Okay Melvin

Im looking at this closely. We have all sinned and come short of the glory of God. For this reason Christ gave his life for us. Like I said before I am new to this site and trying to be careful. For I have been hurt before in this walk with Christ. So some of the things said here I will not eagerly agree with.

But I have questions. If a man or woman of God that is high in authority says something off the mark, are you scrutinizing them and looking for their mistakes? Like I said before I dont put Joel Olsteen in the same arena as “cashflow” Creflo or Bishop Eddie Long. He doesnt seem to me the one who preaches prosperity. Also what about John Hagee or Dr. David Jerimiah. What about Tony Evans or Jonanthan Carter. They all have large churches but seem humble and speak the truth. Let me know that you’re not just attacking everyone and looking at things with a fine microscope.

Melvin’s Note: Anonymous, I can surely understand where you are. In fact, if I expected you to just take everything I said as the Gospel truth justbecause I said it, I would be no different than the very pimps I seek to expose. Nope, not just looking with a fine microscope. I will, as time goes on present more on Osteen. He is not only very weak in standing up for Christ (as in doesn’t when the chips are down and camera is on), but is, basically, a Word Faith fellow. His dad, formerly a Baptist minister - quite orthodox - went over to the signs and womders side about twenty years ago. While he wasn’t quite as extreme as the rest of the WoF, he did fall into the camp and basically helped them to prosper.

By the way, I’ve listen to Osteen quite a bit. I rarely heare Jesus preached. And rarely, except to promote a positive attitude, does he actually go to Scripture.

Yeah I can agree with that on Pastor Olsteen. Thank you for responding.

As a fellow Houstonian with Osteen, I highly recommend staying away from his ministry. Basically, he is no different than Oprah or Dr. Phil only dressed up in Christianeze. I work with several people who attend Lakewood and have a couple of friends that attend. Man, all they seem to talk about is positive this and positive that, prospering and going higher, going to the next level.

Most people I know who finally wise up and flee the local pimp houses, usually end up at Olsteen’s church.

One lady on the job brags about how she’s been a member for so long and just love everything about the place. She says she can’t remember the last time Joel talked about any negative things such as sin and hell (I promise these are her exact words).

My wife’s college roomate just left the house about 10 minutes ago. She finally left the WOF church we all attended after my wife and I left and challenged her to test the teaching and practices in light of Scripture. It took her some time to digest the fact that her “Bishop” was teaching false doctrine. Unfortunately, she jumped out of the boiling pot into the frying pan.

Since Joel isn’t as outspoken about riches as some of the other pimps mentioned on this site and he doesn’t flaunt his riches, he comes off very harmless, but his teachings are dangerous. Listen to any of his sermons and see how many times Christ is mentioned and if He is mentioned, is He ever mentioned as the sinless Savior, who lived a perfect life, died and rose from the grave for sinners or your personal genie?

For a good overview of Joel go here:

http://www.discernment.org/LeavenLakewood.htm

Melvin,

I would like to share this article:

Do God and money mix?
CNBC examines the growing business of evangelical Christianity

By Tyler Mathisen
CNBC

Updated: 10:26 a.m. ET April 1, 2005

Evangelicalism is one of the fastest-growing religious movements in the United States, and now this ardent form of Christianity is starting to flex its economic muscles.

In Corporate America, the religion’s growing status is seen in all kinds of businesses. From health clubs to Hollywood movies, and from publishing companies to pizza parlors, firms around the United States are now saying they have Christian values at their core.

“Jesus is big business in America,” explains Laura Nash, Ph.D., a senior research fellow at Harvard Business School.
In fact, Jesus has always been big business in America says Nash. And while the message of the Bible has been constant over the years, today’s Christian messengers are very different from those of days gone by.

From Houston’s smiling pastor Joel Osteen to the fiery sermons of Dallas’ Bishop T.D. Jakes, today’s superstar preachers are spreading the word of God to mega-congregations of tens of thousands of people — an economic force in their own right.

And these new Christian leaders are acting like CEOs of mini-conglomerates that turn out best-selling books, CDs, DVDs and even major motion pictures.

“I think that Jesus is the product,” says author and televangelist T.D. Jakes, who is currently bishop at The Potters House, a primarily African-American Pentecostal church in Dallas. “When the product is excellent, it doesn’t require a big sales pitch.”

Not content with preaching to the choir, Christian authors and broadcasters are going after the secular market too. Bill Hearn, for example, the CEO of EMI Christian Music Group, says his company’s vision is to impact popular culture from a biblical world view.

“People say, ‘I’ve never been to church, but you know I’m watching your broadcast, I’m reading your book,’” Osteen said. “So I think faith is definitely growing all across America.”

But while Christian-based business has morphed into a multi-billion dollar industry, and an economic success story, what about the non-believers? Does the increasing closeness of Christianity and commerce have the potential to make some consumers uncomfortable?

Harvard’s Laura Nash says that Americans have always viewed freedom of religion as the freedom to express religious beliefs up to a point. That is, as long as it doesn’t impinge on another American’s freedom to express their own religious freedom.

And there’s another consideration: Is the Christian movement just what a scandal-scarred corporate America needs? Os Hillman of consultancy Marketplace Leaders, who is a nationally known leader on faith in the workplace, is optimistic.

“God does not frown on people with money,” Hillman said. “The issue here is the love of money versus money itself.”

Editor’s note: “CNBC on Assignment: God & Money” airs on CNBC at 8:00 p.m. and 11:00 p.m. ET on Thursday, March 31.

© 2005 MSNBC Interactive

Note: Pay special attention to T.D. Jakes statement:

“I think that Jesus is the product,” says author and televangelist T.D. Jakes, who is currently bishop at The Potters House, a primarily African-American Pentecostal church in Dallas. “When the product is excellent, it doesn’t require a big sales pitch.”

1 Peter 2:3 - And through COVETOUSNESS shall they with FEIGNED WORDS make MERCHANDISE of you; whose judgement now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

In the love of Jesus Christ

Deb

Only question I have is, Pimp or Wimp?

I actually saw tht interview when it aired and I guess it didn’t strike as it does when I read the transcript, because his demeanor and delivery was the same as he is when he is speaking from his pulpit.

I have always been amazed at how people ( 30,000 of them) could sit and listen to him week after week, because his messages tend to be light and fluffy, without much substance. Its a feel good message that presents very little conviction. (Melvin’s Note: Which is why 30,000 people can listen to him week after week)

I must admit, his messages were so light and fluffy that I didn’t see them as damaging, Kinda like Rice cakes! But I guess a consistant diet of just rice cakes could kill you, eventually. However, this Larry King interview presents Joel as a luke warm Christian…and you know what the Lord said about luke warm Chritians.

Let’s call him a wimpish pimp.

Melvin

Osteen fumbled away a perfect opportunity to keep himself off of websites like this and make a clear stand on National TV with an admitted “atheistic Jew” like Larry King. Wonder how he would’ve fared w/Oprah, or even worse, Phil Donahue. Taking a stand for Christ in public would’ve cost him members and money. People flock to the Smiling Profit precisely because he doesn’t get into “controversies” like the cross.
P.S. Going along with the wimpish pimp, he looks a little impish, does he not?

MR JONES KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK THAT GOD HAS PUT IN YOU EXPOSING THESE PIMPS IS OUR DUTY . APOSTLE PAUL TAUGUT TO EXPOSE THIS RELIGIOUS SYSTEM, AS WELL AS CHRIST EXPOSED IT TO. IF WE HAD MORE MEN SUCH AS YOU AND MYSELF AND A GOOD FRIEND OF MINE WE COULD CATCH A LOT O FISH WANTING TO SHARE TRUTH.

If only Osteen would be so bold as the muslim suicide bomber that Barbara Walters interviewed this morning!! He stood by his convictions and told Ms. Walters if she didn’t beleive in Muhammed, she would go to hell. ( I guess having “your best life now” here in the present is better than 72 virgins in the hereafter)

“Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.” 1 John 2:23

John 3:16 makes it clear that whomever does NOT believe in Jesus will “perish”. If you perish, you’ll go to hell. I can’t believe a Christian, not to mention, a minister would respond that way. Please tell me I’m dreaming!

Olsteen obviously failed to stand on God’s word. As soon as Larry asked the first question, he should have said, “Well, the bible says…………Therefore, the Jews and Muslims can not go to heaven. The scripture is clear. It’s impossible for someone who rejects Christ to go to heaven. Jesus Christ is the only way………..”.

“For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory, and in His Father’s, and of the holy angels.” Luke 9:26

Wow…while I admire some of his “practical” advice for day to day living, his doctrines I’ve always had questions about. One of his beliefs is that “we control our own destiny.” I’ve heard him say that numerous times, but I wonder, is that true? I thought “my” destiny was linked to “God’s” destiny, and if we read the Bible, we know what “his” destiny is. I’m not a destiny unto myself, you know? Just wondering. I found another web article on this–strong stuff.

http://www.av1611.org/osteen.html

Melvin’s Note: Check on the link. It’s pretty good. It includes Osteen’s “apology.”

I spent 26 years in law enforcement and spent part of that time teaching the young peace officer and one of the things I would tell them reference sociopathic serial murderers; “beware, the devil sometimes has a pretty face”,re., Ted Bundy.

I thank God everyday for the continued growth and illumination of my faith through His Holy Book. You and John Coleman have been a big part of that.

Yo Melvin,
My mother and grandmother are die hard followers of Osteen and I’ve always told them that this guy is not sound in his doctrine. After saying this me mother and grandmother will fight me to the death (my grandmother remembers Joel’s father from his early days when he was sound, and has always had a high respect for him). You’re going to find thid funny because I learned about this Larry King interview on the program of an old pulpit pimp (Melvin, I’m not sure if he’s pimping anymore so please let me know) Jimmy Swaggert. So I wanted to know if my grandmother and mother knew of the interview, and what I did was read the interview and ommitted Osteen’s name. Well after reading this my grandmother got angry, and called him a heretic, and a spineless fool who should hang up his clerical collar or be defrocked. My mother was also not happy with hearing what I was reading, and it even caused her to leave the room.

I do not know when I will break the bad news to them, but it’s interesting to see their reaction (it’s a relief to know they are for sound doctrine after listening to this guy). When I think of Osteen I want to cry because it is a sign that people do not want the message of the cross anymore, they are making church without Jesus. The other day I listened to the webcast of the Black Hebrew Israelites, and heard their gospel choir. It was really sad because I saw all the familiar elements of the Black church, but I heard no reference to Christ. My fear is that if we keep going down this road and following these pimps, we will end up having church like that webcast. We will have all the elements we are familiar with, but we will have no mention of Christ whatsoever.

Please pray for me because I have to preach soon, and I’m going to put forth the message of the cross. I know that as I go on with this message of Christ alone later I will have shots taken at me at and I will be ridiculed, but I gladly bite this bullet and wear the target on my back with pride. If Martin Luther had to stand in the face of the church of his day, and have a bad reception simply because he was pointing them to back to Christ, then I can (and must) do it too. Oh pulpit pimps…… HERE I STAND, I can do no other.

Yo,

Scotty, you my boy. Stand for that Truth my brother. My mother kicked me out the house one night @ 2 o’clock in the morning because I told her that she was using scripture out of context (claiming that it’s God’s will for us all to prosper). When I questioned where she got that from in the Scripture she got furious and told me to get out her house. I had to drive from Orlando back to Tampa…lol… I learned a valuable lesson and that Family is no different from arch enemies when it come to the Gospel.

I have a question for Melvin and you Scott. Is it true that Joel Osteen took the Cross out of his Church? Please respond when you can.

Grace and Peace
seal

Hey Seal,
I would first of all like to say thanks for the encouragement and also tell you that I know what you mean about your mother kicking you out. My mother attended a church that was Word Faith, and when I disagreed with her and told her that I am a Calvinist she kicked me out (thank God I had a dorm room and a friend’s apartment to go to for winter break). After a while my mother talked to my grandmother who told her it was wrong, and that even though I disagreed with her I would never push her away. My mother and I have reconciled, and she is currently looking for a new church, but she is still listening to Paula wannabe Black White, Take yo Dough Jakes, Creflo Snatch A. Doller, and crazy Juanita.

But to answer your question about Osteen, it is true that he has removed the symbol of the cross from his church. My fear is that if he keeps up his foolishness, he will completely remove the message of the cross from the church, and then all you will have is an overloaded charismaniac monstrocity on it’s way to busting hell wide open (but hey, at least it will bust it wide open in a “positive” way).

Peace be with you,
Scotty

(Melvin’s Note: Alando, if you are still visiting, is there any way you can check on the cross thing? )

In response to Melvins note: (Melvin’s Note: Alando, if you are still visiting, is there any way you can check on the cross thing? )

Yo Melvin,

It’s true, I have had two close friends of mine who are ex WOF pastors gone Assembly of God, and Methodist look into it. They said that this practise is becoming more and more common because of the rising seeker sensitive agenda in churches. Church has become more about the Christian than the Christ, and I thank God everyday that good men such as you are speaking out boldly. You are an inspiration to my colleauges and I as we study in seminary, and do ministry here in Minnesota.

May you be blessed,
Scotty

is the cross a false image? Doesnt the bible say put up no likeness of Christ? Wouldnt a cross fall under this category

No the Bible doesn’t say put up no likeness of Christ. However, one of the commandements is to make no graven image to represent God. But it’s talking about worshiping that graven image. Also, Jesus was an actual human person, so He had a face like you and I, so it’s kind of hard to imagine Jesus without seeing a face. But back to the point of not worshiping an image. Who worships the cross? It is a symbol, but I know of no Christian that worships the image. So no, it would not fall under that category.

I understand completely what Joel was saying. In all of Gods wonderful world of people, it is ludicrous, vain and arrogant to believe that if you dont think one way you will not see the hearafter. Yes Jesus said through him you will see the father. I believe he ment his way. He completely commited his will to Gods. He never said you had to be a Christian. As a matter of fact I dont believe he ever confessed to being a “Christian” himself. (if he did, please enlighten me where to find it in the scripture.) As long as you Love God, and obey his word in my humble opinion you will see his glorious hearafter. And only God can be the judge of who really knows and Loves him.

Seal: I just found this Website so I realize that this you question may have already been answered (hopefully) But I am still compelled to put my 2cents in anyway. In re: to your comment above you mother is correct. God does want us to prosper. It is all though out the Bible. I think you may be a little confused at what prospering means. Prospering is Freedom,Peace,Good Health,Happiness and Love. You cant possibly disagree with that. And the reason your Mom through you out is because you were problably being disrespectful. I myself being a mother, would not ask my son to leave my home for disagreeing with me, but disrespect is something that most moms will not and should not tolerate.

i am super dissappointed…i tho’t this was one of the oly real men of God left in america, but apparently i was wrong…God deliver all these people and have mercy on them, are they not scared of facing the wrath of God?!!! i wonder

Haknas………..you haven’t yet given us an exegesis of the verses graciously provided to you by truthseeker.

If our understanding is flawed, and you are certain that these verses do not mean precisely what they say about the Person of Christ, I hope you will clarify from your understanding.

We’ll be happy to take it back to the original Greek as well, so translation won’t be an issue.

Are you up for it??

Leaving the Pigsty

There are certain words that aren’t popular with today’s popular preachers. One of them is the word “repentance.” We are told that people don’t understand its meaning. If that’s the case, we should then educate them as to what it means, rather than dumb down the message. Even the secular news doesn’t do that. When a criminal is unrepentant, the reporter will say “The man was unrepentant.” He doesn’t bother to explain the word. If you want to know what he’s talking about, you have to come up to his standard of syntactic linguistic ambience. But we want people to have an understanding of what we are saying, so we should use spiritual words and then take a moment to explain their meaning.

There are some preachers who use the word “repentance,” but then explain that it means “a change of mind.” While it is biblically correct to say that the word used in the New Testament for “repent” is metanoeo (which means to change one’s mind), it can be misleading to say that that is all that is required when it comes to salvation. This is why: The Bible says, “Seek the Lord while He may be found. Call upon Him while He is near. Let the wicked forsake his way and the unrighteous man his thoughts: Let him return to the Lord, and He will have mercy; and to our God For He will abundantly pardon” (Isaiah 55:6-7). Isaiah saw fit to tell sinners to forsake their “way” and their “thoughts.” That is what happens with biblical repentance. The change of mind is clearly evidenced in Proverbs 28:13: “He that covers his sins shall not prosper, but whoso confesses and forsakes them shall have mercy” (Italics added). To say that it is only a change of mind is to say that the prodigal son simply needs to change his mind about his state and his relationship to his father. The reality is that the genuineness of his change of mind is seen by his getting up and leaving the pigsty.

While it is correct to say that a sinner should change his mind about God, to fail to tell him that he should forsake the pigsty of his sins is like telling a child to change his mind about a stick of lit dynamite that he’s holding. If I care about the child, I’m going to tell him that he should change his mind in relationship to the dynamite, and then cast it away from him. Our obligation to the world, is to (with the help of God) give them understanding as to the way to be saved. He cannot change his mind about God without casting sin and the world behind him. He cannot continue to serve sin.

In Acts 14:15-16 Paul didn’t simply tell idolaters to change their mind about their sin. He told them to turn from it to God: “And saying, Sirs, why do you these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach to you that you should turn from these vanities to the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein: Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways” (Italics added).

Someone told me that I was in error when I told sinners that “repentance” meant to turn from sin. He said that that was called “Lordship salvation.” I suspect that he thought that I was saying we are saved by repentance. Obviously we are not saved because we repent. We are saved by grace through faith (see Ephesians 2:8-9), but we access that grace through repentance towards God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. Then the fruit of true repentance is evidenced by obedience to God — “Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him . . . ” (Hebrews 5:8-9, italics added).

Other than being to soft on core issues of faith i’m not sure what the critasizm of this man is. More importantly Melvin who do you like?

(MN: Wouldn’t you say being soft is a mighty big issue? How do you proclaim the gospel by being soft. That’s kind of like “Well, other than not being able to stand the sight of blood, what do you have against So and So as a doctor?” However, he too has issues that revolve around WoF and Vincent Peale positive thinking.

It’s not a matter of who I like or dislike. These people are to be avoided like the plague. )

Well i’m a bit perplexed when it come’s to Olsteen. Billy Graham didn’t scream gays are going to hell and was powder puff on a lot of issues but did that negate his contribution to the body and work of Christ? I’m going to need more than a few bad interviews to throw the guy away.

(MN: Graham as also never asked straight up about homosexuality either. How many bad interviews do you need, by the way? )

Well i’ll say Olsteen isn’t equipping anyone to do battle with the AntiChrist if you believe in endtimes prophecy. I will say that his inspirational messages can do a lot for the downtrodden hence my belief he doesn’t need to be thrown out with the bath water. I also don’t get the link to WoF either i’m thinking he’s more of those positive thinkers that use the bible.

I have been praying and seeking the Lord about the body of Christ for awhile now and not understanding what I am seeing and whether or not what I see is of God or not…I do believe that we should agree in prayer that all false teachings be destroyed (in the name of Jesus) and exposed and that His people receive THROUGH Him and His Holy Spirit a revelation of His truth….if we diligently seek Him on own He will teach us….yes we have shepherds but they are not our lifeline to God His Spirit lives in every born again believer:

in John 14:25 - 27 Jesus says, 25 “These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

I do not believe it is of God for a shephered to promote gluttony and excess…I never hear this word preached in conjunction with the ‘prosperity gospel’:

Acts 4:32- 35: 32 Now the multitude of those who believed were of one heart and one soul; neither did anyone say that any of the things he possessed was his own, but they had all things in common. 33 And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all. 34 Nor was there anyone among them who lacked; for all who were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of the things that were sold, 35 and laid them at the apostles’ feet; and they distributed to each as anyone had need.

Psalm 37:4 says, Delight yourself in the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart.”

Once His Spirit lives is us our desires should be more and more like His and not the worlds and I think it is an abomination in the eyes of God that so many shepherds desire the things of the world and when their sheep defend them they say “we never say that about sports heros who live large’ but should the church’s standard be the unbelieving world?”

Pray for these people…pray the terror of God (Gen 35:5) on them that they lose their peace and find no rest until they repent and preach the truth and that the Gospel of Jesus Christ and on His gospel be preached upon the face of the earth. I feel sad for our Lord, but He’s gonna come back and open up a can of ‘you know what’ on anyone who perverts the truth and leads his sheep astray. AKA He’s gonna go WOE on their behinds…I don’t know who they are for sure but God knows…see Psalm 37

Psalm 37: 1-2…Do not fret because of evildoers,
Nor be envious of the workers of iniquity.
2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass,
And wither as the green herb.

God bless and Rock on Jesus…I love You so much!!!

I was just looking at a CNN trascript interview with Osteen, provided by Sid and I have got to say that it was baffling and a sight for sore eyes to read. On the transcript, a caller from Hillsboro, Wisconsin commented that someone told him that Lucifer will be the last one to go to heaven during the rapture because God has forgiven him and asked Osteen what did he have to say on that. His reply was he has never heard anything like that. My comment is nobody has ever heard of that one because it is not written in the scriptures. However what is written about Lucifer is Hell is prepared for Satan and his angels. Osteen’s responses to callers questions were very evasive. I believe as a man of God, you should know that for He would make it know to you. He gives a feel good sermon, for I saw him speak on TBN, but like many false prophets, he is selling Christ out.

You are the pimp and the whore. You are an evil person. I love Joel Osteen and Jesus also, not a fake like you.