:16) If we receive or reject His salvation, that’s OUR decision as individuals. (John 1:11-12) The choice is ours not God’s.
Why did Joshua tell the Israelites, “choose you this day whom ye will serve”? They had the ability and free will to make their own decisions.
http://www.biblestudylessons.com/cgi-bin/gospel_way/predestination.php
http://www.gospelway.com/salvation/original_sin.htm
http://www.gospelway.com/salvation/calvinism.htm
Why didn’t God put “the desire to obey” in the hearts of Ananias and Sapphira? (Acts 5) Based upon Peter’s reaction, they must have been Christians. (verse 3-4)
Why didn’t God put “the desire to obey” in the heart of Simon? (Acts 8:13-24) Why didn’t God stop Simon, a new convert, from desiring to purchase the Holy Ghost? Surely God knew that was a “sin”.
God not only SAW Simon’s sin. He used Peter to warn him that he was going to “perish”. (Acts 8:20-22) Repentance was Simon’s only option.
Simon’s sin was NOT automatically forgiven. He had to “repent” and “pray” for God to forgive him. (Acts 8:22-24) He was on the verge of losing his soul because of his own actions caused by his own decisions.
And now all you have to do is explain why one person accepts the offer and all the rest reject it, biblically. Because remember, it’s nothing good in me that causes God to save me. Why did I choose God when billions and billions others reject Him?
If the God didn’t open Lydia’s heart then what did He do. If the verse I pointed out doesn’t mean what I said, what would it have to “look like” to mean what I said?
If the men in acts weren’t appointed to eternal life, how would the verse I quoted have to be written to indicate that they were appointed to eternal life?
Rev_AK, do you believe in miracles?
At any rate, can you help out your friend Melvin. I’m sleepy.
Which part of “He opened her heart to believe…” or “all those appointed to eternal life rejoiced…” is unscriptural?
Well i believe that we aren’t saved by our works but we still have been commanded to be a doer of the word and not just a hearer only. Jesus is not alive in us unless his word is alive in us, if we can’t make that connection then there is none. The word is the foundation in the believer, because everlasting life come through it.
God’s word speaks for itself:
“Blessed are they that DO his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.” Revelations 22:14
Obedience is not an option. Only those who obey God will reap “eternal salvation”. (Hebrews 5:9)
http://www.biblestudylessons.com/cgi-bin/gospel_way/obedience.php
If you don’t obey God, you will face “indignation and wrath,”. (Romans 2:8-9)
We have an option to sin, but we’re not supposed to “yield” to it. (Romans 6:16) If we yield to sin, we have exercised our “free will”. If you say you don’t sin, you make God a liar. (1 John 1:10)
Our “souls” are “purified” when we “obey the truth”. (1 Peter 1:22) We’re supposed to purify ourselves. (1 John 3:3)
Those who don’t “obey” the gospel will be judged. (1 Peter 4:17)
At least you are being consistent. Not only do I have some quality that differentiates me from the rest of the swine and caused God to save me and not them, but I now realize that I have to keep myself saved for the rest of my life. Hmmm. No wonder I had to struggle so hard with arrogance. I was really a whole lot better than I thought.
Although I have to admit I am a little disappointed. All this time I thought I could depend on God’s faithfulness and power to keep me ’til the day of redemption (Eph 4:30). I thought He would be faithful even when I am faithless (2 Tim 2:13). And I really missed it when I thought I was safely ensconced in His hand (John 10:28, 29) safe from being removed by anybody, even me.
I guess I will just have to recognize that I am more powerful than the Father and the Son combined since I can take me out of their hands. And more than that, I have to admit that my sin, any of my sin is more powerful than the blood of Jesus Christ. Because not only can I take myself out of God’s hand (speaking anthropomorphically or course) but once I take myself out, there is no longer any way for me to come back since once I fall away (look at that cute honey in the Victoria’s Secret commercial) it is impossible to renew me to repentance (Heb 6:6).
Thank you Saint. I realize now that God chose me because I was somehow better than the rest of the men and women around me. I always thought we were all equally unrighteous (Romans 3:10) but I see now that some of us are a little less unrighteous than others. And it’s those whom God selects for salvation. But I have also come to realize it’s a complete gamble as to whether or not I’ll actually make it to be with the Lord since at any moment, I can pull myself out of the race.
I guess you should really feel good about yourself. After all, you were smart enough to seek God (despite the fact that Romans 3:11 says no one seeks Him) and you are righteous enough (despite the statement in Romans 3:10) to not sin and irretrievably lose your salvation as I did (Hebrews 6:6).
Keep up the good work Saint. If I can’t make it, I sure hope you can hold on ’til the end. After all, if you can’t hold on no one can. And I would hate to see God go through the rest of eternity with just the other two persons of the Trinity around.
Minister Steven F,
You’re correct IF you understand that initial justification is by FAITH, but continual justification requires “works”. (James 2:14-26) Three times not once GOD used James to say: “faith without works is dead”. (verses 17, 20, 26) God not only meant what He said; He reinforced it multiple times.
The Eternal Securists and other “blind guides” who misunderstood justification either ignore, denounce these passages, or falsely proclaim the person “was never really saved”.
God made it very clear that this was a “salvation” issue when James starting the discourse by saying, “What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not WORKS? can faith SAVE him?” (verse 14)
My mentor Apostle Paul and Jesus was aligned with James when they said:
“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself WRATH against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous JUDGMENT of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his DEEDS:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and WRATH,” (Romans 2:5-9)
“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that DOETH the will of my Father which is in heaven.” Matthew 7:21
Can you relate to what I’m saying?
Yes I can. That why he said few will find the strait and narrow. Everybody is not willing to stand alone in their own faith in God. My phrase is” If I go to hell i will not be going be cause i folowed some one there, If I’m there it’s becauae i lead myself there. So many so called believers have faith in their church and Pastor, but what if the world take the privilege away from you and do away with a building or lock the church doors then what will you have ? CAN YOU STAND THE RAIN ?
Probably not, because what you see is not eturnal but temporary, or if your pastor died in the next hour can your social group stand and how long will it take for people to do as God told joshua , moses my servant is dead. Peoplelet tackle this one here. I believe the first house of God is yo body, then yo home, the first minister yo child see is you, then others and abroad, what do you think?
Minister Steven F,
Interesting but different approach…….
I believe the reason church folk aren’t appropriately walking in the faith is caused by false teaching.
How? What you believe impacts how you will act. If you’ve been sitting under an Eternal Securist, you’re just like the people in Hosea 4:6a. “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge:” Not knowing the TRUTH of God’s word can lead you to hell.
On Judgment Day when they’re left outside the gate, they can’t say “Ah. Well my pastor taught me that I was eternally saved. So I didn’t have to do nothing. I didn’t know repentance was mandatory.” Then God’s gonna close the gate and say, “Next in line please!”
“Blessed are they that DO his commandments, that they may have RIGHT to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.” (Revelations 22:14)
What do you think?
(MN: Just curious - same for you. Put some thought into the verses you blindly post or you will be banned from Puppies Are So Cute.” I know what you believe, now tell me why. Read the essay I wrote on eternal security and address the argument. Don’t simply throw out verses. )
One question MJ,
But first I will preface this by saying you gave a good presentation of material that I have heared over and over again for many years. I whole-heartedly agree that man is in a completely fallen state. (rom. 5:12)
In your opinion, did Jesus die for ALL mankind, or just for the chosen?? If only for the chosen, then why did He have to atone in the first place?? (I KNOW why He went to the cross, but why didn’t God just make an easier way for the “puppies” he thought were cute?)
Rev, let me chime in here and ask you to consider the doctrine of substitionary atonement beginning in OT. To whom was the atonment applied? For whom did the High Priest intercede?
Before I answer any more questions on this topic, I’d like some of mine answered. Eric, I like your question: I am going to say the Priest interceded for the sin’s of the people. You are then going to say “what people?, could it be …God’s CHOSEN people??” Like i have said many times, (even though it is really fun) I have had these arguments many times! I haven;t even brought out the fact that MJ quoted 2 Peter, that it is “God’s will that none PERISH, but all to come to repentence.”If the saved are the only ones that can repent, can they then PERISH (die) ??? If this scripture applies to the already saved, (”chosen”) then does it appear to mean they can (UH OH!!) “backslide????” So anyway, I am “going dark” on this thread until some of my questions are answered. I am NOT being arrogant, I would really like to join forces with folks like Melvin, Norman Geisler and others out there, but those darned questions keep coming up!!
Rev!! Rev!! Come out of the dark side!
About the 2 Peter reference. I am speaking as one who does not promote the idea of God perfect will versus His permissive will. There is simply God’s will. And what God wills IS what happens. It is not His will that any of the saved shall perish therefore none of the saved will perish. This is similar to the statement in Romans 12:1,2 where we are to demonstrate God will, which is good, acceptable, and perfect.
Sorry. Didn’t realize you were waiting for an answer.
ARROGANT!?!? Who in their right mind would confuse arrogance with honest questioning and disagreement. I mean besides the morons who defend Bynum, Fast Eddie, and those of their ilk.
Other questions?
Melvin
The other question about did Jesus die for all, or just the elect?? I believe He died for all, and you will say only for the elect. That is why could go on forever. You guys, (Calvinists) will always use logic that looks at the end result of things. For instance: Jesus died for all that would believe in Him, thefore He died only for the elect. We (Arminians) beleive that He died for ALL , (Whosoever jN 3:16) that would believe in him. The end result is the same, that whether “chosen” or not, believers go to heaven, and non-believers don’t. It is in some ways, an argument over semantics. In retrospect, everyone who ends up being saved IS chosen, elect, and so forth. Was it all predestined?, is there any real need to preach the Gospel? Is the plan of Salvation much more complicated than it needs to be? (is it a “rube-golberg” device?) These are my lingering questions, not necessarily to you, but rhetorical, in a sense.
P.S. Did you get my email??
While I’m not too fond of “what if’s”, they do sometimes help to illustrate a point.
If Jesus had not died for our sins, how many of us would have been condemned? All of us. A reader pointed us to John 3:18 which says that all who do not believe on the Son are already condemned. Notice it doesn’t say they became condemned once they didn’t believe. They were already condemned.
Would God have been unjust to allow all humans to remain condemned and to die in their sins? Not at all. Afterall, he doesn’t owe us anything. If he did, then salvation would in some way have been earned.
Can God ignore sin? No. According to God, He cannot ignore sin because He is holy. How then, can God choose those He wishes to choose and yet not ignore sin? By paying the price of the sins of those He has chosen.
The result? God can choose who He will, because their selection depends only on the work that His Son did on the cross. And we see in Ephesians:
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.
Notice that I am not saying He died for those He knew would accept the salvation offered. No. I am saying He died for those He chose before the foundation of the world. He did not die for those He has not chosen before the foundation of the world.
My salvation is based only on the will of the Father and the sacrifice of the Son. When God moved my heart, I responded. It was not because of anything I did. It was only because of God’s opening of my heart, which I could not have opened on my own. But once opened, my heart could not help but respond.
Why witness? The simplest answer: Because God told us to. Why pray? So God can conform us to His will. Why study? So we can begin to understand the mind of God. And because he told us to.
I hope I didn’t just wander around in a bigger circle. Comments? Questions?
Last thoughts-promise!!
This is why I can not be “persuaded.”
If we were chosen before the foundation of the world to be saved, why were we still born into sin? Yes, I know were were condemned already,(Jn 3:18) and death entered the world through sin(Rom. 5:12), but if we were chosen, how could we ever have possibly been on the brink of hell? Why did God tell us to witness?
If he already has picked out who will recieve Him, why does the bible say to “compel” them to come?? If grace is so irresistible, why do they need to be compelled? In my opinion, our salvation is based not on a single act that we possibly could have done, but rather accepting the Grace offered freely to us by the Lord Jesus.
God moves everyone’s heart, but some resist..that is the unpardonable sin, rejecting the call of the Holy spirit. I guess the readers can decide if I am “nattering”, but I refuse to believe that there are people that are simply damned, and even if I intercede for them, and witness to them, nothing about that will change.
No Calvinist has ever explained to me why we need to bother preaching salvation, they just say “because God commanded it.” All I am asking the readers to do is think about it. I still think there is a middle ground out there…
Rev,
You’re still my friend. Unlike Calvin, I feel no great compulsion to burn you at the stake or anything like that.
Please continue to contribute to the blog. I really value your inputs.
Besides, you’re probably predestined to become a five pointer anyway.
Why do Arminians witness? Your problem, rev, is that you can’t figure out how God’s sovereignty correlate with man’s responsibility. None of us know how the two tie together, but scripture doesn’t have to defend itself. It just says this is how it’s done. Scripture teaches predestination of the elect, you cannot say it doesn’t, but scripture also teaches man’s responsibilty.
Melvin presented two characters. One was chosen by God, the other was left in his sins. The one left in his sins will spend an eternity in hell because he didn’t choose God. This seem contradictory, but they are not. Scripture teaches them both to be true, so I will believe.
SOLI DEO GLORIA
Rev_AK
You shouldn’t desire to join forces with anyone not teaching the truth based upon a correctly interpretated and rightly divided word of God.
So if someone errs on the slightest point, you would “come out, and be ye separate?”
For the record, reading John 3:18 will help clear up the problems of 3:17.
‘Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only son of God.’
Why did Jesus not come to condemn the world? Because the condemned ones were condemned before Jesus ever even got there.
yes we were born into a condemn state and when you receive Christ your state change. thats why I mentioned in my earlier comment about being sin sick.
MJ:
So based upon all that I’ve read from you (being Calvinistic in your beliefs)… What makes you (Melvin Jones) know that you’ve been picked??? How do you know that you’ve been chosen??? How do you know that you’ve been saved??? How do you know that you’re the right puppy to be brought by His blood???
Just some questions? Forget Bubba, Roscoe and a puppy analogy??? How does Melvin know that Melvin is saved???
An interesting question.
I know that I have been chosen because I accepted Jesus Christ as my savior, even as Lydia did. She accepted because God opened her heart. Had He not opened her heart, she would not, in fact could not have accepted.
The listeners in Acts (13:48) who were “appointed to eternal life” believed because they were appointed. They can know they are appointed because they believe. Likewise, according to 1 John 5:12, 13 I can KNOW that I have eternal life if I have accepted Jesus Christ.
The main thing here is that it was not any quality of mine that got me saved. It was God irresistibly working in my heart to bring me in. My response is proof that He worked in my heart and that I am saved. My willingness and eagerness to obey God is further evidence.
I don’t have to worry if I am the right puppy. The fact that I accepted Christ, by faith, is evidence enough that I am the right puppy. He will only open the hearts of those He has chosen.
Bottom line: If I was bought with His blood, I’m the right puppy. If you were bought with His blood, you are the right puppy. He will only buy the puppies He has chosen. They don’t have to worry about being the right one. They only have to worry that the bright-eyed child taking him doesn’t squeeze too much.
One of the extensions of a “Calvinist” view is the fact that I can rest in the power of God to save me and keep me. I can focus all of my attention not on staying saved or somehow earning God’s love, but working and living in His boundless love.
I’m not much of one to shout, but I have to say I get a tingle every time I go over that in my mind. That’s probably why reformed folks are so quiet. Because if they gave in to the magnitude of what God did, they’d be jumping and shouting all the time.
So if you were as dead as Roscoe & Bubba, how could you accept Christ? What makes your heart any better than Roscoe’s or Bubba’s to open up and as a matter of fact, what makes Lydia acceptable???
Just questions???
That’s the whole point - nothing made my heart any better than Bubba’s. There was nothing in me that caused God to choose me. I had nothing to do with it. God opened my heart because He, in His sovereign will, decided to do so. According to scripture, there was nothing in me that was better, more thoughtful, more sensitive than Bubba. Just as there was nothing that made Lydia more acceptable or the listeners who were appointed to eternal life. more acceptable.
That is the whole point - God’s choice has nothing to do with my heart. It had to do only with His grace and sovereignty. My heart opened because He opened it. And because He opened it, I accepted. I accepted because He acted on me. He acted on me for His own sovereign reasons.
Understandably, you keep couching this in terms of me choosing God on my own. But the whole discussion has been about the fact that on my own I can only choose disobedience. Only when God sovereignly acts on my heart (Lydia, those appointed to eternal life, etc.) can I exercise saving faith. But again, He acts for His own reasons, not because of something good in my heart.
So how did you know that your heart was opened by God??? Since you were dead and the dead knows nothing and all that you could choose was disobedience… How did you know that now your heart was opened by God and now you need to accept Him???
concerned christian,
No one comes to the faith saying “What…what was that…Lord, was that you opening my heart?”. Naw, nobody does that.
You are asking the wrong questions. The question ought to be, what does scripture say about God’s regenerating our hearts.
Sincere you sound like a Calvinist!
Does that offend you?
Hi Concerned Christian!
I like your questions. May I ask you: Are you an Armenian? Are you Baptist?
I’m a Christian… What a concept… Let see… Was Christ a Calvinist, an Armenian or oh my God… A Baptist??? Just some religious humor. Please don’t be offended. I believe that we who claim Christ as our personal Lord & Savior, just aught to do it His way, and not by the precepts established by men.
Just some thoughts…
The question is somewhat irrelavent. Jesus is the creator of the universe, the one we worship as God.
But the instant you talk about “His way” you move into precepts. The question is” Are those precepts consistent with what God has said in His word? That gets back to doctrine and those pesky precepts.
Actually, I don’t much like calling myself a Calvinist any more than I like calling those who wold deny the absolute sovereignty of God (how’s that for a subtle set up?) Arminians.
Generally, once you get a name-lable, meaningful discussion has been somewhat stunted. I guess I tend to consider myself a Reformed Christian. After all, if you read the Institutes of Religion, you’ll see an awful lot of Baptist doctrine in there. Does that mean Baptists are “Calvinists”? Does that mean Reformed Baptists (who aren’t interested in baptizing babies) are Calvinists? Hardly.
Don’t lightly dismiss the need for the “precepts of men.” Or at least be careful of how you define it. Is the Westminister Confession simply a book of precepts of men? While I don’t agree with everything in it, I would be hesitant to dismiss everything in it.
MJ:
I’m not totally dismissing everything by the “precepts of men”, just not willing to put all of my eggs into one basket (e.g. Calvinist only, Armenian only, Baptist only, etc.) Each one on it’s own has it’s own set of issues (both good and bad).
But would you agree or disagree that when you call yourself either one of these doctrinal followers (Calvinist, Armenian, etc.) and you start mixing with the opposite doctrinal position, would you still consider yourself as what you claim to be (a Calvinist or an Armenian)? Doctinally speaking of course.
Just some thoughts…
I understand. That is why I prefer not to sign as a “Calvinist.”
Calvin was a Sabbatarian. I reject the idea. Calvin baptized children (recognizing that the baptism in no way saves the child. I tend to reject that. But Calvin also codified the concept of God’s absolute sovereignty.
Was Calvin - or Luther, for that matter - perfect? Hardly. Did they shed light on some essential teachings? Definitely.
You sound like a reasonable person. I like your comments. Keep up the good work.
Since we’re talking about Calvin, I’d like to interject if I may.
Luther wrote way more than Calvin on the subject of “the doctrines of Grace”. Luther got it from Augustine, Augustine, got it from Paul, Paul got it from Christ, and Christ, as we all know is God. Let’s not forget that the O.T. speaks of it as well.
If were to sit down and all look at scripture together, and not use name like Calvin, Luther, or Sproul, or anyone, but we focused on Scriptures, what would we have. Truth!
Melvin, I see you are reformed in your soteriology, now if we can just get you to see the truths of covenant theology. HAHA!
We could discuss infant baptism as well.
Are you a Calvinist or Eternal Securist?
Actually, they’re pretty much the same. God called me, God regenerated me, God keeps me.
I assume you were asking the question of Melvin. If not, my apologies.
Your belief is on point and aligned with God’s word. Problem: Today’s teachers and preachers don’t live by. Their doctrines stem from man-made theology and misinterpretated scriptures.
That’s why there’s so much false teaching in today’s churches.
I’m not sure I understand your question. Are you asking how I know it was God who opened my heart or how do I know my heart was opened?
Strictly speaking, when God opened my heart I surely didn’t know, at the time, that it was Him doing it. I simply responded to the call. Afterall, when you are witnessing to a person, you don’t go into any explanation of God’s sovereignty or the rest of the stuff we have been discussing. You simply explain the Gospel and allow God to work. On this end I can, from what Scripture says, see that I had no ability on my own to seek him until He opened my heart.
How do I know God opens hearts? the Bible says so in such places as the reference to Lydia (her heart was opened - by God - to believe). I could be misreading that verse and those surrounding it, but you will have to help me see where.
ps…Bro. Melvin, this has nothing to do with the above message, but I read you thoughts on women pastors. Well if you read 2nd John you will read of a woman pastor, whom John recognized as having authority over her children/flock who met in her home/church and told her to take authority over anyone/man or other wise, that would come into her home/church preaching or teaching any other doctrine. You will recall that the early church was meeting in homes and John acknowledged this woman as one having authourity over any male preacher/ teacher preaching a different doctrine. True, it does not refer to her as a pastor in the chapter, but you can certainly infer that she was a shepherd of souls and an overseer of her children/flock, given the responsibility/authority of protecting her flock/children. Be Blessed, Go
To rev_ak, Bro Melvin Jones, and Sis Kimbly (and ps. that was a good word you left in your comments)
Our heavenly Father knows the past, the present, and the future. Therefore, those who have been predestined before the foundations of the world have already been given the chance to accept Christ as their Lord and Savior and have already either rejected Him or received Him. Therefore the Heavenly Father already knows those who have made that choice.
We don’t live in a history going forward, we actually live in a history that is being played back. Now, Jesus did not die for the elect, He died for all men, John 3:16, but He is aware of those who will receive Him as Lord and those who will not because it’s already been done and we are already sitting in heavenly places with Him. Therefore, as ministers of the gospel, without that revelation knowledge, we must preach and be instant in season and out of season because we play a role in the salvation of the lost.
Bro. Melvin, the letter from Peter is not for the saved to repent, that’s almost a contradiction in terms, kind of like, “I’m a sinner, saved by grace”. If you’re saved, then you’re not a sinner, and if you are saved, then you have nothing to repent from. Too often we try to equate our Christian life by evaluating the deeds of the flesh to determine our eternal outcome, my friends, when I accepted Christ, I was born again, I became a new creature, therefore the sins of the flesh, is no longer I that doeth them, (as Paul would say in Romans 7) but the sin the continues to dwell in the flesh.
Therefore I, now being born of the seed of the most high God, (remember…the first birth is the flesh, the second birth is of the spirit), cannot commit sin, 1 John 3:9, and since I cannot commit sin, I, DeWayne , the born again man of God, not DeWayne born of my momma (the first birth) have nothing to repent of.
A song writer penned these words, “What can wash away my sins?” And the reply still rings true today, “Nothing but the blood of Jesus”. The blood of lambs in the Old Testament covered sins for one year, the blood of the Lamb of God, covers our sins, once and for all, therefore what is there to repent of, there is no other sacrifice needed. Either our sins are under the blood of they are not.
When I sin in the flesh, I don’t pray to God to forgive me of my sin, or repent of my sin, I confess my sin and then I praise God and thank Him for the blood of the Lamb that covers my sins once and for all. Only blood can cover a transgression, not words of repentance, and if all of our transgressions are under the blood, then there is nothing to repent for. We have already been forgiven, therefore, let us praise God for the covering. Bro. Melvin, we are called by God to minister with the Word of reconciliation, 2 Cor. 5: 18 - 19, therefore beating up on those who preach in error or just for show is not our calling, and there are several scriptures that speak regarding against doing so: let the wheat grow up with the tares; the sun shines on the just and the unjust: get the splinter out of thine own eye, before one tries to remove the beam out of thine brothers; Judge not; and I can go on and on. The day of Judgment is in the hands of our Heavenly Father, and thank God it’s not in the hands of people.
I don’t judge people, not qualified, and there once was a time when I tried to even understand people, but the Lord sent someone into my life that helped me to see the error of that kind of thinking as well, and they told me that God told me to just love people and not try to understand them. I don’t have enough time to understand all the emotional, spiritual, physical baggage that people carry around with them. Therefore I choose to follow the example of my Lord “Love the Lord my God with all my heart, mind, soul and strength and my neighbor as myself and Proverbs 25:11 “A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver”.
Be blessed. I’ll check everyone’s thoughts later, at work reviewing my blog, oops another sin of the flesh…lol, thank God I don’t have to keep count, and guess what, He doesn’t either. I just set up my web site last week, so everyone please stop by, at your convience, and visit and sign my guest book http://www.revrap.com . Thanks
Rev. DeWayne Rap’ GoLightly
Where does scripture say that we aren’t to call out those who preach in error? I guess I shouldn’t have written about the error of your thinking. So, let’s just accept the erroneous thinking(better yet, heretical thinking) of JW’s, Mormons, WoF, Arminians(jk, LOL), SDAers and the rest. Let’s just let these cats teach what they want because the word, according to DeWayne, say it’s prohibited.
Seriously, I was just playing about Arminians being amongst the occult. It’s not a cult,… error, but not a cult.
Bro. Sincere, After 29 years of preaching the Word, I have yet to meet a man, who possesses complete knowledge or revelation of the scriptures, including myself, and ….you. I have on occasion reviewed some of my early sermons, and believe me, many were not worth the paper they were printed on. I have grown, and continue to grow. Yes there are cults that have taken the Word and changed, altered, and manipulated it to make their point. Then there are those who are men of God, stuggling to preach the uncompromising gospel: some with more revelation and insight than others but in their heart are attempting to reach the lost. Thank goodness, God looks at the heart. There is nothing wrong with calling out those who preach the gospel in error, but the tragedy is creating an impression that you or I have something to offer better. That my friend, is frightening. “We see in part and we know, in part”. I’m sure you’re more enlightened today, than you were 10 years ago, well, so am I, and I hope those brethren, preaching the gospel in error will continue to grow as well. Throw your stones if you must my friend, but know this, you run the risk of siding with the Pharisee in the temple, who thanked God he was not like other folk, personally I kind of fit in with the publican, who just beat his chest and asked God for mercy. Be Blessed Go.
Rev, with all due respect, I just called it like I saw it. You can go on and be the publican who sits idly by and watches as the wolves run off with the sheep. I’d rather be like John warning the “beloved” saying, “Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.”
I never even alluded to the thought that I have something better to offer anyone. I can only offer the gospel. The true gospel, not a distorted one.
You say thank goodness that God looks at the heart. Tell me, what does He see when He looks at it? Wickedness! So we must test everyone by the Word of God, and if that person doesn’t come with the gospel delivered once for all to the saint, let them be anathama.
But I appreciate the humility of your posts, and I only hope that I can do the same.
“Be always reforming”
You said, “If you’re saved, then you’re not a sinner, and if you are saved, then you have nothing to repent from.” That’s HERESY!
In reality, born again Christian can and DO sin. “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” 1 John 1:8
In James 5:19-20, Christians who sin are referred to as “sinners”.