I’m starting to feel a bit like Cassandra. But that’s okay. If nothing else, I get practice wording this message until I get it right.
Take a look at the e-poster from Greater Grace Temple below. Click on it to get an enlarged image.
Who do you see? There’s Noel “The Weasel” Jones, Juanita Bynum, and Bishop Paul Morton. You might, at this point, ask: “So?”
This e-poster is significant because Noel Jones is Oneness - that is, he denies the Trinity and adheres to a Jesus only teaching. Bishop Morton, on the other hand is ostensibly Baptist and adheres to a Trinitarian doctrine. Despite the desire to love one another, these two doctrinal views are not compatible. They are mutually exclusive. And each considers the other heretical. Unless of course they want to work together to fleece the poor sheep who trust them.
I can’t say for certain that Ms. Weeks is Oneness, but her husband is. It seems unlikely, given this, that she is Trinitarian in her view. Remember, she “ministers” with him all the time. Double-teaming the flock so to speak.
The nature of the Godhead (Trinitarian vs Oneness) is an essential divide in Christianity. It is not in the “let’s set this aside so we can get along” category. If a person rejects the Trinity, he rejects Christianity, even if he continues to call himself a Chrstian. If he rejects the Trinity, he rejects historic Christianity. Those who would profess CHristianity and a Trinitarian view of the Godhead should not fellowship with these in light of 2 John 10, 11. We are not to receive such a one. And we are not to give him a greeting.
While I certainly can’t judge a man’s heart, I have to figure one of two things: wither Morton is incredibly ignorant and doesn’t understand the importance of the Trinitarian doctrine (though he has a doctorate from Call Me Doctor University), or he is incredibly careless in his associations.
I find it difficult to believe that Morton doesn’t know that Jones is Oneness, or that Bishop Weeks is Oneness. I also have a difficult time believing that Morton doesn’t understand that the doctrine of the Trinity is one of the cornerstones to Christian doctrine. But if he doesn’t understand that, he certainly shouldn’t be a “bishop” and that anointing he claims to have in such profundity certainly isn’t helping him stumble into the truth. Instead, it seems to be pulling him further into compromise and outright error.
I doubt if Bynum and company are even saved. Generally, Oneness practitioners promote a works-based economy for salvation. And despite a person’s sincerity, if they come to God offering Him something in exchange for salvation, they are not in faith trusting in God’s grace and are trying, even in some small way, to earn their salvation. And of course, efforts to earn your salvation are doomed to failure.
And if Noel Jones is sincere in his Oneness position, why is he having anything to do with Morton? The only conclusion I can reasonably come to is that each of them finds the other useful. Noel Jones can draw the Oneness crowd. Ms. Bynum-Weeks can draw a predominately female crowd. And Paul Morton can certainly draw the Trinitarian/Baptist crowd. The winner in this entire ecumenical goat rope ? Ellis.
All told, he will be able to pull a huge number of people through the Greater Grace doors. Once they are there, Bishop Ellis has the opportunity to get them to come back. And since the crowd will have demonstrated they don’t place doctrine anywhere near the top in importance, he can say whatever he wants and they won’t pay the least bit of attention. They just enjoy the music, get their praise on, and throw money in the coffers. These are the kinds people pimps want in their churches. Then Mr. Ellis has more money to bring in more people who, in the last analysis, will have missed the truth of the Gospel and settled for playing at church.
And we won’t even mention the collections Greater Grace will take up during the three-day conference, while the people are all wound up.
By the way, did you notice the topics being covered by the conference? They’re training pastors in such things as:
- Increasing the church’s revenues
- Setting up and running a bookstore
- Establishing a communications and video ministry
- Establishing a call center for prayer
While none of these are automatically bad, isn’t it interesting that the conference doesn’t offer anything in the way of developing effective sermons, establishing an environment for effective discipling, or encouraging the congregation to live a holy and acceptable life (Romans 12:1,2)?
It’s not that I don’t understand this statement:
I doubt if Bynum and company are even saved
But who are we to say? I’m not particularly fond of Bynum myself, but I feel in no way inclined to “judge” her “saved-ness.” Now, it may seem from the outside that she is not, but how do we know her most intimate relationship with God? I, personally, would not even venture a guess simple based off of the “uniqueness” of individual’s relationship with the Lord. That’s just me…
And another question, if God found no “right” at all in the ministries of these so-called pimps and pimpettes, why have not their ministries crumbled? Any and all thoughts are most appreciated
Why are the moonies still thriving? Jehovah’s Witnesses? Muslims? Mormons? Scientology? Big numbers are no proof of God’s blessing? It seems that you also make the mistake of “supposing that gain is Godliness.” Big mistake.
It is not God who is raising these people up, it is the people themselves.
Admit it, you love it. You love the whole culture of belonging to the “right” church, being entertained, having your ears tickled. You like believing that if you give your money, you’re going to get a 100 fold return. You like what these people have to say, because the TRUTH just doesn’t sound as good..it’s a little hard to swallow. You aren’t the first to think that way.
Many have decided that taking up their cross, denying their flesh and following Jesus is just too hard. It is much easier to follow a false profit, easier in the natural sense, much harder when you think of the eternal consequences.  I’ve been accused of being abrasive and some may think this is as well.  Okay.
Annette,
In reading your comment, it seems that I am not the one making suppositions here…
First, I made no mention of “numbers” concerning the “moonies” as you call them. So since I was misunderstood, please let me rephrase using your statement: If people are raising themselves up and not God doing the raising, why are they still “prospering” (used very loosely)?
Second, I am not “supposing that gain is Godliness.” I asked a simple question, nothing more, nothing less. I think you are reading a little bit too much into my question (which is a common occurrence on the site).
Third, I will make this assumption though…I’m assuming that this comment was not directed at me personally as you do not know me nor what I believe:
I will take this as a general comment concerning your passion on the subject matter. But your passion at times gets lost in the delivery. That’s just my opinion…which I know doesn’t amount to a hill of beans. I don’t have a problem listening (reading) the thoughts of others, but I guess I thought I may have received a different “tone” in the response.
Your Question is intriquing, Why hasn’t their ministries crumbled? I’m not sure I understand what you are getting at. It seems annette was addressing the fact that just because something is prospering means it has God’s blessing. Then you say that she is misunderstanding you.
What do you mean?
I said that she was misunderstanding me because in response she mentioned the numbers of the church or a financial aspect, two things that I did not mention (Please reread the first paragraph of her response).
I didn’t think the question was that “involved” as it seems to be interpreted as such. Do you have an answer?
I guess then, the question is: what do you mean by “crumbled?” I think most readers assumed you meant went broke and lost members. Is that what you meant? And if it is, then her response, I believe, is relevant.
How about this:
Why are these pimps/pimpettes still in existance at all? There are examples in the Bible of people who went against God, who were struck down for doing so. What makes it possible for these pimps to even exist?
And as a side question, do you think any one at all is healed or delivered in the “services” of these so-called pimps?
ITs almost like the question, why do bad thing happen to good people? or better yet, why do good things happen to bad people?
I defer to the fact that God is soveriegn and his thoughts are higher than ours. Where mortals sight is limited, God is all knowing and sees all.
So, I would suggest that it all fits perfectly into God’s ultimate plan. However, just like God could snap his finger and make this place the garden of eden, He could crumble all of the false teachers. God chooses not to, but still wants you and I to avoid them. God could make everyone obey him, but he chooses not to, but he still wants us to evangelize. Likewise, he could rid the earth of all pimps and pimpettes, but he chooses not to. However, he still expects us to warn against them.
I think it has something to do with freewill, grace, faith, and all that stuff…
Now that wasn’t to difficult, was it?
Thank you for your response…
Excellent Comments!
Annette,
Your comments are excellent.
Quote from Annete: “And another question, if God found no “right” at all in the ministries of these so-called pimps and pimpettes, why have not their ministries crumbled?” Is a criminal less guilty because he has yet to be brought to justice? No. In due season….
(MN: Ladies and gentlemen, just so you don’t think I make this stuff up, here is the youth pastor from Greater Grace [Mixed With Works] Temple, Michael Nimmons. Looks like we’re hitting the semi-big times here people! )
I would like to respond to Mr. Melvin Jones whose posted comments regarding Greater Grace Temple and the Ecumenical Goat prompted me to write. Firstly, I would like to address your obvious Trinitarian beliefs and how they are inconsistent with anything in the Word of God. I am a Apostolic Pentecostal believer, and I subscribe to the “Oneness” doctrine of which you vehemently disagree with. However, every scripture in the Bible where Trinitarians use to draw reference to support their beliefs have been interpreted wrong. One of the more popular scriptures Trinitarians use to separate the “Godhead” is Matthew 28:19. Where Jesus tell his disciples upon his acesenion that ye are to go into the all the world, and preach the gospel….”baptizing in the name of the Father, Son & the Holyghost.” What is missed in this scripture is the most pivotal word in this sentence, which give credence to the “Oneness” doctrine. And, that is “the name” The name of the Father, the name of the Son, & the name of the Holyghost is “Jesus.” There is no other way to interpret this scripture. And, if you still question, how one God can be the embodiment of all three of these manisfestions-note the word “manisfestion” and not deities, look up I Timothy 3:16, where Paul let’s Timothy know, “16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”
Another thing you are confused about is the “Oneness” doctrines perspective on the “godhead” we do recognize the Three manisfestation of the “One” God. God-The Father, God-the Son & God the Holy-Spirt. However, these three are not separate but they are in fact one in the same person, whose name is Jesus. A better way to appreciate the godhead is to look at each as Titles. And, while each title is significant in and of itself, the name of the deity who holds the titles is where the true power lies. Just as I am a “Father”, a Son, and a Husband to my wife, these are three titles which I hold, these titles do not separate me into three different people, but I am still one person who responds to one name and my name is Michael. So, if in a crowded room you wanted to get my attention, you wouldn’t yell out “Father” or “Husband” because every man who is a Father and a Husband would respond. But, if you really wanted to get my attention you would call me by name.
I hope I have shed some light on the Trinitarian viewpoint and the “Oneness” doctrine. As far as the Pastor’s & Church Leader’s Conferences are concerned, if co-laborers in the vineyard cannot fellowship together and break bread together dispite our differences regarding the gospel message, then what are in the ministry for. God never gave himself to one person, one ministry, or one particular doctrine. (MN: Taking what you say out to a reasonable conclusion, I have to assume you have no problem “ministering” with Jehovah’s Witnesses since it’s just a silly old doctrinal difference we’re dealing with - right? ) And, there are problems that exist with every ministry out there, because first and foremost we all are human. No one is perfect, although we should be striving toward perfection. In the meantime, what better way to hone on our imperfections than to come together and discuss them collectively and try to come to a uniform conclusion. (MN: How do you compromise between Oneness and Trinitarianism? Say there are really one and a half persons? ) That’s what these conferences are all about. And, furthermore if you have attended the conference the year that flier was created you would have learned that Prophetess Juanita Bynum was not able to come, and more workshops and seminars were conducted than those, which you seem to have lifted off a one-dimensional flier. I think your opinion would hold a little bit more weight if you attended the conference. At least then we all would know for sure that you’re completely off-base.
Feel free to comment on anything I’ve written or e-mail at yp@cwcyouth.org.
(MN: First set of questions: If there is only one person there, who gave the Son? Who was the Son with? Who has the Son loved? How can Jesus talk about “My Father” if there is no other person? )
Youth Pastor Michael Nimmons
Greater Grace Temple
I don’t know for sure but this is what I believe to be true.
Eph. 5:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Satan is the ruler of this world, and his main goal is to get people all messed up about God to the point where they don’t believe in Him or are worshipping in a manner that is not at all pleasing to God.
So I think it is very reasonable to assume that a lot of these ministries are still around and are prospering simply do to the fact that Satan is in Charge. And if what they are doing in these ministies is pleasing to Him, and to the flesh and to the world…why wouldn’t they be successful.
It’s obvious that God’s Forbareance is great and He hasn’t brought judgment upon them yet…but when that time comes I think a lot of people are going to be suprised.
Just my .02
PL
Psalms 37 tells us that they are prospering in their own way.
Melvin, I find it very interesting that you did not look further into the topics that is offerred at that conference in Detroit, i.e. missionary ministry, cancer support ministry, substance abuse ministry, children’s and youth ministry, outreach ministry, prison ministry, etc. however you chose to highlight (slant - a peculiar or personal point of view, attitude, or opinion) the 4 bullet points to support “your view”. Although there are times I agree with you and what you are doing I think this is an example of how the readers of this site must investigate what’s being “said” and I know you support that this is just an FYI for the viewers of this site “we must study the word of God for ourselves without question the bible is our guide to what is acceptable and unacceptable it’s our roadmap to heaven, read it, receive it and live it”.
“Increase your church revenue”
“Set up and sucessfully run a bookstore”
These are the very first “bullet points” on the presented flyer. What’s the purpose of increasing the Church’s revenue? Why do they need a bookstore? I’m asking these questions with the hope that you will provide me with a suitable explanation. You pointed out that they have a prison ministry, outreach ministry…
How/Why is it they these pastors are the only ones prospering? I would like to hear at least one bonafide testimony from a member of one of these churches declaring that the methods/teachings/principles/steps being taught by these people has helped them miraculously gain monetary wealth. I say monetary because that’s generally all they preach about.
I don’t think my request is too far out there. I think it’s pretty reasonable considering Acts 4:42-47.
“They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teachings and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. ALL the believers were together and had EVERYTHING in common. Selling their possessions and goods, they GAVE to anyone as he had need. Everyday they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.”
And I find it very interesting that you overlook the fact that I provided the full e-flyer for you to examine (I will generally even provide the site. In this case it’s http://www.greatergrace.org/leadershome.htm). Otherwise how would you ever know the other items are there? The other things are nice-to-do’s but they are not the reason the church organization is there. The church organization exists to edify the saints, to build them up so they can go out and live effective, Godly lives. They (the saints) can then go out and do the nice things. Being able to say “My church does such-and-such” is not an example of the edification of the individual members.
In other words, the fact that they are teaching church leaders how to start up a drug rehabilitation program or a low-income housing program (as an example of what other church organizations are doing), in no way mitigates the fact that they are training you in ways of separating the sheep from their money or “earning” money by working with the world.
Remember - it’s not my job to prove that the pimps do good things. They do. As do the Mormons, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, and a host of other Christian Wannabees. But there is no amount of good they can do to offset the heresies they preach and the violence the do against the Body.
It is my job to point out the heresy and coniving, period. Would you expect the prosecution in a rape case to bring up the fact that the accused was a Scoutmaster, or has a PhD, or gives regularly to Christian Children’s Fund? I hope not. I am not trying to prove that these people never do anything good, even if accidentally. I am trying to demonstrate that they do great damage to the Body.
I fully expect the readers to study the Word and anything else they can get their hands on. But most of the time that will only demonstrate that the pimps do nice things, not that they aren’t pimps.
Well let’s see…just like you stated this website is not to get people “saved” (I find that strange but this is your site) I glad that Jesus did not just deal with pimps but care enough to sacrifice for me and you.
You stated; “The other things are nice-to-do’s but they are not the reason the church organization is there.”
I believe that conference is there to assist other ministries on how too enhance there ministry in areas that a Pastor or Leader may not be aware of, i.e.”earning” money by working with the world”. ex. writing letters to various companies to obtain outreach dollars etc…The power in souls being saved through an illustrated sermons…These are just a few topics that bring about the awareness of what I believe that conferences is intented to do…
There’s many people I’m sure that view this site that disagree with the doctrine that you stand for but that’s another issue that only God will have to reveal to you…
Why would you find it strange that the site does not have salvation as it’s primary purpose? A church doesn’t have salvation as it’s primary purpose. Rather the church is there to edify the saints, the folks already saved. But as you said, I do pay my vastly over-priced webmaster to maintain the site.
You are certainly free to believe what you want. I am not here to make you believe one way or the other. But I thiink you will be hard pressed to justify, from Scripture, much or what you seem to be suggesting a church organization should do and how they should accomplish it. Remember, believing something doesn’t make it true.
Did Paul write letters to the Tacitus Olive Oil Company or Publius’ Gladiator Services to get money? No. I believe he depended on God working in the hearts of the saints to supply his needs for the Gospel. That, and he worked a “nine-to-five” to support himself. He didn’t ask the unsaved (the World) to give him money.
And what are “outreach dollars” anyway? Why does it take outreach dollars to reach the unsaved? Can’t you tell people about Him on your job? Can’t you and a couple of your friends acquire tracts and go door to door, passing them out and talking to people about Jesus Christ? Or can’t you keep tracts with you and give them to people you meet on the subway or bus? Why would you have to go to the unsaved to get money to present the gospel to the unsaved?
Can’t you, as a disciple of Christ, volunteer to work in a rehab clinic, establishing relationships with the addicts, and taking the opportunity to present Christ to them; and disciple them? Why the dependence on the church leadership to set this up for you? You have Christ in you and you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you. Or have I missed something here?
Just out of curiosity, what part of the doctrine I have expressed do you disagree with? Oh, I forgot. You probably aren’t going to tell me because you’re going to wait for God to reveal it to me. I haven’t heard that particular do-nothing excuse in quite a while. But that’s your perogative.
MJ,
I feel that several of the readers must not have had contact with very many oneness folks(remember william!!). Â I live in southern Indiana, across the river from Louisville KY. There are two world wide headquarters of Oneness/holiness churches in this area.
I beleive that they do not understand the gravity of the situation; that there are severe twisting of scripture that in the very least, create a confused, broken church.Â
Not only do those poor folks have a very poor (non-existant) understanding of the Trinity, (an essential of the faith) but they also have to play full-court basketball in sweats!!!! They are not allowed to wear very much, and I have seen it with my own eyes, out door basketball in 90 degress in sweats!!!
But seriously, when I was younger, I made a comment to a wise old preacher that I felt those people were honest and would probably go to heaven because of their sincerity. He said “that could be…but they surely don’t think you are.”
rev_ak…..
Wow rev it’s interesting that you would point out…
Not only do those poor folks have a very poor (non-existant) understanding of the Trinity, (an essential of the faith) but they also have to play full-court basketball in sweats!!!! They are not allowed to wear very much, and I have seen it with my own eyes, out door basketball in 90 degress in sweats!!!
If’s that’s what they thought it would take to get them to heaven (holy living) I’m all for it…I guess I can remember being in a church that believes in the trinity (it was a baptist church, I’m sure not all not all baptist church’s allow such living) that as soon as church was out the deacon was outside smoking and then stop at the store and purchased a six pack of beer.
If I had a choice give me the sweats in 90 degrees and the holiness that goes with it but that’s just me.
JH,
I guess I didn’t read the satire disclaimer…
It seems to me the whole issue of denying the Trinity went right over your head. Some qiuick questions:
My point in pointing out the fact that folks think they have to do so much more is because their faith is heavily reliant on works. (Even though I got what my friend Tweet would call “abrasive”) I poked a little fun at their dress code, to show that they go through an awful lot to get to heaven.
I have “deprogrammed” many confused and broken folks. Not only does Melvin point out some of the flaws of non-trinitarianism below, but I’d like to point out that “God is NOT the author of confusion.” - and these are about the most confused bunch out there. If you had hundreds of them in your area, and debated this issue over and over for ten years, you would understand how I feel.
JH, you don’t have to choose between the Trinity and Holy living. The answer is here:
The Word of God says all of our righteousness is like filthy rags to the Lord, so is all the works based faith of those poor peopel is in vain…so next time you go ‘ballin, feel free to wear the gym shorts!!
Rev…
I started to reply differently but through the spirit I will take the high road, by brother. (I guess that’s the works that you’re talking about huh ï?Š).
The doctrine is very important to me and yes I do attend church.
You reference
Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
and also ” The Word of God says all of our righteousness is like filthy rags to the Lord, so is all the works based faith of those poor people is in vain…”
It sounds like you’re saying since our rags are fifthy and we are save by grace that we can have a “cigar and a bottle scotch” (I read where someone else wrote that, inside joke) and call it a day….
My ballin days are over but I will start wearing some shorts when I go to play a round of golf.
In my conclusion
- seek God with all your heart
- serve God (do not just be a hearer but also a doer)
and when you miss something because you will, God will lead you too it but by all means grab it because there is soo much more to God than just Eph. 2:8.
I pray that you are not on the outside looking in …
Well of course there is so much more to God than Eph 2:8 - 10. We could start with Romans 12:1-2, which talks about offering ourselves as a living sacrifice. ORr we could look at a host of other verses that spak of living a life dedicated to God.
But one of the big differences between me and the usual Pentecostal down the street is he has been convinced that it is holy living that keeps him saved. I know that it is because I am saved that I should live holy.
Surely you aren’t going to make the same accusation people made against Paul in Romasns? I mean, come on, no one said I should go out an sin my head off. But wearing a pair of shorts to play basket ball isn’t going to send me to hell and, if I have a wrong view of God (Oneness vs Triune) wearing sweats in 90 degree weather, wearing long dresses (the women), spending all day in church, speaking in supposed toungues, passing out tracts and witnessing on the subway won’t make me acceptable to God.
Receiving Jesus Christ as my savior makes me acceptable to God. And as it says in Ephesians, he saved me for those works, not because of them.
God is sooo much more than a cosmic book keeper, keeping track of what I have done right and what I have done wrong and then deciding if I get in or not. I spent six years on inside that particular hell. I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy.
Again, the point rev_ak was making is that we are saved by grace, not by works. The works are a result of our salvation (as James argues over and over again), our salvation is not a result of our works (lest any man should boast).
I guess my point is just like all baptist do’nt party, smoke, drink and then count the money on Sundays or lead worship service not all Pentecostals believe that works is what makes you save. It’s because of salvation that I am saved and not any work that I could possibly perform.
Nothing can take away/add to the redemptive work Jesus did on the cross!!!! When He said “it is finished”, it was finished!!!
(thank God) I can do nothing more on my own to increase my chances of heaven than believe on His name!! He also said ” if you love me, you will keep My commandmennts.” I find it interesting that you would insinuate that I would drink “scotch” , since as a teenager I was a severe alcoholic. When I was saved, God delivered me out of that lifestyle. I have not had a drink in 14 years…I do not drink,smoke, play the lottery, and watch TV that is inappropriate. (as if I need to account to you) You shouldn’t be so quick to judge and say that I am someone who practices sin and that’s why I am coming down on the holiness/pentecostal/”oneness” folks. I am coming down on them for three reasons:
1) The doctrine of denying the Trinity is FALSE !!!
2) Basing salvation on works creates miserable people who are never quite sure of their “security.”
3) As folks leave those kind of churches, they tend to become very angry at God, as their understanding of His grace is destroyed.
By the way, I am an arminian. ( I am hearing all the sighs out there) I believe Jesus Christ died for us all, (not just the “elect”) but I also believe that salvation could not possibly be in a state of “flux” –if I play ball in shorts, I am not saved (untill after hitting the last “J”) I go home and repent. Rediculous!
P.S. when I was in the Army, a guy invited us to his church off post. My wife wore pants, and we were ushed to the altar as they tried to cast the “demons” out. A long night….
P.S.S MJ,
don’t want to make this an “OSAS” discussion, but I feel the readers, and JW, need to know where I am coming from. I am not someone who takes my faith casually.
For JW — I don’t believe I said all Oneness people view salvation as works based. Only that the vast majority of them do.
For Rev_ak:
That’s okay about being Arminian. The church I attend is Arminian. But they’re still good folks.
By the way, how are the wife and baby?
I will resist the urge to say more becuase as you said, this could quickly become another back and forth of OSAS.
MJ,
Wife and baby are well…Baby Mia is gaining weight and is now on the road to a safe and happy development. I will be back to full Pulpit -Pimps strength in another couple of weeks. By the way, the night I was to go to my Ordination Hearing, was the night my wife went in to the hospital. So, I am trying to schedule some speaking engagements until that issue gets resolved later this year.
JW,
Sometimes my comments are vague, in order not to offend. (even though I do anyway.) The specific organizations that I was referring to in my post are:
If you don’t belong to,or have dealt with anyone in one of those groups, or groups like them,then it would be fairly easy to take what I said out of context. For those of you who have dealt with it, then you know what I speak is true. (Those two churches are “wolrd headquartered” about ten mile apart here in IN.)
Melivn,
You don’t attend an Arminian Church.
If anything they teach both points of view, right?
You haven’t been paying attention in class lately…
LOL
PL
We can say it is not Arminian only if we can say that God is mostly sovereign.
Even a little Arminianism (like the argument that God can call, but unless I decide in and of myself to accept (no influence from God other than a sense of conviction) I’m out, but once we’re in we can’t decide to leave) is Arminian. A person can’t be a little pregnant, a little dead, a little saved, or a little Arminian. You either are or you aren’t. (Well, you could be a little Arminian if your parents are from Arminia and you are still a child. Then you would be a little Arminian)
I consider the difference not one worth dividing over. However, I will continue to recognize that the difference is there and to present the “God is Totally Sovereign” view whenever I get the opportunity.
Now that you have broached the topic, this might be a good opportunity to present the TULIP discussion. What do the rest of you say? Anyone interested? If nothing else, I will cobble something together and post it as a PDF off to the side.
OK, Melvin…What’s TULIP?!!
And Rev, it’s good to hear that you and the family are doing well and getting settled in together. I know it gets hard to manage at times, but the sleeplessness and tiredness doesn’t last always…I know from experience!
MJ,
I wouldn’t mind doing a discussion, but ONLY for the sake of discussion. The Southern Baptist Seminary is in Louisville and I have spent more time than I wanted to debating TULIP. I would only like to present what I feel is a balance view in the sense that I am not a person who thinks that we lose salvation , then gain it back, etc. I think that we are neither in a constant state of flux, nor are we so “predestined” that there is realy no need to even preach…I guess I would have to say on that issue I am a (GASP) “moderate.”
Melvin:
Right on mark about TULIP. Can’t have it both ways. Either your are dead, or pregnant or saved. Your salvation is the soverign will of God. Suprisingly enough, I do believe in predestination. I also believe it is none of our business who God has predestined, and it is still our responsibility to preach the gospel (men of course
and witness to a lost world– with more intensity in these last days. Being in a fundamental, independent Baptist (completely Arminian) church, I was thought of as a heretic– sorta like the Harold Camping of Family Radio 
Sometimes you have to wear the target.
Dawn–
T.U.L.I.P
Total Depravity/ Total Inability
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement/ Particular or Definite Atonement
Irresitable Grace
Perserverance of the Saints
Ohh those blessed doctrines of grace. How majestic is the Triune God in the workings of redemption. Rev your Arminian? Hmm, your still okay in my book. LOL just playing.
Oh no!
Both John Calvin and Martin Luther’s doctrine are FALSE theology. They grossly misinterpreted God’s word. Their believers lack wisdom from God.
There’s a host of false doctrines that spin off from their false theology, such as “Eternal Security”. This doctrine is popular, but it’s NOT correct.
Those who teach such doctrine weren’t called to teach by GOD, and they don’t know how to rightly divide His word. That’s why they don’t have a correct understanding of God’s word.
No; We don’t need any theological debates. End of subject.
(MN: Maybe we could use a theological debate. Rather than stating something as though your statement ends discussion, read the essay under “Various Essays” on the right side of this page.  Just click here (”Once Saved , Sometimes Saved?“) and the browser will take your straight there. Â
Here’s what I want you to do. From Scripture (I provide a profundity of it for the paper) show where the eternal security position is incorrect. Demonstrate from Scripture why what I say is not correct.Â
Saying “It’s not right and that settles it,” is childish and not worthy of one who says they honor and respect the Word of God.   Saying that is a very easy thing to do, and it keeps you from having to think too much. But it isn’t a viable position for a Christian to take if he or she really wants to impact the world for Christ. You have an opportunity to think the whole thing through, using Scripture as your guide. Don’t blow it by being a blowhard.
Yeah “truth”, go and study these things and then come back. Maybe you’ll have a brighter understanding of the Doctrines of Scripture. Salvation is of the Lord, not of us.
Melvin,
That link takes us to your essay which misrepresents the word of God.
No; I’m not going to waste time in a scriptural debate. I know how you FALSE teachers operate. I know all of your typical and misguided arguments.
You misinterpret the scriptures you THINK justifies your beliefs. You’re too spiritually blind to recognize the truth within the numerous scriptures that PROVE you’re absolutely W R O N G. Thus, I’m not going to waste my time.
Furthermore, you and most of your readers have been taught Baptist doctrine. Baptist ministers don’t interpret the bible correctly. Their understanding of salvation and doctrine on justification is WRONG.
Since your mind has been poisoned with error, you’re not in a position to receive the truth. Your foundation and blindness hinders you from seeing the TRUTH. (We saw that during last years debate.)
(MN: This is what I was talking about. You are simply saying it’s wrong but offering no specifics on where it is wrong. This is easy to do but it doesn’t do you any good. If I am wrong, it also doesn’t do me any good. You attribute the differences to me being blind. How do you know that the difference isn’t a result of you being blind. I have presented, from the Bible, why I believe what I believe. I would expect at least the same from you. If you won’t, then you really don’t have much to say. If you won’t then that speaks volumes about you and your view of God.Â
And understand, I am not trying to engage you in foolish arguments or vain discussions. I am truly trying to understand where you are coming from and am asking you to justify it from Scripture. So far, the only thing you have done is tell me I’m deceived, wrong, twisted, blinded, etc. Tell me how, tell me where, tell me something.
Give me something to work with here. Where have I twisted or distorted the Scriptures? Do you have so little faith in Scripture that you actually doubt that the Word of God is living and active and sharper than a two-edged sword? Are you so unsure of God’s ability to use His word to show me the light that you would self-righteously abandon me to the error of my way? Surely you have enough love (or just pity) for us poor fallen cretans to share at least some of the wisdom God has decided to share with you.
For future reference, please understand that neither Luther nor Calvin were Baptists. The deonomination hadn’t been formed yet. They were protestants (as opposed to Catholics). )
I know Luther nor Calvin were Baptist. Luther was part of the “reformation” movement. Baptist doctrine is derived from their man-made theology.
To show you where you’re wrong, I’d have to address your foundational beliefs. That’s time consuming. Presently, I don’t have the spare time for that.
In the interim, pray and ask God to remove the scales from your eyes. So you can see the truth concerning His word. End of subject.
(MN: I’ll give you all the space you need. Perhaps you can just tell me what foundational beliefs you would have to address. Just don’t tell me that one of the foundational beliefs you have to address is the belief that one can’t lose their salvation. You don’t have to address them. Just let me know what they are and I’ll be happy.)
The word “Sincere” is ironic for the name of one who doesn’t know the truth concerning God’s word. From God’s perspective, there’s no need for ME to study anything for a “brighter understanding” (as it pertains to this issue).
The initiation of your salvation is “of the Lord” through faith. Afterwards, you must live a life that demonstrates your faith.
Martin Luther couldn’t understand and take heed to James Chapter 2. So he omitted it when forming his FALSE theology. Here’s the reading:
14) What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith SAVE him?
15) If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16) and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17) Thus also FAITH by itself, if it does not have works, is DEAD.
18) But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your FAITH without your works, and I will show you my FAITH by my works. 19) You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe–and tremble! 20) But do you want to know, O foolish man, that FAITH without works is DEAD?
21) Was not Abraham our father JUSTIFIED by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22) Do you see that FAITH was working together WITH his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23) And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God.
24) You see then that a man is justified by works, and NOT by faith only. 25) Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also JUSTIFIED by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so FAITH without works is DEAD also.
“Sola Fide” clearly contradicts verse 24 of James 2. What FALSE theologians and FALSE teachers constantly fail to understand is this: It’s wrong to develop a theology or doctrine that contradicts scripture. Just one scripture contradiction makes it wrong.
I agree that one contradiction makes it wrong. But the trouble is you are taking a single verse, building a meaning into it and then deciding that my interpretation of all the others are contradicting your view, thus all the others must be wrong.
Is it not possible that James is saying what I said at the front of the paper? That if I am not living a life consistent with Christian doctrine then it is likely I was not saved to begin with? This is very different than losing my salvation.
However, (here’s my Deanna Troi impersonation) I sense that you have been drilled in a virulently Arminian approach and discussion with you is not going to do very much good. I doubt if you did, or will read the paper. As such, it seems likely you will simply bring up all the items addressed.
If anyone else out there wishes to continue this discussion with truth, you are certainly free to do so. I will give him two maybe three posts to come up with a good defense of his position. After that, we’re moving on.
Any takers?
That’s weird, I would think the word “truth” would be more ironic. Especially as it pertains to this issue.
The old pitting James against Paul trick hey? And you clearly have no concept of what Luther or any of the Reformers had in mind by “Sola Fide”. The “alone” doesn’t mean that the faith exists alone without any subsequent fruit of obedience. Luther insisted that saving faith is a living faith. “Dead” faith does not mean a faith that has perished. Rather, the image suggests a faith that never had any true life in it. A dead faith cannot make one alive, cannot “save your souls”(James 1:21), and is therefore false and useless. Scripture teaches the the justification of true saving faith, not this Arminian faith you teach.
Also, “truth”, you say the initiation of my salvation is of the Lord, and the rest is up to me to somehow keep myself in the faith, and to depend on my works to do that. Show me in scripture where it teaches that. So I just thank God for the first part and tell Him, don’t worry, I’ll take it from here. Is this not heretical. Why do I say that, because it contradicts what Paul wrote to the Phillipians, -
“Being confident of this very thing, that he that hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ”(1:6)
So while you’re out worrying that you might lose your salvation, because obviously you’re more powerful than God Almighty to take yourself out of His hands(John 10:26-29), I’ll be thanking God my Keeper for preserving me unto his heavenly kingdom(2 tim 4:18).
Sorry Mel, I know that this isn’t what this site is for. I normally don’t do this, but…keep the party goin’.
Tweet,
You asked: why are they still prospering? I guess I assumed you were talking about money and the number of people in the ministries. If not, my apologies.
But how can they not prosper? If the average church goer (depending on location) who makes 40K a year, tithes 10% of that and regularly sows “seeds”, it could easily add up to 5 or 6 thousand dollars or more depending on how “generous” the person is. Now multiply that number by 2-3 thousand and it will definitely add up. Do the math yourself. Don’t take my word for it.
Just in my example alone, a church could easily raise 12 million dollars or more. And you’re right, I don’t know you so I shouldn’t have directed my response to you.
I am very passionate about this and it distresses me when I see anyone try and defend what is so evidently opposed to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I did it also in the past and I don’t make excuses for it. I fully admit that I was coveteous and desirous of the things of the world. I agree fully with my accuser. But I’m so grateful that I’m no longer under that delusion and I’ll proclaim the Truth for now and forever more.
Sort of the Christian equivalent of no one being harder on a smoker/drinker/etc than someone who escaped from it.
I can understand that.
Melvin,
It’s interesting you make comments on the essentialness of the Trinity. I’ve been having this same conversation with one person (actually a few people, but one recurring person) for a few months now. Over the past 3-4 days, I’ve crystalized a lot of of my thought on the issue and sharpened up my arguments a bit. I’m on spring break right now, so be on the lookout for ‘Otherwise, he cannot be saved: The Essentialness of the Trinity’ in my next blogpost on my site between now (4/10 9:13pm) and 2morrow (4/11…before 3pm). I usually don’t beg for traffic, but point some of your readers here who may be having trouble realizing the real problems with not holding to the Trinity and still claiming to be Christian.
God bless you and keep fighting.
No problem with directing folks to you.
I’ve put a link in on the right side of the blog. It’s alphabetical. I forgot to do it earlier.
By the way folks, Blackcalvinist is a presenter at the “No Other Gods” (I can’t believe I’m calling it this) CONFERENCE being held in Pennsylvania this Summer. If you’re interested in attending go here. But be warned: It’s not going to change your life forever. You aren’t going to get your breakthrough. And no one will say “Turn to your neighbor and say…”  And you’ll be charged $30.00 so they can make you think and struggle with hard ideas. The Right Reverend Frederick K. C. Price will not be presenting.
Yes, they’re Presbyterians, sometimes known as the Frozen Chosen. But I know from experience reformed Presbyterians seek to live holy lives, pleasing to God just like other serious Christians.
Thanks
You are a saint and a scholar. 
Not everyone presenting is presby and reformed.
Dr. Wright is odd man out - reformed, baptistic and egalitarian (how’s that for a combo ? Where in the world does HE go to church ? ). Marcia, JP and a few other folks aren’t reformed, either.
Fun will still be had by all
And if you register early, you’ll get MP3’s of all sessions (even the workshops you don’t attend). I will have handouts at both of my sessions.
I’m lookin’ forward to the fellowship. Middletown is a nice, quiet neighborhood and Calvary OPC is a nice sized church for this conference (they can probably hold about 500 with the balcony seats included).
On a side note, I wonder how many of your readers are going to also be attending Together for the Gospel ?
testing.
(Melvin’s Note:Â It doesn’t come through ’til I okay it.)
What’s up with the name calling??? ” Noel “The Weasel” Jones” Other than Bishop Noel Jones being “Oneness,” what else do you really have against him? I have listen to quite a few of Bishop Noel Jones’ messages and he doesn’t deny who he is, he doesn’t try to disguise who he is, he doesn’t try to persuade you or convince you against your belief in the trinity and he isn’t seducive in trying to bait you towards oneness. In his messages, he goes from reading the scripture, giving historically background and brings the scripture to issues we face today. Although he does take up an offering after he preaches, he makes it clear to the people that God doesn’t want your bill money and you don’t give your bill money. I haven’t seen any $1000 or $100 lines??? How is he pimping the people???? Where are you coming from here? What’s the real beef here?
The real beef is his willingness to appear with those who are not Oneness. If he truly believes in a Oneness nature of God, and he truly believes the Pentecostal Assemblies of the World position on Oneness vs Trinity then why is he hanging around the Big Dogs who preach a Trinitarian view?
I can somwhat admire the fact that he doesn’t hide the fact that he is Oneness. This is much better than T Dexter Jakes. However, if he really believed the stuff he admits to, he shouldn’t associate with those who worship the three headed god.
That association with Trinitarians, combined with the heavy use of psycho-babble in his presentations (I’ve heard several), seems to indicate he doesn’t really stand on God anyway.
And while he may not have a $1000 line, a $500 line and a $100 line, he is still of the “Bless Me and God Will Bless You” club.
Remember, not only is he Oneness, he has no problem performing with men who not only profess Trinitarianism, but who preach that Jesus suffered in hell for our sins. If he is Oneness, then he does not believe this particular heresy. If he is dedicated to Jesus, then why would he appear with people who preach what even he should consider to be a heresy?
My conclusion? He is in it for the money. Thus he is a pimp. He simply uses a different skill set to pimp the folks.
All Trinitarians don’t have the same believe/theology on everything in the Word. I’m quite sure all Oneness are the same way. There are Christians that I have been around, gone to their churches, broke bread with them and because of my belief in the Almighty God and the way I live my life caused them to reject certain things that they used to believe.
I do believe in the Godhead just so you know and if the light of God that’s dwells in me isn’t able to shine amongst those who are saved, Oneness and Jehovah Witnesses, etc. and cause one to search their own lives and make a change then I guess you are right.  Oneness should only be with Oneness and Trinitarians should only be with Trinitarians.
You’ve made the following statement “And while he (Bishop Noel Jones) may not have a $1000 line, a $500 line and a $100 line, he is still of the “Bless Me and God Will Bless You” club.” Although I haven’t heard every message Bishop Noel Jones has preached, I have never heard him in a message or stand before a congregation declaring if you bless me (the man of God), God will bless you. NEVER! Unlike Creflo Dollar and some others, I’ve never heard this man say this or implied this. Is it possible for you to provide me an example where he has said it or implied it?
Thank you!
We’re not talking about all the other things we may disagree on. We are specifically talking about the Triune nature of the Godhead.
All Oneness folks reject the Trinity. This is the defining aspect of a Oneness adherent. The vast majority of them are Arminian, Pentecostal, and very legalistic (required to earn their salvation by displays of what they define as holiness).
All Trinitarians view the Godhead as Triune. It is the defining aspect of a Trinitarian. The range of differences within this group is huge, ranging from pew-hopping Charismaniacs to hard shell Baptists, to super conservative, always thoughtful Presbyterians. And most agree that you likely are not a Christian if you reject the Triune nature of God.
Most of the differences within the Triune camp are secondary (communion every week or once a month, sabbatarian or not, real wine at communion or that limp-wristed grape juice, elders or deacons). Not all, just most. And we can work with those differences. But the nature of the Godhead (Triune versus Unity) does not have a work around. It is at the core of historic Christianity.
Across the board, Pentecostals view the Trinitarian as a worshipper of three gods, or worshippers of a three headed monster. Yet Mr. Jones is willing to forget about that in order to work with the Eddie Longs, Fred Prices, and Cashflow Dollars, and Clarence “We Got Nothing But A Tent and Porta-Potties” McClendons of the world. Why would he be willing to compromise on something as critical to their belief system as that? I can only think of two reasons: Fame and fortune.
As wrong as the Oneness view is to hold, it’s even worse that he would hold it and then rub elbows with folks his people think are going to bust hell wide open.
If Noel Jones doesn’t do the “Bless the Man of God and Give to Get” thing (you may in fact be correct about that), I would have trouble with the fact that he hangs around men and women (Paul Crouch, Paula White, Juanita Bynum, Creflo Dollar, the Right Reverend Frederick K. C. Price, Eddie Long, John Jenkins, and a host of others) who do. That behavior negates the fact that he doesn’t do that schtick and, in my opinion (see I have them too) gives a lie to any effort he may make to appear as a steadfast and Godly Christian. He’s not willing to stand for the essentials of his faith, wrong though they may be.
Really, I wonder just how many professed Trinitarian and Oneness Christians will end up in hell.
Only those who have exercised faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God. But the difficulty with the Onenesss folks is they don’t worship Jesus Chrst Son of God, since there is no Trinity to contain a Son. At best He is the Father in Creation, the Son in salvation, and the Holy Spirit in sanctification. This Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible. Add to that the fact that their salvation is GENERALLY based on works (remember, keeping your salvation means you have to not do something, and that is works) and works don’t cut it. Consequently they never exercised saving faith in the grace of God (Eph 2:8-10, and others)
How many people who FALSELY profess Christianity (even the Trinity) will miss it? Quite a few.
SINCE NOBODY WON’T TELL U…I WILL…U (Melvin Jones)ARE an 85er…which is dumb, deaf, and blind and still believes in the mystery in the sky…speaking down on 10% those who taught u what u understand about the bible, re-lig-on,GOD…they have been sworn to keep their mouth close about the true and living GOD walking the planet amongst you…at the cost of better living…somebody has to play this role so these pulpit pimps as u call them…have done this….they tell their congregation everything except that…becuz individuals have to accept and see for them selves…well me… i’m part of the 5%ers …WE WILL REVEAL GOD’S FACE … those same pastors or pimps as u call them…will denounce…i have no problem w/ them becuz i know their role …but ur faith is the same as their’s yet u spit it the face of ur own and leaders …where is your faith in GOD…Aren’t these the leaders ur GOD choose for ur religon…thru the people… U R A FOOL!!!!
THESE PASTORS ARE ROUNDING UP MONEY, PEOPLE, RESOURCES, TO SURVIVE THE NEXT PHASE OF LIFE IN THIS WORLD AND SOCIETY…..SO WHEN GOD SHOWS BACK UP…HIS PEOPLE AND KINGDOM WILL BRING PEACE BACK TO THE LIVES OF THE CHOSEN…THESE LEADERS ARE STRIVING TO BRING PEACE AMONGST US ALONG W/ BETTER LIVING….I CAN SEE IF THEY WERE JUST MAKING FOOLS OUT THEIR PEOPLE BUT THEY ARE REALLY TEACHING THINGS FOR THEM TO INSTILL IN THEIR LIVES….FOR THE GOOD OF EVERYONE……….. SHUT DOWN THIS SITE … U R A COMPLETE FOOL….I AM GOD …NOT A CHRISTIAN…JESUS WAS MY BROTHER ..FATHER…HE’S JUST LIKE ME…
Oh earthly shatiff, how majestic your ways. god Shatiff, please bless me with your earthly wisdom. Work wonderous miracles for me god Shatiff. Who’s trickin you homey? You were probably having a hard time with whitey and some enlightened brutha man came to you and told you that you were a god(sounds like Word of Faith), and that you were supposed to rule over the white man right? Let me ask you this, what about our faith is a lie? It doesn’t help a lawyer to make lofty accusations without evidence. So let’s just say for right now, that you heard your elder god spout off a bunch of mess, and you decided to come and drop some ad hominems on Melvin. Tsk, tsk, and you call yourself a god. You can be one(lil’ g), but you will die like a mere man.
To the Body of the Lord Jesus Christ, a.k.a., the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit: HEAR YE! HEAR YE! HEAR YE! This is true manifestation of the occurrence at the Tower of Babel, and concerning this person’s walk in life: “Even when the fool walks along the road his sense is lacking, and he demonstrates to everyone that he is a fool.” Ecclesiastes 10:3