(MN:  You know, it’s great that you agree with me.  But you gotta learn to speak English and not Academese.   Sentences [as opposed to a string of clauses] would be good too.  I tried to break it into more readable segments, but I would have to have added too much and risked saying something other than what you have intended to say. [which, by the way, I agree with])

And, reformers(not all) believe that those who end up in hell do so because they reject the gospel.  Your problem is that you don’t believe that we all deserve hell.  We all deserve to be burned, BUT GOD because of His mercy, He saves us, otherwise we’d all reject the gospel (we are all by nature children of wrath).

You need to go back to the drawing board.

Now, the obvious questions are as follows: Who ordained them to eternal life? Why did they believe?

Just from reading the verse, it seems fairly obvious that God ordained them and they believed because God ordained them.

You keep running down folks like me by disagreeing with things we don’t say and things we don’t do. Please just argue the facts, not your accusations.

By the way, if I accept the teaching that Jesus’ death on the cross didn’t pay the price and that He had to suffer in hell, and that He became the first Born Again man, then I am worshipping another Jesus and following another gospel. And I’m not saved. And when I die and lift up my eyes, I will be in hell as a result of following that false Jesus.

THE CALVINIST SYSTEM TRIES TO RECONCILE THINGS THAT CANNOT BE RECONCILED IN THIS WORLD.

Consider Acts 13:48 and Acts 13:46

Verse 48 is a pet Calvinist verse: “And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.”

The Calvinist says, “See, here is a plain statement that those who believe are those who are sovereignly ordained to believe.” The problem is that the word “sovereignly” is added to what this verse actually states and Calvinist doctrine is read into the verse to make it say, “…as many as were sovereignly and arbitrarily elected believed.” Any possibility that God’s foreknowledge could allow for the exercise of human will is entirely discounted, but there is nothing in the verse itself to require such an interpretation.

Also, in verse 46 we see a different story. “Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.”

Here we see that salvation is associated with man’s response to the gospel. According to the plain teaching of this verse, these Jews did not go to Hell because they were not part of the elect or because they were sovereignly elected to reprobation, but simply because they refused to believe. They reprobated themselves. Paul told them that God wanted to give them everlasting life and they rejected it.

The scripture reveals God wanted man to do something, but they did not do it. Why? Because they have a “free will” to make their own decisions. The sovereignty of God never forces man to do anything.

Using your logic in theology, how do you answer this?

If God’s sovereignty over powered man’s will because we had no free will, then God’s anointed, David, wouldn’t have been able to sleep with another man’s wife and have her husband killed. Why didn’t the sovereignty of God stop God’s anointed from sinning? David was not only God’s anointed; He was a leader.

Why does God plead with people to repent if they are incapable of doing so by His sovereign decree? Read the following small sampling of scriptures below and ask how they can possibly be reconciled with unconditional election/damnation without making God insincere at best and a cruel deceiver at worst:

Oh that they had such a heart in them, that they would fear Me, and keep all My commandments always, that it may be well with them and with their sons forever! (Deut. 5:29).

But My people did not listen to My voice; and Israel did not obey Me. So I gave them over to the stubbornness of their heart, to walk in their own devices. Oh that My people would listen to Me, that Israel would walk in My ways! I would quickly subdue their enemies, and turn My hand against their adversaries (Ps. 18:11-14).

Say to them, “As I live!” declares the Lord God, “I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?” (Ezek. 33:11)

Hundreds of scriptures like these could be cited. Why would God lament that His people would NOT change their hearts and plead with them to do so if they were unable to do so by His own sovereign decree? If that were actually the case, God is a fool. (Neither must He understand, as Calvinists do, that people are totally depraved and are incapable of turning from sin.)

Again, it’s up to man to believe and take the initiative to repent.

(MN:Despite all the verses you quoted (and good ones they were, by the way), why does one man take the initiative to repent and the other not? Why does one man believe and the other not? Why does one man choose God and the other not? And what ever reason you give, the follow-on question will be “Why did the first one have that quality and the other not?”  How do you give one a quality that results in slavation and not attribute that person’s salvation to something worthwhile within that person as opposed to the shortfall in the second one?  And having done that, how do you keep the person’s salvation from being the result of some merit (even if it’sm icroscopic) on the part of the person who showed the initiatve?   I don’t expect you to get to the point you will eventually end up if you are objective enough in the answers.  But that’s fine.  We can differ on this.  Hey, even the church I attend is basically Arminian.   )

I disagree with your position. Neither does the bible when rightly divided and correctly interpreted agree with your position.

Contrary to the FALSE teaching of Calvinism, believers have some input in their conversion. If this weren’t true, God wouldn’t have said in His word the following:

“Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.” Acts 3:19

{It was up to them to take action. They were commanded to turn from their sins. So their sins would be removed. Repentance was the condition to be met.}

“And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 18:3

{Jesus commanded them to take the actions. Otherwise, they would not be allowed to enter God’s Kingdom. Conversion was the condition to be met.}

“But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.” James 1:22

{It’s up to the believer to take the initiative to DO the word by obeying it.}

Throughout the New Testament, God commanded men to repent. It’s up to them to take the initiative and perform the action to repent. Matthew 3:2, 4:17, Mark 1:15, 6:12, Luke 13:3, Acts 2:38, 3:19, 17:30, 26:20, 2 Corinthians 7:10, 2 Peter 3:9, Revelations 2:5, 2:16, 2:22, 3:3, 3:19

The Holy Spirit doesn’t make man do anything. Because of man’s free will, the Holy Spirit can be resisted. Acts 7:51 It’s up to us to resist the devil. James 4:7

Repentance is a prerequisite for forgiveness of sins. Acts 2:38, 8:22; Mark 1:4, Luke 3:3. If the doctrine of Christ is taught correctly, repentance is part of the foundational teaching. Acts 20:21, Hebrews 6:1 It’s supposed to be a part of the gospel preached. Mark 1:15, 6:12, Luke 24:47, Acts 17:30, 20:21, 26:20 Yet most preachers are not preaching repentance as God commanded. There’s a big difference between merely mentioning the word “repent” and actually preaching it.

(MN: TF - Three things: Your comment was in no way related to the posting. Your comment was in response to a posting that has been closed. Your comment was nothing but a shotgun blast of verses, most of which didn’t even address the issue of God’s sovereignty. Instead of throwing verses out shotgun fashion, do me a favor. Read the post “Puppies Are So Cute” and then, address the argument. Many of the verses you listed have little or nothing to do with the actual issue which is this: If I made some contribution to my salvation, no matter how small, then I did some measure of work for my salvation. This goes against the idea of salvation being free, not a matter of works. If I decided (on my own while I am unsaved) to accept Jesus Christ, then there was something in me that was worthy of salvation. But we know this is not so.

The signs of a truly immature christian (even if they have supposedly been save for years) are the thoughtless shotgun effect you present and a basic disdain for rules. Think it through and address the issues.  Heck, you would do well to emulate Rev_Ak even if I do disagree with him. At least his response was not a knee-jerk, thoughtless blurt. You completely ignored all of the issues in the sovereignty vs man’s decision debate.

I will post this comment, and I will post it here. As I said, I am a gracious tyrant. And I want to let people see a non-relevant response to the issue. But don’t push my graciousness. )

I get tired of this. The majority of preachers and pastors out there do not live like the tv preachers. And I’m tired of the thinking that you have to be poor and not have anything to be authentic. That’s a load of garbage. There will always be people who are wealthy, people who are poor and people who are somewhere in between. If all we focus on is the external, then that’s not right.

People don’t want to come to church because of what’s on the inside of them. Even if you don’t want to be a part of the ‘mega church’ ’superstar preacher’ phenomena, it doesn’t mean that you can’t find a smaller, less flashy church to worship, fellowship and learn the Word of God.

The preacher only plays one part. He or she can’t save us. They can only present us with the Word. We have a responsibility to reach up to Him and foster a relationship. Don’t let the people you witness to use that as an excuse. Because that’s all it is, an excuse. You are just as bad as they are when you say, well that’s why it’s so hard to witness.

Then I have a woman on my job I once witnessed to and she told me she will never join the church because all they want is your money and that too many Pastors drive big expensive cars using the member’s money while the members are standing at bus stops going to church.  It just makes it harder for me to witness. Not only do I have to convince that Muslim brother and non-believing sister that Jesus is God in the flesh and that He died on the cross for our sins, I also have to convince them the gospel that Long and those other hucksters preach is not the gospel of Jesus Christ.