You can’t be a little dead or slightly pregnant. You either are, or you are not. And in the same way, you can’t be slightly Arminian. You either are or you aren’t. If you are even “slightly Arminian” you deny, to some degree, the sovereignty of God. And if you deny the sovereignty of God, you make God less than God since one of His characteristics is sovereignty. It also goes against the basic tenet of Christianity that says we are saved by Grace. And no matter how little work is required, any amount of works negates the idea of grace.
Consider this scenario:
There are two young men. I present the Gospel to both of them at the same time. And I must say, I do a sterling job of it. I explain the Gospel clearly. They understand it completely. It makes sense to both of them.
One of these young men, let’s call him Roscoe, accepts Jesus Christ as his savior. The second one, Bubba, does not.
Forty-five years later, Rosoe and Bubba die at the exact same instant. Roscoe, who accepted Jesus Christ, goes to be with the Lord. Bubba, who rejected Jesus Christ, busts hell wide open.
First question: Why did Roscoe accept Jesus Christ and Bubba reject Him?
Remember, according to Titus 3:5,
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
In other words, there was nothing in Roscoe that “caused” God to save him. Given Titus 3:5 and Ephesians 2:8-9, you really can’t say any of the following:
- He saved Roscoe because he knew Roscoe was going to repent of his sins
- He saved Roscoe because Roscoe was a perceptive person and understood the truth of the Gospel
- Roscoe sought God and Bubba didn’t
Follow me for a moment, item by item.
First answer: Saying that God saved Roscoe because He knew Roscoe was going to repent merely delays having to ultimately answer the same question in a different form. The question becomes “Why did Roscoe repent and Bubba not repent?” If Roscoe repented because he felt godly sorrow for his sins, then the question becomes: Why did Bubba not feel godly sorrow for his sins? At some stage in this process, you will get to the point that there was something of worth in Roscoe and not in Bubba. You will have to conclude that Roscoe has/did/does/thinks/believes something that poor old Bubba didn’t. And as a result, God saved Roscoe because Roscoe has/did/does/thinks/believes something and He rejected Bubba because Bubba didn’t have/do/think/believe something. Whatever it is you say Roscoe did and Bubba didn’t do, you must ask what or who caused Roscoe to do what he did and why Bubba didn’t do it. If Roscoe did this thing in and of himself, then you have God reacting to something within Roscoe, contrary to the idea of salvation being by grace and not merit, no matter how small the merit.
Second answer: If we say Roscoe was perceptive and Bubba wasn’t, then, unless we go down the road we just paved in #1, we have to conclude that God saved Roscoe because Roscoe was perceptive. But the instant you say that, you now attribute to Roscoe some characteristic that God found commendable. And that would mean that God saved Roscoe because of some quality in Roscoe. But Titus says this is not so.
Third answer: If you say that Roscoe sought God and Bubba didn’t, you now have to figure out how to get around such verses as Romans 5:8 and 8:8-10. These verses appear to say that the unsaved are God’s enemies. Further, they appear to state that the unsaved can’t obey God and don’t want to obey God. Romans 3:9 and 10 are even more specific when they say that there is none righteous and none seek after God. If the unsaved don’t want to obey God and don’t want to seek God, why did Roscoe, who was unsaved, decide to obey God, or to seek God? Again, the conclusion (Roscoe sought God and Buba didn’t) would virtually demand that Roscoe did something to earn God’s salvation and Bubba didn’t. But there is the same lack in Roscoe (prior to salvation) as there is in Bubba.
If left to their own devices, Roscoe and Bubba will not choose God. They don’t want to obey God and they are enemies of God. They will not and cannot obey God’s law. (Romans 8:7-10; 5:10). Additionally, while unsaved, Roscoe and Bubba are slaves to sins (Romans 6:20). Before salvation, they are dead, dead in their sins (Eph 2:1) They could not choose God. They do not seek God. The question we are left with is: Why does one person (Roscoe) accept Jesus Christ and the other (Bubba) die in his sins?
Now, rather than automatically appealing to verses that say such things as “…but God is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance,” we need to chase my question out and then come back and take a look at such verses as 2 Peter 3:9. Appealing to these Scriptures doesn’t answer the question. Remember, the question is not “Does God want everybody saved?” Neither is it “Do we have to repent in order to become a Christian?” The question, slightly rephrased, is: “Why did Roscoe accept Jesus Christ and Bubba reject him?”
Remember, the Gospel was presented to them at the same time, using the same words. Forty-five years later they died.
I will give each of you who choose to answer this question two “nonsense postings”. That is, you may make the usual knee-jerk response, even if in different forms, twice. You can even make a comment identical to a comment already made - twice. So pay attention, think, and answer the question. Don’t give me your objections, and don’t give me your estimations of what one must do to be saved. Let’s not get ahead of ourselves. And please remember, I will work very hard at not being uncivil to any of you no matter what your answer. ‘Cause gosh, I’m just that kind of guy.
Finally, please don’t make moronic comments about a true believer can’t believe this or that. Those types of response miss the mark by a huge degree.
Let the answers begin!!!
…….waits to see how many people will go to the opposite direction without balance (i.e.- ‘If God is in control of it, then that makes God the author of evil….why evangelize…etc….) and then pass it off as nonsense without still thinking it thorugh…..
Here’s a hint folks…. Ezekiel 36:22-33….THEN come to the discussion.
As each of us are individuals, (”before I formed you in the womb, I knew you”) I believe in the concept of “Free Moral Agency.” That God loved each of us enough that He has given each of us the ultimate choice whether to accept or reject Him. In the way that the question is posed, I think you are going down the road of pre-destination: Roscoe accepted Jesus because he was “elect” and Bubba did not because he wasn’t elect. In my opinion, that is not true. We each are given a choice: John 1:12 “as many as recieved Him…John 3:16 “…WHOSEVER will…” That whosoever means me, and it means you.(is this becoming “nonsnese”??) As for the passage in Ezekiel, it is clearly talking about Israel. They were dispersed for 2000 years, and in spite of rejecting God, he has broght them back to the promised land. In order that His word be fufilled. The parallel here is that just as Isreal did not deserve to be broght back, we, as Gentiles do not deserve salvation.
(Melvin’s Note: I’m not going down any road. I posed the question the way I did to save you the trouble of saying I am going down this road or I am going down that road. At this stage of the discussion it is up to you to determine the answer to the question (Why did Roscoe accept Christ and Bubba reject him?) Remember what I said at the beginning of this post: Answer the question, don’t tell me why you don’t believe this or that, or quote scriptures to tell me why what you think I am saying is not correct. The question: Why did Bubba reject Jesus Christ and Roscoe accept Him? I’m not asking you to demonstrate that we are free will agents (which, by the way, I agree with).
And no, it’s not nonsense.
Are we having fun yet boys and girls?)
Information seeking question: Why are you doing a post on election?
Ok, after strike one, I will take another cut…
Paul asks an interesting question about Rosoce and Bubba in Romans 9:21:
“Has not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?”
Bubba rejected Christ because he:
1) Did not call on His name Rom. 10 :13 (Why did Roscoe call on His name?)
2) did not believe in Him John 3:18 Romans 10:14 (Why did Roscoe believe on Him?)
3) lived after the flesh Rom 8:13 Gal. 6:19-21 (Why did Roscoe choose not to live after the flesh?)
4) Rejected the Spirit’s call Rom 8:14 (Why did Roscoe not reject the Spirit’s call?)
Roscoe (P. Coltrain??) , on the other hand, did accept the Gospel, John 3:16-18, Roman 10:13-14. (I am doing this on the fly, so there won’t be a “plethera” of diverse scriptures) so Roscoe has fufilled the obligation to be saved…I’ll leave the thought of wheter or not Roscoe can forfeit his salvation for another time. Have I passed yet, or will I have to send another draft to the professor????
(I think you are doing well. You’re not giving the usual knee-jerk reaction (KJR). BTW - your on the fly is pretty good.)
I haven’t checked on all the scriptures that Rev_ak has posted but I answer the question similarily to him based on John chapter 3 - which is dealing with being born again.
Simply stated its man’s decision to receive the calling.
Scriptural proof:
Is Christ not answering this question?
Answer: Roscoe wanted his deeds reproved and Bubba didn’t.
(MN: Why did Roscoe want his deeds reproved and why didn’t Bubba? )
I can answer straight forward, but its not my answer. I’m responding via scripture. I know the corner your leading me towards but that corner has to fit with the rest of the room/house. Having said that: I have to repeat what Christ and the scriptures state:
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
He answered the question. Now I know its not a popular answer because of the Theology thats’ behind this Posting but its right there.
(MN: First, he didn’t answer the question of why Roscoe chose and Bubba didn’t. He merely said some come to the light. The question is [again] why do some choose to come to the light and others not? I’m not forcing you into a corner. I’m simply asking you the question that begs to be asked. Why did Roscoe seek to have his condemnation removed and Bubba not. At this point, you have Roscoe doing something that made him acceptable to God. That means God chose him because of merit within Roscoe. You have differentiated between Roscoe and Bubba. But the Bible [and Jesus] put us all in the same condition.
What was the difference between Roscoe and Bubba, and where did that difference come from? )
For clarity sake is this posting subject to Covenants???
Meaning does any First Covenant principles apply???
Election? Who said this is a posting on election? At the moment, I am asking you to explain why one person accepted Jesus Christ as his savior and why Bubba rejected Him?
The question does not automatically point toward the doctrine Election. In fact, your answer could allow you to stay as far away from the doctrine of election as you wish…as long as you answer the question without generating more questions.
Question: Why did Bubba reject Jesus Christ as his savior and Roscoe accept Jesus Christ as his savior?
I would like to try to give my answer.
First Salvation is of the Lord. If the Lord does not quicken a man’s dead heart he will never chose God. I can use my own conversion.
I know many that have heard the same Gospel message as myself and are still to this day not redeemed. The only thing I can say is one day I was doing what I did best, living just like all those that are still lost. But at an appointed time that God had chosen He quicken my dead heart. I did not say a sinner’s prayer or walk down the aisle for an alter call. It is the Sovereign God thru his GRACE and MERCY who calls anyone.
Yes Ezekial 36 is to Israel if you have dispensational presuppositions. Thankfully Scripture is not divided like that. Why do I say that? Because how the N.T. applies O.T. promises, prophecies and the like to the church and to himself. Christ told Nicodemus that “unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom?”, that “unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God”. Don’t attribute this to water baptism. Because I will say, like Christ said, “you are a teacher and you don’t know these things?” Christ was referring to Ezekial 36:25-27.
Also, Jeremiah 31 is to all the nations. Because this New Covenant is the same covenant that Christ ushered in. The new testament speaks of this covenant as to all believers(Jew or Gentile, ONE BODY)(see 1 Cor. 11:25; 2 Cor. 3:6; Heb. 8:7). Besides if we are seed’s of Abraham, won’t we take part in these promises. He was a father of many nations, not just Israel. Anyways.
Roscoe (lovin’ the name) was given a heart of flesh (a la Ezek. 36) and his stony heart was taken out. God regenerates. If He didn’t ( Bubba)(Why did He not regenerate Bubba?), then He can’t accept the gospel. Why? Because dead men don’t accept anything. He is free to choose sin, and that’s all he will do. Besides this, John is very clear that “all who did recieve him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor the will of flesh nor of the will of man, but of God” (John 1:12,13). The Holy Spirit regenerates the heart, which activates faith (Roscoe). DEAD MEN CAN’T PRODUCE FAITH, THEY ARE DEAD(Bubba) (Why did the Holy Spirit not regenerate Bubba’s heart?).
To see this all played out. Visit Lydia in Acts 16:14-15. The Lord opened her heart and gave her a heart of flesh. Because we are born of God we will overcome the world(1 John 5:4).
If He didn’t ( Bubba) (Why did He not regenerate Bubba?), (Why did the Holy Spirit not regenerate Bubba’s heart?).
It’s simple. If you believe in the sovereignty of God, and you believe the scriptures. It’s all to the pleasure of His will and purposes (Eph. 1:5). And Romans 9:18, He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills”. God does as He pleases, who can stay His hand.
No one likes this answer, but it’s clearly defined in Scripture.
Actually, Ezekiel 36 has nothing to do with dispensationalism and only secondarily has to do with Israel (physical), so much as it does with Israel (spiritual).
But I digress. Re-read the passage. You answered it correctly with Acts 16:14-15
I’d have to disagree with you BlackCalv. If I was dispensational, then if I saw these passages, Israel is all it’s referring to. And I don’t see, as you say, (spiritual) Israel. That’s what dispy’s do (No offense anyone). They don’t see how the N.T applies O.T. scriptures to believers now. If you don’t see what I’m saying, then my bad, but I would have to disagree with you on that one.
Oh,okay, that makes sense. So, why does one choose Christ and not the other? The reason: The one desired Christ and the other did not! Now the question is why did the one desire Christ? He desired for he was first desired. We have loved because we have FIRST been loved.
Bubba hardened his heart when he heard the word of truth, and the reason could’ve been because he has watch so many that claim to be Christians slip and slid with this walk, that he saw no point to it. (Roscoe saw those same people. Why didn’t he decide to forget about it?) Roscoe, I believe had an inward yearning for the truth and when it(truth) was spoken Holy Spirit beared witness to his Spirit and he made a decision for Christ (Why didn’t Bubba yearn for the the truth?).
So then, it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who has mercy(Rom. 9:16).
We’d have to ask Bubba why he didn’t decide to accept the Lord. We can look at all of the theology (predestination, election etc), but at the end of the day it was Bubba’s decision. (Sorry. You can’t dismiss it that blithely. Bubba never accepted Jesus Christ. Whatever his reason, why did he not act on the benefit of salvation? Why didn’t Roscoe have the same reaction?) Why some decide to accept Christ and other don’t is too deep for our finite understanding (Not really. But saying that is a lot easier and a lot more comfortable than actually wrestlin with the issue. And it is an issue.). The Bible has scriptures that support “election” and “free will” yet we know that the Bible doesn’t contradict itself…… (We haven’t said anything about free will and election or contradictions. I am waiting for y’all to give your answers. I would suggest though, that the answer you gave is somewhat typical [and certainly understandable]. But it doesn’t answer the question of why Bubba rejected Jesus Christ and why Roscoe accepted Him. It was, at best, a somewhat transparent attempt to side-step the issue.)
The Question: Why did Roscoe accept Jesus Christ and Bubba reject Him?
(Ladies and gentlemen, I promise you the comment below is not from me. What ever you do, don’t turn on Eric. He is, afterall, giving an aswer to the question. Granted, he’s giving a little more than an aswer and it’s kind of wordy (I suspect he may be a…aarrgghh!!!…presbyterian). But you have to be nice to him anyway. And don’t start nattering on about man’s doctrine and how Eric must be a Baptist. Just explain, as Eric did, why Bubba rejected Jesus Christ and Roscoe accepted Him.)
In the words of the Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter 3, Article 1:
1. God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.
What does this mean? First, it points to God’s absolute sovereignty over every affair even the affairs of individuals. This is a biblical truth and a given about God. Eph 1:11 and Isa 46:10. Second, it points also that human beings do act according to their own natures and wills. A biblical illustration of this second point is Pharoah. The Lord told Moses repeatedly that he would “harden” Pharaoh’s heart (see Exodus 7:13). What does this mean? In hardening Pharaoh’s heart, the Lord simply let Pharaoh act according to his natural self, his unregenerate will. The Lord willed to redeem his elect, Israel, from Pharaoh; but within the Lord’s will he would harden Pharaoh’s heart to demonstrate his power over wickedness and evil and also to show Israel that it was by the Lord’s power and grace that they received salvation from Egypt.
Regarding salvation, there is an acute similarity. Those whom the Lord has elected will repent and believe the gospel. They do owing to the Lord’s gracious work in their hearts giving them the ability to repent and believe. Note these two passages: Acts 11:18; 13:48; 16:14. All of these passages clearly teach that it is the Lord’s work through his Word and Spirit upon the dead hearts of sinners that enable them to repent and believe. This work is designed for those whom the Lord has elected from the foundations of the world. See Eph 1:4; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; and 2 Timothy 1:9. These passages with lucidity and precise teach us who is the author and finisher of the faith of the elect.
Only the elect of God will repent and believe the gospel. The reprobate will never repent and believe because they live physically according to their sinful nature. Note what Jeremiah states about the heart of man: “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desparately wicked: who can know it? (Jer 10:9).” The following verse states that the Lord give to every man according to his works. What a passage! Who can stand up to the scrutiny of God? No one. All would perish except for God’s gracious election of a people (see Deut 7:6-8; Titus 2:14).
God’s election of a people is also an election of individuals such as Adam, Eve, Abel, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Joshua, David, etc.
If we understand the holiness of God and the depravity of man, we would know that grace is just that. There is nothing in man that deserves God to be gracious to him especially a grace unto salvation.
There is so much to say on this topic because it is the glorious gospel of our God and Father and his Son Jesus Christ.
FYI….
I just blogged on this topic.
http://blog.theologicallycorrect.com .
Bubba rejected Jesus Christ. There are several possible explanations why.
1) the easiest expalnation: he didn’t want to!! He was “stony soil” and rejected the Word as he heard it because of the cares of this world (Why was Roscoe not affected by the cares of the world?), and becuase he had a hardened heart. (Why was Bubba’s heart hardened and Roscoe’s heart not hardened?)
2) He wasn’t “chosen” , or “elect”. Roscoe was, and therefore it was all in the cards for Roscoe; he didn’t really have to do too much (How much did he have to actually do, and why did he do it?). It was his destiny to be saved, and it was Bubba’s destiny to be dammned. (this is a concept I reject - (I understand. But that isn’t the issue. Remember the question: Why did Roscoe believe and why did Bubba reject the Gospel?))
3) There is a slight possibilty that Bubba did not understand the Word (connotation in Matt. 13:23 suggests that one has to be competent enough to understand the Gospel), but given the wonderful job that you did presenting the word, that is highly unlikely!!! I already did my best to answer why Roscoe accepted, so that’s all I have for now….(He understood. That was one of the premises of this entire scenario)
Bubba rejected Jesus because, in his blindness and ignorance, he saw Jesus as ugly and and wretched.
Roscoe ‘received Jesus’ because the Great Physician gave him eyes to see and ears to hear (And why did the Great Physician give eyes and ears to Roscoe and not to Bubba? Afterall, before The Great Physician gave Roscoe those seeing eyes and hearing ears, he was rejecting Jesus as well.), and once that happened he could do nothing but joyfully run after the most precious thing in the world.
So far, except for a couple of Presbyterians, you have all given reasons that lie within Bubba and Roscoe. But if the reason for accepting lies within Roscoe or if the reason for rejecting lies within Bubba, the God made the decision based on some positive qualities, or at least the lack of negative qualities within Roscoe. And we all agree that God doesn’t work that way (Titus 3:5).
I think most of you believe I am trying to force you into a particular answer. But I’m not. The tension here is due to the fact that we haven’t gotten past the “usual” answers of “Roscoe chose JEsus because Roscoe…and Bubba rejected Jesus because Bubba…” This answer says that they came into salvation or missed it because of something within themselves. But over and over again, the Bible says there is nothing good within us, that none of us seek God, that we are dead in our sins, that we are desperately wicked. Given these conditions, if left to my own devices, why would I, on my own, choose Jesus?
I know you don’t much like where this is, in fact going, but all you have to do is give me an answer that doesn’t go that way. Don’t tell me why “that way” isn’t right. Instead find another way that doesn’t depend on some quality or lack of quality within the believer/rejector.
The only answer is that our sovereign God loves Roscoe and hates Bubba. This answer meets your requirement that it doesnt depend on some quality or lack of quality within the believer/rejector.
MJ,
I do not think we are “left to our own devices.” You are correct in saying if we are, we are condemned. (john 3:18) But that is the whole purpose of His advent, and part of the miracle of salvation!!!!(John 3:16-19) ! Thess. 5:9 says:
God has not ordained us for wrath (condemnation), but to obtain salvation in the Lord Jesus.” The key word here is “obtain”. We are hopeless without His grace!! We can of ourselves do nothing!! HOWEVER, He came to provide the necessary sacrifice for our sins, and by doing so, provided the way for us (you or I would NOT choose Him on our own (Then why DO we choose Him?)) But God didn’t want it to end that way, so He sent His Son. That is why the it does Not depend on any of our lack of quality etc, but on our ability to simply believe. (Not to be too difficult, but why did you believe and that poor schlep Bubba not believe?) (John 11:25,26)
(MN: Everything you have said is true. But you are not explaining to me why Rev_AK believed and Melvin the Pimp Slayer did not. Was it because you are so much smarter than me? Was it because I was so much more evil than you? )
Questions (rhetorical at best because I know I am not offering an answer to your initial question):
Do we really choose Him or is it the other way around , that HE chooses us? Are we not simply heeding the voice of the Lord when we come unto Him? Is the initial choice really ours to begin with? If we are truly created in His image, would He not choose something that is like Him? He wouldn’t come to something that is not like Him, right?
I ask these questions mostly because I’m trying to understand what has already been posted. Not that I expect a response, but I am too trying to come up with an answer not necessarily for “debate” purposes but for myself. Sometimes I wonder if “we” give ourselves too much credit for coming to the Lord…Was the act of coming really about us or all about Him?
I’m sure this falls into one of your “ramblings” categories…My apologies up front
(Tweet, it’s not at all rambling. Thanks.)
This is very fun!!! But I am NOT going to say that the only difference between a believer and non-believer is that one is “chosen” and one is not. You don’t have to. All you have to do is figure out how to keep from having God save me on the basis of ANY good thing in me [good decision, good attitude, good choice ’cause I’m smart, good perceptiveness, anything) I really can’t give you any more reasons why bubba did not beleive other than what I already listed. (Every reason you or anyone else lists has to be followed with “But why did Bubba not do that…reject that…accept that. Those answers, as I said earlier, simply move the ”why” question out a level. But they never really address it. I simply believe that people each have a personal choice when they are presented the Gospel (And how does the unbeliever, dead in his sins, an enemy of God, decide to follow God?) . I fully understand the reference of Romans 8:8-10, but how do we explain the state Roscoe, (or you and I) was in BEFORE he accepted the Lord? As for myself, there is no doubt I was living in the flesh, but verse 9 says I couldn’t have been “His” if I lived in the flesh. So a common question I ask to those who believe in predestination, is if we are chosen, why or how would we ever sin to begin with?? Why would God allow us to sin and then have to call us back to repentence?? If you are not trying to frame the debate in this direction, I apologize!! Long live the pimp-slayer!!
(MN: You have asked some outstanding questions toward the end of your comment.
)
Concerning:
Why would God allow us to sin and then have to call us back to repentence??
Could it not be because He is glorified when one of His children truly repents and turns from sin? I know I answered with a question, but I trust you will let it slide this time… (MN: But why does one repent and another not? Why did Roscoe turn from his sins, and Bubba not?)
MN: But why does one repent and another not? Why did Roscoe turn from his sins, and Bubba not?)
Given your follow-up questions, I do not quite see how one answering could not factor in (at the very least) the personality, if you will, of the individual in question. Could it be that Bubba did not feel convicted in his actions (please forgive me if I am repeating what has already been said)? Can one truly repent if they do not feel convicted? I suppose not, as shown by many people saying they are “sorry” but continuing in the same path; I guess they were not ever really convicted that what they were doing was against the will of God.
An overall question I have is, if God is the One who is the Initiator of (fill in the blank), is it really us that does not heed? Don’t we have to take some responsibility in our relationship with God? I want an interactive relationship, not a passive one where I only do if God does…
Sorry, I have been at work today….Tweet, you are going in the right direction…I do beleive that He chose us. You said we might give ourselves a little too much credit when we are saved. I believe that too. But you also asked “is the initial choice really ours to begin with?” The answer is yes.
Why? The one thing the predestination folks, (especially you “five-pointers” out there) are forgetting, is the Fall. When Adam and Eve sinned, they forfeited their predestination. I fully believe we are MEANT to be predestined. (2 Pet. 3:9) Since then, death has been our lot. (Rom. 5:12) God’s will is that none of us perish,(2 pet 3:9) but for all of us to COME TO REPENTECE. We have to make the decision. Plain and simple.
MJ, you were not saved because of something you did; but what He did. I will go ahead and reveal my big “secret”: I am an arminian. I can’t elaborate any more than I have, and I would not want to fall out of good graces by “bloviating.”
My best suggestion: print a side by side comparison of the “5 Points” verses the “5 Tennants.” The five tennants of Arminianism are not as well known as the “TULIP” and I think it would ease some reader’s fears that we are not people as prone to KJR’s and we have a philosophy behind oure belief.
I am not saying I am completely opposed to Calvinism, and I readily admit that some of the most respected minds in Christianity are Calvninists. There are just some issues that I can’t reconcile, like the questions I asked earlier. Like I said, I don’t want to take on the unfamiliar role as an antagonist on my favorite website in the wolrd!!!
P.S. Where are all those haters out there that accuse me of being a MJ Kool-aid drinker, or sycophant??????
Believe me Rev, I’ve known you were Arminian for a long time. That’s fine. As I’ve said before, the church I attend is Arminian, they just don’t always have the good sense to see it.
It’s almost impossible for you to fall out of my graces. And I must say, you are one of my favorite commenters. The primary reasons are your non-bloviation (even on this comment) , your virtually complete lack of KJRs, and your willingness to look at Scripture even if you don’t like it. Remember, you’re the guy who walked away from a “leadership position” based on your perception of people seriously violating the Word. It still blows me away when I think of that.
Unfortunately, most of the haters out there are not reading this series of comments. Why should they? It’s just dry theology.
For those of you who have been gracious enough to participate in this discussion (I hope you have gained as much from this as I have), I should have a posting with the second half of the issue shortly for you to take a look at. Though they have not been formally laid out, I think we have covered enough of the issues in the discussion and we have enough to work with. I suspect you will be somewhat surprised at my position.
By the way Rev, being an antogonist is not a bad thing. Sometimes you have to know what you don’t believe in order to better identify what you do believe. It’s not always comfortable, but it does make you grow.
Rev,
I just want to correct one thing on the predestination thing. We, as you say, “five-pointers” do acknowledge the fall. I would have to say that we do more so than arminians. We say the fall is complete, as scriptures says, “man is dead in trespasses”. Arminians says man is not dead from the fall, that he is not “Totally Depraved/Totally Inable”.
Also, Scripture doesn’t say that they forfeited their predestination, it says that they forfeited life, “you will surely die,” making them dead, and by imputation, making us dead in our sins and unable to come to the faith on our own power. So, I don’t want to bloviate on about how one man’s theology is more scriptural than anothers (unless you want me to).
Oh, and I’m not presbyterian.
Exactly right, Sincere. No place does the Bible address whether or not Adam and Eve exercised saving faith in God’s grace. And I like the direction you are going with the fallen nature thing. It definitely addresses the question of “Why Bubba rejected and Roscoe accepted salvation?”
Remember folks, both Bubba and Roscoe are dead, completely dead in their sins. And both of them were enemies of God. And neither one of them was able to nor wanted to obey God.
Please note that these statements are all very absolute and leave no room for anything they might contribute to their salvation.
As you have spent the last several days trying to answer the question, most of you kept attributing something Roscoe did to “cause” God to save him. I believe each of you are starting to see that we keep getting stuck because when ever we attribute something to Roscoe, we have to figure out what caused him to do it. And conversely, we have to figure out why Bubba didn’t do it.
Sincere,
First of all I wish you guys could see my good nature in this discussion. I live on the Indiana side of the Ohio river from Louisville Ky, and I have many friends that go to the southern Baptist seminary there. I have went many “rounds” with them over these issues, so when I made the “five pointer” comment, it was in jest. I have tried to articulate that I am a “moderate” on this issue. But I do take issue with one small comment ( in a friendly way):
“Arminians say man is not …totally depraved…”
Actually point #3 says
“Man can neither of himself nor of his free will do anything truly good untill he is born again of God, in Christ, through the Holy Spirit.”
MJ, the whole resignation thing has been really hard because now I am “Blacklisted” by my friends in my old denomination, and finding it hard to drum up preaching ventures, even though I do speak at a (gasp!) Baptist church in two weeks. I just don’t have any other comments untill the “second half” because you will say “what did Roscoe do…” and I will say “Jesus did it, Roscoe chose, Bubba didn’t.”
Rev, no offense taken. I didn’t even consider it. I wasn’t aware of point #3 for the Arminian, as it wasn’t in any of the books that I have on the subject. It seems it would contradict the whole theory of man, on his own volition choosing God. OR are you saying that you believe God elects man.
“Man can neither of himself nor of his free will do anything truly good until he is born again of God, in Christ, through the Holy Spirit.”
Help me, I’m confused.
Sorry this will be so lengthy….
Five Point of Arminianism
1) God has decreed to save through Jesus Christ those of the fallen and sinful race who through the grace of the Holy Spirit believe in Him, but leaves in sin the incorrigible and unbelieving.
2) Christ died for all men (not just the elect),but no one except the believer has remission of sin.
3) Already quoted above
4) All good deeds or movemnets in the regenerate must be ascribed to the grace of God, but His grace is not iresisistible.
5) Those who are incorporated into Christ by a true faith have power given them through the assisting grace of the Holy Spirit to perservere in the faith. But it is possible for a beleiver to fall from grace.
Now I don’t know what theory you referred to, but this is what it says. Remember, with all these man-made decrees, we do not have to believe everything they say. I do believe in election, to a degree.
Remember, it is God’s will that NONE of us die, but for us all to come to repentance. (2 Pet 3:9) But is there elcetion/predestination to such an extent that a person can do what they will their whole life and then suddenly, God arrives in the nick of time to save them? If that were true, why even preach the Gospel?? Why did Jesus bother to give the “Great Comission?” Why was it not more like: “go around preaching to the un-elect, so that on judgement day they will feel even worse. I got my chosen people covered. At some random point in each of their lives, I will go ahead and redeem them.”
Again I ask, since God is holy, and wants us to live Holy, why are the “elect” born in to sin? Why do they often times live in sin until they get saved? Why did Roscoe need Melvin to present the Gospel to him???? I will check back with y’all around 5 eastern!!
The Five Points of Arminianism as responded to by the TULIP. Sorry this might be long too.
1) Free Will. Arminius believed that the fall of man was not total, holding that there was enough good left in man for him to will to accept Christ unto salvation.
2) Conditional Election. Arminius further taught that election was based upon the foreknowledge of God as to who would believe. In other words there was a condition in Bubba that God liked, so He elected him.
3) Universal Atonement. Conviction that God loves everybody (except for that Esau), that Christ died for everyone, and that the Father is not willing that any should perish (even though many will). Roscoe exercised his free will to accept Christ.
4) Obstructable Grace. Since God wanted all men to be saved, He sent the Holy Spirit to woo all men to Christ. However since man is so hard-headed in his free will, he is able to resist (amazing, resisting God! Wow!) God’s will for his life. Arminians believe dead men exercise faith, then they become regenerated. So, finite man can frustrate the plans of an all-powerful God (again, amazing).
Drumroll please….
5) Falling from Grace. If man cannot be saved by God unless it is man’s will to be saved, then man cannot continue in salvation unless he continues to will to be saved. Where’s the trust? Again, amazing, man can remove himself from the hands of God, even though Christ said no one could. Amazing.
Come on Rev, don’t go there with the why evangelize stuff. Why are the “elect” born in sin? Come on Rev. Seriously. In Adam, all sinned. Why did God even create us? I mean come on with those questions. We live in sin, because we are sinners, and until God’s regenerating us, we will continue to live in sin. Dead people can’t do anything but be dead, not half dead, not a third dead, but fully dead(that’s redundant). Roscoe needed the gospel to be preached because it’s good news.
Now I ask you. What do you think God saw in you that made you so special that He just had to have you in heaven?
Sincere,
These are the “round and round arguments”I was talking about!! God didn’t see anything special in me at all!!! BUT HE LOVED ME ANYWAY!!! So He sent His son to die for me, to make the atonement for my sin that I could never have done.
So if we live in sin until God regenerates us, what makes God decide that a certain sinner needs to be regenerated??? (MN: You just asked the “crux” question. What made God decide to regenerate this sinner or that sinner but not the other sinner?”) ”Oh, that Bubba lusted again, I think I’ll go ahead and activate My Election for him, so send a
preacher to him, (just as a formality) and even though it is a foregone conclusion that he will accept My son, invite him anyway.”
You made my point for me by pointing out that all men are born into sin since Adam. (rom 5:12) So if Roscoe was dead, a point which we all agree, why did God allow His chosen, elect person to live a life that sends all those poor, non-elect losers to hell? (Again you have brushed up against the real issue. The issues with the hard answers.)
A debate tactic to demogouge the questions by saying “Come on with the questions.” Seriously, even though I am having a lot of fun, and smiling as I write this, why evangelize?? If we are all going to go down the road we have been arguing for years, let’s go all the way!!!
Why the need for Melvin to present the Gospel to Roscoe OR Bubba since either of their destinies were already decided??? Why preach, why have the Great Commission, why have church? We have no way of knowing who God decided to choose, but maybe the odds are as good as 50-50. These issues, plus the acts that Calvin committed once he came into power, (look it up) are the reasons I personally am not a Calvinist. Will you at least admit there may be a few flaws in the TULIP???
Well, I don’t follow the man Calvin. And luckily he is not my savior, so his flaws, as I have read up on them already, are not my focus. Christ is.
I would say that any system of theology is not a perfect parameter for beliefs, but what is true is true. I don’t really like using the term Calvinism for the very same reason that you talked about him, because you think that I would put him for Christ. Never that. We don’t worship our theology, we worship the one true God as He is revealed in Scripture and He is a sovereign God who rules over all creation and nothing is ever unknown to Him including our salvation.
You say you don’t hold to the doctrines of grace because of man (what sense does that make). Let me ask you this. Do you deny the truths of scripture from Peter because he denied Christ 3 times? I doubt it. Men are stumbling blocks, but we gotta hold to the truths of Scripture. Should Blacks not become Christian because of white slaveowners? Hold to truths because they’re the truth of Scripture. The 5 points of Arminianism is a man-centered theology (show me how God gets the glory).
We evangelize because we are commissioned to. We evangelize because how will they hear unless someone preaches. We don’t know who the elect are, we don’t know who the reprobate are. God ordains the means and the ends. I ask why did you ask that because I would think that you have debated more “calvinists” than that. You know the answer. Don’t get me confuse with a hyper-calvinist, that’s heretical. We should be overjoyed with the fact that we don’t have the stress of getting people to heaven. We preach Christ and him crucified. God does all. He saves, He regenerates, He calls, He chooses. I don’t downplay mans responsiblity, nor mans accountability. But salvation is of the Lord.
Sincere,
Last thoughts on this for a while….
Salvation is in the Lord, like you said.
It is by grace we are saved, not works.
You make it sound like I am giving man some kind of glory because I believe he must choose to accept his redemption in Christ Jesus, or deny Christ.
I don’t deny Peter’s works becuase he denied Jesus. It’s funny you should mention Peter….
When Jesus appeared to Mary, He said “go tell the disciples AND Peter, meaning Peter didn’t consider himself a disciple anymore following what he did. (why??) Apply the logic of my philosophy, and you will realize that NO ONE wrote any scripture who was unsaved!! (even though a really great topic for dicussion is “is Solomon in heaven?” one which I really can’t say yea or nay)
Peter also wrote a famous “Arminian” verse:
2 Peter 1:10-11 (read also 1-9)
“Therefore Brethren be all the more dilligent to make your calling and ELECTION sure, for as long as you practice these things, you will never fall.
11) for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.”
You also asked “how will they hear unless someone preaches???” My point is, why do they still need to hear if they are “elect?” If man doesn’t play a part (one really really small one-making a choice) in his salvation, why does he still have the need to be preached to??? the theology is NOT man-centered, just centered on the belief that we have to accept that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life.
Rev, my last thoughts.
Arminianism is man-centered because it says the work of salvation is in his hands. Of course you’re going to say it’s not man-centered. It’s all about Man’s choosing, and Man’s sustaining his own salvation.
That is a good observation about Peter and his denial. The gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John discuss this. But again, where you see man, you fail to see God. In Matthew and Mark, Christ said all would fall away, and they all said they wouldn’t. Christ lost none. I admit that we will go through seasons where we don’t desire God, or where we backslide, but His true children overcome(1 John 5:4,5). Also, in the gospel of Luke, Christ told Peter that He prayed that his faith would not fail, and that after he had turned back, to strengthen his brothers(Luke 22:31,32).
So where Arminians see man, we see God, restoring and sustaining.
Again, we don’t know who the elect are, nor the reprobate. Only God does. But all who are chosen will come to the faith by hearing the word of God.
What do you mean you don’t know where Solomon is? How many sins does it take to lose your salvation? And how do you know you haven’t exceeded that limit? Was Solomons trust in Christ, or was it in his works. I bet you would say that David is in heaven.
I’ll ask you how can someone who is unregenerate choose God when the word says he can’t?
The “answers” seem to generate more questions….lol
God gives man the opportunity to choose Him or reject Him. Did Jesus “make” the disciples follow Him? Did God make Abraham, Issac and Jacob follow Him?
God does not interfere with our choice, but he knows who will choose Him. God knew that Bubba would not choose Him, yet he still offered Bubba his gift. (Then why do some choose and others reject?)
Dear ThaWatcher:
I agree with your above comments.
“And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” Joshua 24:15
God used Joshua to tell Israel they had to make the choice to serve the Lord. Therefore, all of us have a “free will” to make our own decisions. We are not victims of Total Depravity!
So TRUTH, you were not shapen in iniquity. You haven’t since your youth gone on speaking lies. Your heart isn’t deceitful above all things. Somehow you and others like you are good, even though scripture says your not. Remember, totally depraved doesn’t mean that you are as bad as you can be, it just means that you are incapable of seeing the glory of Christ because you have been veiled by Satan. You can’t see Christ unless God regenerates you. It’s impossible for someone dead to do anything.
There are a myriad of reasons why some choose Him and some don’t. (Whatever the reason, why did Roscoe have that reason and Bubba not?) Sometimes people choose and reject him for the same reason! (isn’t that bugged out?) Take hell for instance, some choose Him because they don’t want to go to hell (Why do some decide they don’t want to go to hell and others not?), while the next man will reject Him because they say “a loving God wouldn’t create a hell”…. (Why do some decide to reject a God who has a hell and others don’t?)
(So far, except for the somewhat wordy Presbyterian, you all have not gotten past what I did or did not do. You have yet to address why I did whatever it was. Every response, in one way or another, is what I did. But you never get to the point of telling me why I did it.
So far you have said:
I accepted Jesus Christ because I felt sorry for my sins.
I felt sorry for my sins because I could see that I should live holy
I could see that I should live holy because I could see that my life as it is isn’t getting me anywhere
I could see that my life wasn’t going anywhere, because …
But the trouble is, all of these are things I did or I recognized. If he saved me because of something I did or I saw, then my salvation is a result of something I did or I saw. It’s a result of something I did right in and of myself. And we know that that cannot be. )
Then you would say that the Israelites who looked at the serpent lifted up in the wilderness were “intrinsically good”, and the ones who did not look at it were not “instrinsically good”? Do you suspect that they received “glory” and pats on the back for looking at the serpent and resultantly being saved, because their salvation was a result of what they did or saw?
The gift of salvation through God’s grace has been presented to man. Even though it was God’s grace and not any man’s works that brought forth the gift, it is still mans obligation to accept or reject the gift that was only given because of God’s grace. Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Gal 3:22 - But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. Again, it was through God’s grace that the gift was offered, but it is the individual’s responsiblity to take the offer by faith (those who believe). Believing is an action word.
(MN: See? I was going to leave this alone. But between GaryV and his hilarious rewrite, JLP, and just a “feeling” I’m going to post another “Puppies” article for you to attac– err, critique. I should have it up and running in about a week. Stand by. )
The bible says that God gives grace to the humble but he resist the proud. So maybe Roscoe was not pride and realize when the gospel was presented to him that he was in need of savior and he humbled himself. But Bubba maybe thought that he did not need savior for whatever reason and believe that he was okay and I am good person, treat people right, and believed that he had everthing he needed in life and never came to realization he needed savior which caused him to reject Christ although the gospel was presented to him. If man does not realize the state that he is in as a result of sin he can never truly accept Christ without first realizing that he is lost. Bubba maybe never accepted the state that he was in and Roscoe did which caused him to accept Christ and Bubba to reject Christ. Duet 30:19 says that I have place life and death before you, blessing and cursing, choose life so that you and your seed my live.
(So then Roscoe got saved because he was more perceptive than Bubba or perhaps because he had more humility? That would mean that Roscoe got saved beecause there was something intrinsically good about Roscoe. And that would say God saved him because of something good in Roscoe. Does that match what Scripture says? Titus 3:5, Jeremiah 17:9 for starters.)
Melvin,
I’m not Presbyterian and I didn’t give a reason based in Roscoe or Bubba. I specifically said God gave Roscoe ‘eyes to see, and ears to hear.’ He didn’t give them to Bubba. I was trying to give a simple, paradigmatic answer without writing a book. In answer to the questions you asked to my response, I would say Paul said it well in Ephesians: God saves some by changing them, and leaves others to their own devices, ‘to the praise of the glory of His grace.
(MN: Chuck, I didn’t disagree with you. I just asked the follow-on question to make sure God didn’t open Roscoe’s eyes because of something Roscoe did. )
Perhaps the answer is the key that is left out of most religious practices. The Holy Spirit.
Bubba could have assented mentally to the Gospel, whereas; Roscoe was moved to repentence not by his own doing, but by the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit.
Toni
Minister Steven F.
I need more information before I can approve your comment. An original source if best. Anything less and I will have to seriously consider not posting it. Also, are you sure you want to post it here or under the postings on New Light and the Turnpike Pimps?
Ah, I figured as much Melvin. I just don’t want to lose my status as a baptist. No offense to all my Presby friends, but I can’t part with regenerate church membership and the autonomy of the local church.
No problem. I understand completely.
“There are two young men. I present the Gospel to both of them at the same time. And I must say, I do a sterling job of it. I explain the Gospel clearly. They understand it completely. It makes sense to both of them.”
Clarification needed: what do they understand? What makes sense to both of them?
I hope these questions don’t count as my two nonsense comments already, or apparently I’m already done.
I suppose I should clarify what I meant: What specific statements (”the Gospel” wasn’t quite clear enough, sorry) do they understand completely? That they are sinners, and that God loved them and sent His Son to die for them?
To Tony, Chuck, Matthew, Mike, Melvin, etc., etc., etc.:
A LITTLE DEAD, A LITTLE PREGNANT
The answer just might come through the first of God’s “major” prophets, Isaiah 46:10:
“Remember this, and be assured; recall it to mind, you transgressors. Remember the former things long past, for I am God, and there is no one like Me, DECLARING THE END FROM THE BEGINNING and from ancient times things which have not been done, saying ‘My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure’; calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of MY purpose from a far country. Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, surely I will do it.”
Is it just possible that 2 Thessalonians 2:13 falls under this Word?
“But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren, beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you FROM THE BEGINNING for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit AND FAITH IN THE TRUTH (John 17:17). Is it possible that the brethren had to have HEARD or READ something BEFORE their faith could be confirmed?). “For by faith you are saved, and that not of yourselves, lest any man should boast…” This takes us right back to Isaiah 46:10…
In a nutshell, Romans 15:4 - For WHATEVER was written in earlier times was written for our INSTRUCTION, that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.