Ladies and Gentlemen,
I need you help.
It appears that whenever I wander into a subject like the security of the believer, I get somewhat inundated by folks who keep saying the same thing over and over again. I’m starting to find the repetition boring.
What do you think? Should I continue to address each of the comments publicly? It’s not really the purpose of the site and, as I said, they are rather boring in their repetitiveness. I have three rather repetitious comments from Gil and his buddies.
What do you say? Non-inputs from you (and I can see the IP address you send from) will be taken as a vote to drop the discussion after one more posting. If, on the other hand, some of you are benefiting from the discussion, I am willing to continue.
Hi Melvin
Its your site … Do as you please!!
As for my “buddies”.. I cant speak for them
I believe the comments are in response looking around your site from your own comments.
As I close, again I am saddened by your somwhat at best casual responses.. I suppose that is to be expected when one doesnt have a scripture to stand on.
bro Gil
1 Corinthians 5:4 - In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ when ye are gathered together and my spirit with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 5:5 - To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the “flesh” that the “spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Paul is speaking to the Corinthian “body of Christ” dealing with a situation of sin in the camp “fornication”. Apparently the “brother” has his dad’s wife. Paul in the authority of Christ advised the church to deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the “flesh” that his spirit may be “saved” in the day of the Lord Jesus.
This is the physical death of this man “destruction of the flesh”, not spiritual death “that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus”.
In the love of Christ Jesus,
Deb
You could debate all day with these people over something they firmly believe. I say shake the dust from your feet and move on, you covered the topic pretty well. Its hard to argue with people or convince them when they enter with preconceived notions about scripture and no exegesis.
Keep the articles and comments up for future reference though or maybe archive them!
Hello Deb
What kind of “eternal security” are you trying to teach?
Is it one that teaches that a christian “CANNOT” sin and if one sins he/she was never a christian to start with?
Or are you saying that the above man if he died in the midst of his fornication he would not only remain in God’s Kingdom and upon physical death enter Heaven as a saint? I believe the Bible teaches “all can sin”, but we “must not sin”!
Gil
Melvin’s Note: In keeping with the effort to present the information as fairly as possible, and to let you see the craziness that’s out there, I have included everything this commenter says and I have included the websites he references. Pay attention and remember that no one can take you out of the Father’s hand. And while you are at it, see if you can spot some of his circular arguments and assumptions. I won’t be grading on the curve!
As a lover of God’s word, this is a very interesting and important subject to debate. This is the most important discussion I’ve ever seen featured on Melvin’s website!! I’m glad to see God opening eyes and using a few folks who’ve responded. In fairness, BOTH sides should be allowed to express themselves. Site reviewers deserve a right to draw their own conclusions based on the submitted arguments.
MY OBSERVATIONS:
─The “Once Saved Always Saved” proponents have not said or shown anything that would contend with the arguments in the initial comment. (see PDF file under the “Once Saved–Sometimes Saved” section of the home page.)
─Melvin’s comments were empty and without substance. His allegations and carnal insults were unwarranted.
─The comments in the initial posting (against “Once Saved Always Saved”) were fairly good. The document was incomplete to the extent that there’s a lot more scripture passages that teach against “Once Saved Always Saved” doctrine. I didn’t notice any interpretation errors.
**I find it amazing how Christians can be so “blinded” that they ignore the huge amount of scripture passages refuting “Once Saved Always Saved”. But those who are blinded and can’t see TRUTH will make false accusations against the challengers. This is a typical reaction of OSAS proponents. Some Christians don’t want to give up their fleshly and carnal ways. So they make various excuses to avoid considering truth.
─Melvin, Deb, and AJK’s scriptures were the typical misinterpreted and misused scriptures given by “Once Saved Always Saved” proponents.
I can only hope that none of y’all are ministers. Scriptures have to be tested and proven against others. If interpreted properly, the scriptures used by Deb, AJK, and Melvin do NOT show proof of “Once Saved Always Saved”. For more details, visit the following websites:
http://www.biblical-theology.com/security/ues.htm
http://www.geocities.com/1christlover/OSAS-Corrections.html
http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/1cor55.htm (1 Corinthians 5:5)
http://www.truthmagazine.com/archives/volume25/TM025102.htm (apostasy)
Regarding 1 Corinthians 5:5, the actual scripture text reads “…..that his spirit MAY be saved…”. The word “may” is an auxiliary verb that denotes possibility. The scripture did NOT say the man “will be” saved. His actual salvation was a possibility NOT a guarantee. **”Once Saved Always Saved” proponents frequently interpret scriptures without recognizing WORDS that can affect the actual meaning of the scripture passage.
In addition to this error, Deb failed to TEST her scripture against other bible passages. Perhaps she was unaware of the “Scripture Test for Doctrine” guidelines.
***Here’s the TEST that should be applied to every scripture passage used for doctrine:
Test # 1—Can the scripture interpretation be contradicted by other passages in the bible? (In other words: Does your scripture interpretation cause the verse to conflict other bible passages?)
Test # 2—Is the scripture interpreted in a way that contradicts the main teachings of Jesus Christ as related to the topic?
If there’s a “yes” answer to any one of these questions, the selected passage was applied INCORRECTLY. The scripture was misused to support a doctrine or argument. Why? God can not lie by contradicting Himself. The scriptures used by Deb, AJK, Melvin, and other OSAS proponents require a “yes” answer to both Test Questions. Their scriptures can not pass the “Scripture Test for Doctrine” guidelines.
Based on the submitted responses, “Once Saved Always Saved” was adequately proven to be a FALSE doctrine and heresy. So I challenge every reader of this debate to very carefully review the scriptures submitted in opposition to the “Once Saved Always Saved” doctrine and TEST the scriptures.
May the truth and will of GOD be revealed IF this dilemma continues!!
**For additional reading, visit the following websites:
http://matthew.crossmap.net/~eternald/main.htm
http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/notsaved.htm
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Farm/1241/OSAS.html
Hello Deb
1. What kind of “eternal security” are you trying to teach?
Deb’s Answer: Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light.
Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the powers of darkness and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son. 2. Is it one that teaches that a christian “CANNOT” sin and if one sins he/she was never a christian to start with? I believe the Bible teaches “all can sin”, but we “must not sin”!
Deb’s Answer: 1 John 2:1 My little children these things write I unto you that ye “sin not”. And “if any man sin”, we have an advocate with the Father Jesus Christ the righteous.
1 John 2:2 And He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for our’s only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3. Or are you saying that the above man if he died in the midst of his fornication he would not only remain in God’s Kingdom and upon physical death enter Heaven as a saint?
Deb’ Answer: Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you “all” manner of sin and blasphemy shall be “forgiven” unto men. But the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
In my study of (1 Corinthians 5:1-5), The Apostel Paul in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ admonishes the Church to deliver such a one (who has his dad’s wife) unto Satan for the destruction of the “flesh” that the “spirit” may be “saved” in the day of the Lord Jesus.
For me to say that this man died and entered into hell would be the same as speaking against the Holy Ghost.
The Word of God has declared “deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the “flesh” that the “spirt” may be “saved” in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Important: Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall “not” be forgiven him neither in this world, neither the world to come.
In the love of Jesus Christ,
Deb
Gil
Once Saved Always Saved are which thing also we speak not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheths; comparing spritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him. Neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN!
In the love of Jesus Christ,
Deb
Melvin,
I didn’t read the entire set of references but I did read the following paragraph.
John 3:36 - “He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”. ~ Note: This obviously is true, but some people don’t know what the word for believe means. One of the things it means is be committed unto. Therefore, this believing in Jesus Christ is not a one-time deal and it’s all over with. You must be committed unto Him or else you are no longer a believer. To believe also means used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul. That means when we believe in Jesus Christ, His power within us drives us to have a distinctively superior advantage of having our souls obey His moral law. But a Christian can stop believing. A Christian can wind up no longer committted unto Christ. For some have already turned aside after Satan - 1 Tim. 5:15.
This is what I mentioned in my previous e mail. A person may call himself a Christian but has not truly committed to the Lordship of Christ. That person wasn’t initially saved to begin with. I’ve debated this issue with many persons who believe they can lose their salvation, and the truth of scripture seldom convicts them of the truth. Jesus explains this fully in Matthew chapter 7. The more I read scripture I honestly believe that few will enter the narrow gate. That’s why I am seriously convicted to “Work out my salvation with fear and trembling.”
W.O.G. made a 2900 word comment. It was amazing (and tedious) to watch him say the same things over and over again. They were:
1. OSAS is not right because it’s wrong
2. OSAS encourages people to live any kind of way and expect to be okay with God
3. OSAS is a lie from hell
He spent almost three thousand words repeating himself over and over again.
I was amazed and at least impressed with his persistence if not his understanding. The poor schlepp - now he’ll probably go through life trying to earn his salvation and continuously feeling insecure. Afterall, how much do I have to sin before I actually lose my salvation. It’s interesting that none of the nattering legalists ever addressed that.
Melvin