The pimps and pimpettes out there see you as a market, not a ministry. The latest example? Pastor and “Co-pastor” Lyle and Deborah Dukes. They are having a New Years “celebration” this December and you are invited. It should be a great spiritual blessing. It will be inspiring. It will provide you with breakthrough preaching. And if you want to go to all of it, it will cost you $28.00.
Here’s the e-flyer for the event. Click on the image to see the full sized posting.
Here’s my beef with the whole thing. Why are we paying almost $30.00 to come hear some “Gospel” singers and watch them strut and sweat across the podium? If they are going to be such a blessing, shouldn’t they be free? The Gospel is free. If the singers have to be paid, shouldn’t the church organization pay for it? Why are we making a $28 fuss over “Greater Anointing (I assume that is the name of one of the groups), Israel, Tye Tribbet, Debbie Duke and New Breed.
If the purpose of the whole shindig is to glorify Jesus Christ, how come the only names I see on the e-flyer are the Duke’s and the Gospel Performers?
Again, they are cashing in on you, taking you for a ride.
uhm….whatever…….
None of the above persons are actually singing “gospel”. Technically, that word refers to the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
The last time I checked, Jesus commissioned the disciples to make disciples of men and build God’s kingdom. God didn’t ordain Christians for the purpose of entertaining or serving each other to the extent that is done in today’s churches (especially the large ones).
That’s one of the reasons why the power of God is not being manifested in today’s churches as it was manifested in the early church. See the book of Acts. Christians including ministers are more focused on their own agendas and traditions of men!!
Does your church charge for various events? Of course it does. Retreats, to hear God’s word preached, cost. Usually the money charged is to cover the cost of expenses. In some churches, the money charged is to cover the cost of the speaker. And speakers charge in order to cover their own expenses; ie: food, plane fare, etc. I think some of them charge or ask for too much. Traveling to share the gospel with others should be done for free; however, it is the church receiving that person that decides to pay them ( if the speaker has not requested a certain “honorarium”).
If the money being charged is done so as to make a profit, then that is a questionable tactic. However, how can a ministry function if no one gives it money? How do they keep the lights on? The tithes and offerings given to a church could fund the various events; but then what happens when those funds are depleated?
Melvin, tell me, how do I fund events that will bless those saved and unsaved without charging money or depleating my ministry’s account?
Great Question!! How to fund events without profiting? It is surprisingly easy! In fact, it is the law.
As a non-profit, the organization can host events, collect funds, organize events and pay expenses including employees. The tricky part is to spend all of the money every year or to roll it over into the next year. The other trick is to treat the pastor who may also be the founder of the organization, the gardener, the event coordinator and every person employed as an employee, not the owner of the organization.
The legal non-profit entity is not owned by anyone but it functions in its own best interest and the employee’s function in the best interest of the organization. The organization can have two events in a year or nine, but the full-time salary of the employees is the same…even the pastor’s. This way the funds are not depleted by the “owner” of the non-profit. Funds are replenished, and there is no reason to have anoter event unless the funds are already there.
The organization, led by the board of directors, makes decisions and chooses who will be invited to events and pays those musicians or speakers to attend. The profit from any event can be used to have more events or simply donated to another worthy non-profit. The problem is, that those who start these so-called non-profits, make themselves the owners of the entity and set up boards of directors that simply rubber stamp what the individual wants to do, and the board does not understand their fiduciary responsibility.
Therefore, that individual can pay themselves for every event 10 or 15 thousand, and let the organization pay the expenses. The more events they have, the more they make. Also, the organization, led by the individual “publishes” a book or books written by the individual and the individual gets the royalties, less expenses.
It is actually illegal, but someone in the organization would have to point it out, fight the board AND sue through the secular courts to get such practices stopped. Of course they run the risk of being called Satan, a hater, a blasphemer or worse. So, yes it CAN be done, but you are asking a lot.
There is a LOT of money to be made here. What mega-preacher would take a salary of 300 thousand when they can make 3 Million easy as long as no one is looking? I mean how could you expect a man of God to follow the laws of man?
1. The Church of Jesus Christ is a ” living organism”, not an organization.
Act 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands as saith the prophet.
Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth dewlleth not in temples made with hands.
2. Where is the temple of God today?
1 Corinthians 3:17 What? Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dewlleth in you?
1 Corinthians 6:19 What? Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
2 Corinthians 6:16 ……for ye are the temple of the living God. As God hath said, I will dwell in them and walk in them; and I will be their God and they shall be my people.
3. The body of Christ ” Church” are those of us who have been given by the inspiration of God to know infactically that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God.
1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.
4. What building of these 501C3 faith based government owned institutions which are a deception, masquerading as the true Church ever won a person to Christ? NONE
The Church of Jesus Christ is not a freak. It does not have 2 heads . Christ alone is the Head of His Chruch, not the IRS.
We can no longer afford to misuse our offerings for church buildings, parsonages, conference centers, multi-purpose buildings, air conditioning, padded pews, pipe organs, and the like, all of which will soon be forgotten, while God’s children go hungry, poor and ill equipped to minister the Gospel. Instead, like Abel, we should give our best gifts to the true Church , “the people”, because we love God and want to see God’s work accomplished on the earth.
In the love of Jesus Christ,
Deb
Melvin’s Note: Works for me.
Deb,
In 80 to 100 degree temperatures, are today’s churches not to have “air conditioning”? Are you actually attending a non air conditioned church? Do you expect our churches to hold worship services and classes inside a tent? Your scripture references don’t validate your opinion.
The Old Testament people built a temple in accordance to God’s will. It was made of jewels and high quality material. Before he died, Jesus taught regularly inside the temple. The New Testament does not remove the need for physical church buildings.
You said, “while God’s children go hungry, poor and ill equipped to minister the Gospel. “. I believe today’s churches, especially the large ones, should better assist their needy congregation members. In the book of Acts, offerings were taken to help the poor inside the church. People sold their own personal possessions. (Acts 2:45)
If you’re doing well and out of debt, why can’t you help your brother or sister in Christ? The bible tells us to bear each others burdens not condemn them. We want to praise God, but our lives demonstrate selfishness and self-centeredness. We own homes, but we’re not willing to share a room with someone (in our church) who needs a place to stay. Our sharing should not be limited to victims of a tragedy. (Hebrews 13:16)
Today’s large churches, like FBCG, only take a special offering to support victims of tragedy outside the church or our country. I believe churches should take care of their members FIRST. It’s not biblical to collect money to support persons outside your church IF you’re not adequately helping the members INSIDE your church.
Examples: They’ve allowed church members to sleep inside their cars. They can spend church money providing meals to the staff and other saints. Yet the bible says we’re to hold a “feast” for the poor! (Luke 14:13) The biblical church attended more to the needs of the poor instead of pampering themselves. (Romans 15:26, Galatians 2:10)
Yes; There’s a so called “benevolence fund” with a host of limitations. When the money is gone, the needy are told “we have no more funds available”. That’s when an offering should be taken. Apostle Paul sets the example in scripture. On a regular basis, Paul initiated collections for the saints. (1 Corinthians 16:1-2) He didn’t wait until a tragedy occurred.
We glorify God by living by His word not building large edifices and ignoring the needs of the poor.
Melvin, I didn’t mean for you to delete both of my comments just the first one. Where’s the second one I sent you?
1. Don’t confuse the building with the Church.
Luke 17:20 … The kingdom of God cometh “not” with observation:
Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or Lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
2. We the people of God are the Church, the living stones that are joined together in Him to form the spiritual structure.
In the book of ACTS:
Acts 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: “neither” said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had “all” things common.
Acts 4:34 NEITHER WAS THERE ANY AMONG THEM THAT LACKED: for as “MANY ” as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold.
Acts 4:35 And laid them down at the apostles feet: AND DISTRIBUTION WAS MADE UNTO “EVERY” MAN ACCORDING AS HE HAD NEED.
The apostles never used the collections of money on themselves to live lavish lifestyles. They didn’t use the money to build an establishment for the people to assemble together for worship services, nor did they use the money for the maintenance of an already established man made structure.
But the scripture simply declares:
Acts 4:35 .. And a distribution was made unto “every man” according as he had need.
3. What’s wrong with assembling together in a place where there is no air conditioner? And if you had to assemble together in a field? Oh I know, you don’t want to sweat out your Brooks Brother suit, and your Mary McFadden dress. And there is no landing strip for your Lear Jet, and no personalized parking for your Bentley, Rolls Royce, or your Limousine.
There are multitudes of people in these (501c3) establishments, having organized religious services daily, weekly ect…
But I tell you a truth, there are “only” a few that are in the Church, the true and living body of Christ.
Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Old Testament Temple:
Luke 21:5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
Luke 21:6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another that shall not be thrown down.
This temple was destroyed in 70 AD and “has not” been rebuilt.
New Testament Temple:
John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
John 2:21 But he spake of the “temple” of his body.
Where is the temple of God today?
1 Corinthians 3:17 What? Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1 Corinthians 6:19 What? Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
2 Corinthians 6:16 ……for ye are the temple of the living God. As God hath said, I will dwell in them and walk in them; and I will be their God and they shall be my people.
In the love Jesus Christ,
Deb
As far our fellowship, we assemble together in our homes, on street corners, in the parks, and where ever the Spirit of the Lord leads us. We are not confined to a building “a pile of bricks” which is incorrectly named the Church.
We make our offering unto our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ of our time, and of our finances by taking the resource’s that God has blessed us with to feed the hungry and the thirsty, to provide clothing for the naked, to visit the prisons, and provide shelter for those that are homeless.
We are in the streets of our city’s ministering the gospel of Jesus Christ.
We don’t take a 10% tithe which is not/never was commanded of the New Testament Church, nor take in an offering for Pastor and First Lady Jack Leg to keep them living in rich and famous lifestyles.
We the people of God, are a peculiar people. We are gathered together in his name at any place that God so chooses, that He be glorified.
In the love of Jesus Christ,
Deb
Deb,
Are you currently attending church in someone’s “house”? If so, for how long have you been doing that?
Additionally, are you saying: There’s no need to physically build any churches? If so, you’re stepping on a lot of toes including the pastors who probably taught you. You know they’re not ready for your message on tithing. (That’s the one thing I agree with so far.)
For the first three-hundred years of its existence, the Church of Jesus Christ met almost exclusively in private homes:
1 Corinthians 16:19 - The churches of Asia salute you. Aquilia and Pricilla salute you much in the Lord, with the “church that is in their house.”
Romans 16:5 - Likewise greet the “church that is in their house.” Salute my well beloved Epaenetus who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.
Colossians 4:15 - Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and “the church which is in his house.”
Philemon verse:2 - And to our beloved Apphia, and Archippus our fellowsoldier, and to “the church in thy house.”
Acts 20:20 - And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publicly, and from “house to house.”
2 John 10 - If there come any unto you and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into “your house,” neither bid him God speed.
The word “church” (ecclesia in Greek - called out ones) does not refer to any organization, no matter it’s name or legal status. The word Church is not meant to refer to any physical building, but refers to the worldwide believers in Christ.
When the apostle Paul describes the church as a building, he makes it clear that it is a living and growing building. Every Christian is a stone added to that building, a living stone, as Peter says in his letter in 1Peter 2:4-5.
The Apostate Church:
The majority of the buildings of today “church” are 501c3 government owned institutions. The pastors have been bought and paid for, ordained by the IRS, and “not” by Almighty God.
The apostle Paul warned us about them in 2 Timothy 3:1-9. They are the Prosperity/Word of Faith preachers that preach another Jesus, another spirit, and another gospel. They also bring with them a message of tolorance.
2 Corinthians 11:14 and Galatians 1:8-9.
BEWILDERED:
1. Are you currently attending church in someone’s “house”?
Deb’s Answer: As far our fellowship, we assemble together in our homes, on street corners, in the parks, and where ever the Spirit of the Lord leads us. We are not confined to a building “a pile of bricks” which is incorrectly named the Church.
Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
2. If so, for how long have you been doing that?
Deb’s Answer: I have been saved, in the body of Christ “Church” for 10 years.
3. Additionally, are you saying: There’s no need to physically build any churches?
Deb’s Answer: The word “church” is not meant to refer to any physical building, but refers to the worldwide body of believers in Christ.
4. If so, you’re stepping on a lot of toes including the pastors who probably taught you.
Deb’s Answer: As far as stepping on a lot of pastors toes, I don’t seek to please men. For if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. We ought to obey God rather than men. And, I am taught the gospel by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, and they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard and learned of the Father cometh unto me.
5. You know they’re not ready for your message on tithing. (That’s the one thing I agree with so far.)
Deb’s Answer: Tithing is an ordinance under the old law. If they are in disagreement, their disagreement is with the infallible, inerrant Word of God.
On the day of the Lord, it “will not” be those building made with mans hands being caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the Air, but it “will be the Chruch, the true and living body of belivers in Jesus Christ.”
In the love of Jesus Christ,
Deb
Deb,
You did not answer my first question. So let me try it again:
1. Are you currently attending church in someone’s “house”?
Please don’t give me another generic answer.
Also, do you have a pastor? What denomination are you affiliated with?
Deb,
You did not answer my first question. So let me try it again:
1. Are you currently attending church in someone’s “house”?
Deb’s reply: Please, let me try it again. As far our fellowship we assemble together in our homes, on street corners, in the parks, and where ever the Spirit of the Lord leads us. We are not confined to a building “a pile of bricks” which is incorrectly named the Church.
Which things also we speak not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth but, which the Holy Ghost teachetheh comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 1 Corinthians 2:13
2. Please don’t give me another generic answer.
Deb’s Answer: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him. Neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. Corinthians 2:14
2. Also, do you have a pastor?
Deb’s Answer: Yes. And I will give you pastors according to mine heart which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding. Jeremiah 3:15
3. What denomination are you affiliated with?
Deb’s Answer: For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren by them which are of the “house” of Chlo’-e that there are “contentions” among you. 1 Corinthians 1:11
Contention: Strife, struggle; a violent effort to obtain something, or to resist a person, claim or injury; contest, quarrel. Webster’s 1828 dictionary
Now this I say that everyone of you saith, I am of Paul, and I of Apollos, and I of Cephas, and I of Christ. 1 Corinthians 1:1
Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? Corinthians 1:13
Today “pseudo church” boasting: I am of Southern Baptist, I am of Methodist, I am of Lutheran, I am of Anglican Episcopalian, I am of Presbyterian, I am of Roman Catholic, and I am of Non-denominational.
There are no schisms “denominations” in the body of Christ!
And the multitude of them that BELIEVED were of one heart and of one soul: But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 1 Peter 2:9
I am a blood bought believer in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I believe that salvation is in no other name (Jesus). I believe that there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. I believe that there is one God who is eternally existent in three distinct persons, God: The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit and these “Three” are “One.” I believe that “after” the days of great tribulation, Jesus will return for His Church “a living organism,” the body of Christ. Amen!
I am not seeking the accolade of men, but I seek the honor that comes from Almighty God.
HALLELUJAH - Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord, come Lord Jesus!
My question to you is: Does Jesus Know you?
In the Love of Jesus Christ,
Deb
Left by Bewildered on October 19th, 2005
If I may, allow me to throw my two cents in. The group I worship with meets in a building - not someone’s home. However, we also have home studies.
We don’t consider ourselves a denomination - just Christians.
The building we meet in on Sundays is air conditioned.
Understand, there is nothing wrong with a building to meet in. The objection I would have is identifying with the building. Take a look at the buidling First Baptist Church of Glenarden is building. The price tag is somewhere around $50 million dollars. Other church organizations go exactly the same way.
The local church I worship with consists of about 100 saints. We don’t advocate tithing. You give what you believe you should when you believe you should. The result? The leadership can do only what God wants as He moves on the hearts of the people. We rent the facilities.
For about six months the elders asked if people would give so we could get a used van from a church in Philadelphia. If no one had given, we wouldn’t have gotten the van.
We also have some classrooms for Bible study and special classes.
But again, does the building define the church? No.
One group of Christians I worshipped with in the past held service in the YWCA in Bowie. Every Sunday, the men laid down a plastic covering, set up the folding chairs, and brought out the lectern. When we finally had an instrument, the piano player brought her electric piano in each week.
The walls of the room were covered in bulletins, posters, and other non-religious stuff. In one corner, there were sports balls. In another the step exercise equipment. But the focus was the pastor and his teachings for that Sunday.
Was it a church building? No. Did the Church meet there? Yes.
Any other questions?
Melvin
Melvin:
Do you believe 1 or 2 pastors can adequately minister to the needs of several hundred or several thousand individuals?
Personally, I don’t. There’s not enough accountibility in these large churches. It’s too easy for their personal issues and needs to go unrecognized. I would never refer a young babe to a large church! I believe they especially need more individual attention.
If you need prayer, you can’t quickly reach the pastor nor the other ministers. A church as large as FBCG should have a 24 hour prayer line or prayer ministry for the saints. Yet they cater to the pastor by giving him an intercessory prayer team.
In general, I am not in favor of large churches. More specifically, I tend to be against large churches operting the way places like First Baptist and those of its ilk operate.
I have seen large churches (several thousand) who have the “senior” pastor and several men under him. The head honcho sets the direction, the others shepherd the flock and keep their eye on the main pastor.
If I pastored a church, it would go something like this (a friend of mine made modifications to my original plan and I really like the changes):
1. A church is established in some store front or other building.
2. If the Lord wishes, the congregation grows to 150 to 300 worshippers (not “members”)
3. During that time, I have been training men to take my place if need be. They preach, they shepherd, they hold me accountable.
4. Once we hit a critical mass in size, I appoint one of the men as pastor, take a couple of the others with me and I leave, going to some other area of town or some place else and start another church.
5. Go back to #1.
6. The fellow whom I left can decide if he wants to folow my example. He will be encouraged to do so.
Another option is to train men to take my place. As the church grows and gets what I would judge to be too large, I send a couple of the men I have trained, along with maybe half the congregation (who have seen the trainees nearly as much as they have me, and don’t stick to me as if I’m God) to start another church someplace else - across town, down the road, or what ever.
Again, there is the tendency to avoid becoming a mega church and all the dangers that go with that.
But underlying all of this is the idea of training each saint and encouraging them to grow in Christ. They can pray for each other, for the pastors, etc.
Most of the current church goers come closer to being spiritual moochers and helpless children than soldiers for the Lord. Being strong in the Lord never crosses their minds. And an awful lot of pastors want to keep them exactly that wey.
Melvin
I’m not lead to agree with everything you would do because I’m not sure how biblical your plan is. In the bible, it was Apostles not pastors that traveled and started other churches.
Do we have a way of knowing how large the congregations of Rome and Corinth churches were? Those were 2 of Paul’s churches.
Pastors would lose money and the opportunity to live wealthy lifestyles if their church didn’t become “huge”. Paul said he learned how to live abase and abound. Yet today’s pastors strive to stay abound when they get there. The marjority of the folks supporting them are usually struggling…… The ones that are doing well financially are too selfish to help others.
Personally, I believe a lot more people in these huge churches should be equipped to have their OWN ministry and work independently. Something is wrong if you’ve been sitting in church for over 15 years serving someone else.
If you’re such a “dynamic disciple”, why are you still doing the same thing every year? After 10 years, you should be spiritually developed to do a lot more for the kingdom than going to church, biblestudy, singing in the choir, playing music, serving on the pastor’s aid committee, etc., etc.
If Christians were truly equipped and anointed, our communities would be full of churches. The school system would be calling on ministers to cast demons out of the bad kids. There would be a lot more churches or ministries inside of homes. Your church doesn’t have to be mid-size or big in order to make an impact. Where the spirit of the Lord is there is liberty.
On a daily basis, some of the tiny or smaller ministries are doing more to help the poor than the huge churches. They’re the ones cooking food and traveling to the parks to feed the hungray. The huge churches collect money and build for their own benefit (not to help meet the needs of the poor). Amen.
Melvin,
Yes, I do have a question.
If you pastored a church, why do you choose to establish it “outside of your home,” and in some store front or other building?
In Atlanta there are buildings “pseudo churches” one on every corner. Some of them are even across the street from each other, yet the drug dealers, intercity gangs, prostitution, crack addiction has absolute control of these same neighborhoods.
Two of my coworkers, Russell and Anthony were having a conversation. They were trying to whisper, but I still could hear them. Russell asked Anthony if he had scored with the female “little honey” that he’d seen him with Saturday night in the night club. Anthony said, “No man, she’s a Christian, she isn’t like that.” Russell said, “So what man, you find the biggest whores in the church.”
I then walked over to them and said, “don’t confuse those buildings with the Church, but what you will find in the body of Christ/Church is a new creature.” Therefore if “any” man be in Christ, he is a new creature. Old things have passed away behold “all” things have become brand new. There are many people professing to know Christ with their mouths but, their hearts are far from him. They are know by the fruits that they bare.
Both of them apologized to me and were saying, Ms. Deborah we didn’t know that you could hear us. I invited them to meet my brothers and sisters in Christ, and to fellowship with us. They told me that I am to straight, that they were not ready to make that kind of commitment, but that they do go to church.
Lord have mercy Jesus,
Deb
hello,
This is a very interesting discussion. I am a pastor at a church in Richmond, Virginia, but I grew up in Fort Washington, Md. I stumbled on this website by accident. I used to serve a mega church in Richmond. I must say that I agree with many of the points people have made on this post. For example, I used to advocate tithing to believers before I really studied the matter. Now I advocate cheerful giving. Nothing more nothng less. The funny thing was when we went to just giving cheerfully, with no pressure or gimmicks, our offerings were larger and we were able to do more for things for the kingdom that required money. Everything the body of Christ does doesn’t require money, but some things do. That was just an example. I do feel that many pastors are beginning to seek the kingdom as opposed tot he “trends” that are so aboundant to day. I really believe that we must pray for a real revival where saints began to walk and talk like Jesus.
I am not that great at articulating my thoughts, but I do want to throw in my two cents. I feel the major problem in any body of believers, large or small, is the struggle for individuals to really mature and stay hungry for the righteousness of God. As people mature in Christ they begin to have a better sensitivity to the Spirit of God and get a better sense of what is of God and what is not. I have seen saints in large churches fall to trends and religious witchcraft, and seen saints in small churches act like scribes and pharissees unable to see and hear the Spirit of God. that is just my opinion. I see sometimes an inbalance on both sides sometimes.
Another point.
I also think that many of these Pastors of theses mega churches are doing so many things and going to fast that they are not even paying attention to what is happening in the life of other preachers, that is why they have no idea about their personal failings. Most preachers invite other preachers based on popularity. I would suspect that most of the more popular pastors never really sit down with other pastors and talk about the Word. I have been in the room with many of the people that you have mentioned and these people never spoke about doctirine or controversial subjects. Those things never came up.
I think you all know more about these pastors than most pastors do.
Melvin’s Note: Very nice comment, pastor. I can’t say I disagree with anything you have said. Being a large church is not the problem. Being a small church is not the solution. Growing in Christ should be, but often isn’t, the priority.
Again, good comment.
Deb, my apologies for taking so long to answer. I wrote an answer earlier, but my dog ate my hard drive.
I don’t think the Bible insists we meet only in believer’s homes. When Lydia received Jesus Christ, Paul had been preaching on the banks of a river. Once Lydia became a Christian, she offered her home (shelter from the weather and the sight of those who would persecute them). When the kid fell from the window during one of Paul’s longer sermons, the place they were in is described as an “upper room.” There is no indication the facility was a part of a home, any more than the upper room Jesus’ last supper was in someone’s home. It would not be unreasonable to speculate that it might have been, but it would not be unreasonable to speculate that it wasn’t.
In China, Cuba, and other places hostile to the gospel The Church still meets in homes and other unmarked facilities. But again, this is to avoid needless persecution by the state and by the citizens of the country.
We, in the West, in general, have the freedom to meet in public and even advertise the fact that we are here.
My difficulty is not that we meet outside the homes of the saints. It is that we identify WAY too much with the building, a point I believe you have spent a significant amount of time objecting to as well.
Melvin
Melvin,
I don’t believe that the Word of God “insist” that the body of Christ meet exclusively in the home either, neither did I say that it did. I said that, we are gathered together in our homes, on street corners, and in the parks and where ever the Spirit of the Lord leads us.
God’s Word definitely does “not” advocate taking a 10% tithe, neither an offering from the Church “Living Body of Christ” to build these edifices that are “incorrectly” named the Church. There are multitudes of people in these buildings, but they are “not” in the true and living body - Church of Jesus Christ.
What an amazing thing that a pastor/pastors are collecting money from “his” members to build a million/millions of dollars facility but, there are members of “his” congregation sleeping in their cars, in the parking lot of the building-church. Not only that, but there are people who are destitute, yes without their physical needs being meet but, even more serious than that is their “spiritual” needs are being neglected.
“Truly” the time is approaching “rapidly” in the United State of America “when” the true church of Jesus Christ “will be persecuted ‘jailed, tortured, and killed” for taking a stand for the true and living JESUS.
The ecumenical church of today is already in compromise with the world, and the world has received them. They are “tares” sown by the emery “devil” amounts the “wheat” which are the children of the Kingdom of God. But ye shall know them by their fruit.
In the Love of Jesus Christ,
Deb
Melvin’s Note: Deb- I think we are in violent agreement. I was answering your question to me about why I would meet in a facility other than a home. I agree the Church will fall into persecution just as most of the Church around the world. Then the American Church will again meet in homes, by the riverside, and where ever else we can gather without drawing the attention of the authroities.